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oldmanintheskydidntdoit Posts: 4999 Joined: July 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,13:09    Quote (FloydLee @ Sep. 14 2009,12:58) in light of the very heavy incompatibilities I'll be presenting and documenting later today. FloydLee, A simple question. Is it only Christianity that evolution is incompatible with? -------------- I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies". FTK if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand Gordon Mullings

Erasmus, FCD Posts: 6349 Joined: June 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,13:12    prediction:  FL will use this thread as an excuse to avoid or ignore the other one.  looking forward to straw scotsmen! -------------- You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

FloydLee Posts: 577 Joined: Sep. 2009 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,13:13    Quote ....the generalization "evolution is incompatible with all forms of Christianity" is so obviously wrong Is it so obviously wrong?  Is it really, Sledgehammer? You know, over at CARM, I keep on asking the resident evolutionists to please offer me a Bible-supported, and rationally-supported, version of "Christianity" that evolution as currently taught is clearly compatible with. Been asking them for years, quite literally.  I sincerely want to hear about and critically examine this alleged alternative version of Christianity. But they can't deliver the goods.  Every time, they wind up having to back off.  (Seems the Bible just won't co-operate with them or something.) That's one reason why I'm happy to have this opportunity within this forum.  In the course of this debate, I intend to ask you guys and gals the same sincere request, both the resident Christians and the resident non-Christians.   Maybe I'll have more luck this time, with you guys and gals.  We'll see.  (PS....I don't believe in luck.)

FloydLee Posts: 577 Joined: Sep. 2009 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,13:40    Quote Is it only Christianity that evolution is incompatible with? I don't know.  Honestly haven't done a survey of world religions on that particular question.   However, evolution IS compatible with the religion of deism (and I'll be discussing that a little more in today's response to Deadman within the main debate thread), but what you evolutionists are publicly trying to sell to everybody is the claim that evolution is compatible with Christianity, specifically.  Not deism, but Christianity. So debunking that particular evo-claim of "compatibility" is an emergency priority.   After all, one cannot maintain good health by drinking battery acid---in fact it will have the opposite effect.  Likewise, American Christianity cannot maintain its health by drinking "The Universal Acid" -- evolution.  We are all seeing the said opposite effect taking place even now within American Christianity.   ******           Quote prediction:  FL will use this thread as an excuse to avoid or ignore the other one. You wish I would baby, but all yo' little wishin's are in vain.  The field is in play and now your choices are to step up, step off, or just plain git run over anyway!   Just make sure YOU don't disappear on ME, either in this thread or the main debate thread.  I'll be listening for your considered responses Erasmus.

oldmanintheskydidntdoit Posts: 4999 Joined: July 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,13:40    Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Sep. 14 2009,13:09)   Quote (FloydLee @ Sep. 14 2009,12:58) in light of the very heavy incompatibilities I'll be presenting and documenting later today. FloydLee, A simple question. Is it only Christianity that evolution is incompatible with? ?? -------------- I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies". FTK if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand Gordon Mullings

ppb Posts: 325 Joined: Dec. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,13:40    FL; Evolution may indeed be incompatible with your understanding of Christianity based on your interpretation of the Bible.  So what!  Other Christians disagree, obviously.   As has been pointed out to you many times by many others, the validity of evolutionary theory is not affected by your views on Christianity.  I personally am not interested in discussions on theology.  I prefer sticking with the science. -------------- "[A scientific theory] describes Nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And it agrees fully with experiment. So I hope you can accept Nature as She is - absurd." - Richard P. Feynman

SLP Posts: 136 Joined: Dec. 2002 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,13:43    Quote (FloydLee @ Sep. 14 2009,12:58) Quote Quote FL has his opinion, and he will not be persuaded otherwise, as years of interaction have shown. And I can say the exact same thing about you, Dr. Elsberry, based on reading your PT posts for years likewise.   You presuppose that the material you've presented has merit and is worthy of being considered in-depth. Your 'argument' style is absolutely child-like - you have your heroes who can do no wrogn, you have your choice (often doctored or otherwise inaccurate) quotes form individuals that you then claim are the ultimate experts/authorities, and you refuse to yield an inch when shown that you should be a mile back. That the Dunning-Kruger dogma in you. Quote In fact, I would be very highly surprised if anybody in this forum confessed at all to being "persuaded otherwise" from their current position, after being presented with the facts and reasonings that I intend to offer, as well as the counter-responses from Deadman and other posters. I would, too, considering the quality of your arguments. I have personally had the opportunity to delve into your position statements, quote mongering, hero worship, and repetitious regurgiposting, and I have that you are immune to acknowledging error. You simply ignore refutations of your position, wait  few weeks or months, then make the same claims all over again. Frankly, I don't care if evolution is incompatible with your version of Christianity. I would imagine that there are any number of real-life phenomena that are.  Of course, being incompatible with Branze-Age mythology is not rationale to dismiss evidence, unless, of course, one is not actually interested in the truth.

fusilier Posts: 252 Joined: Feb. 2003 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,13:44    Quote (FloydLee @ Sep. 14 2009,14:13) Quote ....the generalization "evolution is incompatible with all forms of Christianity" is so obviously wrong Is it so obviously wrong?  Is it really, Sledgehammer? You know, over at CARM, I keep on asking the resident evolutionists to please offer me a Bible-supported, and rationally-supported, version of "Christianity" that evolution as currently taught is clearly compatible with. Been asking them for years, quite literally.  I sincerely want to hear about and critically examine this alleged alternative version of Christianity. But they can't deliver the goods.  Every time, they wind up having to back off.  (Seems the Bible just won't co-operate with them or something.) That's one reason why I'm happy to have this opportunity within this forum.  In the course of this debate, I intend to ask you guys and gals the same sincere request, both the resident Christians and the resident non-Christians.   Maybe I'll have more luck this time, with you guys and gals.  We'll see.  (PS....I don't believe in luck.) And, contrary to your lying claim, many of us (ergaster, ah_mini, glad_to_be_saved, omar)* and I have presented you with such.  Thing is, you have a prooftext mentality, and your personal, idiosyncratic literalist interpretation is unable to cope with those demonstrations. Hell, if Jesus His Very Self were to come and tell you that Descent with Modification is how Hedidit, you'd deny Him three times before the cock crowed. OBTW, are you really black, or do you just post argumentum per bolds, phony hip-hop slang, and ~weird punctuation~ in order to make yourself look cool for the youth ministry**? *all CARM screen-names **ht to SLP for the conclusion -------------- fusilier James 2:24

Erasmus, FCD Posts: 6349 Joined: June 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,13:46    Quote (FloydLee @ Sep. 14 2009,14:13) Quote ....the generalization "evolution is incompatible with all forms of Christianity" is so obviously wrong Is it so obviously wrong?  Is it really, Sledgehammer? You know, over at CARM, I keep on asking the resident evolutionists to please offer me a Bible-supported, and rationally-supported, version of "Christianity" that evolution as currently taught is clearly compatible with. Been asking them for years, quite literally.  I sincerely want to hear about and critically examine this alleged alternative version of Christianity. But they can't deliver the goods.  Every time, they wind up having to back off.  (Seems the Bible just won't co-operate with them or something.) That's one reason why I'm happy to have this opportunity within this forum.  In the course of this debate, I intend to ask you guys and gals the same sincere request, both the resident Christians and the resident non-Christians.   Maybe I'll have more luck this time, with you guys and gals.  We'll see.  (PS....I don't believe in luck.) so far i am correct! -------------- You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

Erasmus, FCD Posts: 6349 Joined: June 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,13:50    Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Sep. 14 2009,14:40) Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Sep. 14 2009,13:09)   Quote (FloydLee @ Sep. 14 2009,12:58) in light of the very heavy incompatibilities I'll be presenting and documenting later today. FloydLee, A simple question. Is it only Christianity that evolution is incompatible with? ?? yes or no.  all you have to know is one example to say No. -------------- You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

dheddle Posts: 545 Joined: Sep. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,14:05    FloydLee,   Quote You know, over at CARM, I keep on asking the resident evolutionists to please offer me a Bible-supported, and rationally-supported, version of "Christianity" that evolution as currently taught is clearly compatible with. You are, it seems to me, taking the opposite if incompatible to be "supports". It is not. The manual for my 2003 Honda Element is compatible with evolutionary theory and with the bible. (One is tempted, then, to invoke transitivity.) I am curious: how do you reconcile your fear that evolution can destroy saving faith (I am assuming that is an accurate rephrasing of what you wrote—correct me if not) with passages such as:   Quote My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. (John 10:29) and   Quote because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world. (1 John 4:4) (Just to take a couple) If evolution can threaten the faith of a believer, then a believer can be snatched, contra John 10:29, and something is greater than he who is within—since, after all, he has promised that none will be snatched. I'm guessing I could never agree with your interpretation of the bible. You are too much of a liberal for my tastes. -------- EDIT: MOAT (mother of all typos) -------------- Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

Leftfield Posts: 107 Joined: Nov. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,14:07    Quote (FloydLee @ Sep. 14 2009,13:13) .... I keep on asking the resident evolutionists to please offer me a Bible-supported, and rationally-supported, version of "Christianity" that evolution as currently taught is clearly compatible with. ... But they can't deliver the goods. Shocking. And has anyone been able to provide a "rationally-supported" version of Christianity of some other sort? -------------- Speaking for myself, I have long been confused . . .-Denyse O'Leary

Stephen Elliott Posts: 1776 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,14:41    Quote (Louis @ Sep. 14 2009,13:05) Welcome back Steve BTW. Are you well? Louis Cheers Louis, I went away from this site for a fair while due to being sick. Sick to fuckin death of creationist lying. Been lurking for a few months now. I see you have had a fair few changes recently. Congrats! You look tired, have a seat. The sad thing about this debate is that I am pretty sure that all the regulars here can predict how it is going to proceed with remarkable accuracy. A fair few already have. We fired our truths and the creo's kept a'comin. There was just as many as there was a while ago. We fired once more and they began to runnin' on Down to the places where the truth just wouldn't go. Apologies.

deadman_932 Posts: 3094 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,14:58    Quote (sledgehammer @ Sep. 14 2009,12:55)  I'm surprised that you next plan to argue that "ID is science".  Seems like first you must answer the question "Is ID compatible with Christianity", since  by your apparent definition of Christianity, it would seem that the answer is "No".  Even Baptist Dembski and Catholic Behe argue that ID is compatible with the science of evolution.  Where does that leave you? FL stated that "Evolution is incompatible with Christianity." Period. No qualifiers. Given that Behe and Dembski both accept that differing degrees of evolutionary change have already occurred, that would seem to indicate that both are also not Christians. Yet they would (and do) say otherwise. Interesting point, or as interesting as it gets in this dismal little exercise. -------------- AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

Wolfhound Posts: 468 Joined: June 2008 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,15:24    Quote (dheddle @ Sep. 14 2009,15:05) The manual for my 2003 Honda Element...<snip> Okay, totally OT, but I have to pipe up that my dogshowmobile is also a 2003 Element.  Love that ugly box.  :) -------------- I've found my personality to be an effective form of birth control.

Jasper Posts: 76 Joined: Mar. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,15:28    Quote (dheddle @ Sep. 14 2009,15:05)   Quote I'm guessing I could never agree with your interpretation of the bible. You are too much of a liberal for my tastes. Now, that is funny.   :D

JohnK Posts: 13 Joined: Mar. 2009 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,15:29    Quote (FloydLee @ Sep. 14 2009,13:13)     Quote ....the generalization "evolution is incompatible with all forms of Christianity" is so obviously wrong I sincerely want to hear about and critically examine this alleged alternative version of Christianity. (Seems the Bible just won't co-operate with them or something.) There it is - not even one "alternate version" of christianity, only FL's version. No alternate interpretations of the Bible, only FL's One True Interpretation. Although some suspected FL would be more coy, the debate ends quickly. But after years of discussion with fuselier et al on CARM, and well aware of entire books by Miller, Haught, Conway Morris, Collins, etc. -- everyone does have to admit that FL's "I sincerely want to hear..." is the nicest touch of utterly phony bullshit.

ppb Posts: 325 Joined: Dec. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,15:34    Sorry Heddle, but your Honda Element is clearly incompatible with the Bible.  The Scriptures clearly state that the disciples were together in one Accord.  :) Edited by Lou FCD on Sep. 14 2009,19:48 -------------- "[A scientific theory] describes Nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And it agrees fully with experiment. So I hope you can accept Nature as She is - absurd." - Richard P. Feynman

Louis Posts: 6436 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,15:38    Quote (ppb @ Sep. 14 2009,21:34) Sorry Heddle, but your Honda Element is clearly incompatible with the Bible.  The Scriptures clearly state that the disciples were together in one Accord.  :) POTW* You win the thread. Louis *For at least 45 mins. -------------- Bye.

deadman_932 Posts: 3094 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,15:49    Quote (ppb @ Sep. 14 2009,15:34) Sorry Heddle, but your Honda Element is clearly incompatible with the Bible.  The Scriptures clearly state that the disciples were together in one Accord.  :) Whoa, whoa, whoa...Heddle drives a Honda? What, is he some kinda COMMIE? You're damn close to gettin' your NASCAR card revoked, mister. pps:  POTW (for an hour) seconded. -------------- AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

Louis Posts: 6436 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,15:53    Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Sep. 14 2009,20:41) Quote (Louis @ Sep. 14 2009,13:05) Welcome back Steve BTW. Are you well? Louis Cheers Louis, I went away from this site for a fair while due to being sick. Sick to fuckin death of creationist lying. Been lurking for a few months now. I see you have had a fair few changes recently. Congrats! You look tired, have a seat. :D The sad thing about this debate is that I am pretty sure that all the regulars here can predict how it is going to proceed with remarkable accuracy. A fair few already have. We fired our truths and the creo's kept a'comin. There was just as many as there was a while ago. We fired once more and they began to runnin' on Down to the places where the truth just wouldn't go. Apologies. Thanks Steve. Knackered doesn't even begin to describe it! Yeah, this "debate" will go the standard route. I think the only thing of genuine interest is the book on when and how specific classic elements of the debate will turn up, and the ensuing drinking games and exchange of monies. Since the threats of hell came up earlier than even I expected, I'm going for our new chum to do a post #10 invocation of appeal to mystery, a post #40 flounce out and a return 3 weeks afterwards. Any dissent? Louis -------------- Bye.

ppb Posts: 325 Joined: Dec. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,15:59    Quote (Louis @ Sep. 14 2009,16:38)   Quote (ppb @ Sep. 14 2009,21:34) Sorry Heddle, but your Honda Element is clearly incompatible with the Bible.  The Scriptures clearly state that the disciples were together in one Accord.   POTW* You win the thread. Louis *For at least 45 mins. My very first POTW, and I get it with a very old and very lame joke.  Mom will be so proud! -------------- "[A scientific theory] describes Nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And it agrees fully with experiment. So I hope you can accept Nature as She is - absurd." - Richard P. Feynman

deadman_932 Posts: 3094 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,16:02    Quote (Louis @ Sep. 14 2009,15:53) Since the threats of hell came up earlier than even I expected, I'm going for our new chum to do a post #10 invocation of appeal to mystery, a post #40 flounce out and a return 3 weeks afterwards. Any dissent? Louis Tease. You know there can be no dissent within the EvoBorg. -------------- AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

Dan Posts: 77 Joined: Sep. 2009 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,16:07    My thoughts on FL's first post: There are many reasons one might be a Christian -- here are a few I though of right off hand:  for social interactions, for the purity of one's soul, to support good works, to expand the good part of one's own personality, to attend confession, to make friends, to make business connections, to insure the immortality of one's soul, to insure that you will meet your deceased spouse in the afterlife, in expectation of answered prayer, to provide a moor of stability during difficult times, to make sure you have a place for a nice church wedding, to explain the laws of physics, to explain the origin of life, to explain the diversity of living things, to find a sanctuary of calm in a turbulent world, to support great art, to feed one's feeling of the spiritual, to support environmental stewardship, to oppose war, to support social justice, to connect with one's personal history, to connect with one's national heritage, to connect with a world heritage, to be part of a group supporting something larger than one's self. A knowledge of evolution removes, at very most, only one of those reasons: "to explain the diversity of living things". I imagine that for most people this is a non-reason or very minor reason for being a Christian.  Suppose you handed out a survey to Christians listing all these reasons and more.  How many do you think would check: "I am a Christian because I want to explain the diversity of living things"? I have not done this, but I can't imagine that more than 0.2% of all Christians hold their faith because they want their faith to explain the diversity of living things.  If my hunch is correct, then only 0.2% of all Christians are at risk of losing their faith due to knowledge of evolution.  Perhaps that's why, even with all his distortions, FL could find only four examples of "loss of faith due to evolution".

csadams Posts: 124 Joined: June 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,16:13    Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Sep. 14 2009,14:41) Cheers Louis, I went away from this site for a fair while due to being sick. Sick to fuckin death of creationist lying. Agreed.  There seems to come a point at which the anti-evolutionists' lies and quote-mines and serpentine syllogisms just saturate my soul and begins to suck it down into a black hole.  That (and the question of theodicy) form the acid which corrodes faith. Sadly, the actions of some of those who call themselves Christians have caused 3 teenagers I know of to declare themselves atheist or agnostic.  Evolution had nothing to do with it, according to them!  Try as I might to persuade the kids that these extremists aren't representative of the rank-and-file, they're sickened at the mendacity and manipulation they see practiced by these so-called leaders of faith. Even more tragically, I see first-hand the results of kids ignoring reality, when they think their bodies are immune to the laws of physics so they don't need to bother wearing their seatbelts.  Do they think that God will protect them from being ejected from the vehicle?  Did they ever think that maybe, just maybe, God might have been that still small voice in the seat belt designer's ear? So Floyd, the only factor I've personally witnessed corroding bodies and souls is one you unfortunately exhibit:  distorting reality in the name of 'faith.' The really good news is that the proportion of Christian clergy who support evolution (that is, those who've signed on to the Clergy Letter Project) is 2600 times greater than the proportion of biologists who reject evolution. The 11,000 signees of the Clergy Letter Project represent about 3% of the ministers in the U.S. About 104 biologists from the U.S. - of a possible 955,300 - signed the "Dissent from Darwinism" statement; an impressively underwhelming 0.01%. What does it mean when evolution has more support among clergy than it has dissent among biologists? -------------- Stand Up For REAL Science!

Louis Posts: 6436 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,16:21    Quote (ppb @ Sep. 14 2009,21:59) Quote (Louis @ Sep. 14 2009,16:38)     Quote (ppb @ Sep. 14 2009,21:34) Sorry Heddle, but your Honda Element is clearly incompatible with the Bible.  The Scriptures clearly state that the disciples were together in one Accord.  :) POTW* You win the thread. Louis *For at least 45 mins. My very first POTW, and I get it with a very old and very lame joke.  Mom will be so proud! :D Get away with an old lame joke? Sorry but have you seen any new, non-lame jokes around here? Old and lame jokes are what we pride ourselves upon dammit! Speaking of old and lame, {insert AtBC member of choice's name}, it's time for Matlock. Louis -------------- Bye.

dheddle Posts: 545 Joined: Sep. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,16:22    Quote (ppb @ Sep. 14 2009,15:34) Sorry Heddle, but your Honda Element is clearly incompatible with the Bible.  The Scriptures clearly state that the disciples were together in one Accord.  :) POTW -- that is hilarious! -------------- Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

Louis Posts: 6436 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,16:22    Quote (deadman_932 @ Sep. 14 2009,22:02) Quote (Louis @ Sep. 14 2009,15:53) Since the threats of hell came up earlier than even I expected, I'm going for our new chum to do a post #10 invocation of appeal to mystery, a post #40 flounce out and a return 3 weeks afterwards. Any dissent? Louis Tease. You know there can be no dissent within the EvoBorg. One of us. One of us. One of us.... Louis -------------- Bye.

JohnW Posts: 3217 Joined: Aug. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,17:03    Quote (ppb @ Sep. 14 2009,13:59) Quote (Louis @ Sep. 14 2009,16:38)     Quote (ppb @ Sep. 14 2009,21:34) Sorry Heddle, but your Honda Element is clearly incompatible with the Bible.  The Scriptures clearly state that the disciples were together in one Accord.  :) POTW* You win the thread. Louis *For at least 45 mins. My very first POTW, and I get it with a very old and very lame joke.  Mom will be so proud! :D Given the amount of sleep Louis is getting, I thought it was pretty good.* * Which is exactly what Arden's mum said. -------------- Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

Reed Posts: 274 Joined: Feb. 2008 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,17:24    Quote (deadman_932 @ Sep. 14 2009,12:58) FL stated that "Evolution is incompatible with Christianity." Period. No qualifiers. Given that Behe and Dembski both accept that differing degrees of evolutionary change have already occurred, that would seem to indicate that both are also not Christians. Yet they would (and do) say otherwise. Interesting point, or as interesting as it gets in this dismal little exercise. Even most of the loony YECs admit to "microevolution". In fact many (Ken Ham for example) have evolution from the original "kinds" on the ark to present diversity happening unrealistically fast. If you can go from original "canid kind" to dogs, wolves, coyotes and foxes (!) in 4000 years, it's hard to see what the objection would be to an original hominid "kind" diverging into chimps and humans over a period more than a thousand times longer. ETA: If FL were actually interested dialog (yeah right), he'd do well to define what he means by evolution and christian up front.

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