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  Topic: Swansea or Edinbourough?, Question for Brits< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 15 2008,14:44   

Yo J-Dog,

Oooh, ooh, I know, I know, you could give them a poster of the Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy!

Who wouldn't want that, 'specialy in the land of John Knox!

Diya ken what I mean?

-------
Edit to add links. Edited again to fix typos.

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 15 2008,14:47   

Quote (J-Dog @ Aug. 15 2008,14:37)
Thanks to all for the comments - my daughter decided to go to Edinburgh, not Swansea, and she leaves in early September.

So, NOW, I got MORE questions! -

During part of her time in Scotland, she will be placed with a Scottish family, and will be expected to give the family a "small gift", usually representing something form her university or city.

WTF?  

So, what would a Family of Scots want from an American student from Chicago?  I mean, other than money?

It's got to be small, they recommend taking only 2 suitcases, and my first idea was a Chicago Cubs baseball cap or caps, BUT I don't even know if they wear baseball caps in Scotland!

What do you all think might be appropriate and appreciated, given the parameters I outlined?

Albatrossity - You were just there - what's the story with using an American Laptop battery charger in GB?  (Yes, she does have a circuit converter.)

lappys should be fine and the power jammy thing even does both voltages - you just need an adaptor plug. Watching DVDs on it will be different - see if you can get region free frimware.


Send the family some toothpaste and hair dye so they can have good teeth and 'not look like ginger twats'. This will go down amazingly well

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 15 2008,14:52   

Quote (J-Dog @ Aug. 15 2008,14:37)
During part of her time in Scotland, she will be placed with a Scottish family, and will be expected to give the family a "small gift", usually representing something form her university or city.

WTF?  

So, what would a Family of Scots want from an American student from Chicago?  I mean, other than money?

How about a bottle or two of good bourbon, so they can taste a real whiskey?

*ducks*

--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 15 2008,14:55   

Quote (carlsonjok @ Aug. 15 2008,14:52)
Quote (J-Dog @ Aug. 15 2008,14:37)
During part of her time in Scotland, she will be placed with a Scottish family, and will be expected to give the family a "small gift", usually representing something form her university or city.

WTF?  

So, what would a Family of Scots want from an American student from Chicago?  I mean, other than money?

How about a bottle or two of good bourbon, so they can taste a real whiskey?

*ducks*

Bourbon is for cooking with.

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 15 2008,14:57   

Quote (Richardthughes @ Aug. 15 2008,14:47)
Send the family some toothpaste and hair dye so they can have good teeth and 'not look like ginger twats'. This will go down amazingly well

Dammit Hughes!  That was a Keyboard Buster...

Heddle - Ummm... not sure about the churchy thing... Got any NASCAR ideas? (and I  hate NASCAR...)

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 15 2008,15:08   

Quote (J-Dog @ Aug. 15 2008,20:37)
Thanks to all for the comments - my daughter decided to go to Edinburgh, not Swansea, and she leaves in early September.

So, NOW, I got MORE questions! -

During part of her time in Scotland, she will be placed with a Scottish family, and will be expected to give the family a "small gift", usually representing something form her university or city.

WTF?  

So, what would a Family of Scots want from an American student from Chicago?  I mean, other than money?

It's got to be small, they recommend taking only 2 suitcases, and my first idea was a Chicago Cubs baseball cap or caps, BUT I don't even know if they wear baseball caps in Scotland!

What do you all think might be appropriate and appreciated, given the parameters I outlined?

Albatrossity - You were just there - what's the story with using an American Laptop battery charger in GB?  (Yes, she does have a circuit converter.)

They wear baseball caps in Scotland. Usually whilst committing some form of crime. But that's Scots for you!

I'm think University branded alcohol is the way to go. ;-)

Failing that, get her to pick up a few cans of Special Brew and write "Chicago" in place of "Carlsberg" with a magic marker. Again, I'm sure you already know this, but as the drinking age in Scotland is 18 (well, officially it is), alcohol is actually an appropriate gift.

What would you give another American family under similar circumstances? It's not a massively dissimilar cultural situation.

Of course hangovers and chlamydia are the gifts traditionally associated with Scotland....but I'd save those for a second date.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 15 2008,15:28   

Quote (J-Dog @ Aug. 15 2008,14:57)
   
Quote (Richardthughes @ Aug. 15 2008,14:47)
Send the family some toothpaste and hair dye so they can have good teeth and 'not look like ginger twats'. This will go down amazingly well

Dammit Hughes!  That was a Keyboard Buster...

Heddle - Ummm... not sure about the churchy thing... Got any NASCAR ideas? (and I  hate NASCAR...)


Well, now that you mention it, there is, in Reformed circles, a well-known photo of John Knox enjoying a brewski at Chicagoland Speedway. Get a nice frame, perhaps something made from the bones of an Englishman, and that'd make a snappy gift.



Edit: typo (again!)

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 15 2008,15:39   

Quote (dheddle @ Aug. 15 2008,15:28)
Quote (J-Dog @ Aug. 15 2008,14:57)
   
Quote (Richardthughes @ Aug. 15 2008,14:47)
Send the family some toothpaste and hair dye so they can have good teeth and 'not look like ginger twats'. This will go down amazingly well

Dammit Hughes!  That was a Keyboard Buster...

Heddle - Ummm... not sure about the churchy thing... Got any NASCAR ideas? (and I  hate NASCAR...)


Well, now that you mention it, there is, in Reformed circles, a well-known photo of John Knox enjoying a brewski at Chicagoland Speedway. Get a nice frame, pehaps something made from the bones of an Englishman, and that'd make a snappy gift.


Heddle - Beautiful artwork!   I can see that you are indeed a multi-talented renaissance man.

Louis: You said "What would you give another American family under similar circumstances? It's not a massively dissimilar cultural situation. "

So, the Scottish - American Dictionary is a bad idea?

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Peter Henderson



Posts: 298
Joined: Aug. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 15 2008,15:49   

Quote
It's got to be small, they recommend taking only 2 suitcases, and my first idea was a Chicago Cubs baseball cap or caps, BUT I don't even know if they wear baseball caps in Scotland!


The Police Service of Northern Ireland do in fact wear baseball caps while on duty (it's part of their uniform belive it or not).

Bourbon sounds fine, so long as the family aren't religious (evangelical Protestant) in which case they might not appreciate it.

Other than baseball and 1930's gangsters J-dog, what else is Chicago famous for ?

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 15 2008,15:51   

Quote (Peter Henderson @ Aug. 15 2008,15:49)
Other than baseball and 1930's gangsters J-dog, what else is Chicago famous for ?

The Fig Newton of Information Theory went to school here.

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 15 2008,15:52   

Quote (J-Dog @ Aug. 15 2008,14:37)
Albatrossity - You were just there - what's the story with using an American Laptop battery charger in GB?  (Yes, she does have a circuit converter.)

Most AC adapters for most computers, phones, iPods and other electronic devices are dual-voltage (work with 110 or 220 V). Take a look at the adapters to verify this, but almost all of them will be fine without any need for a voltage step-down.  

So all she needs are the plug adapters to enable her to plug her American-type plugs into those silly three-prong thingies in the UK. She should take at least two or three of these if she is the typical American teenager with many electronic devices that need recharging on a regular basis.

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
PsychoAtheist



Posts: 7
Joined: Feb. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 15 2008,16:21   

Quote (J-Dog @ Aug. 15 2008,14:37)
Thanks to all for the comments - my daughter decided to go to Edinburgh, not Swansea, and she leaves in early September.

So, NOW, I got MORE questions! -

During part of her time in Scotland, she will be placed with a Scottish family, and will be expected to give the family a "small gift", usually representing something form her university or city.

WTF?  

So, what would a Family of Scots want from an American student from Chicago?  I mean, other than money?

It's got to be small, they recommend taking only 2 suitcases, and my first idea was a Chicago Cubs baseball cap or caps, BUT I don't even know if they wear baseball caps in Scotland!

What do you all think might be appropriate and appreciated, given the parameters I outlined?

Albatrossity - You were just there - what's the story with using an American Laptop battery charger in GB?  (Yes, she does have a circuit converter.)

Cubs baseball hats should be fine.  Being Scottish they will understand that you, as an American, have no real culture to speak of anyway.  ;)

Congrats to your daughter on choosing Edinburgh by the way.  The university is excellent and the city has much to offer, I can recommend just about all of the pubs in the Grassmarkets!

   
Jake



Posts: 50
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 15 2008,17:40   

Quote (J-Dog @ Aug. 15 2008,14:37)
Thanks to all for the comments - my daughter decided to go to Edinburgh, not Swansea, and she leaves in early September.

So, NOW, I got MORE questions! -

During part of her time in Scotland, she will be placed with a Scottish family, and will be expected to give the family a "small gift", usually representing something form her university or city.

WTF?  

So, what would a Family of Scots want from an American student from Chicago?  I mean, other than money?

It's got to be small, they recommend taking only 2 suitcases, and my first idea was a Chicago Cubs baseball cap or caps, BUT I don't even know if they wear baseball caps in Scotland!

What do you all think might be appropriate and appreciated, given the parameters I outlined?

Albatrossity - You were just there - what's the story with using an American Laptop battery charger in GB?  (Yes, she does have a circuit converter.)

I think a Cubs cap is a good idea. The Cubs are pretty famous due to flms and TV, but thats not the sort of thing that you can pick up easily in the UK. Baseball isnt really popular (soccer, rugby and cricket, mainly), but everyone wears caps :-)

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 15 2008,18:03   

Quote (J-Dog @ Aug. 15 2008,21:39)
Quote (dheddle @ Aug. 15 2008,15:28)
Quote (J-Dog @ Aug. 15 2008,14:57)
   
Quote (Richardthughes @ Aug. 15 2008,14:47)
Send the family some toothpaste and hair dye so they can have good teeth and 'not look like ginger twats'. This will go down amazingly well

Dammit Hughes!  That was a Keyboard Buster...

Heddle - Ummm... not sure about the churchy thing... Got any NASCAR ideas? (and I  hate NASCAR...)


Well, now that you mention it, there is, in Reformed circles, a well-known photo of John Knox enjoying a brewski at Chicagoland Speedway. Get a nice frame, pehaps something made from the bones of an Englishman, and that'd make a snappy gift.


Heddle - Beautiful artwork!   I can see that you are indeed a multi-talented renaissance man.

Louis: You said "What would you give another American family under similar circumstances? It's not a massively dissimilar cultural situation. "

So, the Scottish - American Dictionary is a bad idea?

Scottish-American dictionary?

You don't need that, that's what alcohol is for.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 15 2008,18:32   

Quote (Richardthughes @ Aug. 15 2008,13:51)
Quote (Peter Henderson @ Aug. 15 2008,15:49)
Other than baseball and 1930's gangsters J-dog, what else is Chicago famous for ?

The Fig Newton of Information Theory went to school here.

Jim Belushi also comes from Chicago.














*cough*

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
jeffox



Posts: 671
Joined: Oct. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 15 2008,18:37   

J-Dog, I know you asked this of the natives, but I travelled to Britain in May, 2003, and got all over the place.  I stayed in Edinbourgh for two nights, and briefly visited Swansea (the train pulled into then out of the station twice).  My perspective is that of a life-long U.S. resident who went as a traveller, not as a tourist - a bit different than the ones you asked for.

Scotland and south Wales were both very scenic.  The trains are excellent in both countries.  The people were very nice in both countries.

Edinbourgh was the busiest city that I visited on the trip.  People everywhere (especially "downtown" or in the castle/train station areas) going about their business.  Lots of traffic.  Lots to do and see, also.

South Wales (I stayed in Cardiff for two nights) was much more "sleepy"/laid back.  

Both places have a plethora of castles to visit, all within a short day-trip via any means of transportation (including walking/biking).  I had lots of fun!

A couple of things that I found the most different "over there":  
1.  The traffic is funny because the roads are very narrow and they drive on the wron, er, left side of the road.  There are no parking signs so people park everywhere.  I was surprised.  :)
2.  The main currency (the pound) is a coin, not a note.  Your daughter shouldn't be surprised if she pays for something with a 5 pound note and gets all-coin change.  Sure threw me the first time, though.  In a pub, no less.   :)
3.  Cops are nice people over there.  I found that they're not only approachable, but that they make some of the best sources of local information.
4.  TV is awful, except for sports and movies.  I saw an uncut version of Outlaw Josie Wales on their BBC movie channel when I was in Cambridge.  I watched a lot of (and fell in love with) their football.

Anyways, to make a long post shorter, I had a great time.  She should too, whichever college she chooses.  If she likes rugby, I think she'd like Edinbourgh best.  I rode on a train from there to North Berwick seated near a group of beer-drinking rugby fans/players going to a game.  Nice!  

Best of luck to her.

Anyway, J-Dog, my 14c.   :)

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 15 2008,18:54   

Thank you all for the suggestions, but as usual my better half, 2/3, 7/8, has the answer.

Frango Mints  - from what used to be Marshall Fields, now Macy's, but with a Marshal Fields Chicago box.

(see the link for all the minutia.)

Frango Mints

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Peter Henderson



Posts: 298
Joined: Aug. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 15 2008,18:59   

Quote
A couple of things that I found the most different "over there":


You'll laugh  at this jeffox:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmuPXrv4yiQ&feature=related

Still funny even after 30 years.

Shame you didn't visit Belfast though. One of the major cities in the UK.

  
jeffox



Posts: 671
Joined: Oct. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 16 2008,01:07   

I wanted to go, Pete, but the passenger ferry to Dun Loigaire (sp.) was being redone.  I would have had to pay car ferry price for a passenger ride.  :(  

Next time.  Maybe 4 nights in Dublin, 2 in Waterford, 2 in Limerick/Cork, and 3 in Belfast.  Definitely Antrim coast.  

I do have to do some research on a good hangover medicine before I go.  :)    :)    :)    :)

  
Bob O'H



Posts: 2564
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 16 2008,02:25   

Quote
So, what would a Family of Scots want from an American student from Chicago?  I mean, other than money?


Glass beads will probably be better than money - the exchange rate is better.

Edinburgh, eh?  Make sure she takes her own tea.

--------------
It is fun to dip into the various threads to watch cluelessness at work in the hands of the confident exponent. - Soapy Sam (so say we all)

   
Amadan



Posts: 1337
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 16 2008,07:41   

Around here, baseball caps usually indicate a predeliction for baseball bats, which in these parts tend to be used for percussive wealth distribution and ethnic attitude adjustment. Not to be recommended.

The chocolates sound like a good idea, but you might ask Mrs J. to see how they survive deep-frying in batter.

--------------
"People are always looking for natural selection to generate random mutations" - Densye  4-4-2011
JoeG BTW dumbass- some variations help ensure reproductive fitness so they cannot be random wrt it.

   
Peter Henderson



Posts: 298
Joined: Aug. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 16 2008,11:31   

Quote
Definitely Antrim coast


Worth seeing Jeffox. If you don't want to hire a car Ulsterbus tours do a number of daytrips usually with a very informative guide on board. Some of them take in the Giant's Causeway as well:

http://www.translink.co.uk/daytours.asp

Like most major cities in the UK there are also a number of tour buses that operate from the city centre. Both Glasgow and Edinburgh do something similar.

The shortest routes between Scotland and NI by the way, are either Larne - Troon, Larne - Cairnryan, or Belfast - Stranraer.

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 16 2008,13:49   

Quote (Peter Henderson @ Aug. 16 2008,11:31)
Quote
Definitely Antrim coast


Worth seeing Jeffox. If you don't want to hire a car Ulsterbus tours do a number of daytrips usually with a very informative guide on board. Some of them take in the Giant's Causeway as well:

http://www.translink.co.uk/daytours.asp

Like most major cities in the UK there are also a number of tour buses that operate from the city centre. Both Glasgow and Edinburgh do something similar.

The shortest routes between Scotland and NI by the way, are either Larne - Troon, Larne - Cairnryan, or Belfast - Stranraer.


Peter-

Thank you for the trip hints to Belfast*, but the instructions say to "pack light" and her bloody flack-jacket weighs 20 lbs ( I think that's 6 stone for you?)**


* But she might go back to Dublin

** I totally made this number up, cuz I is too lazy today to google " funny weight system in GB".

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
jeffox



Posts: 671
Joined: Oct. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 16 2008,19:51   

J-Dog did write above:

Quote
( I think that's 6 stone for you?)


Well, ya know, 19 stone = Whole lotta Rosie!   :)

(I just couldn't resist that one.)

  
Peter Henderson



Posts: 298
Joined: Aug. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 17 2008,13:13   

Just for you Jef:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBXHZNSUtyg

14lbs=1 stone

I still can't get to grips with the metric system though (an import from the EU). Everything's metric in the UK nowadays, except for speed (mph) distance (miles still) and pubs (they still use pints) although the EU constantly have their eye on it (pubs that is).

It's weird travelling from Belfast to Dublin. The speed limits change from mph to kph and distances from miles to kilometres once you cross the border. Very confusing unless you're familiar with the conversion factors.

  
huwp



Posts: 172
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 17 2008,16:56   

" here.  Oh well.

I am Welsh (the name's a bit of a giveaway) but even I would say Edinburgh would be a better choice.  Swansea is greatly improved as a Town in recent years but Edinburgh has things like the Festival and so on.  Both are surrounded by wonderful countryside.  

As I live in London and Wales is MUCH closer,  I have spent many happy days biking along narrow roads up through the ancient Cambrian mountains to mid Wales.

There were many sheep but I didn't see Louis once.

The Cubs baseball caps sound just fine; it is a token after all.  To be honest, I'm not sure that Bourbon would necessarily be well received.

Hwyl fawr.

Huw

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 17 2008,17:20   

Quote (huwp @ Aug. 17 2008,22:56)
[SNIP]

There were many sheep but I didn't see Louis once.

[SNIP]

I've told you people before: it's GOATS!

Anyway are you shearing that sheep?*

Louis

*No, get your own.

--------------
Bye.

  
guthrie



Posts: 696
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 19 2008,03:24   

I just need to look on here to see which stereotypes of Edinburgh are still being bandied around.
Its changed a lot even in the last 10 years.  

And you know what, we mostly use kilograms for weights of things.

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 06 2008,10:57   

Quick update and comment -

Erin (my daughter) loves Edinburgh, is having fun, taking lots of great pictures, traveled to the Highlands already, going to classes - which she says are too easy -  playing rugby with the First XV, and the reason for the post is that she gets to go "Live With The Natives" this week.

BUT - For some unfathomable reason, the school is sending her to live with an English family, not a Scotish family, so instead of drinking a nice single-malt and eating hagis, or deep-fried candy bar, she has to "motor-coach" to Southport England, where the fun seems to be a Museum... and I kid you not...

Lawnmower World

WTF???

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 06 2008,11:04   

Quote (J-Dog @ Nov. 06 2008,10:57)
Lawnmower World

WTF???

That is freaking awesome!  Just tell your daughter not to be this person.

--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
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