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stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 06 2007,21:14   

Quote ("Rev Dr" Lenny Flank @ Mar. 06 2007,21:33)
Quote (heddle @ Mar. 06 2007,19:25)
why the ID movement has been a disaster

Because they lied to everyone -- including the judge --- about their aims, goals and motives . . . . ?

I don't know if I would say that lying was their problem. They were obligated to lie, they were trying to sneak past the courts what the courts had already prohibited. That goal pretty much dooms them. Or maybe that just means the lie is the proximal cause and the goal is the distal one, I don't know. Anyway, federal judges are smart people, and when you do things like take a creationism textbook and global-search-and-replace "jesus" with "unknown Mr. X" they're going to look at you like you're an idiot, or, worse for you, like you think they're idiots. But even if the Seattle clique had done everything perfectly 'clean room', there's still the insurmountable problem that the test case is going to originate months before anyone calls the DI, at school board meetings where some jerk berates the science teachers for being atheist scum, and questions the christianity of anyone who opposes the idea. (For those of you who haven't lived in the rural south, those kinds of allegations can get your car keyed and your job imperiled.) While the guys in Seattle write jargony treatises about fake science like 'Ontogenetic Depth' and congratulate each other on how sciency they are, some troll is going to be in a badly lit flourescent room staring everybody down and saying "Carol, are you going to vote for creationism, or are you a Darwin-loving communist?" and all this is going to go into the minutes, and the local paper, and it's going to be Jesus, Creationism, Genesis for weeks and weeks before Casey Luskin flies in with a new playbook. And two years later, those few weeks are going to go over with the judge like a lead balloon.

The guys in Seattle didn't see that coming?

It's entirely possible that my analysis suffers from my opinion of the IDers' current states of mind, and I'm projecting it backward in time. We guess that by now Dembski knows the scientific jig is up and he's just keeping up appearances to keep the royalty checks coming in. We see Salvador say that he doesn't really care about flaws in ID because it's helping him win converts for christ. And so maybe I'm projecting this dishonesty back and incorrectly assuming it was a dishonest project from the start. If they didn't begin where they are now, as a purely cynical political strategy, then what I'm saying is wrong. But who knows. Maybe back then they really thought they were on to something with this Complex Specified Information, and Irreducible Complexity, and the other junk. Maybe they really believed their own spin for a while. Bob Park's fools-to-fraud thesis is that these guys really do start off honest, fired up, they think they're on to something big, and later on, when they just can't get it to work, and they realize the truth, they're already making money and prestige off it, and so they don't stop.

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 06 2007,21:29   

Heddle isn't insulting anybody here, and I don't want anybody to insult him.

Insulting graffiti will be moved to



The Bathroom Wall!

   
"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



Posts: 2560
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 06 2007,21:32   

Quote (stevestory @ Mar. 06 2007,21:14)
The guys in Seattle didn't see that coming?

On the very day that I first heard about the Dover ID policy and their determination to make a court case out of it, on November 12, 2004 (a year before the trial), I wrote, on the DebunkCreation email list:

Quote
"As I noted on anotehr list, the Discovery Institute is very likely
pulling its hair out about this. The DI has been VERY VERY careful
NOT to get involved in any court fights over the status of
"intelligent design theory", since it knows as well as I do that they
can't win. And now some redneck shit-for-brains in Pennsylvania is
going to FORCE a court case on whether ID is or isn't "science" --
using the same "Of Pandas and People" textbook that has ALREADY been
rejected by every state curriculum board as illegally teaching
religious doctrine.

It will be the death of ID."





Am I a prophet, or what . . . . .    ;)

--------------
Editor, Red and Black Publishers
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"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



Posts: 2560
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 06 2007,21:37   

Quote (stevestory @ Mar. 06 2007,21:14)
Maybe back then they really thought they were on to something with this Complex Specified Information, and Irreducible Complexity, and the other junk.

Nah, the Wedge Document makes it pretty apparent that ID was complete dishonest bullshit right from the beginning.

--------------
Editor, Red and Black Publishers
www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

  
stevestory



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Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 06 2007,21:39   

I've read the Wedge Document. Saying that they didn't want any court case, I don't see how that squares with the Wedge. I think they just didn't want that particular court case, once they found out the details of those early weeks. Am I wrong?

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 06 2007,21:50   

Quote ("Rev Dr" Lenny Flank @ Mar. 06 2007,22:32)
Quote (stevestory @ Mar. 06 2007,21:14)
The guys in Seattle didn't see that coming?

On the very day that I first heard about the Dover ID policy and their determination to make a court case out of it, on November 12, 2004 (a year before the trial), I wrote, on the DebunkCreation email list:

Quote
"As I noted on anotehr list, the Discovery Institute is very likely
pulling its hair out about this. The DI has been VERY VERY careful
NOT to get involved in any court fights over the status of
"intelligent design theory", since it knows as well as I do that they
can't win. And now some redneck shit-for-brains in Pennsylvania is
going to FORCE a court case on whether ID is or isn't "science" --
using the same "Of Pandas and People" textbook that has ALREADY been
rejected by every state curriculum board as illegally teaching
religious doctrine.

It will be the death of ID."





Am I a prophet, or what . . . . .    ;)

Certainly a much better prediction than Dembski's single-malt prediction.

   
"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



Posts: 2560
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 06 2007,21:54   

Quote (stevestory @ Mar. 06 2007,21:39)
I've read the Wedge Document. Saying that they didn't want any court case, I don't see how that squares with the Wedge. I think they just didn't want that particular court case, once they found out the details of those early weeks. Am I wrong?

I don't think they wanted a court case until they had firm, unquestioned political control over the entire court system.  Of course, as Tard made so clear right before the trial, they THOUGHT they had that in Dover.  They found out otherwise.

But since ID was, right from the beginning, so patently religious (and so patently dishonest about it), it never had any chance in any court, no matter what.  The fact that the Dover Dolts were such dolts, and that the editors of "Pandas" were such putzes, just helped make it lots easier to chop their heads off.  They would have lost anyway.  As I noted back in 2004, "Pandas" had already then been rejected by every state curriculum board who saw it, as being patently religious.

--------------
Editor, Red and Black Publishers
www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 06 2007,22:16   

Quote ("Rev Dr" Lenny Flank @ Mar. 06 2007,22:54)
I don't think they wanted a court case until they had firm, unquestioned political control over the entire court system.  Of course, as Tard made so clear right before the trial, they THOUGHT they had that in Dover.  They found out otherwise.

Huh. You've got a point there. If they drew a judge who was just a partisan Bush lackey, or a Roy Moore type, the situation might be different.

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 06 2007,22:23   

Davetard very clearly said, as you mention, that they thought they had the political fix in.

Quote
30 September 2005
Life After Dover
William Dembski

Before the Dover trial concludes, I want to offer some remarks about what I take will be its long-term significance. I want to do this now so that critics won’t be in a position to accuse me of spinning or rationalizing the outcome of the trial once it is reached (of course, they’ll still find fault, but that’s par for the course).

As I see it, there are three possible outcomes:

  1. The Dover policy, in which students are informed that the ID textbook Of Pandas and People is in their library, is upheld.
  2. The Dover policy is overturned but the scientific status of ID is left unchallenged.
  3. The Dover policy is not only overturned but ID is ruled as nonscientific.

For what it’s worth, my subjective probabilities are that outcome 1. has about a 20% probability, outcome 2. has about an 70% probability, and outcome 3. has less than a 10% probability.


If it doesn't have bad probabilities, it's not ID™!

Quote
DaveScot

09/30/2005

3:03 pm

Have more faith, Bill!

This is all about Judge Jones. If it were about the merits of the case we know we’d win. It’s about politics. Look at the Cobb county case. A sticker that did no more than mention a plain fact, that evolution is theory not a fact, was ruled a violation of the establishment clause. Incredible! A local school board saying evolution is a theory is, in some twisted logic that just makes me shudder, a law regarding an establishment of religion. Har har hardy har har. Right. In a pig’s ass (pardon my french). Clinton appointed Judge Clarence Cooper made a ridiculous ruling that was faithful to the left wing overlords that he serves.

Judge John E. Jones on the other hand is a good old boy brought up through the conservative ranks. He was state attorney for D.A.R.E, an Assistant Scout Master with extensively involved with local and national Boy Scouts of America, political buddy of Governor Tom Ridge (who in turn is deep in George W. Bush’s circle of power), and finally was appointed by GW hisself. Senator Rick Santorum is a Pennsylvanian in the same circles (author of the “Santorum Language” that encourages schools to teach the controversy) and last but far from least, George W. Bush hisself drove a stake in the ground saying teach the controversy. Unless Judge Jones wants to cut his career off at the knees he isn’t going to rule against the wishes of his political allies. Of course the ACLU will appeal. This won’t be over until it gets to the Supreme Court. But now we own that too.

Politically biased decisions from ostensibly apolitical courts are a double edged sword that cuts both ways. The liberals had their turn at bat. This is our time now. We won back congress in 1996. We won back the White House in 2000. We won back the courts in 2005. Now we can start undoing all the damage that was done by the flower children. The courts have been the last bastion of liberal power for 5 years. It was just a matter of time. The adults are firmly back in charge. The few wilted flower children that refused to grow up will have to satisfy themselves by following the likes of Cindy Sheehan around ineffectually whining about this, that, and the other thing. They’ve been marginalized.

And just as an aside, when I read "Unless Judge Jones wants to cut his career off at the knees he isn’t going to rule against the wishes of his political allies." what I hear is "I'm so dumb I hope we're living in a banana republic."

   
"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



Posts: 2560
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 06 2007,22:24   

Quote (stevestory @ Mar. 06 2007,22:16)
Quote ("Rev Dr" Lenny Flank @ Mar. 06 2007,22:54)
I don't think they wanted a court case until they had firm, unquestioned political control over the entire court system.  Of course, as Tard made so clear right before the trial, they THOUGHT they had that in Dover.  They found out otherwise.

Huh. You've got a point there. If they drew a judge who was just a partisan Bush lackey, or a Roy Moore type, the situation might be different.

I think what they were really waiting for was for Dubya to appoint more people to the Supreme Court.  THAT was where they expected the issue to be finally decided.

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www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

  
phonon



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Joined: Nov. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 06 2007,22:32   

http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelli....t-96340
 
Quote
I want to share four facts that are widely accepted by New Testament scholars today.
Fact 1: After his crucifixion, Jesus was buried by Joseph of Arimathea . . . .
Fact 2: On the Sunday following the crucifixion, Jesus’ tomb was found empty by a group of his women followers . . . .
Fact 3: On multiple occasions and under multiple circumstances, different individuals and groups of people experienced appearances of Jesus alive from the dead . . . .
Fact 4: The original disciples believed that Jesus was risen from the dead despite their having every reason [i.e. it was counter to their interests and even safety] not to . . . .


Fact 1: Arthur Dent witnessed the destruction of the Earth, a giant computer designed to calculate the ultimate question of the Universe

Fact 2: Zaphod Beeblebrox has two heads

Fact 4: Mice are actually trans-dimensional hyper-intelligent beings

It's easy to find facts in a book, apparently.

--------------
With most men, unbelief in one thing springs from blind belief in another. - Georg Christoph Lichtenberg

To do just the opposite is also a form of imitation. - Georg Christoph Lichtenberg

  
phonon



Posts: 396
Joined: Nov. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 06 2007,22:39   

http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelli....t-97108
Quote
It’s obviously clear why Darwinian news agency want to attack Biblical Christianity. The Bible is the word of God, and the Absolute Truth. Materialists hate the Bible, and want to convert everyone to their faith. Accordingly, they seek to undermine the Book which is overwhelmingly responsible for the existence of people skeptic of unguided evolutionism. As long as the Bible stands, materialism will always be in trouble.

Mats has it all figured out. James Cameron is really an operative for the Grand Evil Darwinist Conspiracy. The National Geographic Channel is merely one of its many propaganda outlets. It's a Darwinist news outlet, nothing more. I think we have to close up shop now. Materialism is in trouble. I guess I'll see all of you in church.

--------------
With most men, unbelief in one thing springs from blind belief in another. - Georg Christoph Lichtenberg

To do just the opposite is also a form of imitation. - Georg Christoph Lichtenberg

  
phonon



Posts: 396
Joined: Nov. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 06 2007,22:47   

http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelli....t-97278
jerry links to the website of Dinesh D'Souza as an authoritative source. You know, the guy who says that 9/11 was blowback for the evil of all them libruls, that if we just showed them that we are really nice conservatives, they wouldn't want to kill us. Actually, I don't really think that tothesourse is really his website at all. But the webiste is still funny (in a sad way) nonetheless.

And UD hasn't had a post since Sunday. I'm starting to worry about them.

--------------
With most men, unbelief in one thing springs from blind belief in another. - Georg Christoph Lichtenberg

To do just the opposite is also a form of imitation. - Georg Christoph Lichtenberg

  
"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



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Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 06 2007,22:56   

Quote (phonon @ Mar. 06 2007,22:47)
You know, the guy who says that 9/11 was blowback for the evil of all them libruls, that if we just showed them that we are really nice conservatives, they wouldn't want to kill us.

Oddly enough, one of the ID supporters who testified at the Kansas Kangaroo Kourt was Mustafa Akyol, one of the Muslin fundies who is trying to kill evolution in Turkey (they get money from the ICR and AIG, which just shows that American fundies know a kindred spirit when they see one).  Akyol testified in Kansas that the Muslim fundies don't like us because we're all atheists, and that if we reject evolution and embrace godly ID, they might like us more and not want to kill us.

It seemed rather strange, to me, to see this from the side that was, uh, supposed to be showing that ID is, ya know, science and not religion.  But then, I guess, IDers just ain't terribly bright.  (shrug)

It should perhaps be pointed out that it was the Kansas Kangaroo Kourt, not Dover, that really killed ID.  Until Kansas, the press was treating the IDers with kid gloves and giving them a free ride.  Then, the Kansas Kooks opened their mouths in public, in front of all those TV cameras, and showed the whole world just how idiotic they really were -- which just goes to show that IDers can't even win a public forum ***even if the other side refuses to show up***.  

What tards.

After the Kangaroo Kourt, the press dropped their kid gloves, and ID was dead.  Dover just nailed on the coffin lid.

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www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

  
phonon



Posts: 396
Joined: Nov. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 06 2007,23:36   

Quote ("Rev Dr" Lenny Flank @ Mar. 06 2007,22:56)
American fundies know a kindred spirit when they see one

Yeah, they hate teh gay just as much. Of course, the existence of gay people disproves evolution and that gays didn't evolve, but were created by God. And since gays go against God's word, we must cure them of their disease using prayer to God.

I guess we didn't do a good enough job at that or at purging secularism. Jerry Falwell said 9/11 was God's retribution for the evil in America. I guess he wants to get on the terrorists' good side. Be their buddies, just like Dinesh D'Souza. Using their logic, the 9/11 terrorists were basically God's messengers. Hey! That's what they thought too!

       
Quote
PAT ROBERTSON: Jerry, that's my feeling. I think we've just seen the antechamber to terror. We haven't even begun to see what they can do to the major population.

JERRY FALWELL: The ACLU's got to take a lot of blame for this.

PAT ROBERTSON: Well yes.


September 13, 2001 telecast of the 700 Club



Benny Hinn can save america!

--------------
With most men, unbelief in one thing springs from blind belief in another. - Georg Christoph Lichtenberg

To do just the opposite is also a form of imitation. - Georg Christoph Lichtenberg

  
Chris Hyland



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Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 07 2007,00:19   

Quote
Maybe back then they really thought they were on to something with this Complex Specified Information, and Irreducible Complexity, and the other junk.
My suspicion is that they actually have done a bit more work in this area than they are letting on, and came up empty handed, since presumably in the early days they did think that they were going to convince the scientific establishment of ID. There are certainly enough scientists on their team to know that evolutionbad + everyknowncomplexmachineresultofintelligence does not a persuasive scientific argument make, but that seems to have become there only argument and hasn't changed for some time. It fees like a resignation to the fact that that's all they're going to be able to come up with, so they're spending money on the Doug Axe type experiments instead of research that might actually help them.

Having said that maybe I'm just being too kind and it is either about money or Jesus but you do have to wonder if they did believe what they were doing at the start were they so stupid to think that TDI and DBB would convince the world.

Im sure the standard response is that there's an atheist conspiracy, but it turns out The Protocols of the Elders of Darwin was a cheap forgery.

Quote
Jerry Falwell said 9/11 was God's retribution for the evil in America.
So he thought it was a justifiable act then?

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 07 2007,00:38   

Quote (Chris Hyland @ Mar. 07 2007,01:19)
Quote
Jerry Falwell said 9/11 was God's retribution for the evil in America.
So he thought it was a justifiable act then?

I don't know if they've thought that thoroughly about it. I think it's just backwards reasoning. The liberals must be at fault for everything, therefore they somehow caused 9/11. That kind of conclusion-based reasoning is very common. FWIW, I think the main benefit of a science education is that it forces you to stifle those instincts and learn to trust the conclusions that result from the evidence, even when they disagree with your expectations. It's a humbling experience, and you learn that your most solid expectations can be completely wrong.

   
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 07 2007,03:33   

Quote (stevestory @ Mar. 07 2007,00:38)
     
Quote (Chris Hyland @ Mar. 07 2007,01:19)
     
Quote
Jerry Falwell said 9/11 was God's retribution for the evil in America.
So he thought it was a justifiable act then?

I don't know if they've thought that thoroughly about it. I think it's just backwards reasoning. The liberals must be at fault for everything, therefore they somehow caused 9/11. That kind of conclusion-based reasoning is very common.

This reminds me of something that happened recently on another discussion group I belong to. One poster was talking about John Dean's book "Conservatives without Conscience" and referenced work by Robert Altemeyer on the authoritarian personality.  He quoted an extended passage from Altemeyers book, that I reproduce here (bolding mine):
     
Quote

Sitting in the jury room of the Port Angeles, Washington court house in 1989, Mary Wegmann might have felt she had suddenly been transferred to a parallel universe in some Twilight Zone story. For certain fellow-jury members seemed to have attended a different trial than the one she had just witnessed. They could not remember some pieces of evidence, they invented evidence that did not exist, and they steadily made erroneous inferences from the material that everyone could agree on. Encountering my research as she was later developing her Ph.D. dissertation project, she suspected the people who "got it wrong" had been mainly high RWAs (Right Wing Authoritarian). So she recruited a sample of adults from the Clallam County jury list, and a group of students from Peninsula College and gave them various memory and inference tests. For example, they listened to a tape of two lawyers debating a school segregation case on a McNeil/Lehrer News Hour program. Wegmann found High RWAs indeed had more trouble remembering details of the material they'd encountered, and they made more incorrect inferences on a reasoning test than others usually did. Overall, the authoritarians had lots of trouble simply thinking straight.

Intrigued, I gave the inferences test that Mary Wegmann had used to two large samples of students at my university. In both studies high RWAs went down in flames more than others did. They particularly had trouble figuring out that an inference or deduction was wrong. To illustrate, suppose they had gotten the following syllogism:

All fish live in the sea.
Sharks live in the sea..
Therefore, sharks are fish.

The conclusion does not follow, but high RWAs would be more likely to say the reasoning is correct than most people would. If you ask them why it seems right, they would likely tell you, "Because sharks are fish." In other words, they thought the reasoning was sound because they agreed with the last statement. If the conclusion is right, they figure, then the reasoning must have been right. Or to put it another way, they don't "get it" that the reasoning matters--especially on a reasoning test.

This is not only "Illogical, Captain," as Mr. Spock would say, it's quite dangerous, because it shows that if authoritarian followers like the conclusion, the logic involved is pretty irrelevant. The reasoning should justify the conclusion, but for a lot of high RWAs, the conclusion validates the reasoning. Such is the basis of many a prejudice, and many a Big Lie that comes to be accepted.

Interestingly, on the discussion group there is one individual who probably falls into the category of right wing authoritarian (which does not encompass the entirety of the right end of the political spectrum) who spent a good part of two days arguing that there is no other conclusion that could be drawn except that shark are fish.  He was completely impervious to the suggestion that you could state that there was insufficient information to draw a conclusion.

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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 07 2007,06:26   

Quote ("Rev Dr" Lenny Flank @ Mar. 06 2007,21:37)
     
Quote (stevestory @ Mar. 06 2007,21:14)
Maybe back then they really thought they were on to something with this Complex Specified Information, and Irreducible Complexity, and the other junk.

Nah, the Wedge Document makes it pretty apparent that ID was complete dishonest bullshit right from the beginning.

My feeling is that both assertions are correct. I do believe that there was a moment in the middle '90s when a few of the actors (Dembski, Behe) believed that they could show that God's design efforts are formally demonstrable in nature by something resembling scientific means.

The bald, deliberate dishonesty was introduced in their attempt to devise a truncated version of this thesis that maintained, with a straight face, that they were motivated strictly by scientific interest in design detection, not the designer. This calculated amputation was performed strictly for the purpose of pressing their cultural and political aims. These were transparent lies of the first order. (Who did they think they were fooling?)

That lie continues, at least in the form of lip service, although content at UD and DI since Dover makes it clear that this fiction is no longer being argued with any conviction.

I also believe that a new level of dishonesty has emerged, in that all of the principals within ID now understand that there is no formulation of ID that has empirical, and hence scientific, traction - yet they continue to portray ID as a scientific viewpoint, and to spin fictional narratives regarding the growing influence of their thesis within the scientific community. They are fully aware that these assertions are bullshit, pure and simple, but there is no backing down now.

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
J-Dog



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(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 07 2007,10:26   

THIS JUST IN...TEMPLETON CALLS DEMBSKI OUT.  AGAIN

The Case of the Missing Book: Setting the Record Straight on William Dembski, the Templeton Foundation, and Intelligent Design
By William Grassie

A February 27, 2007 posting on Wikipedia by Joseph C. Campana with ResearchID.org suggests that “Media Misreports Intelligent Design Research and the John Templeton Foundation”.1 Campana argues that contrary to recent press statements by Charles Harper, the Templeton Foundation in fact does or at least once did supported Intelligent Design Theory (ID).  William Dembski has also taken up this discussion on his own blog found at UncommonDescent.com.2

In 1998 and 1999, under the auspices of the Philadelphia Center for Religion and Science (PCRS), now known as the Metanexus Institute3, I managed a grant program for the John Templeton Foundation.  The project was advertised under the title “Research, Writing, and Publications Exploring the Constructive Interaction of Science and Religion” and offered seven $100,000 grants.  The project was designed and implemented at the request of Sir John Templeton and designated three-topical areas for funding: Evidence of Purpose, Human Creativity and Understanding, and Concepts of God.  There were some 400 letters-of-intent received in January 1999, from which twenty-eight were invited to submit full proposals in May 1999.  

Seven grants were awarded in September 1999, including one to William Dembski for his proposed book Being as Communion. Dembski has an impressive curriculum vitae, including a Ph.D. in mathematics from the University of Chicago, a Ph.D. in philosophy from the University of Illinois at Chicago, and a Masters of Divinity from Princeton Theological Seminary.  His dense book The Design Inference (Dembski, 1998) launched a highly technical debate among academics about information theory, complexity, and evolution.  At the request of Dembski, the grant was received on his behalf by the Discovery Institute4, rather than Baylor University, where he had been hired to serve as the director of the newly created Michael Polyani Institute in October 1999.5

The judges involved in selecting the seven grantees were John Polkinghorne, Cambridge University; Philip Hefner, Zygon Journal; and Lawrence Sullivan, then director of Harvard University Center on World Religions.  The Templeton Foundation played no role in the judging and selection process.  Dembski’s book proposal set out to develop a scientific and theological reflection on the elusive nature of information:

“Being as Communion weds specified complexity to Shannon’s theory of information.  An immediate consequence of this marriage is a conservation law for complex specified information. According to this law, undirected natural causes can transmit but cannot originate complex specified information.  This law suggests that a fundamental teleology underlies the natural world.  It follows that complex specified information, though instantiated in the natural world, is not reducible to the natural world.  This is precisely the opening one needs for a relational ontology of communion:  To be is to be in communion, and to be in communion is to exchange information.  Being as Communion argues that this view makes not only good scientific sense, but also good metaphysical and theological sense.”6
The judges were skeptical about whether a law for complex specified information could be formalized and also shared concerns about the emerging Intelligent Design movement, but were intrigued by the metaphysical and theological treatment proposed by Dembski.  Relational ontologies are not altogether new in metaphysics, see for instance A.N. Whitehead, but an information centric approach seemed new and promising.

In 2002, Dembski published No Free Lunch and requested a second installation payment on the Book Grant from the Templeton Foundation (Dembski, 2002).  In correspondence with him, he was told by me that this book did not fulfill his obligation to publish a work on metaphysics and theology as detailed in his book proposal entitled Being as Communion.  That book has still not been produced.

This is the case of the missing book, one that I sincerely hope Bill Dembski will write, a constructive theology of evolution and information theory.  In truth, Dembski is not the only one of the seven grant winners who has not yet completed their proposed books.  Three others, while productive in other ways, have also not completed their proposed books.  

This book grant was launched at an early stage in both the evolution of the John Templeton Foundation and also the evolution of the Intelligent Design Movement.  There were certainly sympathies towards aspects of the ID arguments and interest in pushing the technical and theological sides of their inquiry, but as the ID Theory became a political movement, the John Templeton Foundation began to slowly--perhaps too slowly--to disassociate itself from the Discovery Institute, William Dembski, and other protagonists in the debate.7

Metanexus Institute has hosted extensive discussions pro and con on Intelligent Design8, including many essays authored by William Dembski on our website.9  At our 2001 conference at Haverford College, we hosted a series of debates that included William Dembski and Michael Behe.10  At our Academic Board Meeting at Arizona State University in January 2006, we held an all day consultation on the topic followed by a public program in the evening.11  At our 2006 conference at the University of Pennsylvania, we held a teach-in entitled “Beyond Intelligent Design, Science Debates, and Culture Wars”.  The latter is now available for purchase as a 3 DVD set.12  Our approach has always been to object to the polarization, the obfuscation, and mutual demonization that has characterized much of the debate about Intelligent Design.  Metanexus affirms that a long and evolving Earth and Cosmic history is a well-established fact of science, but that the interpretation of this natural history, how it happens and what it means, is open to diverse points of views.

Why distance oneself from the Intelligent Design Movement?  I cannot speak for the John Templeton Foundation,13 but we at Metanexus grew tired of the increasingly politicized debates about Intelligent Design Theory.  Proponents were clearly engaged in a political campaign to change public education.  While the erudite advocates were proposing what might be called “Intelligently Designed Evolution,” the core of the movement were mostly Young Earth Creationists.  The genealogy of the movement was clearly motivated not by a technical scientific debate, but by a longstanding religious and ideological concern to overthrow evolution. The logic of the ID movement is essentially that evolution = Darwinism = materialism = atheism = immorality = nihilism. This is not a necessary correlation.  

The evidence for a long and evolving Earth history has mounted exponentially over the centuries, even as our understanding for how this happens grows more complex.14  Whatever the inadequacies of the Darwinian paradigm, these do not undermine the reality of evolution.  Darwinian natural selection alone may or may not be adequate for explaining the florescence, diversity and complexity of life on the planet (Wesson, 1991), (Depew, 1996), (Stewart 1998) (Oyama 2000), (Morris 2003).  Darwin himself raises the question in The Origin of Species:

“I am fully convinced that species are not immutable; but that those belonging to what are called the same genera are lineal descendants of some other and generally extinct species…  Furthermore, I am convinced that Natural Selection has been the most important, but not the exclusive, means of modification.”
Whatever the deficiencies in Darwinism, whether it is an exclusive or even most important mechanism in the transmutation of species, these scientific debates do not necessarily imply “intelligently designed complexity” as an alternative and certainly not the only alternative.

Metanexus proposed in 2006 to clarify the public debate in our schools by focusing on teaching the history of nature as understood by science, before getting bogged down in interpretation of that history.  While humans regularly distinguish between natural occurring objects and artifacts (those created by humans), there is no formal logic that allows one to make that distinction, nor any computer algorithm capable of making that distinction.  Intelligent Design, therefore, is no more a scientific concept, than those who say that science proves meaninglessness and purposelessness in nature (Dawkins, 1986), (Dennett, 1995).   Science qua science cannot detect meaninglessness and purposelessness as a metaphysical statement.

Historical sciences are necessarily different from laboratory sciences, because cosmology, evolution, and history are singular cases, which cannot be repeated in a controlled laboratory study.  Intelligent Design is a plausible interpretative move, but not something that can be resolved by science, any more than science can tell us whether the universe is truly random.  This limitation applies also to the apparent fine-tuning problem debated in contemporary cosmology.

Back in the fall of 2000, I privately challenged Dembski to publicly disassociate himself from the Young Earth Creationists and “come clean” on what version of natural history he thought should be taught in schools.  His response, “Intelligent Design Coming Clean”, was published on Metanexus.net on November 18, 2000.  Dembski wrote:

“I do not regard Genesis as a scientific text. I have no vested theological interest in the age of the earth or the universe…  Nature, as far as I'm concerned, has an integrity that enables it to be understood without recourse to revelatory texts. That said, I believe that nature points beyond itself to a transcendent reality… ”
No argument here.  Indeed, I would say a thoughtful reading of contemporary science is more indicative of transcendence, broadly defined, than of crass materialism reductio ad absurdum.  Dembski continues:

“Where I part company with complementarianism is in arguing that when science points to a transcendent reality, it can do so as science and not merely as religion… In particular, I argue that design in nature is empirically detectable and that the claim that natural systems exhibit design can have empirical content…”
Agreed, but transcendence does not require or demand the use of the metaphor “design,” taken from human architecture and engineering.  Nor, for reasons already stated, will it be possible to give a formal logic for distinguishing between natural and artifactual entities, especially when we employ different time frames and size scales in the examination.  Dembski continues in his Metanexus essay:

“Repeatedly I've been asked to distance myself not only from the obstreperous likes of Phillip Johnson but especially from the even more scandalous young earth creationists…  I'm prepared to do neither…”15  
And there with comes the rub.  One can legitimately debate the meaning of evolution and how it occurs.  These are engaging and difficult issues in science, philosophy, and the theology of nature.16  On the other hand, it is pretty stupid to choose as one’s allies those who deny the overwhelming accumulation of evidence in favor of a long Earth history and the transmutation of species.  

I, for one, look forward to reading Bill Dembski’s proposed book Being as Communion, for which he was paid a generous advance by the John Templeton Foundation.  I do not expect this book to discover empirically detectable design in nature, but rather to offer a rich and compelling metaphysical and theological discussion of how evolution might be understood in light of information theory and what it might mean in conversation with our theistic traditions.

http://www.metanexus.net/metanexus_online/show_article2.asp?id=9819

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Mr_Christopher



Posts: 1238
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 07 2007,11:48   

Quote (heddle @ Mar. 06 2007,19:25)
Quote (stevestory @ Mar. 06 2007,17:40)
Tims's UD post reminds me, at one point last year Dave Heddle turned on Dembski. Said he was going to write a big explanation of where Dembski's math was in error. I went there a few times last year to look for that post, but all I saw was Jesus and NASCAR, and disliking both, didn't hang around. Does anybody here go to his site and know whether or not he wrote that essay?

I have not written the essay.

What I did was a huge amount of research, (re)reading Dembski's books (no fun, I'll assure you) and searching for all existing criticisms. The bottom line, I'll readily admit, is I am not sure I can add anything new. There was much more already written than I was aware of. I might get around to it, but I'm in no hurry--I would actually prefer to write a book--a Christian/Scientist on why the ID movement has been a disaster--which would include a chapter that would amount to a review of the better criticisms aimed at Dembski's mathematics. However, the ID fifteen minutes seems to be just about used up--I doubt I could find a publisher. So maybe I'll write another novel instead. That's a lot more fun.

As for Jesus and NASCAR, how could you not like either of those related topics? If God didn't intend NASCAR, why did he give us Morgan Shepherd?


GCT,

 
Quote
And yet, the only reason he is adding his two cents is probably because none of those others have done the trick in his estimation.  See, he has this totally awesome, cool way of finally showing us all where Dembski went wrong that no one has thought of before since no one before Heddle has been able to show where Dembski was wrong.  Or at least that's the impression I get.

Also, a few commenters there have asked multiple times when he is going to get around to his mathematical tour de force and he keeps dodging the question.


As usual, you are less than truthful. I never once implied that I have some awesome new criticism--I would not have expected so since the problems are fairly evident and I am not even a mathematician.

And Choo-Choo asked me a few times (do you know of someone else? You implied multiple people have asked me about it.) about the Dembski critique, and I keep telling him I hadn't done it. How is that dodging?

BTW, It's funny that you flame me when I criticize PZ and his commenters--and yet you participate in this forum whose raison d'etre is to criticize someone (Dembski) and his commenters. (Oh, but that's different...)

I'll buy your book if you find a publisher!

--------------
Uncommon Descent is a moral cesspool, a festering intellectual ghetto that intoxicates and degrades its inhabitants - Stephen Matheson

  
2ndclass



Posts: 182
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 07 2007,12:50   

Quote (heddle @ Mar. 06 2007,19:25)
What I did was a huge amount of research, (re)reading Dembski's books (no fun, I'll assure you) and searching for all existing criticisms. The bottom line, I'll readily admit, is I am not sure I can add anything new.

I think it's true that Dembski's core problems have all been pointed out, some of them ad nauseam.  But one could easily fill a book with the errors that are offshoots of the core problems.  And rereading inevitably reveals undiscovered errors.

For example, I recently saw that in the last two paragraphs of page 8 on this paper, Dembski tries to invalidate Bayesian reasoning, but ends up proving by contradiction that Fisherian reasoning is invalid.  Such is the miscellany of illogic that's sprinkled liberally throughout Dembski's work.

--------------
"I wasn't aware that classical physics had established a position on whether intelligent agents exercising free were constrained by 2LOT into increasing entropy." -DaveScot

  
Bebbo



Posts: 161
Joined: Dec. 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 07 2007,13:58   

Quote (J-Dog @ Mar. 07 2007,10:26)
THIS JUST IN...TEMPLETON CALLS DEMBSKI OUT.  AGAIN
[....]

At http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelli....bout-id

Dembski opines:

"Finally, I find it interesting that Templeton keeps no online record of the book prize that I won. Seven people won the prize in 1999, including Darwinist Michael Ruse. Yet the only reference one can find to that award is not on the Templeton Foundation website (which otherwise seems meticulous about maintaining a record of its past funding and accomplishments) but rather on the ESSSAT website (European Society for the Study of Science and Theology):" [my emphasis]

Conclusion: Templeton doesn't consider Dembski's award an accomplishment.

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 07 2007,14:04   

Tard, glorious Tard...

http://www.uncommondescent.com/biology....t-97372

Quote
18

Doug

03/07/2007

2:24 pm
Tims Wrote:
Quote

How exactly is evolution attacking common sense and decency?

The information I provided above was to inform Jerry that he needed to look at published research a little more.

To say that evolution has not provided to scientific understanding is a farse. Ask any microbiologist if evolution has helped them understand what they see when bacteria evolves resistance. Ask an immunologist the same for virual replication. Perhaps it would help to have a understanding of biology before making these claims.

Evolution is attacking common sense and decency by undermining the fabric of our superior western values. When we are presented with a world that is totally random, where the cause of life and love and liberty and morality and decency gets boiled down to its parts and the parts get separated from the whole then the parts get addressed in society apart from the whole which allows us to view the Brittany Spears debacle with exactly the same disinterest as homosexual intercourse being simulated on television, the American flag being defacated on during a pro PEACE rally, millions and millions of babies born to unwed and unprepared mothers being aborted every year and equivocating science with moral truth. Are you following me?

The implications of darwinism are nihilism. THere is no purpose, there is no point. There is no god. There is no good. There is no bad. There is only pleasure and pain. Our species will simply commit collective suicide. THe effect of chronic depression due toi the fact that nothing matters. You talk about science this and science that. Sure, maybe the evidence points towards your conclusion. But common sense and decency point in the opposite direction.

One of the lines in Jurrassic park strikes me as appropriate here. “You spent so much time asking if you can do this that nobody bothered to ask if you should.”

You have created Frankenstein. Now you are trying to answer its questions as if they were fully appropriate. They are not. The truth of ID can be sensed in the fabric of our being. The fact of ID is of little relevance compared to its truth.


If the implications of anything where Nihilism, I doubt people would continue doing it as there would be no point?


Apparently there's a big fight, Evidence Vs. Common Sense & Decency. Well, that's just not fair, its two on one for a start.


Next court case, I suspect UD will be used as evidence, by our side.


New UD metric: Bible references per post. I recon its about 1.2

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 07 2007,14:15   

Brace for Tardwrath:

http://www.uncommondescent.com/biology....t-97348

Quote
Dave,

I do not believe that ID should be held to a higher standard. I believe it should be held within the same standard.

As for RM + NS (I am assuming random mutation plus natural selection) there is plenty of published material about bacteria acquiring immunity to potentially fatal substances in their environment. We do not see this in a form of Macroevolution due to the time needed to observe the multitude of generations necessary to have a significant outcome.

Yes, ID should do some empirical research. TOE has had research done, some providing supporting and some providing no supporting data. If there is some empirical research done for ID I would be thankful if you can supply me a link.

As for understanding ID, how was my definition different than what is provided on the link from the intelligent design network?
“… ID is about IC stating that due to IC it is not physically probable for something to evolve, by natural laws, to this current state and therefore must have been designed by some force.”
“The theory of intelligent design (ID) holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause rather than an undirected process such as natural selection.” “Positive evidence of design in living systems consists of the semantic, meaningful or functional nature of biological information, the lack of any known law that can explain the sequence of symbols that carry the “messages,” and statistical and experimental evidence that tends to rule out chance as a plausible explanation.”

What “Strawman” are you pointing at?


--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 07 2007,14:29   

Quote (Richardthughes @ Mar. 07 2007,14:15)
Brace for Tardwrath:

http://www.uncommondescent.com/biology....t-97348


Richard et al- Which is the more likely to occur?

1.) Warning ala " your days are numbered if you continue",

2.) or the more serious, "You are gone homo"?

Should this be run through the EF?

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 07 2007,14:31   

His posting rights get pulled on the quiet then everyone replies to him and the replies are so good "he runs away / is unable to answer".

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 07 2007,14:35   

Test post:

I just got "Sorry, you are not permitted to use this board

You are currently logged in as Richardthughes "

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 07 2007,14:52   

Quote
Evolution is attacking common sense and decency by undermining the fabric of our superior western values. When we are presented with a world that is totally random, where the cause of life and love and liberty and morality and decency gets boiled down to its parts and the parts get separated from the whole then the parts get addressed in society apart from the whole which allows us to view the Brittany Spears debacle with exactly the same disinterest as homosexual intercourse being simulated on television, the American flag being defacated on during a pro PEACE rally, millions and millions of babies born to unwed and unprepared mothers being aborted every year and equivocating science with moral truth. Are you following me?

The implications of darwinism are nihilism. THere is no purpose, there is no point. There is no god. There is no good. There is no bad. There is only pleasure and pain. Our species will simply commit collective suicide. THe effect of chronic depression due toi the fact that nothing matters. You talk about science this and science that. Sure, maybe the evidence points towards your conclusion. But common sense and decency point in the opposite direction.

One of the lines in Jurrassic park strikes me as appropriate here. “You spent so much time asking if you can do this that nobody bothered to ask if you should.”

You have created Frankenstein. Now you are trying to answer its questions as if they were fully appropriate. They are not. The truth of ID can be sensed in the fabric of our being. The fact of ID is of little relevance compared to its truth.


Good god. This is a veritable who's who of Fundaloon cognitive dissonance. He mentions 'decency' THREE times.

Okay, let's run down the Tard Checklist, shall we?

1) "attacking common sense and decency" - check
2) "superior western values" - check
3) "world that is totally random" - check
4) "love and liberty and morality and decency" - check
5) "Brittany [sic] Spears" - check
6) "homosexual intercourse on television" - check
7) "American flag being defacated [sic] on"
8) "pro PEACE rally" - check
9) "babies" - check
10) "unwed mothers" - check
11) "abortion" - check
12) "moral truth" - check
13) "darwinism = nihilism" - check
14) "There is no god" - check
15) "There is no good. There is no bad. There is only pleasure and pain" - check
16) "Our species will simply commit collective suicide" - check
17) "chronic depression" - check
18) "Sure, maybe the evidence points towards your conclusion. But common sense and decency point in the opposite direction" - check
19) "Frankenstein" - check

and finally, the money shot:

20) "The fact of ID is of little relevance compared to its truth"

DANG, this Doug guy is GOOD.

A little TOO good...

Okay. Fess up.

WHICH of you guys is Doug?

I'm waiting...

[taps foot impatiently here]

Come on people...  :angry:

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 07 2007,14:58   

Re "15) "There is no good. There is no bad. There is only pleasure and pain" - check"

"It's not about good. It's not about evil. It's about power" - Buffy.

"Its not about right. It's not about wrong. It's about power" - The First Evil.

  
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