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Antievolution.org Discussion Board > From the Panda's Thumb > After the Bar Closes... > The official Post Atheism Movement starts now

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carlsonjok Posts: 3326 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 28 2011,18:13    So, I wandered over to Pharyngula to see if Bunnygate had reached it's denouement, when what should I spy on the front page but a post about the controversy in Kansas where Governor Brownback came down on a high school student who tweeted unfavorably out him, Sam Brownback: #heblowsalot. And, what should I find 3 comments in? Quote    Janine, Clueless And Reactionary As Ever, OM, says:    28 November 2011 at 2:05 pm    Sam Brownback: #heblowsalot.    So, homophobic imagery is alright as long as it goes against a wannabe theocrat? The first thing that came to mind was this Onion article. -------------- It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

Jim_Wynne Posts: 1208 Joined: June 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 28 2011,18:17    Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Nov. 28 2011,17:39) Quote (Jim_Wynne @ Nov. 28 2011,10:11)     Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Nov. 28 2011,09:48)     Quote (Jim_Wynne @ Nov. 28 2011,09:38) In reading through this thread and the other one regarding feminism, it occurs to me that there has never, to my knowledge, been a significant social movement that wasn't created and to some extent sustained by "radicals."  Large-scale social change happens because of noisy people who refuse to shut up, and who invariably offend some people who might be sympathetic in general. The current complaint about PZ is typical and predictable.  It's helpful in such cases to look at the cumulative effects of the hyperbole (which is what the gelato man business is), rather than getting excited about individual instances. Isn't that approaching an "end justifies the means" argument? Is it OK to vilify an individual for the greater good? It seems like a scapegoat/set-an-example thing to me and I am uncomfortable about that. I made an observation regarding the historical role of radical thinkers/speakers in social change. Such observation doesn't imply endorsement of any particular method or action.  In the present case I don't think that anyone has been harmed, or will be harmed, by PZ calling a bigot a bigot. Gelato guy a bigot? Seriously, I do not see it that way. In what way (assuming you mean him) is he a bigot? And that's where the divide is, I guess. I say gelato man is a bigot because he hung out a sign saying that a certain class of people (meaning atheists, of course) weren't welcome in his Christian-owned business. If not bigotry, what is it? I don't think that a general well-meaning attitude gets anyone off the hook, and I agree with PZ when he complains that religion has gotten a free pass in this regard for far too long. -------------- Evolution is not about laws but about randomness on happanchance.--Robert Byers, at PT

Stephen Elliott Posts: 1776 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 28 2011,18:42    Quote (Jim_Wynne @ Nov. 28 2011,18:17) Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Nov. 28 2011,17:39) Quote (Jim_Wynne @ Nov. 28 2011,10:11)     Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Nov. 28 2011,09:48)       Quote (Jim_Wynne @ Nov. 28 2011,09:38) In reading through this thread and the other one regarding feminism, it occurs to me that there has never, to my knowledge, been a significant social movement that wasn't created and to some extent sustained by "radicals."  Large-scale social change happens because of noisy people who refuse to shut up, and who invariably offend some people who might be sympathetic in general. The current complaint about PZ is typical and predictable.  It's helpful in such cases to look at the cumulative effects of the hyperbole (which is what the gelato man business is), rather than getting excited about individual instances. Isn't that approaching an "end justifies the means" argument? Is it OK to vilify an individual for the greater good? It seems like a scapegoat/set-an-example thing to me and I am uncomfortable about that. I made an observation regarding the historical role of radical thinkers/speakers in social change. Such observation doesn't imply endorsement of any particular method or action.  In the present case I don't think that anyone has been harmed, or will be harmed, by PZ calling a bigot a bigot. Gelato guy a bigot? Seriously, I do not see it that way. In what way (assuming you mean him) is he a bigot? And that's where the divide is, I guess. I say gelato man is a bigot because he hung out a sign saying that a certain class of people (meaning atheists, of course) weren't welcome in his Christian-owned business. If not bigotry, what is it? I don't think that a general well-meaning attitude gets anyone off the hook, and I agree with PZ when he complains that religion has gotten a free pass in this regard for far too long. He hung that sign up as a reaction and took it down on his own volition. I can't equate that as bigotry. It wasn't even a sign against atheists in general, just the ones he saw/heard mocking everything that he held as sacred. Was he right? Hell no! That was something he worked out alone. How is he a bigot? IMO he is just a human who made a mistake, realised and tried to take corrective action.

Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 28 2011,20:00    Bigotry Bigotry Bigotry. Lest we all become too smug with our own superiority, who here isn't bigoted against Nazis? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki....Bigotry We all have baggage (positive or not), and assert out opinions. There's a bunch of fallacies that share an apartment with 'bigotry'. -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

BWE Posts: 1902 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 28 2011,20:16    Quote Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says: 28 November 2011 at 7:40 pm    It sucks when anyone is discriminated against based on what they believe and not what they do. GG did something bigoted, therefore unforgivable. What part of that aren’t you understanding BWE? I don’t think you are listening at all, as that should have sunk in after all these posts. All you are doing is preaching your presuppositional idiocy. note the use of the word 'therefore, rich. Take that. -------------- Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered When wished on the morning star Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it Look what it's done so far The Daily Wingnut

Schroedinger's Dog Posts: 1692 Joined: Jan. 2009 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 29 2011,03:36    Quote (Richardthughes @ Nov. 29 2011,03:00) Bigotry Bigotry Bigotry. Lest we all become too smug with our own superiority, who here isn't bigoted against Nazis? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki.......Bigotry We all have baggage (positive or not), and assert out opinions. There's a bunch of fallacies that share an apartment with 'bigotry'. "Nazis! I hate nazis!" -Indiana Jones What a bigot! -------------- "Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G "I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis "The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

Roland Anderson Posts: 51 Joined: Sep. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 29 2011,04:21    Quote Reading comprehension much? I never said you asserted anything. You told me to do my research, as if I had asserted something. You made the assertions, you do the research to back them up. So far you haven't produced anything which fits the bill. I wondered if you're interested in pursuing the question of what it is you don't like about the fundamentalist feminists you see on Pharyngula? I would be :-)

Roland Anderson Posts: 51 Joined: Sep. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 29 2011,04:24    Quote (carlsonjok @ Nov. 28 2011,18:13) So, I wandered over to Pharyngula to see if Bunnygate had reached it's denouement, when what should I spy on the front page but a post about the controversy in Kansas where Governor Brownback came down on a high school student who tweeted unfavorably out him, Sam Brownback: #heblowsalot. And, what should I find 3 comments in?   Quote    Janine, Clueless And Reactionary As Ever, OM, says:    28 November 2011 at 2:05 pm    Sam Brownback: #heblowsalot.    So, homophobic imagery is alright as long as it goes against a wannabe theocrat? The first thing that came to mind was this Onion article. OK, so is the imagery homophobic? What do you think? Substance, remember, substance.

Schroedinger's Dog Posts: 1692 Joined: Jan. 2009 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 29 2011,05:28    Quote (Roland Anderson @ Nov. 29 2011,11:21) Quote Reading comprehension much? I never said you asserted anything. You told me to do my research, as if I had asserted something. You made the assertions, you do the research to back them up. So far you haven't produced anything which fits the bill. I wondered if you're interested in pursuing the question of what it is you don't like about the fundamentalist feminists you see on Pharyngula? I would be :-) What I don't like about them? Do you really want to go back to my post and read those quotes from Marcotte and Skeptifem? If you don't see anything wrong with that, you have a serious problem. -------------- "Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G "I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis "The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

Schroedinger's Dog Posts: 1692 Joined: Jan. 2009 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 29 2011,05:29    Quote (Roland Anderson @ Nov. 29 2011,11:24) Quote (carlsonjok @ Nov. 28 2011,18:13) So, I wandered over to Pharyngula to see if Bunnygate had reached it's denouement, when what should I spy on the front page but a post about the controversy in Kansas where Governor Brownback came down on a high school student who tweeted unfavorably out him, Sam Brownback: #heblowsalot. And, what should I find 3 comments in?   Quote    Janine, Clueless And Reactionary As Ever, OM, says:    28 November 2011 at 2:05 pm    Sam Brownback: #heblowsalot.    So, homophobic imagery is alright as long as it goes against a wannabe theocrat? The first thing that came to mind was this Onion article. OK, so is the imagery homophobic? What do you think? Substance, remember, substance. Louis Armstrong used to blow a lot too. Again, your point? -------------- "Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G "I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis "The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

carlsonjok Posts: 3326 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 29 2011,06:18    Quote (Roland Anderson @ Nov. 29 2011,04:24) Quote   Quote    Janine, Clueless And Reactionary As Ever, OM, says:    28 November 2011 at 2:05 pm    Sam Brownback: #heblowsalot.    So, homophobic imagery is alright as long as it goes against a wannabe theocrat? The first thing that came to mind was this Onion article. OK, so is the imagery homophobic? What do you think? Substance, remember, substance. Maybe, maybe not.  It could be homoerotic.  Your hetero-normative bias is showing. The issue, Roland, at least for me, isn't whether a cartoon with a stuffed bunny is a tool of gender oppression, but rather that there are people who spend entirely too much time looking at stuffed bunnies for things to be offended about. I work in manufacturing, which, as you might expect, is a male dominated field.  However, throughout my career, I have seen many successful women. I've had the pleasure to work for some, and the honor of promoting the careers of others.  And what was their formula for success?  Well, they didn't spend their time complaining about the patriarchal subtext of the Successories prints that littered the corridor walls.  No, sir. They just put on their big girl pants and got shit done.  Who do you suppose is making a better case for equality? -------------- It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

George Posts: 316 Joined: Feb. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 29 2011,06:21    Roland, You're saying that most everyone here is engaged merely in tone trolling.  In the Sam Brownback post, PZ says: Quote While we’re all laughing at Governor Crybaby, you might also take a moment to write (politely!) to Principal Krawitz and let him know... (Emphasis mine.) Now why do you think he's asking for politeness?  Is it because PZ is a pearl-clutching tone policeman?  Of course not.  It's because PZ recognises (for a change) that in many situations (not all of course), being polite pays.  It gets people to listen to your points and not get turned off by ranting and insults.   Tone sometimes matters.  And when you're a high profile atheist and evolutionary biologist and you frequently act like an asshole on your blog and happily associate with assholes, you run the risk of alienating people that you could either convert or make allies with to help forward your aims.  (That assumes that these aims are promoting equality for atheists and understanding of evolutionary science, and not just having fun with your gang.) D'you see what I'm saying?

George Posts: 316 Joined: Feb. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 29 2011,06:34    Heh, went looking for a succinct definition of "tone trolling" and what did I find?

Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 29 2011,08:47    Quote (BWE @ Nov. 28 2011,20:16) Quote Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says: 28 November 2011 at 7:40 pm    It sucks when anyone is discriminated against based on what they believe and not what they do. GG did something bigoted, therefore unforgivable. What part of that aren’t you understanding BWE? I don’t think you are listening at all, as that should have sunk in after all these posts. All you are doing is preaching your presuppositional idiocy. note the use of the word 'therefore, rich. Take that. I hears ya. -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

Ftk Posts: 2239 Joined: Mar. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 29 2011,09:39    Quote (carlsonjok @ Nov. 28 2011,18:13) So, I wandered over to Pharyngula to see if Bunnygate had reached it's denouement, when what should I spy on the front page but a post about the controversy in Kansas where Governor Brownback came down on a high school student who tweeted unfavorably out him, Sam Brownback: #heblowsalot. And, what should I find 3 comments in?   Quote    Janine, Clueless And Reactionary As Ever, OM, says:    28 November 2011 at 2:05 pm    Sam Brownback: #heblowsalot.    So, homophobic imagery is alright as long as it goes against a wannabe theocrat? The first thing that came to mind was this Onion article. Just for the record on this...my opinion (not that it matters).  I think the Brownback team should have just ignored this completely, or maybe Brownback could have talked to the girl himself privately without any public attention given. But, if this had been my kid and he wrote something that rude, and it was brought to my attention as well as the whole country, I'd have suggested he get his fanny back on that tweet and offer an apology for the way it was stated.  Then he could politely voice his opinions as to why he didn't back Brownback.  I'd do that even if it were PZ he was slamming.  Children should be taught respect...we all turn into ass holes soon enough.  Gotta at least try to instill them with some kind of morals. -------------- "Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

Robin Posts: 1431 Joined: Sep. 2009 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 29 2011,10:08    Quote (Ftk @ Nov. 29 2011,09:39) Quote (carlsonjok @ Nov. 28 2011,18:13) So, I wandered over to Pharyngula to see if Bunnygate had reached it's denouement, when what should I spy on the front page but a post about the controversy in Kansas where Governor Brownback came down on a high school student who tweeted unfavorably out him, Sam Brownback: #heblowsalot. And, what should I find 3 comments in?     Quote    Janine, Clueless And Reactionary As Ever, OM, says:    28 November 2011 at 2:05 pm    Sam Brownback: #heblowsalot.    So, homophobic imagery is alright as long as it goes against a wannabe theocrat? The first thing that came to mind was this Onion article. Just for the record on this...my opinion (not that it matters).  I think the Brownback team should have just ignored this completely, or maybe Brownback could have talked to the girl himself privately without any public attention given. But, if this had been my kid and he wrote something that rude, and it was brought to my attention as well as the whole country, I'd have suggested he get his fanny back on that tweet and offer an apology for the way it was stated.  Then he could politely voice his opinions as to why he didn't back Brownback.  I'd do that even if it were PZ he was slamming.  Children should be taught respect...we all turn into ass holes soon enough.  Gotta at least try to instill them with some kind of morals. When I read or hear declaration like, "children should be taught respect" my immediate reaction is, "why?" More precisely, who exactly is entitled to respect in the absence of behavior that earns respect. I'll say here and now, I do NOT respect institutions or titles. I respect people who earn respect through their actions. Brownbeck is not worthy of any respect as far as I can tell, but I found the actions of Emma Sullivan more than admirable. I respect her (see what I did there?) for her critical thinking skills and for standing up for her actual rights. Brownbeck could actually learn a thing or two from Ms. Sullivan. -------------- we IDists rule in design for the flagellum and cilium largely because they do look designed.  Bilbo The only reason you reject Thor is because, like a cushion, you bear the imprint of the biggest arse that sat on you. Louis

Roland Anderson Posts: 51 Joined: Sep. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 29 2011,10:23    Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Nov. 29 2011,05:28) Quote (Roland Anderson @ Nov. 29 2011,11:21) Quote Reading comprehension much? I never said you asserted anything. You told me to do my research, as if I had asserted something. You made the assertions, you do the research to back them up. So far you haven't produced anything which fits the bill. I wondered if you're interested in pursuing the question of what it is you don't like about the fundamentalist feminists you see on Pharyngula? I would be :-) What I don't like about them? Do you really want to go back to my post and read those quotes from Marcotte and Skeptifem? If you don't see anything wrong with that, you have a serious problem. Non-answer noted.

Roland Anderson Posts: 51 Joined: Sep. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 29 2011,10:26    Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Nov. 29 2011,05:29) Quote (Roland Anderson @ Nov. 29 2011,11:24) Quote (carlsonjok @ Nov. 28 2011,18:13) So, I wandered over to Pharyngula to see if Bunnygate had reached it's denouement, when what should I spy on the front page but a post about the controversy in Kansas where Governor Brownback came down on a high school student who tweeted unfavorably out him, Sam Brownback: #heblowsalot. And, what should I find 3 comments in?     Quote    Janine, Clueless And Reactionary As Ever, OM, says:    28 November 2011 at 2:05 pm    Sam Brownback: #heblowsalot.    So, homophobic imagery is alright as long as it goes against a wannabe theocrat? The first thing that came to mind was this Onion article. OK, so is the imagery homophobic? What do you think? Substance, remember, substance. Louis Armstrong used to blow a lot too. Again, your point? So the imagery isn't homophobic? I feel like I'm playing "20 questions" - give me something here! I want to know what it is you dislike about this.

Schroedinger's Dog Posts: 1692 Joined: Jan. 2009 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 29 2011,10:34    Quote (Roland Anderson @ Nov. 29 2011,17:23) Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Nov. 29 2011,05:28) Quote (Roland Anderson @ Nov. 29 2011,11:21)   Quote Reading comprehension much? I never said you asserted anything. You told me to do my research, as if I had asserted something. You made the assertions, you do the research to back them up. So far you haven't produced anything which fits the bill. I wondered if you're interested in pursuing the question of what it is you don't like about the fundamentalist feminists you see on Pharyngula? I would be :-) What I don't like about them? Do you really want to go back to my post and read those quotes from Marcotte and Skeptifem? If you don't see anything wrong with that, you have a serious problem. Non-answer noted. Ok Roland, let's play: For me, someone endorsing that most men are rapist-wannabes or that any male accused of rape is guilty until proven innocent is just, well, WRONG! Pet peeve, maybe, but still my opinion. Now, let's play silly fucker and look at that quote from Tis'Himself again, since you've given the best non-answer possible: not answering: Quote Would one of you guys pretending the cartoon isn’t sexist please show how it supports women? Come on, you’re all so sure it’s not sexist, so give us some evidence it’s pro-women. Or are you all too intellectually dishonest to deny your male privilege? See any problem there, "Roland"? -------------- "Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G "I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis "The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

Schroedinger's Dog Posts: 1692 Joined: Jan. 2009 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 29 2011,10:35    Quote (Roland Anderson @ Nov. 29 2011,17:26) Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Nov. 29 2011,05:29) Quote (Roland Anderson @ Nov. 29 2011,11:24)   Quote (carlsonjok @ Nov. 28 2011,18:13) So, I wandered over to Pharyngula to see if Bunnygate had reached it's denouement, when what should I spy on the front page but a post about the controversy in Kansas where Governor Brownback came down on a high school student who tweeted unfavorably out him, Sam Brownback: #heblowsalot. And, what should I find 3 comments in?     Quote    Janine, Clueless And Reactionary As Ever, OM, says:    28 November 2011 at 2:05 pm    Sam Brownback: #heblowsalot.    So, homophobic imagery is alright as long as it goes against a wannabe theocrat? The first thing that came to mind was this Onion article. OK, so is the imagery homophobic? What do you think? Substance, remember, substance. Louis Armstrong used to blow a lot too. Again, your point? So the imagery isn't homophobic? I feel like I'm playing "20 questions" - give me something here! I want to know what it is you dislike about this. "Roland", please step away from the internet... -------------- "Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G "I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis "The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

Roland Anderson Posts: 51 Joined: Sep. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 29 2011,10:38    Quote (carlsonjok @ Nov. 29 2011,06:18) [ Quote Quote Quote     Quote    Janine, Clueless And Reactionary As Ever, OM, says:    28 November 2011 at 2:05 pm    Sam Brownback: #heblowsalot.    So, homophobic imagery is alright as long as it goes against a wannabe theocrat? The first thing that came to mind was this Onion article. OK, so is the imagery homophobic? What do you think? Substance, remember, substance. Maybe, maybe not.  It could be homoerotic.  Your hetero-normative bias is showing. The issue, Roland, at least for me, isn't whether a cartoon with a stuffed bunny is a tool of gender oppression, but rather that there are people who spend entirely too much time looking at stuffed bunnies for things to be offended about. Or rather that when a piece of minor but nevertheless real belittling of women's abilities takes place and this is pointed out, the shouting down of the pointing out totally drowns out everything else? I think you're getting rather close here to saying that the people pointing it out are just doing it to annoy you. That position has unfortunate implications in my opinion.

Roland Anderson Posts: 51 Joined: Sep. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 29 2011,10:45    Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Nov. 29 2011,10:34) Quote (Roland Anderson @ Nov. 29 2011,17:23) Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Nov. 29 2011,05:28)   Quote (Roland Anderson @ Nov. 29 2011,11:21)   Quote Reading comprehension much? I never said you asserted anything. You told me to do my research, as if I had asserted something. You made the assertions, you do the research to back them up. So far you haven't produced anything which fits the bill. I wondered if you're interested in pursuing the question of what it is you don't like about the fundamentalist feminists you see on Pharyngula? I would be :-) What I don't like about them? Do you really want to go back to my post and read those quotes from Marcotte and Skeptifem? If you don't see anything wrong with that, you have a serious problem. Non-answer noted. Ok Roland, let's play: For me, someone endorsing that most men are rapist-wannabes or that any male accused of rape is guilty until proven innocent is just, well, WRONG! Pet peeve, maybe, but still my opinion. Now, let's play silly fucker and look at that quote from Tis'Himself again, since you've given the best non-answer possible: not answering: Quote Would one of you guys pretending the cartoon isn’t sexist please show how it supports women? Come on, you’re all so sure it’s not sexist, so give us some evidence it’s pro-women. Or are you all too intellectually dishonest to deny your male privilege? See any problem there, "Roland"? This is a derail. I asked you what *you* don't like about it, not what I do or don't like about it. You are consistently trying to dodge the question. I am not saying everything on Pharyngula is wonderful, or that everyone there is right or wrong or anything. I am asking you to 1) back up your statement that fundamentalist feminists post there, and 2) whether or not there is any fundamentalist feminism going on there or anywhere, what it is you don't like about the posts you quote. Also, please produce a quotation from someone on Pharyngula asserting that most men are rapist-wannabes or that any male accused of rape is guilty until proven innocent. Note that you will also need to show that these quotations, once you produce them, were generally approved of by the regular commentariat in order to ascribe these opinions to "Pharyngula" as a whole.

Roland Anderson Posts: 51 Joined: Sep. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 29 2011,10:46    Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Nov. 29 2011,10:35) Quote (Roland Anderson @ Nov. 29 2011,17:26) Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Nov. 29 2011,05:29)   Quote (Roland Anderson @ Nov. 29 2011,11:24)   Quote (carlsonjok @ Nov. 28 2011,18:13) So, I wandered over to Pharyngula to see if Bunnygate had reached it's denouement, when what should I spy on the front page but a post about the controversy in Kansas where Governor Brownback came down on a high school student who tweeted unfavorably out him, Sam Brownback: #heblowsalot. And, what should I find 3 comments in?       Quote    Janine, Clueless And Reactionary As Ever, OM, says:    28 November 2011 at 2:05 pm    Sam Brownback: #heblowsalot.    So, homophobic imagery is alright as long as it goes against a wannabe theocrat? The first thing that came to mind was this Onion article. OK, so is the imagery homophobic? What do you think? Substance, remember, substance. Louis Armstrong used to blow a lot too. Again, your point? So the imagery isn't homophobic? I feel like I'm playing "20 questions" - give me something here! I want to know what it is you dislike about this. "Roland", please step away from the internet... Very happy to - got to get to the gym soon anyway :-)

Schroedinger's Dog Posts: 1692 Joined: Jan. 2009 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 29 2011,10:49    Quote (Roland Anderson @ Nov. 29 2011,17:45) Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Nov. 29 2011,10:34) Quote (Roland Anderson @ Nov. 29 2011,17:23)   Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Nov. 29 2011,05:28)   Quote (Roland Anderson @ Nov. 29 2011,11:21)     Quote Reading comprehension much? I never said you asserted anything. You told me to do my research, as if I had asserted something. You made the assertions, you do the research to back them up. So far you haven't produced anything which fits the bill. I wondered if you're interested in pursuing the question of what it is you don't like about the fundamentalist feminists you see on Pharyngula? I would be :-) What I don't like about them? Do you really want to go back to my post and read those quotes from Marcotte and Skeptifem? If you don't see anything wrong with that, you have a serious problem. Non-answer noted. Ok Roland, let's play: For me, someone endorsing that most men are rapist-wannabes or that any male accused of rape is guilty until proven innocent is just, well, WRONG! Pet peeve, maybe, but still my opinion. Now, let's play silly fucker and look at that quote from Tis'Himself again, since you've given the best non-answer possible: not answering:   Quote Would one of you guys pretending the cartoon isn’t sexist please show how it supports women? Come on, you’re all so sure it’s not sexist, so give us some evidence it’s pro-women. Or are you all too intellectually dishonest to deny your male privilege? See any problem there, "Roland"? This is a derail. I asked you what *you* don't like about it, not what I do or don't like about it. You are consistently trying to dodge the question. I am not saying everything on Pharyngula is wonderful, or that everyone there is right or wrong or anything. I am asking you to 1) back up your statement that fundamentalist feminists post there, and 2) whether or not there is any fundamentalist feminism going on there or anywhere, what it is you don't like about the posts you quote. Also, please produce a quotation from someone on Pharyngula asserting that most men are rapist-wannabes or that any male accused of rape is guilty until proven innocent. Note that you will also need to show that these quotations, once you produce them, were generally approved of by the regular commentariat in order to ascribe these opinions to "Pharyngula" as a whole. Ok, now you're just trolling, right? -------------- "Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G "I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis "The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

tsig Posts: 339 Joined: Aug. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 29 2011,10:49    Quote (carlsonjok @ Nov. 28 2011,18:13) So, I wandered over to Pharyngula to see if Bunnygate had reached it's denouement, when what should I spy on the front page but a post about the controversy in Kansas where Governor Brownback came down on a high school student who tweeted unfavorably out him, Sam Brownback: #heblowsalot. And, what should I find 3 comments in?   Quote    Janine, Clueless And Reactionary As Ever, OM, says:    28 November 2011 at 2:05 pm    Sam Brownback: #heblowsalot.    So, homophobic imagery is alright as long as it goes against a wannabe theocrat? The first thing that came to mind was this Onion article. If you don't like PZ, his blog or the denizens then don't go there. Spell edit

Schroedinger's Dog Posts: 1692 Joined: Jan. 2009 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 29 2011,10:55    Since I'm a very kind and patient man, I'll try to parse this. Quote This is a derail. I asked you what *you* don't like about it, not what I do or don't like about it. You are consistently trying to dodge the question. I answered: "For me, someone endorsing that most men are rapist-wannabes or that any male accused of rape is guilty until proven innocent is just, well, WRONG!" Problem? Quote I am not saying everything on Pharyngula is wonderful, or that everyone there is right or wrong or anything. I am asking you to 1) back up your statement that fundamentalist feminists post there, and 2) whether or not there is any fundamentalist feminism going on there or anywhere, what it is you don't like about the posts you quote. Again with the Tis'Himself quote, never challenged by any regulars. Problem? Quote Also, please produce a quotation from someone on Pharyngula asserting that most men are rapist-wannabes or that any male accused of rape is guilty until proven innocent. Note that you will also need to show that these quotations, once you produce them, were generally approved of by the regular commentariat in order to ascribe these opinions to "Pharyngula" as a whole. Have you ever been to Pharyngula before?!? -------------- "Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G "I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis "The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

carlsonjok Posts: 3326 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 29 2011,11:01    Quote (Roland Anderson @ Nov. 29 2011,10:38) Or rather that when a piece of minor but nevertheless real belittling of women's abilities takes place and this is pointed out, the shouting down of the pointing out totally drowns out everything else? What exactly are you after?  Every depiction of an unsympathetic character in popular culture must necessarily be male?  Or would you rather that all cartoon characters be Shmoos?   Quote I think you're getting rather close here to saying that the people pointing it out are just doing it to annoy you. That position has unfortunate implications in my opinion. No.  What I am saying is perfectly encapsulated in the paragraph that you didn't quote. Equality won't be obtained by seeking out grievances to nurse, but through achievement. -------------- It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

Roland Anderson Posts: 51 Joined: Sep. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 29 2011,11:05    Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Nov. 29 2011,10:55) Since I'm a very kind and patient man, I'll try to parse this.   Quote This is a derail. I asked you what *you* don't like about it, not what I do or don't like about it. You are consistently trying to dodge the question. I answered: "For me, someone endorsing that most men are rapist-wannabes or that any male accused of rape is guilty until proven innocent is just, well, WRONG!" Problem?   Quote I am not saying everything on Pharyngula is wonderful, or that everyone there is right or wrong or anything. I am asking you to 1) back up your statement that fundamentalist feminists post there, and 2) whether or not there is any fundamentalist feminism going on there or anywhere, what it is you don't like about the posts you quote. Again with the Tis'Himself quote, never challenged by any regulars. Problem?   Quote Also, please produce a quotation from someone on Pharyngula asserting that most men are rapist-wannabes or that any male accused of rape is guilty until proven innocent. Note that you will also need to show that these quotations, once you produce them, were generally approved of by the regular commentariat in order to ascribe these opinions to "Pharyngula" as a whole. Have you ever been to Pharyngula before?!? You're saying that the quote from 'Tis Himself, which I understand is this one: Quote Would one of you guys pretending the cartoon isn’t sexist please show how it supports women? Come on, you’re all so sure it’s not sexist, so give us some evidence it’s pro-women. Or are you all too intellectually dishonest to deny your male privilege? means "most men are wannabe rapists and any male accused of rape is guilty till proven innocent"? Please can you explain your reasoning? Once again, I don't feel my question has been answered. It's because you said the thing you don't like about Pharygula is that people there say most men are wannabe rapists and any male accused of rape is guilty till proven innocent, and that's wrong. Well saying that is wrong, so I'd like you to show me where the Pharyngulites say this and are supported in so doing.

Roland Anderson Posts: 51 Joined: Sep. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 29 2011,11:08    Quote (carlsonjok @ Nov. 29 2011,11:01) Quote (Roland Anderson @ Nov. 29 2011,10:38) Or rather that when a piece of minor but nevertheless real belittling of women's abilities takes place and this is pointed out, the shouting down of the pointing out totally drowns out everything else? What exactly are you after?  Every depiction of an unsympathetic character in popular culture must necessarily be male?  Or would you rather that all cartoon characters be Shmoos?     Quote I think you're getting rather close here to saying that the people pointing it out are just doing it to annoy you. That position has unfortunate implications in my opinion. No.  What I am saying is perfectly encapsulated in the paragraph that you didn't quote. Equality won't be obtained by seeking out grievances to nurse, but through achievement. Here's the paragraph I didn't quote: Quote I work in manufacturing, which, as you might expect, is a male dominated field.  However, throughout my career, I have seen many successful women. I've had the pleasure to work for some, and the honor of promoting the careers of others.  And what was their formula for success?  Well, they didn't spend their time complaining about the patriarchal subtext of the Successories prints that littered the corridor walls.  No, sir. They just put on their big girl pants and got shit done.  Who do you suppose is making a better case for equality? Can you explain why that means that pointing out when something is minorly sexist means you should be shouted down? Hint: it doesn't.

Schroedinger's Dog Posts: 1692 Joined: Jan. 2009 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 29 2011,11:08    Quote (Roland Anderson @ Nov. 29 2011,18:05) Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Nov. 29 2011,10:55) Since I'm a very kind and patient man, I'll try to parse this.   Quote This is a derail. I asked you what *you* don't like about it, not what I do or don't like about it. You are consistently trying to dodge the question. I answered: "For me, someone endorsing that most men are rapist-wannabes or that any male accused of rape is guilty until proven innocent is just, well, WRONG!" Problem?   Quote I am not saying everything on Pharyngula is wonderful, or that everyone there is right or wrong or anything. I am asking you to 1) back up your statement that fundamentalist feminists post there, and 2) whether or not there is any fundamentalist feminism going on there or anywhere, what it is you don't like about the posts you quote. Again with the Tis'Himself quote, never challenged by any regulars. Problem?   Quote Also, please produce a quotation from someone on Pharyngula asserting that most men are rapist-wannabes or that any male accused of rape is guilty until proven innocent. Note that you will also need to show that these quotations, once you produce them, were generally approved of by the regular commentariat in order to ascribe these opinions to "Pharyngula" as a whole. Have you ever been to Pharyngula before?!? You're saying that the quote from 'Tis Himself, which I understand is this one:   Quote Would one of you guys pretending the cartoon isn’t sexist please show how it supports women? Come on, you’re all so sure it’s not sexist, so give us some evidence it’s pro-women. Or are you all too intellectually dishonest to deny your male privilege? means "most men are wannabe rapists and any male accused of rape is guilty till proven innocent"? Please can you explain your reasoning? Once again, I don't feel my question has been answered. It's because you said the thing you don't like about Pharygula is that people there say most men are wannabe rapists and any male accused of rape is guilty till proven innocent, and that's wrong. Well saying that is wrong, so I'd like you to show me where the Pharyngulites say this and are supported in so doing. Mmmmhhh... Where have I said that? -------------- "Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G "I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis "The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

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