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  Topic: Official Uncommonly Dense Discussion Thread< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 13 2006,07:48   

Quote (stevestory @ June 13 2006,12:43)
MarkCC argues that CSI is an oxymoron.

MarkCC needs to be invited onto Panda's Thumb.

That's great blog...

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
jeannot



Posts: 1201
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 13 2006,08:08   

Quote (stevestory @ June 13 2006,12:43)
MarkCC argues that CSI is an oxymoron.

MarkCC needs to be invited onto Panda's Thumb.

I don't agree with his argument that CSI is an oxymoron. Complexity refers to the parts of a system (lots of different parts) whereas specificity refers to its function.  So, a lot of info is required to describe the parts of a system and a few info to describe its function.
To me, the concept is more a tautology very similar to IC : if something looks like it couldn't have evolved (complex) and looks designed for something (specified function), it may have been designed.

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4991
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: June 13 2006,08:16   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ June 13 2006,12:18)
Quote (Mr_Christopher @ June 13 2006,11:23)
WAD's infatuation with Ann Coulter (the ugliest transvestite I have ever seen) is a laff riot.  I love the latest ann love fest thread on UD.

Miles

I think Bill just isn't used to real live (ostensible) girls paying attention to him, much less blond ones, so I think it's just got him all atwitter with excitement.

Now, now... Dembski's wife is quite the looker. She was at the 1997 NTSE conference. IIRC, though, she was brunette.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4991
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: June 13 2006,08:19   

Quote (jeannot @ June 13 2006,13:08)
Quote (stevestory @ June 13 2006,12:43)
MarkCC argues that CSI is an oxymoron.

MarkCC needs to be invited onto Panda's Thumb.

I don't agree with his argument that CSI is an oxymoron. Complexity refers to the parts of a system (lots of different parts) whereas specificity refers to its function.  So, a lot of info is required to describe the parts of a system and a few info to describe its function.
To me, the concept is more a tautology very similar to IC : if something looks like it couldn't have evolved (complex) and looks designed for something (specified function), it may have been designed.

Complexity in Dembski's CSI does NOT refer to "parts of a system". "Complexity" in CSI is just the same as improbability of occurring due to chance or regularity. Nothing about parts there.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 13 2006,08:20   

Wesley:
Quote
Now, now... Dembski's wife is quite the looker.

No surprise. We conservatives get the best chicks.  ;)

--------------
Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
stephenWells



Posts: 127
Joined: April 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 13 2006,08:23   

Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ June 13 2006,13:20)
Wesley:
 
Quote
Now, now... Dembski's wife is quite the looker.

No surprise. We conservatives get the best chicks.  ;)

I, and my wife, disagree with you :)

  
Chris Hyland



Posts: 705
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 13 2006,08:26   

Quote
Complexity in Dembski's CSI does NOT refer to "parts of a system". "Complexity" in CSI is just the same as improbability of occurring due to chance or regularity. Nothing about parts there.

This seems to be the most overlooked point. It is absolutely impossible to calculate the probability of the evolution of the flagellum. In No Free Lunch Dembski calculates the probabilty that all of the proteins in the flagellum formed at the same time from random combinations of amino acids. Any other criticism is unessecary, if fun.

  
GCT



Posts: 1001
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 13 2006,08:28   

Quote (stevestory @ June 13 2006,10:54)
Quote

Where do they find these people?


Dembski drives the bus around looking for the kids in the pro-tec helmets.


That is hilarious.

  
Spike



Posts: 49
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 13 2006,08:47   

Quote
Dembski drives the bus around looking for the kids in the pro-tec helmets.


Except they are smart enought to avoid him.

  
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 13 2006,08:50   

ya know, UD often makes me think i need to go out for a beer...

in fact:

http://www.physorg.com/news69380566.html

40's for everybody!

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
Bob O'H



Posts: 2564
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 13 2006,09:21   

Quote (Ichthyic @ June 13 2006,13:50)
ya know, UD often makes me think i need to go out for a beer...

in fact:

http://www.physorg.com/news69380566.html

40's for everybody!

Just remember to drink plenty of coffee, too.

Bob

--------------
It is fun to dip into the various threads to watch cluelessness at work in the hands of the confident exponent. - Soapy Sam (so say we all)

   
JMX



Posts: 27
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 13 2006,09:34   

Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ June 13 2006,13:20)
Wesley:
     
Quote
Now, now... Dembski's wife is quite the looker.

No surprise. We conservatives get the best chicks.  ;)


Oh yeah? Let's take a closer look: :D

Evo:



Tara C. Smith, Aetiology blog

vs.

Creo:





Denyse O'Leary, Post Darwinist blog :

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 13 2006,09:41   

There's something about holding a fish...



--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
GCT



Posts: 1001
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 13 2006,09:44   

For all the Coulterophiles over at UD:

http://rudepundit.blogspot.com/2006....ne.html

Of course, Dembski also cuts-and-pastes without citing, but at least he does it from his own work.

  
Mr_Christopher



Posts: 1238
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 13 2006,10:01   

Quote (jeannot @ June 13 2006,12:29)
We often reproach IDers for their personal attacks. I'm not sure you should imitate them.

(to Christopher, Richard and Arden).

A socially cohesive perspective to be sure.  However, when it comes to Anne the Man, I am powerless over my ability to not stop making fun of "her".  

Perhaps I should join a 12 step religion or seek some other sort of help for it...

--------------
Uncommon Descent is a moral cesspool, a festering intellectual ghetto that intoxicates and degrades its inhabitants - Stephen Matheson

  
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 13 2006,10:06   

I wonder if Denyse knows the real history of that symbol on the front of her book?

http://www.halexandria.org/dward097.htm

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
jeannot



Posts: 1201
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 13 2006,10:07   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ June 13 2006,13:19)
Complexity in Dembski's CSI does NOT refer to "parts of a system". "Complexity" in CSI is just the same as improbability of occurring due to chance or regularity. Nothing about parts there.

But doesn't this probability depends on the number and/or arrangement of parts?

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 13 2006,10:08   

from

http://www.uncommondescent.com/index.php/archives/1213#comment-43396

Quote
chapters on ID are excellent - she gives a clearer and simpler exposition of Dempski,...


Dempski as predicted by steve story before!

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 13 2006,10:15   

Quote
There's something about holding a fish...


indeed there is!

have you embraced your inner fish today?



--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 13 2006,13:21   


   
clamboy



Posts: 299
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 13 2006,16:20   

My wife (not I) just said, "Ann Coulter is the Republican equivalent of Nancy Spungeon, only with looser morals and fewer brain cells." Then she said something about end-stage syphilis. Then she double-dog dared me to start a thread titled "Ann Coulter is so loose..." followed by something about squat thrusts on a fire hydrant being hampered by knee callouses.

Again, not me, my wife. Notice that *I* am not engaging in personal attacks.

  
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 13 2006,17:22   

Clammy-

your wife sounds like a goer!

why not invite her to start the thread herself?

I'm sure many here would get a kick out of it.

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
Rilke's Granddaughter



Posts: 311
Joined: Jan. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 13 2006,18:25   

Quote (Chris Hyland @ June 13 2006,13:26)
Quote
Complexity in Dembski's CSI does NOT refer to "parts of a system". "Complexity" in CSI is just the same as improbability of occurring due to chance or regularity. Nothing about parts there.

This seems to be the most overlooked point. It is absolutely impossible to calculate the probability of the evolution of the flagellum. In No Free Lunch Dembski calculates the probabilty that all of the proteins in the flagellum formed at the same time from random combinations of amino acids. Any other criticism is unessecary, if fun.

That's what has always struck me about CSI: if something is designed, then there is no pathway from which a probability can be calculated.

In other words, you cannot, by definition, calculate CSI.  'tis impossible.  Or, more accurately:

If you can calculate it, then it's not designed.

If you can't calculate it, then you can't use the filter to determine if it's designed.

It simply amazes me that Dembski is so mind-bogglingly stupid.

  
Rilke's Granddaughter



Posts: 311
Joined: Jan. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 13 2006,18:29   

Quote (jeannot @ June 13 2006,15:07)
Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ June 13 2006,13:19)
Complexity in Dembski's CSI does NOT refer to "parts of a system". "Complexity" in CSI is just the same as improbability of occurring due to chance or regularity. Nothing about parts there.

But doesn't this probability depends on the number and/or arrangement of parts?

No.  Dembski is quite clear: the complexity is simply the inverse of the probability of that 'entity' having occured through unintelligent algorithms and chance.  The number of parts argument is entirely from Behe.

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 13 2006,18:37   

Quote

It simply amazes me that Dembski is so mind-bogglingly stupid.


Dembski isn't stupid. Ann Coulter isn't stupid. Neither believes what they say. They know that their fan base Is mind-bogglingly stupid, and they know there is plenty of money to be made off the rubes.

If I had an 'honest face', I would have been a televangelist a decade ago. Unfortunately, my features convey the 'dishonest snake' impression you see in Peter Lorre type characters. It's all very superficial.

   
Rilke's Granddaughter



Posts: 311
Joined: Jan. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 13 2006,18:40   

Quote (stevestory @ June 13 2006,23:37)
Quote

It simply amazes me that Dembski is so mind-bogglingly stupid.


Dembski isn't stupid. Ann Coulter isn't stupid. Neither believes what they say. They know that their fan base Is mind-bogglingly stupid, and they know there is plenty of money to be made off the rubes.

If I had an 'honest face', I would have been a televangelist a decade ago. Unfortunately, my features convey the 'dishonest snake' impression you see in Peter Lorre type characters. It's all very superficial.

But did Dembski get into this whole thing strictly to make money?  In that case he's a dishonest, hypocritical git.  if he honestly believes in what he says, then he's a moron.

How do we parse this?  :D

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 13 2006,18:42   

Maybe it's like Bob Park suggests in Voodoo Science : The Road from Foolishness to Fraud. They start out believing themselves, after a while they understand they're wrong, but by then they've found money-making opportunities.

   
clamboy



Posts: 299
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 13 2006,19:16   

Ichthyic - my wife would like to be flattered by being called a "goer," if only she know what it meant. As for her starting a thread here, I think she enjoys being on the sidelines more, musing about what miracle of circumstance at Ann Coulter's birth led Ms. Coulter to her current lofty position, instead of "doing donkey shows in Tijuana," then opining that "being the Republican party's hosebag is probably pretty much the same. Perhaps even worse, I don't know, but I know which one I'd choose." My wife has, though, offered up a supernatural explanation for Ann Coulter. She maintains that Ann Coulter is God's punishment against Republicans for their lackluster response to the AIDS crisis, since Ann Coulter is "so diseased, and so loose, that she could take on the entire Republican party at once, thus effectively taking them out all at once."

Again, please note that I am merely relaying my wife's thoughts. I explained this thread, and its current Ann Coulter theme, and my wife calmly and rationally explained her perspective on Ms. Coulter. I remain solely a messenger.

  
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 13 2006,19:27   

Quote
my wife would like to be flattered by being called a "goer"


in this context, I meant it as a description of someone who apparently has a stong opinion about things and isn't afraid to share it.

(not in the monty python sense :) )

Quote
...and my wife calmly and rationally explained her perspective


uh huh.  Somehow, I form a picture in my mind that is anything but calm...

I sympathize.  I often wanted to "calmly and rationally" explain a few things to Ms. Coulter myself.  Rush Limbaugh too.

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
djmullen



Posts: 327
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 14 2006,00:41   

Although slightly off topic, I'll mention this here since Dembski endorsed it on his blog: Mike Gene is coming out with a book, titled "The Design Matrix".  Go to www.telicthoughts.com to see a very pretty animation advertising it.  

How can you tell this is an ID book?  Because the animation finishes with a crash of thunder, followed a second later by a flash of lightning.

Only in IDland.

  
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