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silverspoon



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Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 18 2008,14:44   

Where does Luskin get this from?

In his EV news & views column he wrote:

 
Quote
Pigliucci's comment sure sounds like damage control. In fact, according to Suzan Mazur, a journalist experienced in covering evolution who was invited to report on the conference, there is patently politically-motivated damage control taking place.

(my bolding)

According to Pigliucci journalists were not invited. Help me out here, ftk. Is Luskin mistaken yet again?

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JohnW



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(Permalink) Posted: July 18 2008,15:22   

Quote (silverspoon @ July 18 2008,12:44)
Where does Luskin get this from?

In his EV news & views column he wrote:

   
Quote
Pigliucci's comment sure sounds like damage control. In fact, according to Suzan Mazur, a journalist experienced in covering evolution who was invited to report on the conference, there is patently politically-motivated damage control taking place.

(my bolding)

According to Pigliucci journalists were not invited. Help me out here, ftk. Is Luskin mistaken yet again?

Luskin doesn't say who did the inviting.

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Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
silverspoon



Posts: 123
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(Permalink) Posted: July 18 2008,15:36   

Quote (JohnW @ July 18 2008,15:22)
Luskin doesn't say who did the inviting.

I suppose all we can do is guess. We can start by listing those who we know didn’t invite Mazur and work backwards from there. I’ll strike the Archduke Franz Ferdinand off the list for starters.

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Nerull



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(Permalink) Posted: July 18 2008,20:09   

I knew it.

I can predict FTKs every move! Time to call up JREF....

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To rebut creationism you pretty much have to be a biologist, chemist, geologist, philosopher, lawyer and historian all rolled into one. While to advocate creationism, you just have to be an idiot. -- tommorris

   
olegt



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(Permalink) Posted: July 19 2008,10:47   

This week's Science has a two-page story on the Altenberg workshop Evolution: Modernizing the Modern Synthesis by Elizabeth Pennisi.  A tease:
Quote
Massimo Pigliucci is no Jimi Hendrix. This soft-spoken evolutionary biologist from Stony Brook University in New York state looks nothing like that radical hard-rock musician whose dramatic guitar solos helped revolutionize rock 'n'roll. But to Suzan Mazur, a veteran journalist who occasionally covers science, Pigliucci is the headliner this week at a small meeting she believes will be the equivalent of Woodstock for evolutionary biology. The invitation-only conference, being held in Altenberg, Austria, "promises to be far more transforming for the world" than the 1969 music festival, Mazur wrote online in March for Scoop.co.nz, an independent news publication in New Zealand.

That hyperbole has reverberated throughout the evolutionary biology community, putting Pigliucci and the 15 other participants at the forefront of a debate over whether ideas about evolution need updating. The mere mention of the "Altenberg 16," as Mazur dubbed the group, causes some evolutionary biologists to roll their eyes. It's a joke, says Jerry Coyne of the University of Chicago in Illinois. "I don't think there's anything that needs fixing." Mazur's attention, Pigliucci admits, "frankly caused me embarrassment."


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olegt



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(Permalink) Posted: July 19 2008,11:00   

I went back to check Luskin's post and Mazur's story to which Luskin linked.  
Quote

According to Mazur, the same thing happened to Altenberg 16 participant chemist and engineer Stuart Pivar: "Stuart Pivar has been investigating self-organization in living forms but thinks natural selection is irrelevant – and has paid the price for this on the blogosphere." Once again, Mazur reveals that Darwinists are commonly intolerant towards people who doubt Darwin:

Quote
Pivar's also a keen observer of some of the conflicts of interest tainting science. He accuses the National Academy of Sciences of excluding other approaches to evolution but natural selection in their recent book Science, Education and Creationism.


Mazur also reports that Altenberg 16 participant, Rutgers philosopher Jerry Fodor, "essentially argues that biologists increasingly see the central story of Darwin as wrong in a way that can’t be repaired." Mazur recounts that Michael Ruse condemned Fodor for even printing such thoughts in a mainstream publication – not because of the empirical data, but because of politics: In Ruse's words, "to write a piece slagging off natural selection in that way, is to give a piece of candy to the creationists." Apparently Ruse would suggest that scientists banish from their minds—and certainly from their pens—any real doubts about the sufficiency of natural selection, for purely political reasons.

Guess what? Mazur never identified either Fodor or Pivar as participants in the Altenberg workshop.  That's Casey's totally own, unforced error.  

Most likely he read another of Mazur's articles on the subject, which lists the "Altenberg 16" with photographs and then shows a few more photos of people unrelated to the workshop, Fodor and Pivar among them.  

Discovery Institute should fire those fact checkers.  On second thought, maybe they should hire them in the first place.

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Arden Chatfield



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(Permalink) Posted: July 19 2008,11:14   

Quote (olegt @ July 19 2008,09:00)
I went back to check Luskin's post and Mazur's story to which Luskin linked.  
   
Quote

According to Mazur, the same thing happened to Altenberg 16 participant chemist and engineer Stuart Pivar: "Stuart Pivar has been investigating self-organization in living forms but thinks natural selection is irrelevant – and has paid the price for this on the blogosphere." Once again, Mazur reveals that Darwinists are commonly intolerant towards people who doubt Darwin:

   
Quote
Pivar's also a keen observer of some of the conflicts of interest tainting science. He accuses the National Academy of Sciences of excluding other approaches to evolution but natural selection in their recent book Science, Education and Creationism.


Mazur also reports that Altenberg 16 participant, Rutgers philosopher Jerry Fodor, "essentially argues that biologists increasingly see the central story of Darwin as wrong in a way that can’t be repaired." Mazur recounts that Michael Ruse condemned Fodor for even printing such thoughts in a mainstream publication – not because of the empirical data, but because of politics: In Ruse's words, "to write a piece slagging off natural selection in that way, is to give a piece of candy to the creationists." Apparently Ruse would suggest that scientists banish from their minds—and certainly from their pens—any real doubts about the sufficiency of natural selection, for purely political reasons.

Guess what? Mazur never identified either Fodor or Pivar as participants in the Altenberg workshop.  That's Casey's totally own, unforced error.  

Most likely he read another of Mazur's articles on the subject, which lists the "Altenberg 16" with photographs and then shows a few more photos of people unrelated to the workshop, Fodor and Pivar among them.  

Discovery Institute should fire those fact checkers.  On second thought, maybe they should hire them in the first place.

Jerry Fodor? He's a cognitive scientist who spends time in linguistics. He's not a friggin biologist.

Next week the IDers should enlist some hydrological engineers and tax lawyers to make pronouncements on the weaknesses of 'Darwin'.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
silverspoon



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(Permalink) Posted: July 19 2008,11:30   

Quote (olegt @ July 19 2008,11:00)
 Discovery Institute should fire those fact checkers.  On second thought, maybe they should hire them in the first place.

Well, you see, you can trust everything you read at the evolution news-org. All you need do is read what’s at the bottom of each post there.
Quote
The misreporting of the evolution issue is one key reason for this site. Unfortunately, much of the news coverage has been sloppy, inaccurate, and in some cases, overtly biased. Evolution News & Views presents analysis of that coverage, as well as original reporting that accurately delivers information about the current state of the debate over Darwinian evolution.


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carlsonjok



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(Permalink) Posted: July 19 2008,11:57   

Quote (olegt @ July 19 2008,10:47)
This week's Science has a two-page story on the Altenberg workshop Evolution: Modernizing the Modern Synthesis by Elizabeth Pennisi.  A tease:  
Quote
Massimo Pigliucci is no Jimi Hendrix. This soft-spoken evolutionary biologist from Stony Brook University in New York state

One has to wonder if he has ever crossed paths with this fellow (of the world renowned Discovery Institute).

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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
carlsonjok



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(Permalink) Posted: July 19 2008,11:58   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ July 19 2008,11:14)
Next week the IDers should enlist some hydrological engineers

Like Walt Brown?

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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
olegt



Posts: 1405
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 19 2008,18:07   

Quote (silverspoon @ July 18 2008,14:44)
Where does Luskin get this from?

In his EV news & views column he wrote:

   
Quote
Pigliucci's comment sure sounds like damage control. In fact, according to Suzan Mazur, a journalist experienced in covering evolution who was invited to report on the conference, there is patently politically-motivated damage control taking place.

(my bolding)

According to Pigliucci journalists were not invited. Help me out here, ftk. Is Luskin mistaken yet again?

Again, it appears quite likely that Luskin misunderstood what Mazur was saying.  Here's an excerpt from Mazur's article Altenberg 16: An Exposé Of The Evolution Industry cited by Luskin:
Quote
Pigliucci again brought up the subject of the Austrian talks at our meeting and suggested I contact organizers in Europe to see if press was being invited. Later realizing something extraordinary might be brewing, I contacted Konrad Lorenz Institute.

     I got Werner Callebaut on the phone. Callebaut is a Belgian philosopher and KLI’s scientific manager. He was friendly – like his autobiography on the institute’s web site – and told me that he knew the paper I was writing the evolution debate piece for. He also said that one or two journalists did attend KLI sessions sometimes.

     Callebaut has been involved with KLI workshops for years. He knows the public is interested in such intellectual events and he has coordinated radio shows of these kinds of brainstorming conversations in the past. Callebaut’s Altenberg paper is on non-centrality of the gene.

     I next received the letter of invitation from KLI that was originally sent to A-16 scientists. It was signed by Massimo Pigliucci and Gerd Mueller and described the talks as "a major event" and "a major stepping stone for the entire field of evolutionary biology".

[Emphasis mine --OT]

One might conclude from the last paragraph that Mazur was invited.  That wasn't the case, however.  She simply had a copy of the invitation letter sent previously to the 16 participants.  Here's yet another of Mazur's articles, The Invite -- "Altenberg 16" Evolution Summit, containing the invitation letter in full.  This paragraph makes it clear that the letter is addressed to the participants and not to a journalist:
Quote
The goals of the workshop are two-fold: first, to bring a highly stimulating group of people together in Vienna to foster an open dialogue about the MS and the EES. Second, to produce a high-impact edited book (published by MIT Press), having the ambitious aim of providing a laboratory for ideas about what the EES might eventually look like. Since the intention is to have the book out for the Darwin anniversary year 2009, a prerequisite for accepting participation will be to agree to have a manuscript ready for the time of the workshop.


Casey, you're overworked.  Slow down, dude.

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Reed



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(Permalink) Posted: July 19 2008,21:03   

Quote (olegt @ July 19 2008,16:07)
Again, it appears quite likely that Luskin misunderstood what Mazur was saying.

Nice catch
 
Quote

Casey, you're overworked.  Slow down, dude.

Hey now. The tard must flow, whatever the cost ;)

  
slpage



Posts: 349
Joined: June 2004

(Permalink) Posted: July 20 2008,13:59   

Quote (Ftk @ July 18 2008,07:36)
I'm going to try to get in touch with this Mazur chick and find out what's really going on here.  I've never heard of the gal in the ID camp, so I don't know why she would be out to stick it to you guys.  It certainly couldn't be good for her career to do so.  We've all seen you guys throw around the crank/liar/insane label often enough to know that you'll work at destroying her reputation as a journalist if she questions your theory.

Of course, I guess it makes sense that the "16" wouldn't allow Pivar or Fodor to comment or participate in any way since they actually question the extent to which the ToE is a viable theory.  

DO NOT QUESTION AUTHORITY.  Bow before Darwin you fools!

As you bow down to Brown?  And Cordova?  And Behe?  And whoever else with irrelevant qualifications who also happens to be a bible-nut happens to spew some erroneous gibberish that props up your religioous fantasies and martyr complex?

Sorry - only creationuts are that weak willed and brainwashable.  Pity that your superior morals continue to allow you to endorse and promulgate fabrications.

  
slpage



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(Permalink) Posted: July 20 2008,14:03   

Quote (Chayanov @ July 18 2008,11:39)
First the Altenberg 16 were going to put all us Darwinists in our place.

 
Quote
We see an upheavel occuring again as ID is breaking it's way into the scientific community and evolutionists are coming to the realization that their theory is inadequate in explaining our existence.  

Don't believe me?......Consider the upcoming meeting of "The Altenberg 16"


But now it seems they're also part of the conspiracy.

 
Quote
Of course, I guess it makes sense that the "16" wouldn't allow Pivar or Fodor to comment or participate in any way since they actually question the extent to which the ToE is a viable theory.


And in other news, we have always been at war with Eastasia.

Hilarious.

These people (creationuts and their kind) are so laughably predictable and dense.

Just as Judge Jones was 'one of us' who was going to put 'Darwinnism' in its place, until he looked at the evidence and declared ID to be creationism to be non-scientific and suddenly he was a left-wing activist...

Retards.

Sorry, but that is the only word that comes to mind when I consider folks like FtK.

  
Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: July 20 2008,20:43   

Quote (silverspoon @ July 18 2008,15:44)
Where does Luskin get this from?

Same place he gets everything else:

His butt.

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



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(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 22 2008,02:53   

Quote
Does evolution have any practical benefits for science? In this episode of ID the Future, Casey Luskin reveals that the answer, surprisingly, is no. Listen as Luskin discusses past biological discoveries, reviews recent surveys of biologists, and quotes several scientists, including noted Professor of Biology and intelligent design critic Jerry Coyne. All three sources agree: the theory of evolution has yielded few practical benefits for scientific discovery.


 
Quote
Casey Luskin reveals that the answer, surprisingly, is no

 
Quote
the theory of evolution has yielded few practical benefits for scientific discovery

http://www.idthefuture.com/

It's always amazed me how IDiots can't see the difference between "none" and "few".

Also seen in the "there are very few beneficial mutations" argument. So, not "none" then?

How many practical benefits has intelligent design brought to the table?

None!

Not "few".

None!

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I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
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if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
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midwifetoad



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(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 22 2008,15:22   

It did move biology and geology out of the realm of stamp collecting. Or, to use Darwin's metaphor, pebble counting.

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stevestory



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(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 25 2008,19:57   

Like a cat spotting a disabled mouse, Erv sees a new Casey Luskin post and thinks NOM NOM NOM!

   
ERV



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(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 25 2008,22:43   

Quote (stevestory @ Aug. 25 2008,19:57)
Like a cat spotting a disabled mouse, Erv sees a new Casey Luskin post and thinks NOM NOM NOM!

I made that post in between time-points in the experiment Im running today-- I cant believe it makes any sense... LOL!

  
stevestory



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(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 25 2008,23:04   

if you are a blogger like ERV or Afarensis feel free to put links to your stuff here. It'll give us more to do. The ID folks haven't been doing much lately.

   
Timothy McDougald



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(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 27 2008,21:53   

Quote (stevestory @ Aug. 25 2008,23:04)
if you are a blogger like ERV or Afarensis feel free to put links to your stuff here. It'll give us more to do. The ID folks haven't been doing much lately.

Here is one...


Notice the dedication...

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Church burning ebola boy

FTK: I Didn't answer your questions because it beats the hell out of me.

PaV: I suppose for me to be pried away from what I do to focus long and hard on that particular problem would take, quite honestly, hundreds of thousands of dollars to begin to pique my interest.

   
J-Dog



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(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 28 2008,07:55   

Quote (afarensis @ Aug. 27 2008,21:53)
Quote (stevestory @ Aug. 25 2008,23:04)
if you are a blogger like ERV or Afarensis feel free to put links to your stuff here. It'll give us more to do. The ID folks haven't been doing much lately.

Here is one...


Notice the dedication...

What a Beautiful dedication.
Excuse me while I go hurl....But Srsly - good stuff dude!  

In the big picture, it looks like Luskin is a True Beliver™ and it colors every post he makes.  

OR,

Is he just in it for the money, and if he doesn't make a fool out of himself 10 times a month for the DI, he's out on the street, and forced to get a real job?

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Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
bort



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 02 2008,22:45   

Quote (stevestory @ Aug. 25 2008,23:04)
if you are a blogger like ERV or Afarensis feel free to put links to your stuff here. It'll give us more to do. The ID folks haven't been doing much lately.

Okay, here is my take on Luskin's ERVs

  
Richardthughes



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 02 2008,22:47   

Quote (bort @ Sep. 02 2008,22:45)
Quote (stevestory @ Aug. 25 2008,23:04)
if you are a blogger like ERV or Afarensis feel free to put links to your stuff here. It'll give us more to do. The ID folks haven't been doing much lately.

Okay, here is my take on Luskin's ERVs

Welcome! Great first post and great Blog.

ETA:

http://nondiscovery.wordpress.com/evolution-resources/

*cough cough*

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bort



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 03 2008,10:07   

Quote
Welcome! Great first post and great Blog.
Thanks, and yes the resources page has been updated.  

I usually peruse the Discovery Institute's blogs to try to find their most ridiculous post.  Funny how it is usually Casey Luskin.  Well, sometimes Anika Smith provides some absurdity.  I am continuously amazed at how Luskin, with no real biological credentials, feels like he can tell others about evolutionary theory.

  
Richardthughes



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 03 2008,10:23   

I know - everyone knows you need an engineering degree for that!*


*Or just be an engineer, really.

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"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
KCdgw



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 03 2008,15:07   

Quote
Rather, ID predicts function because the basis for ID's predictions is observations of how intelligent agents design things, and intelligent agents tend to design objects that perform some kind of function.


So..what's the function of the human chin again?

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JohnW



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 03 2008,15:14   

Quote (KCdgw @ Sep. 03 2008,13:07)
Quote
Rather, ID predicts function because the basis for ID's predictions is observations of how intelligent agents design things, and intelligent agents tend to design objects that perform some kind of function.


So..what's the function of the human chin again?

It's to grow a beard on, if you're Louis' mother.

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Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 03 2008,16:11   

Afternoon Delight With The Discovery Institute

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
intelekshual



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 03 2008,20:47   

Luskin's as much of a fanatic and lunatic in person as he is in writing.

  
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