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Antievolution.org Discussion Board > From the Panda's Thumb > After the Bar Closes... > fundie xtian to liberal xtain to agnostic to athei

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stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2006,12:27    Quote I share your views. I went from fundie xtian to liberal xtain to agnostic to atheist (in 6 sec flat - just had to say that) - in about a year. I'm glad I didn't have to go through what must have been a very painful event. For whatever reason I just never bought it in the first place. I was a very skeptical and contrary kid. Never believed in ghosts, Santa Claus, god, or any similar mythical creatures.

tacitus Posts: 118 Joined: May 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2006,19:57    I was brought up in the UK in a liberal Christian home.  Went (was dragged) to church as a kid but, for my family, religion was pretty much just a Sunday morning thing. I still went to church as a young adult, but began to feel there was something missing--that "something missing" I've heard  fundamentalists complain about when they go to more liberal services.  There had to be something more, well, experiential to worshipping God.  Well, I found that "something more" when I came to the States, but there was a catch--it came with a lot of unbelievable anti-intellectual baggage: creationism, Biblical inerrancy, original sin, the Word-Faith movement, and on and on. And so over a couple of years began to explore the rationale behind the Christian religion, and found it to be full of holes. For example, if Christians really believed in the age of accountability (i.e. all dead babies go to Heaven) then why do they oppose abortion when, if allowed to come to term and grow up to be adults, those fetuses stand a very good chance of going to ####? Why do we only have an infinitessimal amount to time (compared with eternity) to make a decision which, if we get wrong, condemns us to an unending #### of pain, anguish and torture?  Because some ancient book tells us we deserve it??? Why do I have to shut down my brain and stop relying on logic to analyse the world around me if I'm to become a "real Christian", not just one of those wishy-washy liberal types? And so on. It took me longer than a year, but eventually I decided I had become an atheist... thank you America.

Russell Posts: 1082 Joined: April 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 26 2006,09:33    Tacitus: Quote It took me longer than a year, but eventually I decided I had become an atheist... thank you America. We've had this discussion before about American religiosity, and the perception of American religiosity by the rest of the western world. I would not have predicted that going from the sort of low-key, pro forma Christianity of Europe to the more intense, urgent version in America (my perception, anyway) would result in atheism. But maybe it does make sense. In the previous discussion, I think I made the point that as long as religion is quietly simmering along on "the back burner", it's easy to say "It must be true, in some sense", and leave it at that. But if you're aggressively confronted with preposterous claims, and forced to decide, a lot of potential "in-some-sensers" will opt out altogether. By the way, what's the "word-faith" movement? -------------- Must... not... scratch... mosquito bite.

tacitus Posts: 118 Joined: May 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 26 2006,09:54    Russell, I guess it's quite likely I would have become an atheist if I'd have stayed in the UK, but it probably would have taken a lot longer. I get the sense that the more confrontational, in-your-face aspects of American Christianity does force more people to decide one way or the other and not just remain on the fence.  Certainly you see it translated in to the bitter debates over gay marriage and abortion, and is probably responsible for the continued health of the Christian church in the USA especially when compared with what's happening in other western nations. "Word-Faith" is sometimes called "name it, claim it" theology and represents some of the worst excesses of American Christianity.  Essentially they use certain Bible passage to claim that if you have enough faith, you can claim something you want to be yours--usually health or wealth. It's a very selfish philosophy and crooks like Benny Hinn, Robert Tilton, and Pat Robertson all use it to play on people's greed to get them to send in money to their "ministries".  Viewers are bombarded by video clips of people who were "faithful" enough to send them money (sometimes their last few dollars) on the promise that God will reward them 10-fold or even 100-fold with anything they ask him for--a healing or money.   It's a bold faced scam which people should be able to see through in a nanosecond.  Why would TV ministries have to beg viewers for funds if all they had to do was give a small amount to another good cause and request that they be rewarded 100-fold?  A 10,000% return on your investment should be enough for any business!

C.J.O'Brien Posts: 395 Joined: Aug. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 26 2006,10:09    My experience was quite similar to stevestory's. Despite regular enforced church attendance for most of my childhood, I never really believed (in God). One significant exception, though: you might say they got me with Santy Claus, and I never fell for it again. -------------- The is the beauty of being me- anything that any man does I can understand. --Joe G

Aardvark Posts: 134 Joined: Feb. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 26 2006,10:22    I would say that the 'exposure' element works both ways, depending on the character of the individual.   Some people can be 'forced' to go to church for 20 years and still end up rejecting it, while it seems like others are unconvertable after  the slightest exposure.

BWE Posts: 1902 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 26 2006,11:12    I was raised without official religion. I remember as a child filling in the name of my church in school documents. (In those days that was important information for the school, like your credit score is now). My mom told me the name of the church we went to, but it was a lie. We’d never been to church. I take that back. According to my parents, I was taken to church once when I was two. I screamed the whole time in nursery school or wherever they take babies who might scream, and the nice lady who probably also ran the potlucks and other church functions asked my parents not to bring me back.  And because that was a church close to home, the name of the church I was supposed to fill out was far away. One that none of the other kids in the school probably went to. That was my first impression of religion; something you needed to tell people you did because they expected it of you. Not because you really did it. Religion is about filling in boxes. I knew two families with kids who were Christian. I just figured it was their flavor of insanity and didn’t think much of it. I guess I figured it was harmless. The only two times it ever entered my life were when my dad asked one of the neighbor kids if Jesus or Superman was stronger and when my other Christian friend and I read his Christian comic books up in his room.  In hindsight, those were both pretty funny experiences.  Riding home in the backseat of our Oldsmobile station wagon- the great big kind from the late sixties/ early seventies- and seven year old Billy was talking about Jesus.  My dad asked him who was stronger, Jesus or Superman. Billy immediately answered “Jesus”.  My dad responded, “but Superman can fly”.  That stumped Billy. I wonder if he ever thought about that question again. The other time, I stayed the night at my other Christian friend’s house. We read his Christian comics while he told me about god. The comics had the evil Satanists imbued with supernatural powers fueled by their blood sacrifices and so on pitted against the weak and lowly Christians who only had one power and it seemed like a pretty pathetic power to me.  They could call on Jesus when they were captured by the powerful Satanists and the Satanists would die. The Satanist had super strength from their god.  The Christians had squat. When I suggested to my friend that the Satanists seemed like they had the better deal, he replied, “but the Christians can kill the Satanists!” So the lesson I took away from that was avoiding Christians if you happen to be a Satanist. They want to kill you.   And although in reflection I realize that many of my neighbors might have believed in god or even really been Christians I only knew two neighbors who actively went to church. Granted I lived in the country and neighbors were far apart, but still the bulk of the people I knew, the other kids that is, did not go to church and were not familiar with the elements of the Bible. I did read the Bible, mostly because I was a kid who liked to read, but I never thought of it as anything other than fiction; old stories told by people who didn’t have the benefit of the modern experience- the understanding of planetary motions, particle physics and evolution.  I guess I really thought of religion as anachronistic.  One consequence of this was that my spiritual life was wholly made up by me. I contemplated the nature of the universe and the nature of time and the nature of existence based on my own observations, my own reading and my own feelings.   Imagine my surprise when I got to college pursuing a science degree. -------------- Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered When wished on the morning star Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it Look what it's done so far The Daily Wingnut

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 26 2006,12:32    Quote Why do we only have an infinitessimal amount to time (compared with eternity) to make a decision which, if we get wrong, condemns us to an unending #### of pain, anguish and torture?  Because some ancient book tells us we deserve it??? We have the idea of eternal torture because it was compatible with the ethical systems of the primitives who wrote the bible. Since we're not barbarians anymore, we find the barbarian laws unpleasant. Let me rephrase that. Those of us who aren't barbarians find those barbarian laws unpleasant. Some people still are barbarians, and will murder for their god. It's no surprise to me that people who commit to living by the barbarian book are more supportive of barbarism.

Arden Chatfield Posts: 6657 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 26 2006,13:12    Both of my parents were raised Catholic, my father especially. However, by the time I came along, they'd started to really burn out on it, due to some of the more aggressive social pressures to conform that always seem to accompany Catholicism in small town America. My parents saw loads of examples of people being quite cruel to others due to people being perceived as 'not good Catholics', so when my parents finally moved a certain geographic distance away from their parents, they dropped it like a hot brick. I was 5 at the time, and hadn't gotten anything like the big walloping dose of Catholicism (and parochial schools) that my older siblings did. The result of all this was that we quit going to any kind of church and my mother became EXTREMELY anti-organized religion, which influenced me a lot. That's one favor I owe my folks. Then when I was in my mid-30's, I became a Buddhist, but that's another story. -------------- "Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

Fross Posts: 71 Joined: Mar. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 27 2006,11:19    Are any of you guys parents?  My son is about to turn four, and he's as skeptical as you can get on the subject of God, angels, Santa, Easter Bunny ect.   Basically if he can't see them, he's very skeptical about it.   On the other hand, he is always afraid of "spooks" as he calls them.  (ghost and monsters in his closet)   We have to pound it in his head that he's just using his imagination.  Like he'll run out of a darkened hallway screaming with fear "i'm using my imagination again!" with slight tears in his eyes. When we get to the subject of Santa, Angels, E. Bunny, etc. he tells us that that's just our imagination.   As a parent, I get mixed emotions on when to trick him into believing something that's not real.  We're trying to get him to believe Santa, and the E. Bunny and that type of stuff, but in order to do it, we have to deflect all the skeptical questions he throws at us, and eventually his trust in us will cause him to accept these things.   It's weird how strong social pressures are.  I feel the social pressure to get my kid to believe in Santa is 500 times greature than the social pressure to get him to believe in God.  Strange eh? -------------- "For everything else, there's Mastertard"

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 27 2006,11:37    if he wants evidence of stuff before believing in it, that's what you should be trying to cultivate, not belief in fairies and gods.

Fross Posts: 71 Joined: Mar. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 27 2006,12:00    we draw the line at holiday characters.   Mainly because we know that he'll figure it out, and eventually it may be a valuable lesson for him when he gets older.  For instance, he'll understand what it's like to have a belief, challenge it and deal with that belief being debunked.  Tough love baby!! -------------- "For everything else, there's Mastertard"

PuckSR Posts: 314 Joined: Nov. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 27 2006,13:29    Interesting discussion... I still consider myself a fairly religious person, a Christian even... I just finished a paper on religion and morality, and I have to admit that I find stevestory's comment hilarious Quote We have the idea of eternal torture because it was compatible with the ethical systems of the primitives who wrote the bible. Actually Steve, the whole concept of "eternal torture" was absent from the barbarian book(i assume your referring to the older texts of the bible).  The whole graphic concept of #### came out after the Greeks(a fairly enlightened people). The name "####" is a derivative of the Norse term for the afterlife.  The New Testament of the bible actually refers to Hades...literally.  The Muslims did a fairly comprehensive job of describing ####, but they stole a lot of that from popular early christian literature. The reason I mentioned morality earlier: It actually has a lot to do with evolution, the best explanations of modern morality contribute our morality to a genetically acquired trait that is found in most social animals.  Now, granted, this idea is a little disturbing if you dont like the idea of determinism; but I think it explains a lot of human behavior We rarely behave in an "evil" way, but generally find a way to rationalize an act. Jesus had a great idea, and if more modern Christians would actually try to get the whole point, I think we would have a much happier place. Jesus, like Gautama Siddhartha, had a great message, a message that transcended theological and metaphysical discussion.  Just quit thinking about all of that other crap, and just be a better person. BTW, if you never got the whole 'Jesus message'; its simple...quit making rationalizations for 'bad' actions, love everyone...be good to everyone...but mostly just love The whole reward/punishment thing that Fundies preach has an even simpler motivation.  Buddha and Jesus's ideas require thought...several of our fellow hairless apes are kinda...well..dumb.  If you really want to get the masses behind a movement...you have to throw in some heaven/#### or samsara.  Its not their fault that they cant get beyond such a basic level of reasoning, but it does keep them in line....until you let the dumb start ruling the dumb... Southern Baptist Convention? P.S. i never believed in Santa, i got my fix when i figured out that roswell wasnt really any alien crash site.

Arden Chatfield Posts: 6657 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 27 2006,13:30    Quote (Fross @ Mar. 27 2006,17:19) Are any of you guys parents?  My son is about to turn four, and he's as skeptical as you can get on the subject of God, angels, Santa, Easter Bunny ect.   Basically if he can't see them, he's very skeptical about it.   On the other hand, he is always afraid of "spooks" as he calls them.  (ghost and monsters in his closet)   We have to pound it in his head that he's just using his imagination.  Like he'll run out of a darkened hallway screaming with fear "i'm using my imagination again!" with slight tears in his eyes. That is too adorable! I have a 10-year-old daughter. She believed in Santa Claus up til a few years ago, but then started doubting it xmas before last. She asked us "there isn't really a Santa, is there?" We admitted there wasn't, and she was fine with it, but last xmas she sorta regressed and started believing in it again, perhaps fearing she would get fewer presents. I suspect this next xmas she'll have left the concept behind once and for all. As for religion, we expose her to various things that either I, my wife, or close friends appreciate, including Buddhism, Unitarianism, and occasional stuff like Yogananada. Mostly the first two, but we don't give her big, mandatory doses of any of it. Our goal is to have her know lots of stuff exists, and to be open minded about what's out there, but to only have her participate to the extent she wants to. It's fine with us if she simply chooses nothing. We're also raising her to respect rationality as best we can. She asked me what evolution was once, based on something she saw on TV, and I explained it to her as well as I could. She got it, but she asked "but there's people who don't believe that, right?" So I had to explain that in a way a 10-year-old would understand. We pride ourselves on raising our daughter in a way people like James Dobson and DaveTard definitely would not approve of. -------------- "Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 27 2006,13:46    Whichever barbarians came up with the idea first, everlasting torture is all over the bible, and the people who follow the bible are influenced toward barbarism.

Stephen Elliott Posts: 1776 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 27 2006,14:03    Quote (Fross @ Mar. 27 2006,17:19) Are any of you guys parents?  My son is about to turn four, and he's as skeptical as you can get on the subject of God, angels, Santa, Easter Bunny ect.   Basically if he can't see them, he's very skeptical about it.   On the other hand, he is always afraid of "spooks" as he calls them.  (ghost and monsters in his closet)   We have to pound it in his head that he's just using his imagination.  Like he'll run out of a darkened hallway screaming with fear "i'm using my imagination again!" with slight tears in his eyes. When we get to the subject of Santa, Angels, E. Bunny, etc. he tells us that that's just our imagination.   As a parent, I get mixed emotions on when to trick him into believing something that's not real.  We're trying to get him to believe Santa, and the E. Bunny and that type of stuff, but in order to do it, we have to deflect all the skeptical questions he throws at us, and eventually his trust in us will cause him to accept these things.   It's weird how strong social pressures are.  I feel the social pressure to get my kid to believe in Santa is 500 times greature than the social pressure to get him to believe in God.  Strange eh? Is this true or a wind-up? My kids (all 3 of them) myself and my sister, had no problem at all believing all kinds of stuff when very young. I don't think social pressures are weird. After all we are social animals. Pretty sure the "go along to get along" inclination would have been a selected trait for most of human development.

PuckSR Posts: 314 Joined: Nov. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 27 2006,15:50    Quote Whichever barbarians came up with the idea first, everlasting torture is all over the bible, and the people who follow the bible are influenced toward barbarism. Not really, Judaism has a much more communal karmic sense than an idea of everlasting torture... But once again....if someone is soooo stupid that all they use their higher(in relation to other societal animals) intelligence for is to validate evil actions...aren't you glad they they are also dumb enough to be afraid of ####? A common question: "Shouldn't Atheists be completely immoral?" Of course, the only people who ask this question are the people who cannot comprehend morality without fear of ####... Be really, really, really glad that someone thought up the threat of #### for these morally corrupt bastards....

UnMark Posts: 97 Joined: Mar. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 27 2006,16:23    My wife is a mostly-non-practicing Catholic.  I am just about as atheist as one can get.  I realized early on that if all systems of belief are just as correct, then none of them can possibly be true.  We argue about the whole Santa Lie most Wintertides - I'm against lying to our kids about mythological entities while she thinks that's just a part of childhood. My wife also happens to be a daycare teacher, and occasionally babysits here at home for some of the center's kids.  A few weeks ago she was watching two girls who brought one of their favorite DVDs: Veggie Tales.  I had to leave the room after the Veggie Kids were dropped into a 'fiery furnace' (no joking) for standing up for what they believe in.  After the girls left, I made it clear to Wifey that there will be none of THAT in our house when we have kids. . . .

PuckSR Posts: 314 Joined: Nov. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 27 2006,17:06    Quote I had to leave the room after the Veggie Kids were dropped into a 'fiery furnace' (no joking) for standing up for what they believe in. Ummm....dude...that's part of the story it wasn't an illusion to he!!...it is from the bible....its a story about some guys being persecuted, and then "dropped into fire" for "Standing up for what they believe in".  The trick is that they weren't harmed...divine will of God and all..... I may have missed something...why are you so offended? its probably a good idea to expose your kids to different mythologies....it allows them to be more well-rounded in their literacy.

Fross Posts: 71 Joined: Mar. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 27 2006,17:18    my kid currently thinks that "God" and "Jesus" are words you shout out when you stub your toe.  We really need to start teaching him some of this stuff. -------------- "For everything else, there's Mastertard"

GCT Posts: 1001 Joined: Aug. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 28 2006,00:46    Quote (stevestory @ Mar. 27 2006,17:37) if he wants evidence of stuff before believing in it, that's what you should be trying to cultivate, not belief in fairies and gods. I'm with Steve on this one. Why abuse his trust?  He trusts that you will give him accurate information.  If you feed him lies about santa, et. al. and caused him to believe in it, he might trust you a whole lot less in the end.  Having a rational skepticism is a good thing, not something to be beaten back. (Disclaimer: I don't have kids, so take this as you will.)

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 28 2006,03:32    i can see though how getting him to believe in santa and then having him figure out different could provide a real teachable moment about evidence and belief.

Arden Chatfield Posts: 6657 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 28 2006,04:15    I don't think there are any consequences later in life to believing in Santa as a kid. I believed in Santa like everyone else when I was little and it didn't put the slightest dent in my later robust adult cynicism. Seems harmless to me. -------------- "Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

GCT Posts: 1001 Joined: Aug. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 28 2006,04:25    But, if the child disbelieves in santa and you lie to him over and over until he believes it and use his trust in you to deceive him?  Maybe it does pose a good lesson, but I'm not sure I would be able to do that to my child if I had one.

PuckSR Posts: 314 Joined: Nov. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 28 2006,05:03    The long-term lesson isnt that your parents lie to you The long-term lesson is that people will sometimes give you bad information, and it wont always be malicious.... sometimes people will give you bad information with good intentions....sometimes they wont even realize that they are giving you bad information.... any kid is going to realize pretty quickly that all parents tell their kids the same thing....and learn that a lie does not become more true if it is told more often...

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 28 2006,05:14    The simple fact that you know enough to talk to your kid about how evidence and claims and beliefs work means the kid is probably going to turn out alright. The kid probably won't be as susceptible to the really awful reasons people believe in religions, such as "I just know it's true" or "the bible says it." or whatever.

Fross Posts: 71 Joined: Mar. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 28 2006,05:20    Before I had kids, I thought the same way.  "I'll never lie to them just to make the holidays cute"  But once you have a kid, your brain turns to mush and most of the stuff you had pre-planned goes out the window. -------------- "For everything else, there's Mastertard"

Arden Chatfield Posts: 6657 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 28 2006,05:31    Quote (GCT @ Mar. 28 2006,10:25) But, if the child disbelieves in santa and you lie to him over and over until he believes it and use his trust in you to deceive him?  Maybe it does pose a good lesson, but I'm not sure I would be able to do that to my child if I had one. Trust me, belief in Santa is not a big deal. I've never heard of anyone who was all embittered later in life because their parents didn't tell them Santa was a myth. It wears off quickly, around age 10-11 at the latest, and leaves no traces. Besides, you're forgetting the main reason why kids don't feel 'betrayed' by believing in Santa -- because Santa gives him/her all kinds of cool stuff every xmas. So they'll have *good* associations with it all anyway. Besides, when my 9-YO daughter asked me "Santa isn't real, is he?" I didn't lie to her. The way it usually works is the child is told the concept, immediately believes it, and then keeps believing it til the counterevidence becomes too much to ignore. Then they drop it. It's not generally inculcated by lying to a doubting child repeatedly. Ultimately it is not important. If you raise a kid not to believe in Santa, that's fine too. Raising a child to blindly trust religious structures due to vague threats of hellfire or punishment is infinitely worse and potentially messes up a child WELL into adulthood. Look at, say, Ben Domenich or Salvador Cordova. Some old fat dude with a funny outfit who brings gameboys is harmless. -------------- "Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

GCT Posts: 1001 Joined: Aug. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 28 2006,07:15    I wasn't trying to imply that anyone was doing anything wrong to their kids, so if I've offended anyone I apologize.  It wasn't my intent. In this instance, the child already disbelieves, i.e. the counterevidence is already too much to ignore.  I think at that point it is not only OK, but appropriate to discard the myth and not try to force-feed it into a child that has already seen behind the curtain.

UnMark Posts: 97 Joined: Mar. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 28 2006,16:51    Quote Ummm....dude...that's part of the story it wasn't an illusion to he!!...it is from the bible....its a story about some guys being persecuted,and then "dropped into fire" for "Standing up for what they believe in".  The trick is that they weren't harmed...divine will of God and all..... I may have missed something...why are you so offended? IME, kids that age can't distinguish between the make-believe in Mother Goose' tales and the Bible, Qu'ran, Torah, etc.  So, I wasn't offended so much as I was irked. Quote its probably a good idea to expose your kids to different mythologies....it allows them to be more well-rounded in their literacy. Of this I heartily agree.  But I don't think the way to do that is through proselytizing cartoons. I can't say it any better than Arden did: Quote Raising a child to blindly trust religious structures due to vague threats of hellfire or punishment is infinitely worse and potentially messes up a child WELL into adulthood. Look at, say, Ben Domenich or Salvador Cordova.

PuckSR Posts: 314 Joined: Nov. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 28 2006,18:19    Quote IME, kids that age can't distinguish between the make-believe in Mother Goose' tales and the Bible, Qu'ran, Torah, etc.  So, I wasn't offended so much as I was irked. Im still really confused..... you realize the story that the Veggie thingies were alluding to? The people who got thrown into the fire were the GOOD guys The bad guys threw them into the fire...... the 'fiery furnace' was actually a 'fiery furnace' in the original story too... the 'fiery furnace' was not he!! it wasnt a threat to nonbelievers.... It could be myth or fact...its still a story about the extremes of religious intolerance.... I dont see why it "irked" you.... Im familiar with the story...and I honestly cannot see anything at all offensive about it I get the very strong impression that you were unfamiliar with the story, and based on a limited understanding of what was going on...you assumed something

UnMark Posts: 97 Joined: Mar. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 29 2006,15:54    The story itself wasn't the source of my dismay, it was the fact that an entire cartoon series was created just to proselytize young kids: teach them to believe that a magical character will always save the day for them if only they believe hard enough in the magical character. I guess my stance stems from how closely I relate to the "antitheist" quote made by stevestory on page 61 of the UD thread.  (Sadly, I cannot seem to find a link directly to the post.) I hope that helps Cheers!

PuckSR Posts: 314 Joined: Nov. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 29 2006,19:40    OK...just for the record....I hate the veggie tales thingy... I watched one for 10 minutes, and I found enough racist, hateful, and just plain wrong remarks to make me wish I had never watched it.... One thing though UnMark...just thought I would mention...dont be so quick to judge.... In this case, Im pretty sure you misunderstood 'fiery furnace' as a comment about ####. Parents will almost always attempt to install their own beliefs into their children.... Think about it...You will raise your kids to be moral without a fear of God Your fundamentalist neighbor will teach them to be moral because of a fear of God Your Buddhist neighbor will teach them that God is not important...the only important thing is being moral You cannot really get mad at an animator for filling a need...parents wanted to teach their kids christianity...they wanted to do it in a fun way...they created veggie tales.. Im sure you will have interesting ways of teaching your children too.... Now, to wrap it all up, never ever ever ever ever show your kids that show....unless you want your children to grow up with some incredibly twisted worldviews...also...no 24-hour news stations...they are just creepy

UnMark Posts: 97 Joined: Mar. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 30 2006,17:43    Yes, my first reaction to 'firey furnace' was he!!.  And I think a child would likely draw the same link - afterall, he!! is firey. . . . Now where is that Puritan Preacher Sermon about how we're all dangling by a thread over the firey pits of he!!?  Hmmmm.... Anyways, to each their own!

PuckSR Posts: 314 Joined: Nov. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 30 2006,18:57    dude....sorry for all the huff.... like i said...i hate veggie tales.... im just trying to fix your phobia of every religious story that might mention fire

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