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Quack



Posts: 1961
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: May 28 2014,02:19   

I've never observed trees growing. They must do it when I am not looking. Funny how nature can do things without onlookers.

Looks like violation of the 1st law of creationism.

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Rocks have no biology.
              Robert Byers.

  
Quack



Posts: 1961
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: May 28 2014,02:41   

Would Remapping the epic evolution of a 'ring species'  have any impact on Sorry, Ring Species Do Not Provide Good Evidence for the Origin of New Species by the Darwinian Mechanism?

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Rocks have no biology.
              Robert Byers.

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3668
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: May 28 2014,08:31   

Quote (Quack @ May 28 2014,02:19)
I've never observed trees growing. They must do it when I am not looking. Funny how nature can do things without onlookers.

Looks like violation of the 1st law of creationism.

This guy isn't a creationist.

So, he thinks that the growth of the tree is not a fact. It is an inference about the tree.

I still think he's being exceptionally difficult, but it's somewhat beyond me to explain it. I'm actually asking for a legit discussion, not our usual dismissal of crank comments.

Is evolution a fact or are the facts really inferences based on factual observation, that are not, in and of themselves, evolution.

He bases his commentary on Kirk Fitzhugh (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1463-6409.2007.00308.x/abstract) and I am curious if anyone else has read this and comments on it. I'm reading through it now and I think that Fitzhugh has a too narrow definition of "fact".

But that's my opinion as I write this.

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Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
NoName



Posts: 2729
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: May 28 2014,08:48   

Quote (OgreMkV @ May 28 2014,09:31)
Quote (Quack @ May 28 2014,02:19)
I've never observed trees growing. They must do it when I am not looking. Funny how nature can do things without onlookers.

Looks like violation of the 1st law of creationism.

This guy isn't a creationist.

So, he thinks that the growth of the tree is not a fact. It is an inference about the tree.

I still think he's being exceptionally difficult, but it's somewhat beyond me to explain it. I'm actually asking for a legit discussion, not our usual dismissal of crank comments.

Is evolution a fact or are the facts really inferences based on factual observation, that are not, in and of themselves, evolution.

He bases his commentary on Kirk Fitzhugh (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1463-6409.2007.00308.x/abstract) and I am curious if anyone else has read this and comments on it. I'm reading through it now and I think that Fitzhugh has a too narrow definition of "fact".

But that's my opinion as I write this.

It sounds like the sort of very narrow conception of 'fact'  that goes back at least to David Hume.  His tale of watching a cat pass by through a hole in a fence and the lack of "guarantee" that we are in fact seeing a single cat passing continuously seems to me to be the sort of faux philosophizing that worries endlessly about whether the 'me' that wakes in the morning is the same person who fell asleep the night before.  Or another variant of Zeno's Paradox.  It sounds good but is ultimately sterile and uninformative.

  
Jim_Wynne



Posts: 1208
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 28 2014,08:49   

Quote (OgreMkV @ May 28 2014,08:31)
Quote (Quack @ May 28 2014,02:19)
I've never observed trees growing. They must do it when I am not looking. Funny how nature can do things without onlookers.

Looks like violation of the 1st law of creationism.

This guy isn't a creationist.

So, he thinks that the growth of the tree is not a fact. It is an inference about the tree.

I still think he's being exceptionally difficult, but it's somewhat beyond me to explain it. I'm actually asking for a legit discussion, not our usual dismissal of crank comments.

Is evolution a fact or are the facts really inferences based on factual observation, that are not, in and of themselves, evolution.

He bases his commentary on Kirk Fitzhugh (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1463-6409.2007.00308.x/abstract) and I am curious if anyone else has read this and comments on it. I'm reading through it now and I think that Fitzhugh has a too narrow definition of "fact".

But that's my opinion as I write this.

I think it's meaningless wordplay.  There are things that happen on a continuum, and not necessarily as individual observable events.  A good example of this is learning to drive a car.  There is no single moment when a person is suddenly competent--the learning and conditioning happen gradually with cumulative effect.  So it is with evolution; a gradual continuum of events rather than a dinosaur giving birth to an ostrich doesn't mean that there is no factual basis for evolution, unless "factual" is being defined in a circular fashion.

This is not very far removed from Kent Hovind and WHERE YOU THEIR???

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Evolution is not about laws but about randomness on happanchance.--Robert Byers, at PT

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3668
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: May 28 2014,08:58   

I read the article by Fitzhugh and I think we're right. Fitzhugh is defining fact so narrowly that a glass of water on a desk isn't considered a 'fact', but a hypothesis.

Then he (correctly) states that this is a semantic argument.

The point was that he was concerned about giving people a misrepresentation of science and evolution by using 'fact'. I'm willing to maintain that his definition of 'fact' is more confusing than anything else I've encountered by a legit scientist.

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
Jim_Wynne



Posts: 1208
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 28 2014,09:26   

Quote (OgreMkV @ May 28 2014,08:58)
I read the article by Fitzhugh and I think we're right. Fitzhugh is defining fact so narrowly that a glass of water on a desk isn't considered a 'fact', but a hypothesis.

Then he (correctly) states that this is a semantic argument.

The point was that he was concerned about giving people a misrepresentation of science and evolution by using 'fact'. I'm willing to maintain that his definition of 'fact' is more confusing than anything else I've encountered by a legit scientist.

I think "proof" and "proven" are more readily abused than "fact."

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Evolution is not about laws but about randomness on happanchance.--Robert Byers, at PT

  
fnxtr



Posts: 3504
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 28 2014,10:36   

Quote (Jim_Wynne @ May 28 2014,07:26)
Quote (OgreMkV @ May 28 2014,08:58)
I read the article by Fitzhugh and I think we're right. Fitzhugh is defining fact so narrowly that a glass of water on a desk isn't considered a 'fact', but a hypothesis.

Then he (correctly) states that this is a semantic argument.

The point was that he was concerned about giving people a misrepresentation of science and evolution by using 'fact'. I'm willing to maintain that his definition of 'fact' is more confusing than anything else I've encountered by a legit scientist.

I think "proof" and "proven" are more readily abused than "fact."

Prove it.

--------------
"[A] book said there were 5 trillion witnesses. Who am I supposed to believe, 5 trillion witnesses or you? That shit's, like, ironclad. " -- stevestory

"Wow, you must be retarded. I said that CO2 does not trap heat. If it did then it would not cool down at night."  Joe G

  
fnxtr



Posts: 3504
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 28 2014,16:05   



--------------
"[A] book said there were 5 trillion witnesses. Who am I supposed to believe, 5 trillion witnesses or you? That shit's, like, ironclad. " -- stevestory

"Wow, you must be retarded. I said that CO2 does not trap heat. If it did then it would not cool down at night."  Joe G

  
Cubist



Posts: 558
Joined: Oct. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: May 28 2014,18:43   

Anybody who knows the address of Mabus' parole officer should probably notify them of what he's up to here.

  
DaveH



Posts: 49
Joined: July 2009

(Permalink) Posted: May 30 2014,08:30   

Quote (Cubist @ May 28 2014,18:43)
Anybody who knows the address of Mabus' parole officer should probably notify them of what he's up to here.

Et voila!

Back in court.

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3668
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: May 30 2014,09:31   

Quote (DaveH @ May 30 2014,08:30)
Quote (Cubist @ May 28 2014,18:43)
Anybody who knows the address of Mabus' parole officer should probably notify them of what he's up to here.

Et voila!

Back in court.

He's to be checked if cocaine and alcohol abuse are his only problems...

ummm... Well, I guess that's enough isn't it?

Good grief.

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
Amadan



Posts: 1337
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: June 13 2014,18:29   



[URL=http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/06/13/earth-may-have-underground-ocean-three-times-the-size-of-surface-oceans-combined-scientist

s-say/]http://www.rawstory.com/rs....sts-say[/URL]

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"People are always looking for natural selection to generate random mutations" - Densye  4-4-2011
JoeG BTW dumbass- some variations help ensure reproductive fitness so they cannot be random wrt it.

   
Texas Teach



Posts: 2084
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 25 2014,17:39   

Unforeseen consequence of the ToE

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"Creationists think everything Genesis says is true. I don't even think Phil Collins is a good drummer." --J. Carr

"I suspect that the English grammar books where you live are outdated" --G. Gaulin

  
Quack



Posts: 1961
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 26 2014,01:26   

Quote (Amadan @ June 13 2014,18:29)


[URL=http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/06/13/earth-may-have-underground-ocean-three-times-the-size-of-surface-oceans-combined-scientist


s-say/]http://www.rawstory.com/rs....s....sts-say[/URL]


Fixed link

--------------
Rocks have no biology.
              Robert Byers.

  
Timothy McDougald



Posts: 1036
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 27 2014,08:16   

You Brits need to apologize, for having a better sense of humour than us Americans.  :angry:

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Church burning ebola boy

FTK: I Didn't answer your questions because it beats the hell out of me.

PaV: I suppose for me to be pried away from what I do to focus long and hard on that particular problem would take, quite honestly, hundreds of thousands of dollars to begin to pique my interest.

   
rossum



Posts: 289
Joined: Dec. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 27 2014,12:17   

Quote (afarensis @ Aug. 27 2014,08:16)
You Brits need to apologize, for having a better sense of humour than us Americans.  :angry:

The only people who ever went to Washington with honest intentions.

--------------
The ultimate truth is that there is no ultimate truth.

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3668
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 28 2014,15:32   

Need some help.

IIRC a few years back, Behe was only doing "ID research". The DI was paying the Lehigh so that they could hire a professor to teach the courses Behe wasn't.

Does anyone recall that and a link? Was it in the Kitzmiller trial?

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
OgreMkV



Posts: 3668
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 30 2014,09:12   

According to a source who has given no evidence of this...

Quote
Behe is teaching at least 3 courses with 2 biochem courses at the graduate level for a total of 9 credits. He's also giving the only graduate level seminar required for all biological sciences graduate students called Responsible Conduct of Science.


My emphasis.

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
Lethean



Posts: 292
Joined: Jan. 2014

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 31 2014,17:29   

Quote (OgreMkV @ Aug. 30 2014,09:12)
According to a source who has given no evidence of this...

   
Quote
Behe is teaching at least 3 courses with 2 biochem courses at the graduate level for a total of 9 credits. He's also giving the only graduate level seminar required for all biological sciences graduate students called Responsible Conduct of Science.


My emphasis.

I poked around on LeHeigh's website but I couldn't find any listing of courses that included the name of the faculty responsible for them. (strangely, trying to directly visit the "faculty" page kicked me to the "graduate studies" page and a couple of other links just dead end, clunky b.s. site) Even the faculties individual webpages don't give a summary of what courses they teach.

According to the Graduate Program Guidelines under the COURSE WORK and GRADING POLICIES:

   
Quote
In addition to the following Biochemistry, Integrative Biology and Neuroscience and Cell and Molecular Biology program required courses - All students will enroll and attend:

   BioS 408 (0 credits) Responsible Conduct of Science within their first year of graduate study
   BioS 406 (1 credit) Biological Sciences Seminar at least twice in the first four semesters and
   All Departmental Seminars


I searched through the 2013-2014 course catalog (pdf), which only provides a list of the faculty at the head of the Biological Sciences section, and found basically the same information under Graduate Study in the Biological Sciences (p.85).

   
Quote
Core requirements for each division are listed below. The graduate school requires students to register for at least 72-post baccalaureate credits to earn the Ph.D. In addition, all students must take BIOS 408 (0 credits) Responsible Conduct of Science within their first year of graduate study. All students must also attend departmental seminars and enroll in BIOS 406 (1 credit) Biological Sciences Seminar at least twice in the first four semesters. A minimum of 24 course credits may be chosen from upper level courses in biochemistry, molecular biology, cell biology, behavioral biology and evolutionary biology, and neuroscience. At least 12 of these credits must be at the 400 level.


Responsible Conduct of Science is described as (p.90)

   
Quote
BIOS 408 Responsible Conduct of Science 0 Credits

Responsible practice in research. Training in general laboratory methods; human subjects concerns; radiation safety; chemical hazards; aseptic technique; physical, mechanical, biological, and fire hazards; animal welfare. Occupational and workplace considerations. Recombinant DNA guidelines; patent and proprietary rights; controversies over applications of science. Appropriate aspects required of investigators in all departmental research projects.


Sorry, I realize this doesn't help very much but it's at least clear that the course doesn't engage in discussing ethics in a way, it appears to me, that Tugs bragging on behalf of Behe would like to imply.


Hang on, I just found the Fall & Summer 2014 Class Schedule (pdf) (p.10-13)

   
Quote
CRN SUBJ CRS SEC TITLE CRD DAYS TIME INSTRUCTOR PERMISSIONS

40620 BIOS 202 010 BIOMEDICAL EXTERNSHIP 1 - 3 T 0700-1000 Behe M Department

46138 BIOS 371 011 ELEMENTS OF BIOCHEMISTRY I 3 TR 0900-1015 Behe M
This section for graduate students only.

46143 CHM 371 011 ELEMENTS OF BIOCHEMISTRY I 3 TR 0900-1015 Behe M
This section for graduate students only.

40625 BIOS 408 010 RESPONSIBLE CONDUCT OF SCIENCE 0 - Behe M


BIOS 202 is ...

   
Quote
BIOS 202 Biomedical Externship 1-3 Credits

Analysis of individualized experiences at external biomedical clinical or research sites. Limited enrollment. May not be taken for passfail grading. May not be used to satisfy any life science major or minor requirement. Consent of department chair required.


... and it looks like he's teaching one graduate required course in one class with two separate course numbers depending on which major you're in.

Unrelated and unsurprisingly, doing a search in the "people directory" reveals a whole gaggle of Behes

Quote
Michael Behe Faculty - Biological Sciences Hall
Celeste Behe Affiliate
Vincent Behe Undergraduate Student - AS/History
Leo    Behe Undergraduate Student - AS/Computer Science (AS)
Grace Behe Affiliate
Clare Behe Faculty/Staff - Mathematics


--------------
"So I'm a pretty unusual guy and it's not stupidity that has gotten me where I am. It's brilliance."

"My brain is one of the very few independent thinking brains that you've ever met. And that's a thing of wonder to you and since you don't understand it you criticize it."


~Dave Hawkins~

  
Quack



Posts: 1961
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 06 2014,01:39   

Science Daily headline:      
Quote
How good is the fossil record? New study casts doubt on their usefulness

I was relieved to read:
   
Quote
The sequence of fossils in the rocks more or less tells us the story of the history of life, and we have sensible ways of dealing with uncertainty. Some recent work on 'correcting' the fossil record by using formation counts may produce nonsense results.


--------------
Rocks have no biology.
              Robert Byers.

  
Timothy McDougald



Posts: 1036
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2014,15:48   

Just thought I would mention, in case there is any interest.

--------------
Church burning ebola boy

FTK: I Didn't answer your questions because it beats the hell out of me.

PaV: I suppose for me to be pried away from what I do to focus long and hard on that particular problem would take, quite honestly, hundreds of thousands of dollars to begin to pique my interest.

   
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2014,16:12   

Quote (afarensis @ Sep. 10 2014,15:48)
Just thought I would mention, in case there is any interest.

Yes... I left a comment with a sock name - cuz it works.

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 11 2014,19:52   

Quote (Timothy McDougald @ Sep. 10 2014,16:48)
Just thought I would mention, in case there is any interest.

There is.

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Dr.GH



Posts: 2333
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 13 2014,17:12   

An aging brain -- What was the great brough harrah  a few years ago about the Texas ecologist, and air borne Ebola? Billy Dembski went nuts about it, and there was some guy that used to write a column for Popular Electronics?

--------------
"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
Dr.GH



Posts: 2333
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 13 2014,17:19   

Quote (Dr.GH @ Sep. 13 2014,15:12)
An aging brain -- What was the great brough harrah  a few years ago about the Texas ecologist, and air borne Ebola? Billy Dembski went nuts about it, and there was some guy that used to write a column for Popular Electronics?

Ah! Got it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki...._speech

--------------
"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
The whole truth



Posts: 1554
Joined: Jan. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 30 2014,09:56   

Just another example of creationist insanity:

https://www.facebook.com/DawnDis....nternal

The "Foreseer":

https://www.facebook.com/FatherE....erEmbry

--------------
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. - Jesus in Matthew 10:34

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. -Jesus in Luke 19:27

   
Quack



Posts: 1961
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 01 2014,03:04   

How long before the AGW deniers admit the globe is warming - anthropogenic - or not?
   
Quote
In 2013, President Tong has spoken of climate-change induced sea level rise as "inevitable". "For our people to survive, then they will have to migrate. Either we can wait for the time when we have to move people en masse or we can prepare them—beginning from now ..."[35] In New York in 2014, per The New Yorker, President Tong told The New York Times that "according to the projections, within this century, the water will be higher than the highest point in our lands".

Wikipedia:    
Quote
Kiribati has entered into cooperation with Fiji to secure the inhabitants of the country a place to live in case the homeland should be swallowed by rising ocean level. The government has bought land on Vanua Levu in Fiji, ... May 2014 Kiribati paid the last installment of 8.6 millon USD.
Translated, found in Norwegian edition only.)

--------------
Rocks have no biology.
              Robert Byers.

  
Kristine



Posts: 3061
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2014,18:41   

Hey, my comments are not making it through at PT. Did I do something wrong?

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Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
fnxtr



Posts: 3504
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2014,21:37   

Quote (Kristine @ Oct. 08 2014,16:41)
Hey, my comments are not making it through at PT. Did I do something wrong?

You were gone too long. :-(

--------------
"[A] book said there were 5 trillion witnesses. Who am I supposed to believe, 5 trillion witnesses or you? That shit's, like, ironclad. " -- stevestory

"Wow, you must be retarded. I said that CO2 does not trap heat. If it did then it would not cool down at night."  Joe G

  
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