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  Topic: A Separate Thread for Gary Gaulin, As big as the poop that does not look< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
k.e..



Posts: 5432
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 21 2014,05:39   

Quote (GaryGaulin @ Dec. 21 2014,12:00)
Quote (N.Wells @ Dec. 21 2014,00:09)
......
No one is demanding that you build a model of artificial neurons, although that would indeed be a good way of resolving various issues.

I'm already experimenting with "Excitatory synapses" and a "Na+ channel" using LTSpice:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v....Ja2GS7c  

Very nice!

I'll let Wesley know whether I need help setting any component values.

Blue Brain v Gary who will win? Lt spice has got salt in it now Gary?

Jesus you're moron.

--------------
"I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his clown DaveTard suit" dogdidit
"ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus
"I'm busy studying scientist level science papers" Galloping Gary Gaulin

  
NoName



Posts: 2729
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 21 2014,07:38   

Quote (GaryGaulin @ Dec. 21 2014,05:00)
Quote (N.Wells @ Dec. 21 2014,00:09)
......
No one is demanding that you build a model of artificial neurons, although that would indeed be a good way of resolving various issues.

I'm already experimenting with "Excitatory synapses" and a "Na+ channel" using LTSpice:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v....Ja2GS7c  

Very nice!

I'll let Wesley know whether I need help setting any component values.

But what you haven't done is model 'the behavior of matter/energy', molecules, interacting molecular sub-systems, the transition from general molecular assemblies to cells, nor where and how 'intelligence' plays a role in any of those items.

Yet you persistently claim to have done just that.  Is it any wonder you are treated with contempt and derision?

You bring new knowledge to science the way ISIS brings peace to the Middle East.

  
k.e..



Posts: 5432
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 21 2014,08:07   

Quote (NoName @ Dec. 21 2014,15:38)
Quote (GaryGaulin @ Dec. 21 2014,05:00)
 
Quote (N.Wells @ Dec. 21 2014,00:09)
......
No one is demanding that you build a model of artificial neurons, although that would indeed be a good way of resolving various issues.

I'm already experimenting with "Excitatory synapses" and a "Na+ channel" using LTSpice:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v....Ja2GS7c  

Very nice!

I'll let Wesley know whether I need help setting any component values.

But what you haven't done is model 'the behavior of matter/energy', molecules, interacting molecular sub-systems, the transition from general molecular assemblies to cells, nor where and how 'intelligence' plays a role in any of those items.

Yet you persistently claim to have done just that.  Is it any wonder you are treated with contempt and derision?

You bring new knowledge to science the way ISIS brings peace to the Middle East.

Strong words there Mr. Is No your last or first name? Just kidding. I deeply suspect Gary is unconsciously trying to bring Christmas to the Middle East what with his science being worse than ISIS schtick. He agrees with their fundamentals but disagrees with their Prophets. In any case his hypo demonic possession and the new Garyscience of molecules with brains is ripe for a tardoff. Probably those molecules are on bicycles with in built DJs to help with passing time in traffic at mid morning with the unemployed. Which let's face it must really bother him when he drives from bumfuck to the industrial slums reloading toner into the presses of commerce instead of selecting a new tuxedo for his Nobel acceptance.

--------------
"I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his clown DaveTard suit" dogdidit
"ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus
"I'm busy studying scientist level science papers" Galloping Gary Gaulin

  
NoName



Posts: 2729
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 21 2014,08:19   

Actually, on reflection during the dog's morning walk, let me retract the comparison.
Gary brings new knowledge to science the same way voles in Siberia bring new threats to the foundations of the Empire State Building.
He's an utter and complete irrelevancy, harming only himself.  Unlike ISIS.
Although I have to agree with k.e.'s analysis that if he were only more capable, he would attempt ISIS scale destructiveness, and for no more laudable reasons than theirs.

  
NoName



Posts: 2729
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 21 2014,08:27   

Here's another highly amusing bit from Gary's past.  It seems he has neither learned nor made any new guesses in the last 5 years, but has managed to lower his writing proficiency levels.  This is surprisingly more informative and better written than his current emissions.  It even includes specific answers to questions that have been raised locally, that he has preferred to keep obscured.  For obvious reasons.

A GG Synopsis

The choice bit is:
Quote
QUOTE (G. Gaulin+ Theory Of Intelligent Design)
Introduction

The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause[1] where multicellular intelligence such as ours is emergent from cellular intelligence, which is emergent from molecular intelligence, which is emergent from atomic behavior, which is emergent from subatomic behavior, which is emergent from a source currently unknown to science that must always be present for living things to exist else all molecular motion stops. From matter/energy itself comes increasingly complex behavior that molecularly self-assembles into learned and instinctual memory based intelligence that responds to environment by attempting to control it for its own design dependant needs.

The intelligence mechanism first needs something to control (motors, muscles, metabolic cycle) secondly feedback to gauge failure or success thirdly a memory to store sensory input and action taken then finally a fourth part where a random guess tries a new action. In molecular intelligence are genomes where change in coding is a guess. Either a "good guess" as in conserved domains being used in new combinations. Or a "random guess" as in replication errors that from-scratch would design conserved domains. Successful responses to environment remain in memory in the population (gene pool) to in turn keep going the billions year old cycle of life that through continual reproduction of previous state of genetic memory one replication at a time builds upon a previous design. A cladogram of resultant lineage thus shows a treeslike progression of adapting designs evidenced by the fossil record where never once was there not a predecessor of like design present for the descendant design to have come from.

Behavior of forces (polar force, etc.) that give matter its vitality internally to externally connect us to a progression of intelligent causation where there are two question marks at each end going both into and out of the same physical universe. Living things are hereby shown to be a created by levels of emergent intelligence that begins with nonrandom subatomic behavior then builds upwards to us.

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4991
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 21 2014,08:53   

Quote (N.Wells @ Dec. 20 2014,01:24)
Quote (GaryGaulin @ Dec. 20 2014,01:01)
Red-herring Wesley strikes again. Yawn.......

Shorter version: Gary's got nothing.

“If you’re weak on the facts and strong on the law, pound the law. If you’re weak on the law and strong on the facts, pound the facts. If you’re weak on both, pound the table.”  You are transparently pounding the table, Gary, and it doesn't look good.

That's not quite right. Gary does have something. It is his usual "Let's pretend!" routine, where anything he says is allowed to stand in for work he can't be bothered to accommodate. So integer values stand in for floating point, arrays stand in for neural associative memory, and nothing at all stands in for Heiserman's gamma level of robotic generalization. But in "Let's pretend!" land, this somehow is cutting-edge stuff.

Science doesn't value pretense, though, and keeps insisting on evidence via testing.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Texas Teach



Posts: 2084
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 21 2014,09:36   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Dec. 21 2014,08:53)
Quote (N.Wells @ Dec. 20 2014,01:24)
Quote (GaryGaulin @ Dec. 20 2014,01:01)
Red-herring Wesley strikes again. Yawn.......

Shorter version: Gary's got nothing.

“If you’re weak on the facts and strong on the law, pound the law. If you’re weak on the law and strong on the facts, pound the facts. If you’re weak on both, pound the table.”  You are transparently pounding the table, Gary, and it doesn't look good.

That's not quite right. Gary does have something. It is his usual "Let's pretend!" routine, where anything he says is allowed to stand in for work he can't be bothered to accommodate. So integer values stand in for floating point, arrays stand in for neural associative memory, and nothing at all stands in for Heiserman's gamma level of robotic generalization. But in "Let's pretend!" land, this somehow is cutting-edge stuff.

Science doesn't value pretense, though, and keeps insisting on evidence via testing.

I get students who do something like that from time to time.  They learn a few ideas, fall in love with the notion of science, and try to think up some grand idea of their own.  It usually violates a number of things we already know or omits crucial flaws, but the ones with a future in science use the failures to learn more about how science works.

From things he's said about his own (limited) science education, I suspect Gary's imagining were shot down (much as they have been across the Internet) for being off topic (wanting to learn about robots in biology) or impossible (molecules taking a guess). Gary never got enough formal science education to help him understand what he was doing wrong.  He's read some things on his own, but he never made some of the connections he needed to understand how different ideas fit together.  His resentment towards teachers (and his planet-sized ego) prevents him from learning from those who know more than him.

If only Gary would listen to others without using the time they're speaking to think up his next declaration of victory.

--------------
"Creationists think everything Genesis says is true. I don't even think Phil Collins is a good drummer." --J. Carr

"I suspect that the English grammar books where you live are outdated" --G. Gaulin

  
k.e..



Posts: 5432
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 21 2014,10:16   

Quote (Texas Teach @ Dec. 21 2014,17:36)
Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Dec. 21 2014,08:53)
 
Quote (N.Wells @ Dec. 20 2014,01:24)
 
Quote (GaryGaulin @ Dec. 20 2014,01:01)
Red-herring Wesley strikes again. Yawn.......

Shorter version: Gary's got nothing.

“If you’re weak on the facts and strong on the law, pound the law. If you’re weak on the law and strong on the facts, pound the facts. If you’re weak on both, pound the table.”  You are transparently pounding the table, Gary, and it doesn't look good.

That's not quite right. Gary does have something. It is his usual "Let's pretend!" routine, where anything he says is allowed to stand in for work he can't be bothered to accommodate. So integer values stand in for floating point, arrays stand in for neural associative memory, and nothing at all stands in for Heiserman's gamma level of robotic generalization. But in "Let's pretend!" land, this somehow is cutting-edge stuff.

Science doesn't value pretense, though, and keeps insisting on evidence via testing.

I get students who do something like that from time to time.  They learn a few ideas, fall in love with the notion of science, and try to think up some grand idea of their own.  It usually violates a number of things we already know or omits crucial flaws, but the ones with a future in science use the failures to learn more about how science works.

From things he's said about his own (limited) science education, I suspect Gary's imagining were shot down (much as they have been across the Internet) for being off topic (wanting to learn about robots in biology) or impossible (molecules taking a guess). Gary never got enough formal science education to help him understand what he was doing wrong.  He's read some things on his own, but he never made some of the connections he needed to understand how different ideas fit together.  His resentment towards teachers (and his planet-sized ego) prevents him from learning from those who know more than him.

If only Gary would listen to others without using the time they're speaking to think up his next declaration of victory.

I see it as gross laziness coupled with less than his fair endowment of brain power. The world owes him because the preacher/neighbor/postman said so or he imagined it. Not a good start. Plus seriously, Gary is probably one of the worst mother's boys to inhabit teh webs.

--------------
"I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his clown DaveTard suit" dogdidit
"ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus
"I'm busy studying scientist level science papers" Galloping Gary Gaulin

  
k.e..



Posts: 5432
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 21 2014,10:18   

It wouldn't surprise me at all if he was home skooled.

--------------
"I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his clown DaveTard suit" dogdidit
"ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus
"I'm busy studying scientist level science papers" Galloping Gary Gaulin

  
N.Wells



Posts: 1836
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 21 2014,10:37   

If I recall, he's talked about being in high school.

He's smart enough to get a mass spec running, write complex VB programs that compile and run, and set up an automated home pirate radio station, so he's smart enough to understand what he's doing wrong with respect to science.  However, how he can do those things without being able to think his way through to the end of an average sentence mystifies me.  Beyond that, he is utterly locked into his revelations: I think he doesn't get why he can't just state something and have it be as blazingly obvious to everyone else as it aparently is to him.  

("It's like intelligence, all the way down - it causes itself." "Oh wow, Gary, that's like really deep."  "Hey, quit bogarting that joint.....")

Two recent comments bear repeating:
Wesley, "Science doesn't value pretense, though, and keeps insisting on evidence via testing."

NoName, "Of course, this is what happens when you take a vague generalization like 'intelligence', fail to supply any operational definition, and fail to supply any concrete examples and then proceed to cobble together a mess of illiterate gibberish and call it a "theory" regarding said vague generalization."

  
NoName



Posts: 2729
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 21 2014,10:38   

Some people were dropped on their heads as kids.
Gary seems to have been flung against it with great force.
Possibly he bounced.

  
GaryGaulin



Posts: 5385
Joined: Oct. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 21 2014,13:32   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Dec. 21 2014,08:53)
Science doesn't value pretense, though, and keeps insisting on evidence via testing.

Then where is your required tested scientific evidence (and minimal code model) for the phenomenon of "intelligence" and "intelligent cause"?

--------------
The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.

   
Woodbine



Posts: 1218
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 21 2014,13:43   

Why is Wesley required to have a "tested scientific evidence (and minimal code model) for the phenomenon of "intelligence" and "intelligent cause"?"

Is he in violation of some law that exists only in your head?

  
NoName



Posts: 2729
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 21 2014,13:48   

Quote (GaryGaulin @ Dec. 21 2014,14:32)
Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Dec. 21 2014,08:53)
Science doesn't value pretense, though, and keeps insisting on evidence via testing.

Then where is your required tested scientific evidence (and minimal code model) for the phenomenon of "intelligence" and "intelligent cause"?

You don't have one, why should anyone else?

We don't need a competing set of evidence or explanation to know at least 2 things:
you have no evidence
your effluent has zero explanatory power

Get over your absurd misconception that your stuff can or should win by default in the absence of "something better".
That delusion lives only in your head.

  
GaryGaulin



Posts: 5385
Joined: Oct. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 21 2014,14:17   

Quote (Woodbine @ Dec. 21 2014,13:43)
Why is Wesley required to have a "tested scientific evidence (and minimal code model) for the phenomenon of "intelligence" and "intelligent cause"?"

Is he in violation of some law that exists only in your head?

For decades I have been testing/evaluating the latest models and theory pertaining to the phenomenon of "intelligence". I long ago took a HeathKit home study course in that too.

If Wesley has no model to evaluate then there is nothing anyone can even test. It's as simple as that.

--------------
The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.

   
NoName



Posts: 2729
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 21 2014,14:46   

Quote (GaryGaulin @ Dec. 21 2014,15:17)
Quote (Woodbine @ Dec. 21 2014,13:43)
Why is Wesley required to have a "tested scientific evidence (and minimal code model) for the phenomenon of "intelligence" and "intelligent cause"?"

Is he in violation of some law that exists only in your head?

For decades I have been testing/evaluating the latest models and theory pertaining to the phenomenon of "intelligence". I long ago took a HeathKit home study course in that too.

If Wesley has no model to evaluate then there is nothing anyone can even test. It's as simple as that.

No, you are simply confused.

Many things can be tested besides models.
Your "theory" fails to meet the minimal requirements of science (it has no evidence), the minimal requirements of modeling (it has no defined and coherent grounding structures), it is meaningless (due to the complete lack of precision or definition of key terms and the logical contradictions embedded into the structures presented), and it lacks explanatory power for (and this is your own criterion, mind you) what "explaining about how ANY intelligence system works".

You explicitly  exclude all acts of 'intelligence' that do not involve motor control.  That is ludicrous in the extreme.
Your "model" attempts to conflate 'plan' with 'guess' and has no place for imagination whatsoever.

Worse, your writing, and thinking, skills have deteriorated over the past 5+ years, as evidenced by the trail with which you've littered the internet.

  
NoName



Posts: 2729
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 21 2014,14:49   

Quote (GaryGaulin @ Dec. 21 2014,15:17)
Quote (Woodbine @ Dec. 21 2014,13:43)
Why is Wesley required to have a "tested scientific evidence (and minimal code model) for the phenomenon of "intelligence" and "intelligent cause"?"

Is he in violation of some law that exists only in your head?

For decades I have been testing/evaluating the latest models and theory pertaining to the phenomenon of "intelligence". I long ago took a HeathKit home study course in that too.

If Wesley has no model to evaluate then there is nothing anyone can even test. It's as simple as that.

I'm pretty sure that HeathKit never had a home study course on 'intelligence' per se.  Care to post a reference for that?
Then tell us why the practical engineering skills of HeathKit qualify them, or anyone who has purchased their products, to pontificate on 'intelligence' as such.
Their marketing emphasized that when it came to their kits, 'any idiot could build one'.  Apparently you proved that point for them.

If you've been working on your "models" for decades, how are they 'the latest'?  Neither Trehub nor Heiserman is cutting edge at this late date.  And as already noted, your work fails to reach the levels set by Trehub or Heiserman, to your own work's detriment.
Let us also note that no one gets extra points for persistence or for length of time spent uselessly taking up space in a given field of study.  No one cares how long you've been up to what you imagine you've been up to.  Einstein didn't get a Nobel for 'years of service', nor was his prize winning work created while he was employed as a physicist.

  
GaryGaulin



Posts: 5385
Joined: Oct. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 21 2014,15:31   

It does not look like many took the AI course. I'm having a hard time finding it online. But I did find my very first computer, I still have and occasionally use to design circuits. A couple of study courses went went it. Looked like this when new:


http://www.nostalgickitscentral.com/heath......sc.html

I sure got my money's worth out of that one.

--------------
The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.

   
NoName



Posts: 2729
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 21 2014,15:39   

Marvelous.  A not-quite-verification of one of your side-issue claims.  Assuming I recognize the hardware, and I'm fairly sure I do, what you have is the 'digital circuit' kit in one or another of its forms.  Bully for you.  I made extensive use of the analog circuit version.

When are you going to address the challenges, refutations, and assorted other issues raised against your codswallop?

Stop deflecting, distracting, and denying.  Man up and deal with the facts on the ground:

A phenomenon is not properly called 'emergent' when it arises from a set of phenomena to which it is properly called 'self-similar'.  And vice versa.
Not all acts of 'intelligence' are motor acts, yet your "theory" insists otherwise.  This flies in the face of your assertion that your, or any competing, "theory" must "explain how ANY intelligence system works."
Deal with the fact that you smuggle 'intelligence' into your module with the undefined and uncharacterized 'guess' function.
Deal with the fact that 'guess' does not equal 'plan'.  Your "theory" is useless as a 'theory of intelligence' if it cannot deal with plans and planning.
Deal with the fact that many acts of intelligence involve imagination, and your "theory" does not deal with imagination at all.
Deal with the fact that some of the most crucial constraints on life are thermodynamic and that your "theory" simply ignores any and all thermodynamic issues.
Etc.

  
Woodbine



Posts: 1218
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 21 2014,20:10   

Quote (GaryGaulin @ Dec. 21 2014,20:17)
 
Quote (Woodbine @ Dec. 21 2014,13:43)
Why is Wesley required to have a "tested scientific evidence (and minimal code model) for the phenomenon of "intelligence" and "intelligent cause"?"

Is he in violation of some law that exists only in your head?

For decades I have been testing/evaluating the latest models and theory pertaining to the phenomenon of "intelligence". I long ago took a HeathKit home study course in that too.

If Wesley has no model to evaluate then there is nothing anyone can even test. It's as simple as that.

Christ you're dense.

Your inability to respond to a simple question is legendary.

Let's try again....

Gary, why is Wesley required to have a model to evaluate?

A simple a question, let's see what gibberish non sequitur you come out with this time!

  
GaryGaulin



Posts: 5385
Joined: Oct. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 21 2014,21:32   

I seem to be getting the right waveform!  Wesley do you know how to tweak it to perfection?



https://sites.google.com/site.......on1.asc

--------------
The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.

   
GaryGaulin



Posts: 5385
Joined: Oct. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 21 2014,22:51   

Also, to better see the screen:
https://sites.google.com/site.......een.png

Required information for "Important Features of the Neuronal Action Potential":
http://www.physiologyweb.com/lecture....es.html


One for Texas Teach:
Neuroscience For Kids
https://faculty.washington.edu/chudler....ap.html

And:
Quote (Woodbine @ Dec. 21 2014,20:10)
Gary, why is Wesley required to have a model to evaluate?

If Wesley cannot beat the best model I know of for demonstrating intelligence and intelligent cause then they have nothing for anyone to even evaluate, test. It is also unreasonable to expect out of place detail that would limit the theory to only one level of intelligence (brains) of a model that has to work for any behavior, intelligent or not. It's not my fault their neural network models of "evolution" do not work in theory to explain how all possible intelligent and unintelligent behavior works.

--------------
The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.

   
Woodbine



Posts: 1218
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 22 2014,02:10   

Quote (GaryGaulin @ Dec. 22 2014,04:51)
 
Quote (Woodbine @ Dec. 21 2014,20:10)
Gary, why is Wesley required to have a model to evaluate?

If Wesley cannot beat the best model I know of for demonstrating intelligence and intelligent cause then they have nothing for anyone to even evaluate, test.

Ahh fuck it....serves me right for trying to communicate with him.

It's impossible.

He either can't read, won't read, or his mind is a riot of colour and sound that decoheres when it tries to interact with the outside world. Likely all three.

  
NoName



Posts: 2729
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 22 2014,07:29   

Quote (GaryGaulin @ Dec. 21 2014,23:51)
Also, to better see the screen:
https://sites.google.com/site.......een.png

Required information for "Important Features of the Neuronal Action Potential":
http://www.physiologyweb.com/lecture....es.html


One for Texas Teach:
Neuroscience For Kids
https://faculty.washington.edu/chudler....ap.html

And:
   
Quote (Woodbine @ Dec. 21 2014,20:10)
Gary, why is Wesley required to have a model to evaluate?

If Wesley cannot beat the best model I know of for demonstrating intelligence and intelligent cause

Two key points:
1) you are neither omniscient nor even particularly well-informed about models for demonstrating intelligence.  Thus, 'the best model you know of' is a poor pool of candidates at best.
2) no competing model is required to dismiss an alleged model that fails on its on merits, or  lack thereof.  Such as yours.

You are overly focused on models, and not focused on the required pre-requisites.
You are overly enamored of computer programs, to the detriment of all you attempt.
In part as a result of this 'programophilia', you make the trivial mistake of treating the mechanisms of 'intelligence' as binary, which is worse than ludicrous -- it is demonstrably incorrect.
The map is not the territory.  The map is not prescriptive of the territory.

 
Quote
then they have nothing for anyone to even evaluate, test.

Strictly false, as noted above.
 
Quote
It is also unreasonable to expect out of place detail that would limit the theory to only one level of intelligence (brains) of a model that has to work for any behavior, intelligent or not.

Which it demonstrably does not.
 
Quote
It's not my fault their neural network models of "evolution" do not work in theory to explain how all possible intelligent and unintelligent behavior works.

And why should they be expected to?
Evolution is neither required nor expected to explain intelligence in the sense you keep harping on.

Your work would go quite a bit better (that is, it would suck less, fail less spectacularly) if you were to provide specific operational definitions for your  key terms.
You are unable to do so because you do not know or understand what you are working on or with.

You make a serious mistake when you treat 'intelligence' as a unitary phenomenon without differentiation, multiple divergent implementations and expressions, and, ultimately, a polymorphic term.  It's as if you were insisting that flight can only be achieved by wing flapping and therefore a supersonic transport must have both motive power and lift supplied by the motion of the wings.  That leap of irrationality is formally identical to your insistence that all 'intelligence' is of one sort, it all operates the same way, it is all reducible to a single model, that model requires motors[!! so seriously deranged a view of 'intelligence' as to leave one awestruck at the stupidity responsible for such a naive and useless perspective], etc.

Look, we have already falsified your approach.  Your "theory" isn't a theory at all.  Your "theory" bears no resemblance to your software at all.  And vice versa.
Your "theory" claims to explain things it demonstrably cannot, because not all intelligent acts involve motor control.  That alone is sufficient to dismiss your nonsense, no competing theory required.  

Do you seriously believe that the act of generating a theory is the act of typing it out or writing it down?  Are you, at root, that befuddled?  The act of composing a symphony, or a melody, is not the act of scoring it or singing it or performing it.  No muscles are involved at all, yet the act is canonically intelligent.  Likewise the act of generating a hypothesis, the act of planning a move in a chess game, the creation of a story plot, the cognition of a literary work, etc.

  
N.Wells



Posts: 1836
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 22 2014,07:39   

Quote
It is also unreasonable to expect out of place detail that would limit the theory to only one level of intelligence (brains) of a model that has to work for any behavior, intelligent or not.
Since you see intelligence darn near everywhere at all levels, in your opinion what behavior would qualify as not intelligent, and why?

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4991
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 22 2014,08:14   

Gary:

Quote

their neural network models of "evolution"


That delivers a message of astounding ignorance, right there.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
N.Wells



Posts: 1836
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 22 2014,08:56   

Locomotion begins far down in prokaryotes, but that is primarily a matter of taxis / chemical responses.  Once animals develop muscles that require coordinated control and permit decisions about motions then we see a brain and the beginnings of intelligence at the broadest level as commonly understood (note that many specialists define intelligence much more narrowly).

Porifera: most have oscillation of choanocyte flagella, most have no other movement, although larvae and some adults have slightly more complex capabilities.  They lack neurons & nerves, but it is unclear whether they had them and lost them or never had them in the first place.  However, they may have neurotransmitters (precursors or substitutes) and they have the genes that are used in other animals for the postsynaptic density, although they are only used in flask cells in swimming larvae.  

Cnidaria:  They have a nerve net that connects sensory neurons to motor neurons, but no brain.  They control opening and closing of mouths, firing of cnidocytes, coordination of contraction of the body (swimming by pulsation of the bell in jellyfish; closure and even hopping in some sea anenomes).

Ctenophores: They also have a nerve net and no brain, controlling mostly the mouth and the balancing organ.


If you want to talk about intelligence getting underway or getting a huge boost as animals started to develop the levels of coordinated and volitional movement seen above sponges, thus linking control of movement to the emergence of intelligence, go for it.  If you want to claim a theory of all intelligence, then it needs to be able to explain behaviors at the peak of intelligence that do not involve motor control.  If you want to talk about intelligence at levels below brains (i.e., your molecular and cellular "intelligence") then you need redefinitions, operational definitions, and clear demonstration of something above and beyond basic physics, chemistry, and biochemistry.  "Black box" variable names in a computer program don't pass the bar.

  
NoName



Posts: 2729
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 22 2014,09:19   

Quote (N.Wells @ Dec. 22 2014,09:56)
...
If you want to talk about intelligence getting underway or getting a huge boost as animals started to develop the levels of coordinated and volitional movement seen above sponges, go for it, thus linking control of movement to the emergence of intelligence, go for it.  If you want to claim a theory of all intelligence, then it needs to be able to explain behaviors at the peak of intelligence that do not involve motor control.  If you want to talk about intelligence at levels below brains (i.e., molecular and cellular intelligence) then you need redefinitions, operational definitions, and clear demonstration of something above and beyond basic physics, chemistry, and biochemistry.  "Black box" variable names in a computer program don't pass the bar.

The problems with Gary's notions wrapped up neatly and succinctly.
The core is right there, entirely explicit, and using Gary's own requirement for a 'theory of intelligence'.

  
Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 22 2014,11:06   

Quote (N.Wells @ Dec. 22 2014,06:39)
Quote
It is also unreasonable to expect out of place detail that would limit the theory to only one level of intelligence (brains) of a model that has to work for any behavior, intelligent or not.
Since you see intelligence darn near everywhere at all levels, in your opinion what behavior would qualify as not intelligent, and why?

My "guess": Disagreeing with him, about nearly anything, but especially real-science.

  
GaryGaulin



Posts: 5385
Joined: Oct. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 22 2014,16:27   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Dec. 22 2014,08:14)
Gary:

Quote

their neural network models of "evolution"


That delivers a message of astounding ignorance, right there.

See the paper you linked me to, for the Avida based software you were working on. This sort of thing:

http://avida-ed.msu.edu/informa...._2.html

--------------
The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.

   
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