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Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 28 2008,21:19   

Courtesy of Paul Flocken:



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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
fusilier



Posts: 252
Joined: Feb. 2003

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 29 2008,07:08   

WRt Paul Nelson logging in and not posting any answers to that humongous list of questions....

I don't log in three-quarters of the time, but just lurk.  I'll bet that's also the case for most readers.  So the question pretty much asks itself:

Why Bother To Log In?

Is it some sort of exhibitionist fetish?  Or are there extensive Private Message exchanges going on?  Didn't anyone tell him that Janie and Corporal Kate are only "spiritually literal,"  not "literally literal?"

fusilier
James 2:24

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fusilier
James 2:24

  
Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 29 2008,09:47   

Quote
Why Bother To Log In?


Don't know about him, but in my case logging in is automatic; I'd have to do something extra to lurk without logging in.

Henry

  
Richard Simons



Posts: 425
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 29 2008,10:23   

He's back. Hi, Paul! Any replies to the questions?  
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All sweeping statements are wrong.

  
Paul Nelson



Posts: 43
Joined: July 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 29 2008,10:44   

Another periodic update.  Has any participant in this thread compiled a list of specific errors (in EE) he or she wishes to discuss?  Let me know, either here or via email (nelsonpa@alumni.uchicago.edu).

Alb, I'm not quite sure what your additional questions about Paul Chien concern.  We've changed his description to "biologist," which is accurate (he's the former chairman of the Dept. of Biology at University of San Francisco, etc.).  Do you disagree with Chien's argument that, if the conditions were right for fossilizing metazoan embryos, macroscopic body fossils could also have been preserved?  I'd welcome details, or literature citations, challenging that point.

My survey of the other questions above shows mostly "when did you stop beating your wife"-type questions -- e.g., Steve Story's [Steve, have you actually read EE?] or Lenny's -- or topics where I've already given my last word (e.g., the mammal-like reptiles illustration discussion, with Afarensis).   

I'm still interested, however, in learning about specific errors in EE.  In fact, I'll provide a free review copy of the book to anyone who promises actually to read it, and to notify me of any mistakes they may find.  Please email me with your name and regular mailing address if you'd like a copy of the book.

I'll continue to stop by here daily to see what mistakes readers have found in the first edition of EE.  

Thanks.

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 29 2008,11:06   

Quote (Paul Nelson @ Feb. 29 2008,10:44)
Another periodic update.  Has any participant in this thread compiled a list of specific errors (in EE) he or she wishes to discuss?  Let me know, either here or via email (nelsonpa@alumni.uchicago.edu).

Alb, I'm not quite sure what your additional questions about Paul Chien concern.  We've changed his description to "biologist," which is accurate (he's the former chairman of the Dept. of Biology at University of San Francisco, etc.).  Do you disagree with Chien's argument that, if the conditions were right for fossilizing metazoan embryos, macroscopic body fossils could also have been preserved?  I'd welcome details, or literature citations, challenging that point.

Paul

Welcome back.

Yes, Chien is a "biologist". But his credentials to make suggestions about Precambrian fossilization and its potential are the same as mine. Zero, zip, nada, nil. He's a toxicologist. I'm a cell biologist/biochemist. He has no peer-reviewed publications in the field of precambrian paleontology. I also have none. "I'd welcome details, or literature citations" supporting his point, which is the appropriate thing to do when you write a textbook. Where's the burden of proof for statements in a textbook? Not with the critics, but with the authors. That would be you.

If you are going to quote non-experts in your book and pretend that they are experts, then you can quote me.  
Quote
The lack of fossils documenting the development of organisms in the Precambrian period is not a problem, but probably merely reflects the difficulty in finding soft-bodied fossils in rocks which are very very old." - David A. Rintoul, Ph.D. Biologist (Stanford 1977) and Associate Director of the Division of Biology, Kansas State University.

I'll look forward to your next printing...

Or maybe you can find a real paleontologist and see if he/she agrees with Chien's maunderings on page 31, which are (hysterically) in a section labeled "further debate". That is what real textbook authors do. They don't take the word of non-experts who just happen to be DI Fellows; they research the topic a bit more thoroughly than that.

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Paul Nelson



Posts: 43
Joined: July 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 29 2008,11:45   

Hi Alb (David),

I've seen personally Paul Chien's SEMs of fossil embryos from Chengjiang, where for several years he did fieldwork under the supervision of paleontologist J.Y. Chen.  The degree of preservation of these embryos is astonishing (for instance, cellular structures and yolk granules are unmistakable).  Chien is qualified to express an opinion in this area.

But I agree with you that additional documentation is needed for the general point on p. 31; here's a recent paper:

Quote
We conclude that a careful interpretation of all available evidence, particularly paleontological data, presents strong evidence that most major animal lineages originated in a relatively short period of time and therefore that the Cambrian radiation represents a real and significant event in the history of life, and not some artifact of taphonomy or of a poor fossil record.


Paulyn Cartwright and Allen Collins, "Fossils and phylogenies: integrating multiple lines of evidence to investigate the origin of early major metazoan lineages," Integrative and Comparative Biology 47 (2007):744-751; p. 749, emphasis added.

We'll provide additional support from the literature for Chien's position.

  
Paul Nelson



Posts: 43
Joined: July 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 29 2008,11:48   

I just noticed that Paulyn Cartwright is in the EEB program at the U of Kansas, Lawrence.  Your neighborhood.

  
Richardthughes



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Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 29 2008,13:27   

Another one:

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"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
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Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 29 2008,13:34   

Quote (Paul Nelson @ Feb. 29 2008,11:45)
Chien is qualified to express an opinion in this area.

Your definition of "qualified" differs from mine. If I wrote a textbook and wanted to define "qualified", I would start with the requirement for peer-reviewed publications in the area of interest. Toxicologists who spend time with paleontologists do not become paleontologists by association, and their opinions about paleontology are not any better than mine.

 
Quote
But I agree with you that additional documentation is needed for the general point on p. 31; here's a recent paper:

     
Quote
We conclude that a careful interpretation of all available evidence, particularly paleontological data, presents strong evidence that most major animal lineages originated in a relatively short period of time and therefore that the Cambrian radiation represents a real and significant event in the history of life, and not some artifact of taphonomy or of a poor fossil record.

Interesting goal-post move. The discussion on p. 31 centers on the lack of Precambrian fossils, or fossils of the ancestors of the Cambrian fauna. From p. 31 of EE - "If the Precambrian rocks can preserve microscopic soft-bodied organisms, why don't they contain the ancestors to the Cambrian animals?". Your citation of Cartwright and Collins, regarding the Cambrian fossil record,  seems irrelevant to me. I might also point out that these authors do not cite Paul Chien, your "expert". Maybe that means that they are unaware of his contributions to their field, so it might be a good thing to let them know about his opinions (since he doesn't seem to have any peer-reviewed publications in the field).

But I could be wrong, and, as pointed out before, my opinion is not relevant here either. We are discussing how to write a textbook, and soliciting opinions from non-experts is not a preferred strategy. How about this? Why don't you contact Paulyn Cartwright (pcart@ku.edu) and Allen Collins (collinsa@si.edu), send them a PDF of pp 15-38 of EE, highlight Chien's amateur opinion on p. 31, and ask them for their expert opinion? I'd be happy to do that if you don't have the time, but since you are the author of this book, it seems to me that is really your responsibility.

And do let us know their response, please.

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 29 2008,14:41   

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Doc Bill



Posts: 1039
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 29 2008,16:24   

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ July 17 2007,17:47)
Quote (Paul Nelson @ July 17 2007,17:32)
(from Seattle)

Albatrossity,

I missed that description of P.K. Chien when reviewing the galleys, but will check with the author who drafted the section (it wasn't me).  "Marine biologist" or "biologist" would be a better term.

Sorry you won't be wagering, Steve.

Well, actually, "toxicologist" would be an even more accurate description. Of the 10 biologically-relevant papers attributed to him on Web of Science, the most recent one being 1995, one is on yeast, three are on non-marine worms, one is on human erythrocytes,  and 5 are on various marine or saltmarsh organisms. ALMOST ALL of them deal with heavy metal toxicity. His qualifications to comment on a fossil and its relevance to the bogus "artifact hypothesis" seem to me to be non-existent. Finally, his publication record would suggest that he might not even be up to speed in toxicology...

I'm sure that this will be changed in the next printing, but that section should read "toxicologist" rather than marine paleobiologist. Of course, that wouldn't be as impressive in the context of that paragraph.

thanks

Yowzer!

If it's taken 7 months and Nelson still doesn't have the toxicologist/biologist story straight, having started with "marine paleobiologist" then getting an actual substantial change to the text is going to be harder than pulling hen's teeth!

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 29 2008,20:43   

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Almost missed that one.

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Doc Bill



Posts: 1039
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 29 2008,23:12   

Lookie, lookie!

Me and Paul signed on at the same frickin' time!

What are the odds of that?  Got to be something like ten to the hundredth or something.  

What do you think, Paul?  Isn't it dangerous for us to be signed on at the SAME TIME?

Think about it:  smart and anti-smart.

I provide evidence, you provide equivocation.
I provide questions, you provide quibbles.
I excuse myself for verbosity, you verbalize excuses.

Too bad you didn't have enough time in your dilettante schedule to chat, but you coy little devil, always talking about chatting but never quite getting around to it.  Busy schedule and all, Italy and intertubes, etc.

We understand, Paul.  We really do.

  
fusilier



Posts: 252
Joined: Feb. 2003

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 01 2008,07:21   

OK, Dr. Nelson, you are on.

I am PM'ing you my snail-mail address and expect a desk-copy in the near future.  Just FYI, I tried to obtain onewhen the book first came out - having suggested to the administration that a course using this as one text might be suitable for a GenEd science requirement.

I received no answer.

fusilier
James 2:24

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fusilier
James 2:24

  
Paul Nelson



Posts: 43
Joined: July 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 01 2008,10:10   

Replies to various:

Fusilier, you requested Edge of Evolution in your PM.  I assume you want Explore Evolution?  Let me know.

Alb, I think I will contact Cartwright and Collins.  The phosphorite beds at Chengjiang that yield fossil embryos lie directly beneath the "Cambrian Explosion" (macroscopic body fossil) strata.  When I was there in 1999, I heard debate about whether those lower strata were early Cambrian or preCambrian.

Doc Bill -- I'm sorry, I missed your question about an error in EE.  Do you mind posting it again?  Thanks.

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 01 2008,10:13   

Quote (Paul Nelson @ Feb. 29 2008,11:45)
But I agree with you that additional documentation is needed for the general point on p. 31; here's a recent paper:

 
Quote
We conclude that a careful interpretation of all available evidence, particularly paleontological data, presents strong evidence that most major animal lineages originated in a relatively short period of time and therefore that the Cambrian radiation represents a real and significant event in the history of life, and not some artifact of taphonomy or of a poor fossil record.


Paulyn Cartwright and Allen Collins, "Fossils and phylogenies: integrating multiple lines of evidence to investigate the origin of early major metazoan lineages," Integrative and Comparative Biology 47 (2007):744-751; p. 749, emphasis added.

We'll provide additional support from the literature for Chien's position.

Paul - I have helped you out and highlighted the words that are important to your position.  

Perhaps this could lead to the book being retitled "The Book of Extraordinary Vageness".

Or perhaps " Disengenousness For Fun and Profit".

You be The Decider.

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 01 2008,11:07   

Quote (Paul Nelson @ Mar. 01 2008,10:10)
Alb, I think I will contact Cartwright and Collins.  The phosphorite beds at Chengjiang that yield fossil embryos lie directly beneath the "Cambrian Explosion" (macroscopic body fossil) strata.  When I was there in 1999, I heard debate about whether those lower strata were early Cambrian or preCambrian.

That's amusing as well. The argument was NOT whether those fossil beds are Cambrian or Precambrian, but whether the discussion in Cartwright and Collins' paper about Cambrian fossilization was relevant to your argument in EE ("If the Precambrian rocks can preserve microscopic soft-bodied organisms, why don't they contain the ancestors to the Cambrian animals?"). If the Chengjiang strata are Precambrian, your quoting of that paper is irrelevant. If the strata are Cambrian, Chien's argument about the lack of evidence for Precambrian ancestors is bogus.  That's an interesting choice you've set up for yourself; I'll be waiting to see how you resolve it.

Furthermore, if you do contact Cartwright and Collins, it might be good if you read their entire paper first. Particularly this section from p 749      
Quote
These data support the idea that the metazoan ancestor was equipped with the molecular tools necessary for the specification of complex body plans. Thus, currently available genomic data supports the origin of a complex genome predating the Cambrian radiation, with the ancestral genome possessing the molecular toolkit necessary for an ‘‘explosion’’ of body plans and complex traits. While the availability of genomes from other early-diverging lineages will allow for a more precise reconstruction of the genetic makeup in the lineages leading to the first modern metazoans, the trigger for the Cambrian radiation likely lies in the changing ecological circumstances resulting from the origin of the body plans associated with the early metazoan lineages.

In other words, genomic data, even in the absence of fossil data for some of the important nodes, provide evidence that will help us understand the Cambrian explosion. These data, along with fossil data (present and as-yet-undiscovered) represent an infinite increase over the complete lack of data for your preferred explanation ("God did it"). The strawman "artifact hypothesis", coined by creationists and attacked by you using Chien's amateur opinion, is not the sole underpinning of evolutionary thinking re the Cambrian explosion.

Finally, it is important to point out that this argument, like ALL arguments in EE, is essentially born-again creationism, a creationist argument sanitized for constitutional protection. EE is not a modern textbook; it does not take into account much of modern biological research (including the genomic data used by Cartwright and Collins). It merely recycles ancient creationist canards, as pointed out by Cartwright and Collins in the sentence preceding the single one that you quoted.    
Quote
The biological significance of the Cambrian radiation has been debated ever since the publication of ‘‘The Origin of Species’’ (Darwin 1872) and was in fact the subject of some concern to Darwin (Lieberman 1999), causing him to claim that there must be a long-hidden history of animals; others have argued that there was a real explosion of animals during the late Neoproterozoic/early Cambrian transition (Valentine 2004).

Using modern creationists such as Chien to generate bogus statements of authority does not make those ancient hand-wavings any more valid. That validity awaits the day that creationists generate some hypotheses, perform some experiments that support those hypotheses, and publish them in peer-reviewed journals for the rest of the scientific community to see and to criticize if needed.

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
JAM



Posts: 517
Joined: July 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 01 2008,11:44   

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Mar. 01 2008,11:07)
That validity awaits the day that creationists generate some hypotheses, perform some experiments that support those hypotheses,

Or, they could make new observations, too, like predicting in which stratum particular fossils will be found, and then finding them for themselves.
Quote
... and publish them in peer-reviewed journals for the rest of the scientific community to see and to criticize if needed.

I disagree; we can lower the bar in this matter.

They could publish their new data on their personal Myspace or Facebook pages for all I care, but the bottom line is that Paul Nelson and his comrades have absolutely zero faith that their own hypotheses will hold up to any observational or experimental testing of their predictions.

They have a profoundly lazy and faithless approach to what they falsely present as science to the lay public.

  
Paul Flocken



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Joined: Dec. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 01 2008,18:09   

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"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie--deliberate, contrived, and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic.  Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."-John F. Kennedy

  
Doc Bill



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Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 01 2008,19:34   

Quote
Doc Bill -- I'm sorry, I missed your question about an error in EE.  Do you mind posting it again?  Thanks.


How could I point out an error in a work of fiction, Paul?

  
Frank J



Posts: 5
Joined: Jan. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 02 2008,08:31   

Can someone please save me the trouble of searching old posts and tell me if everyone (particularly Paul N and Paul C) agrees with Michael Behe as to approximately when the Precambrian began and ended?

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An election is where 2 or more salesmen compete for the job of serviceman, and the best salesman wins.

  
Jim_Wynne



Posts: 1208
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 02 2008,09:20   

In typical creationist fashion, Paul says he'll drop in from time to time to see if we've identified any errors in his book, but also says tacitly that he'll either ignore them or create new lies.

By the way, Paul, why is the Debate page on the Explore Evolution still empty?

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Evolution is not about laws but about randomness on happanchance.--Robert Byers, at PT

  
fusilier



Posts: 252
Joined: Feb. 2003

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 02 2008,12:23   

My apologies to Dr. Nelson.

I had confused Edge of Evolution with Explore Evolution.  Dr. Nelson has kindly offered to send me a desk copy of his book in any event.

fusilier
James 2:24

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fusilier
James 2:24

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 03 2008,10:16   

So many questions, so little time.

Quote
Paul Nelson   Viewing a topic in: After the Bar Closes...   Mar. 03 2008,08:53


--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 03 2008,17:33   

And yet again.
Quote
Paul Nelson   Viewing Board index   Mar. 03 2008,17:02


--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 04 2008,15:12   

Yawn.  
Quote
Paul Nelson   Viewing a topic in: After the Bar Closes...   Mar. 04 2008,14:34

Seriously, Paul. What is the point of visiting here so frequently and not participating in the discussions?

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Paul Nelson



Posts: 43
Joined: July 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 05 2008,10:48   

Hi Alb,

I've stated my interest (above): I'm looking for evidence of specific errors in Explore Evolution.  But this thread has a tendency to wind along in tendentious directions, subject to the vagaries of those posting here. For instance:

You originally raised a concern about the description of Paul Chien, which I answered: in the second edition of EE, he will be described as a "biologist."  You then said that the real issue, actually, was relying on Chien as an authority about fossilization potential, whatever his description, and that independent support for his point about pre-Cambrian and Cambrian fossils was lacking.

However, many paleontologists reject the view (which you apparently support) that the lack of fossil evidence for the common ancestors of the "Cambrian Explosion" phyla is due to poor or incomplete sampling.  Chien argues that if fossil embryos could be preserved, in phosphorite beds lying directly below the Cambrian Explosion strata at Chengjiang -- I've seen these formations first-hand, along with Chien -- then body fossils should also be found, if they indeed existed.  This is in support of EE's general point that the missing fossils are not missing for lack of sampling.  (I'm going to contact Cartwright and Collins about this, too.)

Many leading paleontologists, with no ID position to speak of, agree:

 
Quote
Rates of evolution have varied significantly among and within branches throughout life's history, and many of the branches, large as well as small, are cryptogenetic (cannot be traced into ancestors).  Some of these gaps are surely caused by the incompleteness of the fossil record (chap. 5), but that cannot be the sole explanation for the cryptogenetic nature of some families, many invertebrate orders, all invertebrate classes, and all metazoan phyla.


James Valentine, On the Origin of Phyla (Univ. of Chicago Press, 2004), p. 35.

Does Valentine think the animal phyla share common ancestry?  Yes.  Does he think that their common ancestry is documented by fossils?  No.

Which is what Chien is saying.

I've already agreed to strengthen the literature support for this point in the second edition of EE.

One person, fusilier, took me up on my offer of a free review copy of EE.  Anyone else?

Now, if you want to argue about what you perceive as the real motivations for writing EE (Alb), or about unspecified ID fiction-writing (Doc Bill), or other such "when did you stop beating your wife" topics, sorry -- not interested.

Anyone who points out specific factual errors in EE, however, will have my full attention.

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 05 2008,11:18   

Quote (Paul Nelson @ Mar. 05 2008,11:48)
Now, if you want to argue about what you perceive as the real motivations for writing EE...sorry -- not interested.

Not much to discuss there. It's poorly-disguised creationist book. You wrote it to promote your creationism. Duh.

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 05 2008,11:23   

Face it Paul, the Discovery Institute isn't paying you to Not promote creationism.

(They're paying you to not write your Ontogenetic Depth 'theory'. (I need a rimshot sound effect))

   
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