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Antievolution.org Discussion Board > From the Panda's Thumb > After the Bar Closes... > Can you do geology and junk the evolution bits ?

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khan Posts: 1554 Joined: May 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2009,14:16    Quote (Doc Bill @ Oct. 09 2009,15:13) Ohhhhhh, Flood Geology AND bullshit! My two favorite topics. Global flood, eh, Clownshoes?  Rough ride for Noah in a wooden boat stuffed with animals and dinosaurs. But, let's back up a sec.  Before you can carve the Grand Canyon you've got a water problem to solve.  It appears that in order to flood the planet with enough water to cover the mountains (and I'm not going to quibble with you that Mt. Everest was "a lot shorter then than it is today") you pick the depth. You need about 600 million cubic miles of water more than there is on the planet.  That's roughly the area of Texas to a depth of 300 miles, to give you a visual. So, where did all the water come from? And, more importantly as this bears directly on Grand Canyon carving, once the planet was completely covered in water, how did it drain? Oh, and that "poisonous atmosphere" you commented about, that's called Academic Freedom.  I thought you supported that. And why is there only one Grand Canyon and why that particular location? -------------- "It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad Frequency is just the plural of wavelength... -JoeG

Doc Bill Posts: 1039 Joined: April 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2009,14:41    The Grand Canyon is in Arizona because Arizona is the "Grand Canyon state!" Don't you know anything, Khan?

khan Posts: 1554 Joined: May 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2009,14:45    Quote (Doc Bill @ Oct. 09 2009,15:41) The Grand Canyon is in Arizona because Arizona is the "Grand Canyon state!" Don't you know anything, Khan? Are you working on a degree in theology? :) -------------- "It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad Frequency is just the plural of wavelength... -JoeG

Louis Posts: 6436 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2009,15:12    Quote (Doc Bill @ Oct. 09 2009,20:13) [SNIP] So, where did all the water come from? And, more importantly as this bears directly on Grand Canyon carving, once the planet was completely covered in water, how did it drain? [SNIP] Heyyyyyyy I wanted to ask that!* Didn't you get the message via the Evil Atheist Conspiracy Channels (which of course don't exist). The EAC: Now with even less belief in Jesus.** Louis * I just love reading/hearing about new thermodynamic methods for moving enormous quantities of water in incredibly short timespaces without broiling, well, everything. We may even get to superfast continents wanging about the globe fast enough to turn to plasma. Always a favourite. ** We don't believe in other deities either, but as Clownshoes said, some of us probably don't even believe Jesus existed, so I thought I'd focus on that fictional character this once. Next post's Sponsor Deity: Amaterasu Omikami! -------------- Bye.

Schroedinger's Dog Posts: 1692 Joined: Jan. 2009 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2009,15:15    Quote (Louis @ Oct. 09 2009,19:17) Forgive me because I intend to quote Frankfurt on this one: Ok, who here is even remotely surprised that louis needs to "quote" a Frankfurt?* *Sorry, but since this thread looks more and more like a peanut gallery I thought my expertise on the subject of not-so-subtle penis references might be needed... -------------- "Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G "I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis "The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

JohnW Posts: 3217 Joined: Aug. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2009,16:23    Quote (Louis @ Oct. 09 2009,13:12) * I just love reading/hearing about new thermodynamic methods for moving enormous quantities of water in incredibly short timespaces without broiling, well, everything. We may even get to superfast continents wanging about the globe fast enough to turn to plasma. Always a favourite. No need.  Fiddling with the weak nuclear force in order to make all radioactive dating wrong already broiled everything. -------------- Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

JohnW Posts: 3217 Joined: Aug. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2009,16:25    Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Oct. 09 2009,13:15) *Sorry, but since this thread looks more and more like a peanut gallery I thought my expertise on the subject of not-so-subtle penis references might be needed... That's a little unnecessary, SD.  The last thing Louis needs help with is knob jokes. -------------- Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

Louis Posts: 6436 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2009,16:48    Quote (JohnW @ Oct. 09 2009,22:23) Quote (Louis @ Oct. 09 2009,13:12) * I just love reading/hearing about new thermodynamic methods for moving enormous quantities of water in incredibly short timespaces without broiling, well, everything. We may even get to superfast continents wanging about the globe fast enough to turn to plasma. Always a favourite. No need.  Fiddling with the weak nuclear force in order to make all radioactive dating wrong already broiled everything. Yeah. Quote That's a little unnecessary, SD.  The last thing Louis needs help with is knob jokes. Yeah. Wait.....HEY! Louis -------------- Bye.

Timothy McDougald Posts: 1036 Joined: Dec. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2009,19:05    Quote And, more importantly as this bears directly on Grand Canyon carving, once the planet was completely covered in water, how did it drain? Snowball earth? -------------- Church burning ebola boy FTK: I Didn't answer your questions because it beats the hell out of me. PaV: I suppose for me to be pried away from what I do to focus long and hard on that particular problem would take, quite honestly, hundreds of thousands of dollars to begin to pique my interest.

Reed Posts: 274 Joined: Feb. 2008 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2009,19:33    Quote (afarensis @ Oct. 09 2009,17:05)   Quote And, more importantly as this bears directly on Grand Canyon carving, once the planet was completely covered in water, how did it drain? Snowball earth? :p Nah, I'm sure some aquatic ape pulled the drain plug. I haz a book that sez so! eta: Quote (Doc Bill @ Oct. 09 2009,12:13) Ohhhhhh, Flood Geology AND bullshit! My two favorite topics. Hmm, are you sure that is two topics ?

Schroedinger's Dog Posts: 1692 Joined: Jan. 2009 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2009,19:36    Quote (afarensis @ Oct. 10 2009,02:05) Quote And, more importantly as this bears directly on Grand Canyon carving, once the planet was completely covered in water, how did it drain? Snowball earth? :p Yeah, I knew this whole flud thing was about snowballing -------------- "Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G "I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis "The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

Texas Teach Posts: 2084 Joined: April 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2009,21:26    Quote (Tracy P. Hamilton @ Oct. 09 2009,11:40) Quote (Texas Teach @ Oct. 08 2009,22:05) Quote (deadman_932 @ Oct. 08 2009,18:38) What the..?!? Why are you damned Euros all drinking avocados and wearing pasties?  And why does "avocat" and spanish "abogado" sound like an avocado? Do they expect some damn fruit to become a lawyer over there? Never mind, don't answer that, you'll probably show me some fat european lawyer in a speedo smeared in avocados and wearing pasties. Frankly, you Europeans should be ashamed of yourselves. Wildly off-topic, but y'all have broken the chew toy anyway... I had a student a few years back who simply couldn't prevent herself from calling 6.022*10^23 Avocado's number.  I always had to suppress a giggle. Avocado's number is a guaca-mole. Consider that stolen.   -------------- "Creationists think everything Genesis says is true. I don't even think Phil Collins is a good drummer." --J. Carr "I suspect that the English grammar books where you live are outdated" --G. Gaulin

Henry J Posts: 5786 Joined: Mar. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2009,21:43    Quote So, where did all the water come from? And, more importantly as this bears directly on Grand Canyon carving, once the planet was completely covered in water, how did it drain? Yeah, where it went after is the better question, since it could have come from comets or something else from space. But coming down is easier than going away after getting here. Henry

Amadan Posts: 1337 Joined: Jan. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2009,08:11    Quote (Doc Bill @ Oct. 09 2009,14:13) And, more importantly as this bears directly on Grand Canyon carving, once the planet was completely covered in water, how did it drain? Easy when you know how: Edit for speling -------------- "People are always looking for natural selection to generate random mutations" - Densye  4-4-2011 JoeG BTW dumbass- some variations help ensure reproductive fitness so they cannot be random wrt it.

Louis Posts: 6436 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2009,11:03    Quote (khan @ Oct. 09 2009,20:16) Quote (Doc Bill @ Oct. 09 2009,15:13) Ohhhhhh, Flood Geology AND bullshit! My two favorite topics. Global flood, eh, Clownshoes?  Rough ride for Noah in a wooden boat stuffed with animals and dinosaurs. But, let's back up a sec.  Before you can carve the Grand Canyon you've got a water problem to solve.  It appears that in order to flood the planet with enough water to cover the mountains (and I'm not going to quibble with you that Mt. Everest was "a lot shorter then than it is today") you pick the depth. You need about 600 million cubic miles of water more than there is on the planet.  That's roughly the area of Texas to a depth of 300 miles, to give you a visual. So, where did all the water come from? And, more importantly as this bears directly on Grand Canyon carving, once the planet was completely covered in water, how did it drain? Oh, and that "poisonous atmosphere" you commented about, that's called Academic Freedom.  I thought you supported that. And why is there only one Grand Canyon and why that particular location? By the way, and I know this is late, but I just want to say that this is a bloody good question that should be used a lot more. It cuts right to the heart of the glib superficiality of the creationist claims. Khan, your prize is 4 quatloos, 1 internet and absolutely no goes on Arden unless you really want to. Louis -------------- Bye.

deadman_932 Posts: 3094 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2009,11:11    Yo, Amadan? Your planet's leaking. -------------- AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

Henry J Posts: 5786 Joined: Mar. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2009,12:18    Quote khan: And why is there only one Grand Canyon and why that particular location? Yeah. Evidence for a world-wide event would have to be, shall we say, world wide. Think iridium layer, or something analogous. Henry

Doc Bill Posts: 1039 Joined: April 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2009,12:53    There isn't a Grand Canyon in Rhode Island because it's too small. There was supposed to be a Grand Canyon in the Caribbean but due to a typo it came out Grand Cayman.

Timothy McDougald Posts: 1036 Joined: Dec. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2009,13:42    Quote (Henry J @ Oct. 10 2009,12:18) Quote khan: And why is there only one Grand Canyon and why that particular location? Yeah. Evidence for a world-wide event would have to be, shall we say, world wide. Think iridium layer, or something analogous. Henry Well now, if one takes the top of Mt. Everest as their starting point then the rest of the world could be considered one giant canyon.   -------------- Church burning ebola boy FTK: I Didn't answer your questions because it beats the hell out of me. PaV: I suppose for me to be pried away from what I do to focus long and hard on that particular problem would take, quite honestly, hundreds of thousands of dollars to begin to pique my interest.

khan Posts: 1554 Joined: May 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2009,14:10    Quote (afarensis @ Oct. 10 2009,14:42) Quote (Henry J @ Oct. 10 2009,12:18) Quote khan: And why is there only one Grand Canyon and why that particular location? Yeah. Evidence for a world-wide event would have to be, shall we say, world wide. Think iridium layer, or something analogous. Henry Well now, if one takes the top of Mt. Everest as their starting point then the rest of the world could be considered one giant canyon.  :D Well, the planet was flat back then. -------------- "It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad Frequency is just the plural of wavelength... -JoeG

HelpingHand Posts: 6 Joined: Feb. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2009,15:18    Quote (Louis @ Oct. 10 2009,11:03)   Quote (khan @ Oct. 09 2009,20:16) And why is there only one Grand Canyon and why that particular location? By the way, and I know this is late, but I just want to say that this is a bloody good question that should be used a lot more. It cuts right to the heart of the glib superficiality of the creationist claims. I tried that angle a few years back with a creationist in the forums for the Weather Channel.  (What can I say?  It was one of the few sites that came through the company firewall and twelve hour graveyard shifts streeeeetch...) I was informed that the Grand Canyon, La Petite Canyon and Average Canyon in addition to every river valley, mountain pass, scabland, trench, ditch and culvert on the planet were evidence of the Great Flood.  The only reason the Grand Canyon keeps coming up is because us atheistic evilutionists keep harping on it while ignoring all the rest of the evidence.  Typical of our godless intellectually dishonest ilk.

Timothy McDougald Posts: 1036 Joined: Dec. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2009,15:22    Quote (khan @ Oct. 10 2009,14:10) Quote (afarensis @ Oct. 10 2009,14:42) Quote (Henry J @ Oct. 10 2009,12:18)   Quote khan: And why is there only one Grand Canyon and why that particular location? Yeah. Evidence for a world-wide event would have to be, shall we say, world wide. Think iridium layer, or something analogous. Henry Well now, if one takes the top of Mt. Everest as their starting point then the rest of the world could be considered one giant canyon.  :D Well, the planet was flat back then. Yup, and mountains aren't really the result of uplift. They are canyon walls from when the flood carved the flat earth! Jeebus Wins! -------------- Church burning ebola boy FTK: I Didn't answer your questions because it beats the hell out of me. PaV: I suppose for me to be pried away from what I do to focus long and hard on that particular problem would take, quite honestly, hundreds of thousands of dollars to begin to pique my interest.

Quack Posts: 1961 Joined: May 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2009,15:57    There is a canyon somewhere in the Himalayas that is a rather recent discovery. AiG didn't know anything about it when I asked a few years ago. From what I remember, it seemed that as far as science was concerned the canyon could only be the result of events spread out over a long time period. This, I believe. Edit, added link. -------------- Rocks have no biology.               Robert Byers.

Occam's Toothbrush Posts: 555 Joined: April 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2009,16:30    Quote (Doc Bill @ Oct. 10 2009,13:53) There isn't a Grand Canyon in Rhode Island because it's too small. You can't prove Narragansett Bay wasn't created by a global flood.  Therefore Jebus. -------------- "Molecular stuff seems to me not to be biology as much as it is a more atomic element of life" --Creo nut Robert Byers ------ "You need your arrogant ass kicked, and I would LOVE to be the guy who does it. Where do you live?" --Anger Management Problem Concern Troll "Kris"

khan Posts: 1554 Joined: May 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2009,16:33    Wouldn't a world wide flood sufficient to carve out the Grand Canyon also be sufficient to erode all the mountains flat? And wouldn't everything then come out even? -------------- "It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad Frequency is just the plural of wavelength... -JoeG

Dr.GH Posts: 2333 Joined: May 2002 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2009,22:50    Quote (HelpingHand @ Oct. 10 2009,13:18) Typical of our godless intellectually dishonest ilk. Yeah, what you said. Well,so, welcome to the swamp. It looks better already. -------------- "Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy." L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

Scienthuse Posts: 43 Joined: Sep. 2009 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2009,21:20    I'm sure I will be criticized for something I say but I didn't want you guys to get too bored.  So at least I have a purpose being the oddball. Anyway, this is for Lou who called me an idiot and a moron--I guess I must have really got under his skin--  concerning our little tussle over "imply" and "infer."   Main Entry: in·fer 4 : suggest, hint <are you inferring I'm incompetent?>intransitive verb "infer" seems to have a broader array of definitions--but basically I used it correctly in asking--"...Are you inferring I'm misrepresenting myself?" I've seen a few things you guys have been discussing about the flood.  First of all, current YEC theory believes tectonics and/or vulcanism to be major players in the flood, not just water.   Louis mentioned thermodynamics and the broiling of things by the sediment and water.  Why? If the water was rising slowly over 40 days then it would have reached different levels in different geographical areas.  So different events would be happening at different times. If there was alot of thermodynamic effect by fast moving sediment we would have convective heat transfer in the water and alot of potential for diffusion of the heat. Also, it was asked where did the water come from and where did it go.  There are different theories.  Not to escape the issue but isn't that like asking where did hydrogen come from?  Yes I know--after the big bang it just formed--but isn't that kind of like the antithesis of  "God did it."

Erasmus, FCD Posts: 6349 Joined: June 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2009,21:47    Quote (Scienthuse @ Oct. 14 2009,22:20) I'm sure I will be criticized for something I say but I didn't want you guys to get too bored.  So at least I have a purpose being the oddball. Anyway, this is for Lou who called me an idiot and a moron--I guess I must have really got under his skin--  concerning our little tussle over "imply" and "infer."   Main Entry: in·fer 4 : suggest, hint <are you inferring I'm incompetent?>intransitive verb "infer" seems to have a broader array of definitions--but basically I used it correctly in asking--"...Are you inferring I'm misrepresenting myself?" I've seen a few things you guys have been discussing about the flood.  First of all, current YEC theory believes tectonics and/or vulcanism to be major players in the flood, not just water.   Louis mentioned thermodynamics and the broiling of things by the sediment and water.  Why? If the water was rising slowly over 40 days then it would have reached different levels in different geographical areas.  So different events would be happening at different times. If there was alot of thermodynamic effect by fast moving sediment we would have convective heat transfer in the water and alot of potential for diffusion of the heat. Also, it was asked where did the water come from and where did it go.  There are different theories.  Not to escape the issue but isn't that like asking where did hydrogen come from?  Yes I know--after the big bang it just formed--but isn't that kind of like the antithesis of  "God did it." Scienthuse, Mt Everest was how high before the flood?  And how high is it now?  We need rough estimates of these parameters for your model before we can estimate the heat involved. seashells on everest + young earth = origin from flood, right? just making sure this is your argument before we start boiling ham shem and japheth alive. -------------- You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

Henry J Posts: 5786 Joined: Mar. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2009,22:03    Quote Louis mentioned thermodynamics and the broiling of things by the sediment and water.  Why? Maybe because that much moving around of stuff creates heat? Quote If there was alot of thermodynamic effect by fast moving sediment we would have convective heat transfer in the water and a lot of potential for diffusion of the heat. Diffusion to where? I thought you were referring to something planet wide. Henry

Reed Posts: 274 Joined: Feb. 2008 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2009,22:42    Quote (Scienthuse @ Oct. 14 2009,19:20) Also, it was asked where did the water come from and where did it go.  There are different theories.  Not to escape the issue but isn't that like asking where did hydrogen come from? Yes I know--after the big bang it just formed-- No, it isn't remotely comparable. You can reasonably say that the big bang "just happened", and that the particular physical laws and fundamental constants we ended up with may well be arbitrary. If it makes you feel better, you can even stuff your own personal god in there, although he doesn't add any explanatory value. From that first few milliseconds onward, things appear to follow those laws in a coherent manner. As best as we can tell, millions of cubic miles of water don't just poof out of nowhere, and poof back to nowhere later. If you are going to insert "supernatural shit happened" anywhere your theory seems to contradict what we understand about the universe, why bother trying to match it up to evidence at all ?

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