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Quack Posts: 1961 Joined: May 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 13 2012,13:49    Bump bummp... -------------- Rocks have no biology.               Robert Byers.

Henry J Posts: 5786 Joined: Mar. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 13 2012,14:13    Quote Another interesting link I failed to save: Experiment with single celled life, one species being preyed upon by another species resulting in the prey clumping together, evolving in the course of 1000 generations to an optimum of eight cells. To counter the threat from the 'predator' species. Most interesting is they decided to remain an eight-celled 'species' even after the predator species was removed from the environment. I trust somebody to help me out this time too. At a guess, to revert to real single cell instead of octets, it would need presence of alleles that do that (which might mean more mutations), and those alleles would need to be non-detrimental.

OgreMkV Posts: 3668 Joined: Oct. 2009 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 13 2012,14:22    Quote (Quack @ Aug. 13 2012,13:48) Another interesting link I failed to save: Experiment with single celled life, one species being preyed upon by another species resulting in the prey clumping together, evolving in the course of 1000 generations to an optimum of eight cells. To counter the threat from the 'predator' species. Most interesting is they decided to remain an eight-celled 'species' even after the predator species was removed from the environment. I trust somebody to help me out this time too. This is similar, but I don't think it's the exact one: http://www.pnas.org/content....5323109 It may be, that's all I could find.  I remember the article you're taking about.  I may have even referenced it on my blog... oh wait... here you go: http://www.springerlink.com/content....?MUD=MP -------------- Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims. http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

Quack Posts: 1961 Joined: May 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 13 2012,16:30    That was the one. I got to thinking: We have spent so much money on the LHC, Curiosity and I don't know what; what if we spend some dough on experimental evolution? Set up something like that one on a bigger scale & budget, let it run run run forever and see what happens? I suppose there may be many interesting variations to be played on the same theme; creating a veritable showcase for evolution in action? -------------- Rocks have no biology.               Robert Byers.

MichaelJ Posts: 462 Joined: June 2009 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 14 2012,03:02    Quote (Quack @ Aug. 14 2012,07:30) That was the one. I got to thinking: We have spent so much money on the LHC, Curiosity and I don't know what; what if we spend some dough on experimental evolution? Set up something like that one on a bigger scale & budget, let it run run run forever and see what happens? I suppose there may be many interesting variations to be played on the same theme; creating a veritable showcase for evolution in action? Didn't we do that in the 1950s? I saw some old documentaries about it. Remember "The Blob", "The attack of the killer tomatoes" and one which had giant teenage girls in bikinis.

midwifetoad Posts: 4003 Joined: Mar. 2008 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 14 2012,18:44    http://news.sciencemag.org/science....ld.html Quote "that no student shall be compelled to perform or participate in academic assignments or educational presentations that violate his or her religious beliefs." -------------- Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

OgreMkV Posts: 3668 Joined: Oct. 2009 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 14 2012,21:30    Quote (midwifetoad @ Aug. 14 2012,18:44) http://news.sciencemag.org/science....ld.html Quote "that no student shall be compelled to perform or participate in academic assignments or educational presentations that violate his or her religious beliefs." OH that works. I'll create a religion that has math and history as taboo subjects.  It'll cost $10 to join the religion for the year. Each rube... I mean student... I mean supplicant... will receive a booklet of our core religious beliefs and a membership card (to be renewed annually... early August would be a good renewal date). Talk about rich.  Even if we're just talking Kentucky here, that's got to be 2-3 million a year in income.  I'll have the largest church in Kentucky in no time.   Now... to think of a name. -------------- Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims. http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

midwifetoad Posts: 4003 Joined: Mar. 2008 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 14 2012,21:57    One of my high shool friends invented The Immortal SAG. This was in 1962, so he was ahead of his time. He also asserted that the most destructive invention was the flush toilet, which teaches children that unpleasant things can be made to disappear with the push of a button. I lost track of him, but I understand he became a new age mimister with his own denomination. -------------- Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

Cubist Posts: 558 Joined: Oct. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 14 2012,21:59    Quote (OgreMkV @ Aug. 14 2012,21:30) Quote (midwifetoad @ Aug. 14 2012,18:44) http://news.sciencemag.org/science....ld.html   Quote "that no student shall be compelled to perform or participate in academic assignments or educational presentations that violate his or her religious beliefs." OH that works. I'll create a religion that has math and history as taboo subjects.  It'll cost $10 to join the religion for the year. Each rube... I mean student... I mean supplicant... will receive a booklet of our core religious beliefs and a membership card (to be renewed annually... early August would be a good renewal date). Talk about rich.  Even if we're just talking Kentucky here, that's got to be 2-3 million a year in income.  I'll have the largest church in Kentucky in no time.   Now... to think of a name. Obvious: Call it "the Church of Our Omniscient Lord". You, too, can be too COOL for school! The Church's primary tenet is that God knows everything, and encoded all of it into the Bible. I mean, it's the Word Of God, right? So if it ain't in the Bible, it's just plain false, by definition. COOL students can therefore get out of any class whose subject matter contradicts the Truth that is in the Bible.

OgreMkV Posts: 3668 Joined: Oct. 2009 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 14 2012,22:11    Quote (Cubist @ Aug. 14 2012,21:59) Quote (OgreMkV @ Aug. 14 2012,21:30)   Quote (midwifetoad @ Aug. 14 2012,18:44) http://news.sciencemag.org/science....ld.html     Quote "that no student shall be compelled to perform or participate in academic assignments or educational presentations that violate his or her religious beliefs." OH that works. I'll create a religion that has math and history as taboo subjects.  It'll cost $10 to join the religion for the year. Each rube... I mean student... I mean supplicant... will receive a booklet of our core religious beliefs and a membership card (to be renewed annually... early August would be a good renewal date). Talk about rich.  Even if we're just talking Kentucky here, that's got to be 2-3 million a year in income.  I'll have the largest church in Kentucky in no time.   Now... to think of a name. Obvious: Call it "the Church of Our Omniscient Lord". You, too, can be too COOL for school! The Church's primary tenet is that God knows everything, and encoded all of it into the Bible. I mean, it's the Word Of God, right? So if it ain't in the Bible, it's just plain false, by definition. COOL students can therefore get out of any class whose subject matter contradicts the Truth that is in the Bible. Oh.  I like it.  What to be one our itinerant preachers? -------------- Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims. http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

Henry J Posts: 5786 Joined: Mar. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 14 2012,22:23    Quote (midwifetoad @ Aug. 14 2012,17:44) http://news.sciencemag.org/science....ld.html Quote "that no student shall be compelled to perform or participate in academic assignments or educational presentations that violate his or her religious beliefs." But what if the assignment is a critical part of a required course? Does this law require that the teacher fudge that student's grade in that case? Henry

rhmc Posts: 340 Joined: Dec. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 17 2012,06:39    Quote (Henry J @ Aug. 14 2012,23:23) But what if the assignment is a critical part of a required course? Does this law require that the teacher fudge that student's grade in that case? Henry since each student's righteousness is different, clearly the instructor will need to pray for guidance in grading.

Schroedinger's Dog Posts: 1692 Joined: Jan. 2009 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 17 2012,08:53    Quote (rhmc @ Aug. 17 2012,13:39) Quote (Henry J @ Aug. 14 2012,23:23) But what if the assignment is a critical part of a required course? Does this law require that the teacher fudge that student's grade in that case? Henry since each student's righteousness is different, clearly the instructor will need to pray for guidance in grading. Seems legit... -------------- "Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G "I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis "The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

OgreMkV Posts: 3668 Joined: Oct. 2009 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 17 2012,10:30    Can anyone explain 'bootstrapping' in relation to genetic analysis software and/or link to an explanation? -------------- Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims. http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

Erasmus, FCD Posts: 6349 Joined: June 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 17 2012,17:14    what do you not like about the wiki? surely you are not trying to get someone [who does not understand sampling] to understand resampling? -------------- You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

OgreMkV Posts: 3668 Joined: Oct. 2009 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 17 2012,20:16    Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ Aug. 17 2012,17:14) what do you not like about the wiki? surely you are not trying to get someone [who does not understand sampling] to understand resampling? oh... Yeah, I knew that. Look a zeppelin! -------------- Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims. http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

Bob O'H Posts: 2564 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 18 2012,03:47    Quote (OgreMkV @ Aug. 17 2012,10:30) Can anyone explain 'bootstrapping' in relation to genetic analysis software and/or link to an explanation? Do you mean bootstrapping to estimate standard errors? -------------- It is fun to dip into the various threads to watch cluelessness at work in the hands of the confident exponent. - Soapy Sam (so say we all)

OgreMkV Posts: 3668 Joined: Oct. 2009 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 18 2012,08:18    Quote (Bob O'H @ Aug. 18 2012,03:47) Quote (OgreMkV @ Aug. 17 2012,10:30) Can anyone explain 'bootstrapping' in relation to genetic analysis software and/or link to an explanation? Do you mean bootstrapping to estimate standard errors? Patterns of molecular genetic variation among catbreeds Fig 3 shows a tree and has this quote "Phylogenetic neighbor-joining tree of individuals from 38 catbreeds based on distance matrices generated from proportion of shared alleles algorithm (Dps) from composite genotypes. Bootstrap support for branches supported in more than 60% of 100 replicates is indicated. " So, I'm thinking that means something like: through multiple runs of the analysis, these branches were the same in 60% or more of the runs. That about right? -------------- Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims. http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

Erasmus, FCD Posts: 6349 Joined: June 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 18 2012,20:00    yeah but the there is only one correct neighbor joining tree for a dataset so i am not sure what they are resampling to get the bootstrap values for the node. maybe they are taking one sample out of the 1040 and calculating a new neighbor joining tree from the reduced distance matrix and doing that 100 times.  but why not do it  for all the 1040 samples ask joe felsenstein, he wrote the damn book, literally -------------- You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

Erasmus, FCD Posts: 6349 Joined: June 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 18 2012,20:02    Quote (OgreMkV @ Aug. 17 2012,21:16) Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Aug. 17 2012,17:14) what do you not like about the wiki? surely you are not trying to get someone [who does not understand sampling] to understand resampling? oh... Yeah, I knew that. Look a zeppelin! this is joe tard's face when you explain phylogenies -------------- You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

OgreMkV Posts: 3668 Joined: Oct. 2009 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 18 2012,21:01    Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ Aug. 18 2012,20:00) yeah but the there is only one correct neighbor joining tree for a dataset so i am not sure what they are resampling to get the bootstrap values for the node. maybe they are taking one sample out of the 1040 and calculating a new neighbor joining tree from the reduced distance matrix and doing that 100 times.  but why not do it  for all the 1040 samples ask joe felsenstein, he wrote the damn book, literally Could it be from them testing multiple gene sequences? So if they compared sequence A from all 1040 animals, they got one tree.  Then they did sequence B and got another tree. Then they compared all the trees to determine the 'best fit'? -------------- Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims. http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

dvunkannon Posts: 1377 Joined: June 2008 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 20 2012,08:58    For the Kirk Cameron lovers in the audience, some links. http://kirkcameron.com/2012.......on-mars http://creationrevolution.com/2012.......on-mars The first site only has the first few paragraphs, then links to the second site. Very similar to the DeNews O'Bleary linkfarm. Both sites allow comments, and while most commenters support Kirk and creationism there are a few reality based comments as well. Some real gems (GEMs?) of tard there -   Quote Ken • an hour ago ? Nothing lives over 2-4 minutes without oxygen! There went evolution in the first two minutes. It took billions of years to evolve lungs! HA HA HA HA Quote SJvet • 35 minutes ago • parent ? Evolutionists are the ones who are grossly ill informed. There is not one spec of evidence of one form of life changing into another - not one! It's not even logical that a monkey would give birth to a human and that newly-formed monkey would suddenly start praying to God. If life evolved, other species wouldn't have remained behind. Edited by dvunkannon on Aug. 20 2012,10:04 -------------- I’m referring to evolution, not changes in allele frequencies. - Cornelius Hunter I’m not an evolutionist, I’m a change in allele frequentist! - Nakashima

OgreMkV Posts: 3668 Joined: Oct. 2009 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 20 2012,09:12    Quote (dvunkannon @ Aug. 20 2012,08:58) For the Kirk Cameron lovers in the audience, some links. http://kirkcameron.com/2012.......on-mars http://creationrevolution.com/2012.......on-mars The first site only has the first few paragraphs, then links to the second site. Very similar to the DeNews O'Bleary linkfarm. Both sites allow comments, and while most commenters support Kirk and creationism there are a few reality based comments as well. Some real gems (GEMs?) of tard there -   Quote Ken • an hour ago ? Nothing lives over 2-4 minutes without oxygen! There went evolution in the first two minutes. It took billions of years to evolve lungs! HA HA HA HA Quote SJvet • 35 minutes ago • parent ? Evolutionists are the ones who are grossly ill informed. There is not one spec of evidence of one form of life changing into another - not one! It's not even logical that a monkey would give birth to a human and that newly-formed monkey would suddenly start praying to God. If life evolved, other species wouldn't have remained behind. The sad part is that these people probably considered themselves educated. That was very depressing. -------------- Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims. http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

Schroedinger's Dog Posts: 1692 Joined: Jan. 2009 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 20 2012,09:46    I may have to give up the fight, because some people on "our side" look to be at least as dogmatic as these guys. At least, ours do not seem to be trying to impose their views in schools and government yet. Yet... -------------- "Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G "I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis "The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

OgreMkV Posts: 3668 Joined: Oct. 2009 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 20 2012,09:51    Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Aug. 20 2012,09:46) I may have to give up the fight, because some people on "our side" look to be at least as dogmatic as these guys. At least, ours do not seem to be trying to impose their views in schools and government yet. Yet... You noticed it too?  Glad it's not just me. -------------- Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims. http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

Schroedinger's Dog Posts: 1692 Joined: Jan. 2009 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 20 2012,10:34    Quote (OgreMkV @ Aug. 20 2012,16:51) Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Aug. 20 2012,09:46) I may have to give up the fight, because some people on "our side" look to be at least as dogmatic as these guys. At least, ours do not seem to be trying to impose their views in schools and government yet. Yet... You noticed it too?  Glad it's not just me. Definitely not just you, a good majority too. Atheism is atheism is atheism. First, let's have atheists accepted as equal citizens (well, in the US, here it's already done), then maybe move on to other specifics. A+? -------------- "Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G "I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis "The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

OgreMkV Posts: 3668 Joined: Oct. 2009 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 20 2012,10:42    Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Aug. 20 2012,10:34) Quote (OgreMkV @ Aug. 20 2012,16:51) Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Aug. 20 2012,09:46) I may have to give up the fight, because some people on "our side" look to be at least as dogmatic as these guys. At least, ours do not seem to be trying to impose their views in schools and government yet. Yet... You noticed it too?  Glad it's not just me. Definitely not just you, a good majority too. Atheism is atheism is atheism. First, let's have atheists accepted as equal citizens (well, in the US, here it's already done), then maybe move on to other specifics. A+? The problem that atheism has is the same problem that Christianity has. The vocal supporters appear to be nuts. -------------- Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims. http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

Schroedinger's Dog Posts: 1692 Joined: Jan. 2009 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 20 2012,10:58    Quote (OgreMkV @ Aug. 20 2012,17:42) Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Aug. 20 2012,10:34) Quote (OgreMkV @ Aug. 20 2012,16:51)   Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Aug. 20 2012,09:46) I may have to give up the fight, because some people on "our side" look to be at least as dogmatic as these guys. At least, ours do not seem to be trying to impose their views in schools and government yet. Yet... You noticed it too?  Glad it's not just me. Definitely not just you, a good majority too. Atheism is atheism is atheism. First, let's have atheists accepted as equal citizens (well, in the US, here it's already done), then maybe move on to other specifics. A+? The problem that atheism has is the same problem that Christianity has. The vocal supporters appear to be nuts. Or too vocal compared to what they have to bring to the discussion. Not everyone is a Sagan, a Hitchens, a Dawkins (dare I say a Gould?)... No one rational cares about sex, gender, sex-gender (or all that other unimportant stuff when it comes to discussions). Arguments are what counts. Evidence, proof, lalalala... The basics! Sceptisim? Just do it! -------------- "Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G "I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis "The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

Quack Posts: 1961 Joined: May 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 20 2012,13:49    Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Aug. 20 2012,09:46) I may have to give up the fight, because some people on "our side" look to be at least as dogmatic as these guys. At least, ours do not seem to be trying to impose their views in schools and government yet. Yet... Excuse me, can you show me the way to the battleground? -------------- Rocks have no biology.               Robert Byers.

midwifetoad Posts: 4003 Joined: Mar. 2008 (Permalink) Posted: Aug. 20 2012,14:13    Quote The problem that atheism has is the same problem that Christianity has. The vocal supporters appear to be nuts. My brother bounced around from one to another. I think he last landed on fundamentalism. The propensity to extreme positions seems to be an inborn temperament. The content seems to be secondary. I don't understand the need to be 100 percent right. I once had a blue collar job and was nicknamed old more-or-less. -------------- Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

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