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midwifetoad



Posts: 4003
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 04 2010,15:00   

Quote
There never were any winged pigs because there's no place on pigs for the wings to go. This isn't environmental filtering, it's just physiological and developmental mechanics.


I'm glad I'm not a biologist. I'd hate to be part of a tribe too effing stupid to notice that physics and developmental constraints affect the direction of evolution. :angry:

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Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 4003
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 05 2010,06:45   

Interesting site.

Is it new or just new to me?

http://www.scienceclarified.com/

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Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
sledgehammer



Posts: 533
Joined: Sep. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 05 2010,14:34   

Quote (Richardthughes @ Feb. 04 2010,10:11)
This will tripple the mining shifts in Tardistan.

http://www.newscientist.com/article....ll=true

 
Quote
It's a main claim of our book that, when phenotypic traits are endogenously linked, there is no way that selection can distinguish among them: selection for one selects the others, regardless of their effects on fitness.

What crap.
Selection still applies, if only for a group of linked traits.  Think sickle cell anemia and malaria resistance.
A population can still exhibit all varieties and combinations of linked traits in varying degrees, and selection drives the percentages.

Apparently Jerry Fodor is no stranger to UD:
Fodor on NS

ETA: UD linky

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The majority of the stupid is invincible and guaranteed for all time. The terror of their tyranny is alleviated by their lack of consistency. -A. Einstein  (H/T, JAD)
If evolution is true, you could not know that it's true because your brain is nothing but chemicals. ?Think about that. -K. Hovind

  
Kristine



Posts: 3061
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 06 2010,15:23   

Ye gonads, guys, I had no idea that Biological databases were so darned complex! ;) Reading this stuff is like curling up by a warm fire and kitty on your lap with a volume of Chemical Abstracts:
Quote
The phrase biology databases is deliberately vague so as to cover a wide range of data types. There is no good estimate as to the number of databases that are publicly accessible and have some aspect of molecular
biology/genomics in their contents, but it is easily double the number included in the Nucleic Acids database issue. The 2003 issue included approximately 400 titles, so there could easily be 800 to 1,000 databases. While numerous, the databases do cluster based on the type of
data they include, or by some other scheme, such as organization, institution, or species. Various articles about these resources have generated categorizations.

Another resource sorted them into: biological literature, sequences, expression, protein interaction measurements, and metabolic expression (Marcotte and Date 2001). Another variation is: pathway, genome, protein, enzyme, chemical, and literature. Some of the databases have print counterparts; most are purely electronic. There are hybrid databases, combining data from multiple sources. KEGG, the Kyoto Encyclopedia of Genes and Genomes, is an example of such a combination. “KEGG is a suite of databases and associated software, integrating our current knowledge on molecular interaction networks in biological processes, the information about the universe of
genes and proteins, and the information about the universe of chemical compounds and reactions” (http://www.genome.ad.jp/kegg/kegg.html).

Other databases are subsets from the larger databases with local valueadded content. This article focuses on four core database examples: sequence, microarray, protein, and literature databases. The last example needs no explanation for librarians. The sequence databases are the next easiest to explain–they contain DNA sequences and documentation on how thatsequence was created, and often, links to articles and other information related to that sequence. The microarray data come from experiments
looking at the ‘interdependence of genes’ (Hung and Kim 2000). The protein data come from both experiments and computational modeling of protein sequences and their structures.

Got all that? Okay, what kills me (and I attended a workshop on this last July at ALA, and almost had my mind stretched beyond the point of snapping back) is the fact that biologists don't search the literature necessarily - they search the abstracts and citations. It's called data mining, and there is such a thing as a data (or database) curator.
Quote
With many large sequence datasets completed, the research has moved to the next phase. As touched on in the introduction, this sequence of effort is unusual in the life sciences world of hypothesis-driven experiments. In the classical experiment-based process, a scientist generates a hypothesis, devises an experiment, collects data, and analyses those data in order to determine, with some level of statistical confidence, whether the null hypothesis can be rejected. Then one more bit of knowledge enters the discipline. But much of the current data collection runs independent of any experiment driven by any hypothesis. The analysis of these data is referred to as in silico biology, or hypothesis free. The former term is considerably less assumptive than the latter. The goal is, as it has always been, to extract significance from the data: an action, a function, a role in a pathway. But the approach must differ from classical methods simply because there is so much data. The only way to extract any sense from them is to apply highly computational approaches.

(Chiang, Katherine S.(2004) 'Biology Databases for the New Life Sciences', Science & Technology
Libraries, 25: 1, 139 — 170) Yes, I am reading this article for my class (Reference Sources in the Sciences).

I think I need to see these search algorithms in action before I completely get it.

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Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
fnxtr



Posts: 3504
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 06 2010,19:10   

Quote (Kristine @ Feb. 06 2010,13:23)
 
Quote
(snip) ... of any experiment driven by any hypothesis. The analysis of these data is referred to as in silico biology, or hypothesis free. The former term is considerably less assumptive than the latter. The goal is, as it has always been, to extract significance from the data: an action, a function, a role in a pathway. But the approach must differ from classical methods simply because there is so much data. The only way to extract any sense from them is to apply highly computational approaches.

(Chiang, Katherine S.(2004) 'Biology Databases for the New Life Sciences', Science & Technology
Libraries, 25: 1, 139 — 170) Yes, I am reading this article for my class (Reference Sources in the Sciences).

I think I need to see these search algorithms in action before I completely get it.

Erm, yeah. Don't you need some kind of hypothesis on which to base your search algorithms in the first place?

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"[A] book said there were 5 trillion witnesses. Who am I supposed to believe, 5 trillion witnesses or you? That shit's, like, ironclad. " -- stevestory

"Wow, you must be retarded. I said that CO2 does not trap heat. If it did then it would not cool down at night."  Joe G

  
Kristine



Posts: 3061
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 08 2010,12:50   

Quote (fnxtr @ Feb. 06 2010,19:10)
         
Quote (Kristine @ Feb. 06 2010,13:23)
           
Quote
(snip) ... of any experiment driven by any hypothesis. The analysis of these data is referred to as in silico biology, or hypothesis free. The former term is considerably less assumptive than the latter. The goal is, as it has always been, to extract significance from the data: an action, a function, a role in a pathway. But the approach must differ from classical methods simply because there is so much data. The only way to extract any sense from them is to apply highly computational approaches.

(Chiang, Katherine S.(2004) 'Biology Databases for the New Life Sciences', Science & Technology
Libraries, 25: 1, 139 — 170) Yes, I am reading this article for my class (Reference Sources in the Sciences).

I think I need to see these search algorithms in action before I completely get it.

Erm, yeah. Don't you need some kind of hypothesis on which to base your search algorithms in the first place?

Yes, and therein lies the rub.
         
Quote
Current activities are in a chaotic phase. The ability of researchers to collect data outstrips the availability of techniques to analyze them. Bioinformatics researchers looking at the citation literature, at sequences, and at gene expression are trying to reduce the amount of data in an intelligent way so as to bubble up ‘interesting data’ that can then drive experiments. Researchers are trying to create high-level overviews of the data, “ideally in ways that impart additional information about its structure” (Slonim 2002). Several examples of this dry work of computational in silico data mining have been presented. The results of those efforts are intended to focus the subsequent work of the wet laboratory experiments. Bioinformaticians are inventing techniques for data analysis. Theyare creating so many approaches to data analysis that the scene is reminiscentof the Wild West. There are multiple approaches to the same goals. The literature is full of articles describing new and better algorithmsfor data mining. Authors rarely cite anything outside of the field, and sometimes cite comparable approaches, even though much of the analysis (at least superficially) has parallels to data analysis in other domains.

Most likely, a settling period will follow just as sequence comparisons have settled around some quasi-standard tools such as BLAST. Meanwhile, authors jostle and engage in subtle salesmanship for their approach. In the proof-of-concept papers, phrases such as ‘the advantage of,’ ‘a novel computational method,’ and ‘unlike other literature-based tools, the work we present here’ appear...

All of the articles introducing techniques acknowledge the need for validation. In some cases, each approach is validated by comparing it against known results. For example, if it is an automated annotation technique, the researcher will strip the known annotations out of a
dataset. They use their algorithm to create a set of annotations, then compare the results to the original annotations. In other cases, researchers are relying on the collective evaluative power of their colleagues. One article simply says: “Such links must be validated by the international research community” (Dicks 2000). Phrases like ‘we rely on the fact,’ ‘the method is based on the assumption,’ ‘our primary assumptions’ still abound in this world.

As bioinformatics approaches proliferate and the field matures, the question of validity will be answered in some form or another... Parallel assessments of the validity of thecurrent crop of algorithmic approaches will need to be developed and applied in the -omics (genomics, proteomics, bibliomics) world. Questions such as the following need to be asked.

Compared to other approaches making the same claim, what is the quality of a particular data clustering or mining approach? Does the approach even do what it claims to do? Does the algorithm in the approach incorporate the theory adequately? Is the algorithm valid for the theory it assumes? Is the theory valid, given the data to which it is being applied? Do the data justify the inference being used on them?

Researchers will develop increasingly sophisticated computational methods that should compensate somewhat for heterogeneous data, and additional calculations for confidence measures are likely to develop as the bioinformatics field matures. But conclusions will still be only as reliable as the weakest data. Perhaps, eventually, certain clustering will ‘win’ and become the de facto standard manipulation for a particular function. Over time, that algorithm could be incorporated into the commonly used software and become invisible to users. At a simplistic level, the concept of a mean in linear statistics, and how it is calculated, and the embedding of that calculation into spreadsheet and statistical software packages is an example of this transition. It could be envisioned as an in silica recapitulation of evolutionary survival–the survival of the most efficient, most predictive/productive algorithmic approach.

Whew! Sorry for the long quotes. (I'm the one who had to read the whole shebang for a class!;)

It's a big, wonderful, strange in silico world out there. I wonder if successful algorithms could be considered selection, with the literature as phenotype?

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Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
fnxtr



Posts: 3504
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 08 2010,14:13   

That was a bender, all right.

Those algorithms most suited to their environment will prevail...

(Wayne Campbell)H'yeah, right.(/Wayne Campbell)

That's how we got VHS. And Windows.

It might be more like sexual selection: the best advertiser will win.

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"[A] book said there were 5 trillion witnesses. Who am I supposed to believe, 5 trillion witnesses or you? That shit's, like, ironclad. " -- stevestory

"Wow, you must be retarded. I said that CO2 does not trap heat. If it did then it would not cool down at night."  Joe G

  
Timothy McDougald



Posts: 1036
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 08 2010,20:19   

This is pretty cool:

Quote
"Records of ancient seawater chemistry allow us to unravel past changes in climate, plate tectonics and evolution of life in the oceans. These processes affect ocean chemistry and have shaped our planet over millions of years," said Dr Rosalind Coggon, formerly of NOCS now at Imperial College London.

"Reconstructing past ocean chemistry remains a major challenge for Earth scientists, but small calcium carbonate veins formed from warm seawater when it reacts with basalts from the oceanic crust provide a unique opportunity to develop such records," added co-author Professor Damon Teagle from SOES.


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Church burning ebola boy

FTK: I Didn't answer your questions because it beats the hell out of me.

PaV: I suppose for me to be pried away from what I do to focus long and hard on that particular problem would take, quite honestly, hundreds of thousands of dollars to begin to pique my interest.

   
ppb



Posts: 325
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 10 2010,15:00   

This is my kind of science!  Turns out that beer may be good for building bones.

It is a very good source of dietary silicon.

I knew there was a reason for drinking it.  :)

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"[A scientific theory] describes Nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And it agrees fully with experiment. So I hope you can accept Nature as She is - absurd."
- Richard P. Feynman

  
Quack



Posts: 1961
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 10 2010,15:47   

Quote (ppb @ Feb. 10 2010,15:00)
This is my kind of science!  Turns out that beer may be good for building bones.

It is a very good source of dietary silicon.

I knew there was a reason for drinking it.  :)

So that's the reason my teeth and bones still are so good? But does it have any effect on cartilage?

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Rocks have no biology.
              Robert Byers.

  
Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 10 2010,20:01   

"Beer bad" - Xander Harris.

  
fnxtr



Posts: 3504
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 10 2010,20:27   

Quote (Henry J @ Feb. 10 2010,18:01)
"Beer bad" - Xander Harris.

"Smart women are so hot." -- Ibid.

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"[A] book said there were 5 trillion witnesses. Who am I supposed to believe, 5 trillion witnesses or you? That shit's, like, ironclad. " -- stevestory

"Wow, you must be retarded. I said that CO2 does not trap heat. If it did then it would not cool down at night."  Joe G

  
Schroedinger's Dog



Posts: 1692
Joined: Jan. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 11 2010,07:20   

It's snowing in Nice right now, an event that last occured on this scale more than 10 years ago.

The weather is getting a bit looney, isn't it?

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"Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G

"I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis

"The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

   
Schroedinger's Dog



Posts: 1692
Joined: Jan. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 11 2010,07:34   











All taken from my flat...

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"Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G

"I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis

"The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

   
fnxtr



Posts: 3504
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 11 2010,11:12   

Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Feb. 11 2010,05:34)
(snip)





All taken from my flat...

Meanwhile Vancouver is having to truck in snow in preparation for some of the winter Olympic events. Of all the places in Canada to hold them, IOC chose the warmest.  Genius.

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"[A] book said there were 5 trillion witnesses. Who am I supposed to believe, 5 trillion witnesses or you? That shit's, like, ironclad. " -- stevestory

"Wow, you must be retarded. I said that CO2 does not trap heat. If it did then it would not cool down at night."  Joe G

  
Schroedinger's Dog



Posts: 1692
Joined: Jan. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 11 2010,13:44   

It seems snow has finally fallen on Vancouver and affiliated snow parks...

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"Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G

"I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis

"The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

   
fnxtr



Posts: 3504
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 11 2010,17:56   

VANOC has friends in high places, it would seem.

I keep thinking of that ERV image about bacteria nukleatin' yer snowz.

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"[A] book said there were 5 trillion witnesses. Who am I supposed to believe, 5 trillion witnesses or you? That shit's, like, ironclad. " -- stevestory

"Wow, you must be retarded. I said that CO2 does not trap heat. If it did then it would not cool down at night."  Joe G

  
fnxtr



Posts: 3504
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 11 2010,18:01   

Equivocal.  15cm of new snow but a high of +4 C.

Cypress is historically, and to my memory, the slushiest of the nearby mountains. I guess they outbid Grouse and Seymour. Whistler is wet, too, btw.

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"[A] book said there were 5 trillion witnesses. Who am I supposed to believe, 5 trillion witnesses or you? That shit's, like, ironclad. " -- stevestory

"Wow, you must be retarded. I said that CO2 does not trap heat. If it did then it would not cool down at night."  Joe G

  
dvunkannon



Posts: 1377
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 12 2010,06:53   

Not a science link, but a quick question for y'all -

Is it possible to calculate the time that has passed since the stellar explosion that created the atoms now present in the earth?

As I understand it, some star had to explode in order to cook up the atoms that are above iron in size. These atoms would be floating around for a while in space. Then another nearby explosion would start the process of collapse of the gas cloud, leading to the formation of the sun and our planet.

Radioactive atoms such as uranium must have been decaying into lead the whole time since they were created. Some lead would have been formed directly by the explosion. Is it possible to tease these factors apart and make an estimate (for example) that our atoms are 6 billion years old? At least our heavier atoms anyway. Our hydrogen has probably been around since right after the Big Bang.

All part of a back of the envelope calculation of whether we are among the first intelligent life that has had time to evolve.

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I’m referring to evolution, not changes in allele frequencies. - Cornelius Hunter
I’m not an evolutionist, I’m a change in allele frequentist! - Nakashima

  
dvunkannon



Posts: 1377
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 12 2010,07:00   

Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Feb. 11 2010,08:34)


All taken from my flat...

You have a flat in Nice with an ocean view and haven't invited us all over to crash for several weeks? For shame sir!

--------------
I’m referring to evolution, not changes in allele frequencies. - Cornelius Hunter
I’m not an evolutionist, I’m a change in allele frequentist! - Nakashima

  
fnxtr



Posts: 3504
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 12 2010,10:14   

Quote (dvunkannon @ Feb. 12 2010,04:53)
Not a science link, but a quick question for y'all -

Is it possible to calculate the time that has passed since the stellar explosion that created the atoms now present in the earth?

As I understand it, some star had to explode in order to cook up the atoms that are above iron in size. These atoms would be floating around for a while in space. Then another nearby explosion would start the process of collapse of the gas cloud, leading to the formation of the sun and our planet.

Radioactive atoms such as uranium must have been decaying into lead the whole time since they were created. Some lead would have been formed directly by the explosion. Is it possible to tease these factors apart and make an estimate (for example) that our atoms are 6 billion years old? At least our heavier atoms anyway. Our hydrogen has probably been around since right after the Big Bang.

All part of a back of the envelope calculation of whether we are among the first intelligent life that has had time to evolve.

You mean how long it would take supernova shrapnel to re-coagulate?

There was probably a lot of the stellar equivalent of horizontal gene transfer.  Those remnants blow out at quite a velocity.

Later they mix with the rest of the interstellar medium (always loved that expression), which may or may not end up as a stellar nursery like those cool columns in the Hubble images.

Also, not all stars have the same expected lifetime.  Low mass stars (red and brown dwarves) live billions of years longer than blue giant and supergiant stars. But low mass stars don't go nova anyway. (Ours won't, it'll just get swollen and red and then gradually sort of evaporate into a white dwarf.)

So, IANAA, but my guess on the first question is probably not.  We have no idea how many generations of stars contributed to our current chemistry.

Those "are we alone" and "are we the first" speculations are full of uncertainty on all levels. Cosmologically, there's no reason we'd have to be the first, there's also no reason we couldn't be first.

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"[A] book said there were 5 trillion witnesses. Who am I supposed to believe, 5 trillion witnesses or you? That shit's, like, ironclad. " -- stevestory

"Wow, you must be retarded. I said that CO2 does not trap heat. If it did then it would not cool down at night."  Joe G

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 15 2010,09:46   

ID in action:

http://www.newscientist.com/article....ed.html


(By Humans.)

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"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Peter Henderson



Posts: 298
Joined: Aug. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 15 2010,10:24   

The YECs are quotemining this one for all it's worth:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/02/100209183335.htm

Quote
Science News

Bird-from-Dinosaur Theory of Evolution Challenged: Was It the Other Way Around?
ScienceDaily (Feb. 10, 2010) — A new study just published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences provides yet more evidence that birds did not descend from ground-dwelling theropod dinosaurs, experts say, and continues to challenge decades of accepted theories about the evolution of flight.


A new analysis was done of an unusual fossil specimen discovered in 2003 called "microraptor," in which three-dimensional models were used to study its possible flight potential, and it concluded this small, feathered species must have been a "glider" that came down from trees. The research is well done and consistent with a string of studies in recent years that pose increasing challenge to the birds-from-dinosaurs theory, said John Ruben, a professor of zoology at Oregon State University who authored a commentary in PNAS on the new research.

The weight of the evidence is now suggesting that not only did birds not descend from dinosaurs, Ruben said, but that some species now believed to be dinosaurs may have descended from birds.

"We're finally breaking out of the conventional wisdom of the last 20 years, which insisted that birds evolved from dinosaurs and that the debate is all over and done with," Ruben said. "This issue isn't resolved at all. There are just too many inconsistencies with the idea that birds had dinosaur ancestors, and this newest study adds to that."

Almost 20 years of research at OSU on the morphology of birds and dinosaurs, along with other studies and the newest PNAS research, Ruben said, are actually much more consistent with a different premise -- that birds may have had an ancient common ancestor with dinosaurs, but they evolved separately on their own path, and after millions of years of separate evolution birds also gave rise to the raptors. Small animals such as velociraptor that have generally been thought to be dinosaurs are more likely flightless birds, he said.

"Raptors look quite a bit like dinosaurs but they have much more in common with birds than they do with other theropod dinosaurs such as Tyrannosaurus," Ruben said. "We think the evidence is finally showing that these animals which are usually considered dinosaurs were actually descended from birds, not the other way around."

Another study last year from Florida State University raised similar doubts, Ruben said.

In the newest PNAS study, scientists examined a remarkable fossil specimen that had feathers on all four limbs, somewhat resembling a bi-plane. Glide tests based on its structure concluded it would not have been practical for it to have flown from the ground up, but it could have glided from the trees down, somewhat like a modern-day flying squirrel. Many researchers have long believed that gliders such as this were the ancestors of modern birds.

"This model was not consistent with successful flight from the ground up, and that makes it pretty difficult to make a case for a ground-dwelling theropod dinosaur to have developed wings and flown away," Ruben said. "On the other hand, it would have been quite possible for birds to have evolved and then, at some point, have various species lose their flight capabilities and become ground-dwelling, flightless animals -- the raptors. This may be hugely upsetting to a lot of people, but it makes perfect sense."

In their own research, including one study just last year in the Journal of Morphology, OSU scientists found that the position of the thigh bone and muscles in birds is critical to their ability to have adequate lung capacity for sustained long-distance flight, a fundamental aspect of bird biology. Theropod dinosaurs did not share this feature. Other morphological features have also been identified that are inconsistent with a bird-from-dinosaur theory. And perhaps most significant, birds were already found in the fossil record before the elaboration of the dinosaurs they supposedly descended from. That would be consistent with raptors descending from birds, Ruben said, but not the reverse.

OSU research on avian biology and physiology has been raising questions on this issue since the 1990s, often in isolation. More scientists and other studies are now challenging the same premise, Ruben said. The old theories were popular, had public appeal and "many people saw what they wanted to see" instead of carefully interpreting the data, he said.

"Pesky new fossils...sharply at odds with conventional wisdom never seem to cease popping up," Ruben wrote in his PNAS commentary. "Given the vagaries of the fossil record, current notions of near resolution of many of the most basic questions about long-extinct forms should probably be regarded with caution."


for obvious reasons.

  
dvunkannon



Posts: 1377
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 15 2010,15:51   

Pimp My Ribosome!

Reprogramming the Genetic Code

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I’m referring to evolution, not changes in allele frequencies. - Cornelius Hunter
I’m not an evolutionist, I’m a change in allele frequentist! - Nakashima

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 15 2010,16:08   

Quote (dvunkannon @ Feb. 15 2010,15:51)
Pimp My Ribosome!

Reprogramming the Genetic Code

Oi, Dvk ... two posts above your post, phone-it-in-monkey!

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"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 15 2010,16:41   

I have to ask this: why exactly should anybody be upset by the notion of raptors being descended from avians? Whichever one came first, if one is descended from the other, that's still evolution! (Or evilution, whichever.)

Henry

  
dheddle



Posts: 545
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 15 2010,17:01   

On the topic of entropy--a question.

Do you think only the difference in entropy has physical significance? I've been thinking a great deal about this. The conventional answer is "yes" (I once argued about this Mark Perakh on PT and he dismissed me out of hand—arrogant bastard—I don’t mind being dissed by superstar physicists but not garden-variety physicists—but I digress.)

I’m teaching thermo and have been thinking about this a great deal. Of course, all the equations involving entropy can be cast in terms of the difference in entropy—but that’s not exactly what I am asking. (For example, we can add a constant momentum to everything, and Newton’s 2nd Law still applies, but we don’t go about carefully stating that only changes in momentum are relevant.)

I’m thinking, of course, of the quantum basis for entropy—which unlike the classical basis is not mysterious at all. Every microstate (because of Heisenberg) has a finite volume in phase space, therefore we only have a finite (though typically ginormous) number of microstates for each macrostate. That is certainly a well defined absolute quantity: the number of macrostates. It is a positive definite integer. In order to free ourselves from dealing with enormous numbers—numbers with exponents in the exponents, we shrink ‘em down—and make them additive rather multiplicative by taking the log—and give that quantity the name entropy. Nothing mysterious.

The number of microstates is clearly a well defined quantity—so why not the entropy, which is just a smoothing thereof? We define absolute zero and an absolute temperature scale—as if temperature has some absolute meaning—but in fact all those formulae that demand that you insert an absolute temperature can be recast in terms of  a temperature difference. And entropy is more fundamental than temperature.

Anyway, I think the language is simply a carryover from classical thermodynamics. And I think it is wrong—I think it at least makes a certain sense to say that S=0 when the number of microstates = 1, and that this is not arbitrary in the same sense that the zero of a potential energy is arbitrary.

If Louis cares to chime in he may not use enthalpy. The friggin' chemists and their friggin' enthalpy really piss me off!

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Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
Tony M Nyphot



Posts: 491
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 17 2010,18:24   

I have been personally introduced to an affliction known as Pine Mouth.

Here is an 2001 article from the European Journal of Emergency Medicine.

After eating 2 handfuls of pine nuts last Thursday, I woke up Sunday to find that regardless of what I eat, it all is incredibly bitter.

Between meals, there is no sense of bitterness, but anytime I eat or drink, my mouth is overwhelmed with bitterness...chocolate, cheese, bread, salsa, beer, fruit juice...even brushing my teeth. I can't even enjoy a good glass of port.

While palate-ly horrible, it is a most curious experience from an intellectual stand point.

If anyone knows of more recent information, it would be appreciated. There's nothing like a good spoonful of alum, but I've had enough.

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"I, OTOH, am an underachiever...I either pee my pants or faint dead away..." FTK

"You could always wrap fresh fish in the paper you publish it on, though, and sell that." - Field Man on how to find value in Gary Gaulin's real-science "theory"

  
REC



Posts: 638
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 17 2010,18:38   

I've never heard of pine nuts as taste disturbing.

The best example I can think of is miraculin, a glycoprotein from "miracle fruit' that binds and alters taste receptors.  Everything tastes sweet for hours after exposure.  You can buy the stuff online, or in Asian groceries for kicks.

  
Tony M Nyphot



Posts: 491
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 17 2010,19:03   

Quote (REC @ Feb. 17 2010,17:38)
Everything tastes sweet for hours after exposure.

Only hours? Apparently, I get to experience bitter for up to 2 weeks.

--------------
"I, OTOH, am an underachiever...I either pee my pants or faint dead away..." FTK

"You could always wrap fresh fish in the paper you publish it on, though, and sell that." - Field Man on how to find value in Gary Gaulin's real-science "theory"

  
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