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Antievolution.org Discussion Board > From the Panda's Thumb > After the Bar Closes... > Dover ID bill: $1M

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Jason Spaceman Posts: 163 Joined: Nov. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 21 2006,22:52    Quote By LAURI LEBO and MICHELLE STARR Daily Record/Sunday News Feb 22, 2006 — The Dover Area school board voted Tuesday night to pay $1 million in legal fees to the attorneys that successfully sued the district over its intelligent-design policy. In addition, each of the 11 plaintiffs will also receive $1 in nominal damages. Eight of the nine board members voted in favor while Bryan Rehm, who is also a plaintiff, abstained. The vote somewhat puts an end to one of the district's most contentious chapters, and, as plaintiff Cyndi Sneath said "lets us catch our breath and move on." After board members voted, Beth Eveland, one of the parents who sued the district, told the board that she and other plaintiffs at the meeting considered it a fair offer. However, she said they were dismayed that the taxpayers and children were left with the bill and believed the old board members should be held accountable. The smallest amount of accountability is an apology, she said. "It's the end of the legal drama, but there is no closure," she said. Heather Geesey, the only remaining member from the previous board, said after the meeting that she took offense to Eveland's remarks. "I don't think I have anything to apologize for," she said. Read it here.

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 22 2006,03:37    In a sense, I don't think the former school board has anything to apologize for, if it was representing the will of the voters. If the majority of voters elect a group of retards, why should the retards have to apologize to said voters when they go on do something retarded?

Chris Hyland Posts: 705 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 22 2006,05:15    Your right, but the fact that they were all voted out suggests they were not representing the will of the people very well. I dont think the former board members should have to pay, although ignorance of the law is a crime, ignorance of science isnt, and i believe they were tricked in to adopting this policy. Most of the time though I am against 'elected officials are just acting in the will of the people so the people deserve what they get' arguments, mainly because its the argument used by suicide bombers.

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 22 2006,05:33    Of course when the officials are violating someone's rights with the approval of the public, that can't be tolerated. But  here the public is having to pay money as a consequence of their representatives having done what they elected them to do. The representatives didn't double-cross the people, they did what the people knew they'd do, so they don't owe those people any apology. What they maybe should apologize for, though, is acting in a way that voided their insurance policy. I think even though the voters wanted creationists, and got creationists, they might have expected that even creationists would not have been so irresponsible and stupid as to do that.

Mr_Christopher Posts: 1238 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 22 2006,05:33    Steve I sort of agree with you but think about George Bush.  Should ALL Americans be punished because the majority voted for Bush?  Not everyone in Dover was an IDiot but I suppose that's how democracy works sometimes.  You vote in dorks and eventually you eat dork soup. Anyhow, I want to help the folks in Dover out so I am mailing them a quarter ($.25) to help pay their legal bill. I wonder how much $$ the TMLC is chipping in? -------------- Uncommon Descent is a moral cesspool, a festering intellectual ghetto that intoxicates and degrades its inhabitants - Stephen Matheson

Russell Posts: 1082 Joined: April 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 22 2006,05:43    I don't know if it's different in Dover, but here in Ohio, the level of interest in, and information available about, school board candidates is statistically indistinguishable from zero. Our (here in Columbus, the state capital, most populous city in the state, home campus of the state university) representative to the state board is the rector of parish of a right-wing splinter sect split off from the Episcopal church over such affronts to traditional values as women clergy. If 1% of voters even knew he was a minister or priest at all, I would be very, very surprised. I'd be very surprised it 1% of voters know it even now, after he's one of the leading champions of the "intelligent design" cause for the past four years. Of course, in the most recent election in Dover, the electorate finally was aware, having been whacked over the proverbial head by the proverbial clue-by-four. Maybe next election in Ohio will be different, too. But, as the world learned in 2004, elections in Ohio can be pretty nutty; I'm not optimistic. -------------- Must... not... scratch... mosquito bite.

improvius Posts: 807 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 22 2006,06:10    Quote (Mr_Christopher @ Feb. 22 2006,11:33) I wonder how much $$ the TMLC is chipping in? They should be footing the whole bill.  This never would have gone to trial if Dick Thompson hadn't convinced the school board that it was a good idea.  Dick was looking for a golden ticket to the SCOTUS and thought he found one in Dover.  The TMLC's ability to offer sound legal advice was in conflict with their own agenda. -------------- Quote (afdave @ Oct. 02 2006,18:37) Many Jews were in comfortable oblivion about Hitler ... until it was too late. Many scientists will persist in comfortable oblivion about their Creator ... until it is too late.

Mr_Christopher Posts: 1238 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 22 2006,06:21    Quote (improvius @ Feb. 22 2006,12:10) Quote (Mr_Christopher @ Feb. 22 2006,11:33) I wonder how much $$ the TMLC is chipping in? They should be footing the whole bill.  This never would have gone to trial if Dick Thompson hadn't convinced the school board that it was a good idea.  Dick was looking for a golden ticket to the SCOTUS and thought he found one in Dover.  The TMLC's ability to offer sound legal advice was in conflict with their own agenda. Given the fact that the pretrial evidence and depositions indicated an overwhelming case against the school board's actions makes you wonder if the TMLC has some uncomfortable ethical questions to answer.  Questions they have so far not been asked. I still wonder if the Dover board would have a case against the TMLC for giving them such astonishingly bad legal advice.  Obviously the TMLC was shopping the case to various school boards so their agenda was clear.  They wanted to use a school board as a pawn in their own culture war.  Is that ethical?  I mean given the overwhelming evidence against their cause. And I wonder if the Dover board could sue the former members who lied and did other things to cover their creationist (unconstitutional) tracks? -------------- Uncommon Descent is a moral cesspool, a festering intellectual ghetto that intoxicates and degrades its inhabitants - Stephen Matheson

Flint Posts: 478 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 22 2006,10:35    http://www.odod.state.oh.us/research/files/g701.pdf While Columbus has the largest Ohio population within city limits, Cuyahoga county is comfortably larger, AND surrounded by more populous counties as well. Meanwhile, I'm wondering just what the timeframe is for paying this $1M. For a jurisdiction of only a few thousand people, that's a chunk of money, maybe $100 for every person (of any age). Dover is (naturally) atypically undereducated and underachieving in comparison to the rest of the state.

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 22 2006,10:39    I had to read through a bunch of powerpoint, but I think i finally found, last year, that the school district had a budget of about $15 million.

Mr_Christopher Posts: 1238 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 22 2006,10:51    One of the former board members had suggested they do some bake sales to raise the money. I say why not ask the intelligent designer to chip in. -------------- Uncommon Descent is a moral cesspool, a festering intellectual ghetto that intoxicates and degrades its inhabitants - Stephen Matheson

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: June 22 2008,17:23    Quote In her new book, The Devil in Dover: An Insider's Story of Dogma v. Darwin in Small-Town America, Lebo writes of her journey through a familiar town made alien by a handful of school board members willing to, as Lebo puts it, "lie for Jesus." Lebo closely follows the story of how a handful of fundamentalists, pushing to include the teaching of creationism in school biology courses change their tack when the conservative Christian Thomas More Law Center gets involved. School board members suddenly stop talking about Jesus and creationism, denying statements they made to local reporters, and saying instead they were advocating the teaching of the so-called science of intelligent design. The lies were outright enough to make the presiding judge flush with anger, who subsequently cited the school board's "breathtaking inanity," in his decision against them. (snicker snicker) http://www.alternet.org/mediacu....9f816de

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: June 22 2008,17:43    hahahahaha: Quote I started getting suspicious of the other side, like the Discovery Institute, when I found that they would use really long words that didn't really make much sense to me and when I would say, "I'm not understanding your point," they would use the same long words, only they'd say them faster and louder. They never deviated from the script. I started to get the feeling that they weren't being straight with me. At one point, I know that [senior fellow at the Discovery Institute] Jonathan West said to me, "I don't get it. Other reporters get this. You don't. Why are you so obtuse?" John West SUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCCCCCKKKKKKKKKSSSSSSSSS!

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: June 22 2008,17:53    Quote OR: You actually found TV footage of Buckingham talking about creationism and brought that to the lawyers. Talk about that moment in the courtroom when Buckingham was shown that footage. LL: Mike Argento, a fellow reporter, referred to it as the "Homer Simpson moment" where Bill Buckingham was shown the tape and Steve Harvey was questioning him. The whole time on the stand, Buckingham said, "I never talked about creationism." And then they showed the tape and Steve just kind of turns to Bill, waiting for a response from him. There was just silence, and everybody in the courtroom was waiting. And he says, "Well see, that was because the newspapers kept saying I was talking about creationism even though I wasn't so when the TV camera was thrust in my face, I was concentrating so hard on not saying creationism that I said creationism when I meant to say intelligent design." That's why Argento called it the "Homer Simpson moment": Don't say creationism, don't say creationism. Doh. To this day Bill Buckingham still maintains that that's what happened. It's just amazing to me that somebody can just deny, deny, deny. Maybe he has even convinced himself at this point. I don't know. "I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: "O Lord make my enemies ridiculous." And God granted it. " -Voltaire The Dover trial was the greatest event in the history of the human species. Evar. Edited by stevestory on June 22 2008,18:55

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: June 22 2008,18:00    Quote OR: Throughout the book, the plaintiffs, and particularly the lawyers, try to wrap their minds around the lying that goes on. At on point, you write that (plaintiffs' attorney Eric) Rothschild wondered whether it was possible that Alan Bonsell, among others, had convinced himself that what he was telling the truth. LL: During the whole trial, Alan Bonsell would sit there in the courtroom, wearing this serene smile on his face. He'd spread out his arms and lean back, seeming so assured. Then it's finally his turn to testify. It's pretty obvious at this point that there are some serious issues because Bill Buckingham and others had testified before him and had not been honest. He gets on the stand, and he's chewing gum. He turned to the judge, and said, "What the court needs to understand." I just remember sitting there and thinking, "Oh no, he didn't. He did not just look a federal judge in the eye and lie and blame the reporters." I think I'm about to pass out from the ecstasy of reading this story.

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: June 22 2008,18:08    I want to marry Laurie Lebo and have 150 babies.

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: June 22 2008,18:14    Quote Meanwhile, as Judge Jones was reading the documents that showed Bonsell had lied, his face was getting redder and redder. Alan seemed like this blissful gazelle, drinking at the water while the lion is stalking him across the savanna. Oh man. This is the greatest thing of all time. Everybody is hereby invited to the party I'm hosting in December on the upcoming 3rd anniversary of Jones's decision.

Lou FCD Posts: 5455 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: June 22 2008,18:15    Quote (stevestory @ June 22 2008,19:08) I want to marry Laurie Lebo and have 150 babies. :D I think you'd look lovely in maternity clothes. -------------- “Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas? Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: June 22 2008,18:16    I feel like a boxing fan, endlessly rewinding the VHS tape where the opponent's head actually separates from his shoulders.

Lou FCD Posts: 5455 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: June 22 2008,18:19    Quote (stevestory @ June 22 2008,18:53) Quote OR: You actually found TV footage of Buckingham talking about creationism and brought that to the lawyers. Talk about that moment in the courtroom when Buckingham was shown that footage. LL: Mike Argento, a fellow reporter, referred to it as the "Homer Simpson moment" where Bill Buckingham was shown the tape and Steve Harvey was questioning him. The whole time on the stand, Buckingham said, "I never talked about creationism." And then they showed the tape and Steve just kind of turns to Bill, waiting for a response from him. There was just silence, and everybody in the courtroom was waiting. And he says, "Well see, that was because the newspapers kept saying I was talking about creationism even though I wasn't so when the TV camera was thrust in my face, I was concentrating so hard on not saying creationism that I said creationism when I meant to say intelligent design." That's why Argento called it the "Homer Simpson moment": Don't say creationism, don't say creationism. Doh. To this day Bill Buckingham still maintains that that's what happened. It's just amazing to me that somebody can just deny, deny, deny. Maybe he has even convinced himself at this point. I don't know. "I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: "O Lord make my enemies ridiculous." And God granted it. " -Voltaire The Dover trial was the greatest event in the history of the human species. Evar. That interview can be found here, on YouTube Channel UDoJ, for anyone interested in seeing the "Homer Simpson Moment" for themselves. ETA: My remix Edited by Lou FCD on June 22 2008,19:21 -------------- “Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas? Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: June 22 2008,18:19    Quote (Lou FCD @ June 22 2008,19:15) Quote (stevestory @ June 22 2008,19:08) I want to marry Laurie Lebo and have 150 babies. :D I think you'd look lovely in maternity clothes. Dude, you're definitely coming. December 20. We are going to get wrecked.

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: June 22 2008,18:20    We'll be Bouncing off of clouds

Lou FCD Posts: 5455 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: June 22 2008,18:21    Quote (stevestory @ June 22 2008,19:19) Quote (Lou FCD @ June 22 2008,19:15) Quote (stevestory @ June 22 2008,19:08) I want to marry Laurie Lebo and have 150 babies. :D I think you'd look lovely in maternity clothes. Dude, you're definitely coming. December 20. We are going to get wrecked. Dude, no matter what else I do this year, I'll be there with bells on. Nothing else, just bells. -------------- “Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas? Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: June 22 2008,18:26    Quote I was stunned. Judge (John E.) Jones never changed his facial expression, but he did hold (Bonsell's) gaze. When Steve Harvey had finished cross-examining him, it was really obvious that Bonsell had lied in his depositions, and that's when Judge Jones asked to see the depositions and compare it to others. Bonsell seemed like he was the only person in the courtroom who was unaware of the seriousness of what was happening. He continued to rock in his chair back and forth and was still chewing his gum. Everybody else was looking around the courtroom at each other like, what is going on here? I was looking over at the plaintiffs' attorneys, wondering, Is this normal? Does this happen? Meanwhile, as Judge Jones was reading the documents that showed Bonsell had lied, his face was getting redder and redder. Alan seemed like this blissful gazelle, drinking at the water while the lion is stalking him across the savanna. I find myself wincing

Lou FCD Posts: 5455 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: June 22 2008,18:31    "Blissfully ignorant" seems appropriate on many levels... -------------- “Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas? Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: June 22 2008,18:35    I think I'll invite Judge Jones to the 3rd Annual Drinktastic Dover Drinkoff, but his judicial impartiality might require him to decline.

Lou FCD Posts: 5455 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: June 22 2008,18:44    What if he wears a disguise?  I'd kick in for that. -------------- “Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas? Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: June 22 2008,18:48    Quote (Lou FCD @ June 22 2008,19:44) What if he wears a disguise?  I'd kick in for that. LOL. We might have to buy him a fake moustache.

Lou FCD Posts: 5455 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: June 22 2008,18:54    Quote (stevestory @ June 22 2008,19:48)   Quote (Lou FCD @ June 22 2008,19:44) What if he wears a disguise?  I'd kick in for that. LOL. We might have to buy him a fake moustache. Steve's party, featuring a very drunk judge cowboy:   Quote Valleyschwag Hoedown, by Laughing Squid -------------- “Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas? Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

Dr.GH Posts: 2333 Joined: May 2002 (Permalink) Posted: June 22 2008,21:19    The right-wing are very big about "taking responsibility." Unless it is their fuck-up. Then it is somebody else that should take the hit. -------------- "Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy." L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

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