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skeptic



Posts: 1163
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 10 2008,18:56   

and this is what I would call higher level semantics.  If mutations are a result of causes then these causes are not occuring in a vaccum.  They are occuring within the environment that the organism lives.  In other words, mutations occur as a result of the enironment and actions of the organism.  Whether or not the mutation has a direct impact upon the fitness of future generations or has more indirect result is probably up for grabs and maybe both depending upon the situation.  To constantly claim that mutations occur with no apparent relation to fitness is only reality in a test tube, and probably not even there either.

again, my opinion but not something that gets alot of play here because the perceived implications are too scary.

  
silverspoon



Posts: 123
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 10 2008,19:28   

The environment can cause mutations is somehow perceived as scary?

I don’t understand.

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Grand Poobah of the nuclear mafia

  
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 10 2008,19:30   

Quote (skeptic @ Jan. 10 2008,19:56)
again, my opinion but not something that gets alot of play here because the perceived implications are too scary.

Sorry, Skept. That particular notion doesn't get much play here because it is mistaken, plain and simple. The causal chains that (in principle) determine a mutation take no note of the positive, neutral, or negative impact of that mutation on the future reproductive success of individual organisms destined to inherit it. Unless you are going to argue that, among other problems with his notion, causality passes from the future to the past.

[edit] Moved a u from one side of an s to the other.

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
swbarnes2



Posts: 78
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 10 2008,19:40   

Quote (skeptic @ Jan. 10 2008,18:56)
In other words, mutations occur as a result of the enironment and actions of the organism.


Only in the most indirect manner...that is, an organism that live next to mutagens will get lots of mutations.

But an organism that, say, lives next to an antibiotic is no more likely to randomly develop a mutation that would grant resistance than an organism than doesn't.

Mutations happen because the laws of chemistry allow mutations to happen.  That's really the strongest statement you can make about them.

 
Quote
To constantly claim that mutations occur with no apparent relation to fitness is only reality in a test tube, and probably not even there either.


Okay, then why don't you show us the peer-reviewed paper which demonstrates that you are right, and everyone else is wrong.

Making up how you think the world works without evidence is singularly unconvincing.  Don't you know that by now?

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 10 2008,19:51   

Skeptic, no one is saying that mutations don't have fitness effects, nor that some mutations are not more likely due to causal scenarios already in place (laws of chemistry, etc).  See codon bias, for instance.

The point is that mutations (and their effects) are not determined according to perceived needs of the organism.

As SWB said, hanging out next to an antibiotic doesn't increase your chances of picking up a mutation coding for some form of resistance***.  The point that no known analysis has shown direction for mutations is worth noting (and also the dagger in the heart of Daniel Smith's nonsense resurrecting the rotting corpse of Broom and Schindewolf).

***  Of course this does not deal with the probability of a population becoming fixed for such a mutation, which would be related to the proximity to such a selection pressure.

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Nerull



Posts: 317
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 10 2008,21:00   

Quote (skeptic @ Jan. 10 2008,19:56)
and this is what I would call higher level semantics.  If mutations are a result of causes then these causes are not occuring in a vaccum.  They are occuring within the environment that the organism lives.  In other words, mutations occur as a result of the enironment and actions of the organism.  Whether or not the mutation has a direct impact upon the fitness of future generations or has more indirect result is probably up for grabs and maybe both depending upon the situation.  To constantly claim that mutations occur with no apparent relation to fitness is only reality in a test tube, and probably not even there either.

again, my opinion but not something that gets alot of play here because the perceived implications are too scary.

This is quite possibly the silliest thing I've ever heard you say.

That mutations are caused by the environment does not mean that mutations are related to the environment.

Taking a bath in radioactive waste will do wonders for your mutation rate, but it has absolutely no effect on what the mutations *do*, and it won't make the result of any mutation more likely than the result of a mutation caused by any other environment.

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To rebut creationism you pretty much have to be a biologist, chemist, geologist, philosopher, lawyer and historian all rolled into one. While to advocate creationism, you just have to be an idiot. -- tommorris

   
skeptic



Posts: 1163
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 10 2008,22:04   

And that is quite possibly the silliest thing I have ever heard...mutations caused by the environment are not related to the environment!

Look, I'm not really interested in getting into this too deep because you guys really aren't interested in discussing it.  If you want to do some more research on your on check out heat shock proteins and chaperones and the AMES test and then think about how quickly environmental changes occur in relation to mutation rates.

The reason why this is scary is because, to be perfectly honest, the current theory has no good mechanistic explanations for evolution and no one wants to admit that.  Evolution is no longer science it is dogma because of the perceived threat from ID/creationism.  Under current conditions there can be no dissent because that would offer a weakness to the enemy and right now defeating the enemy is more important than scientific integrity.  This, of course, will change when enough evidence is amassed to offer a more complete mechanism to replace RM seamlessly and the enemy then will have no weakness to exploit.  In other words, right now it is about politics but one day it will actually be about science again.

  
Nerull



Posts: 317
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 10 2008,22:42   

Quote (skeptic @ Jan. 10 2008,23:04)
And that is quite possibly the silliest thing I have ever heard...mutations caused by the environment are not related to the environment!

Look, I'm not really interested in getting into this too deep because you guys really aren't interested in discussing it.  If you want to do some more research on your on check out heat shock proteins and chaperones and the AMES test and then think about how quickly environmental changes occur in relation to mutation rates.

The reason why this is scary is because, to be perfectly honest, the current theory has no good mechanistic explanations for evolution and no one wants to admit that.  Evolution is no longer science it is dogma because of the perceived threat from ID/creationism.  Under current conditions there can be no dissent because that would offer a weakness to the enemy and right now defeating the enemy is more important than scientific integrity.  This, of course, will change when enough evidence is amassed to offer a more complete mechanism to replace RM seamlessly and the enemy then will have no weakness to exploit.  In other words, right now it is about politics but one day it will actually be about science again.

Someone here certainly isn't interested in discussing anything, but its not us.

Keep feeding your martyr complex and denying reality, though.

--------------
To rebut creationism you pretty much have to be a biologist, chemist, geologist, philosopher, lawyer and historian all rolled into one. While to advocate creationism, you just have to be an idiot. -- tommorris

   
Henry J



Posts: 5786
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(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 10 2008,22:43   

Quote
The environment can cause mutations is somehow perceived as scary?

I don?t understand.


Certainly the possibility can be scary. Some mutations cause medical problems, after all. Of course, being scary doesn't make a hypothesis inaccurate.

Anyhow, I would think that the fact that mutations occur fairly regularly is in itself evidence of randomness. Planned mutations would seem to me to be more likely to occur in batches when needed, with long stretches in between of nothing much happening in that regard.

Another thing to check would be how evenly the mutations get distributed over the genome, when a large number of reproductive events are checked. Random would mean the events would be spread out over a large portion of the genome, and probably that more or less the same distribution would be observed regardless of what environment the sample population happens to be in. (And as pointed out above, this refers to occurance of the mutation, not its likelihood of spreading across the population once present in the gene pool.) Planned mutations, on the other hand, I would expect to occur at need, and in specific areas of the genome, without lots of irrelevant mutations also occurring all over the place as well.

Henry

  
Coyote



Posts: 21
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 10 2008,22:45   

Quote (skeptic @ Jan. 11 2008,08:04)
...the current theory has no good mechanistic explanations for evolution and no one wants to admit that.  Evolution is no longer science it is dogma because of the perceived threat from ID/creationism.

No mechanism for evolution? Could you explain this to me.

This does not reflect what I learned in grad school.

And, although it was a couple of decades ago, not once do I remember creationism being brought up -- as a perceived threat or otherwise -- and half of my coursework to the Ph.D. level was in fossil man, human osteology, human races, and related subjects.

Creationism simply was not important enough to be even mentioned in serious academic studies when I went to school. (Of course ID had not even been cooked up back then.)

So, for this old timer, please explain the "no mechanism" comment.

  
skeptic



Posts: 1163
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 11 2008,00:43   

Quote
Anyhow, I would think that the fact that mutations occur fairly regularly is in itself evidence of randomness. Planned mutations would seem to me to be more likely to occur in batches when needed, with long stretches in between of nothing much happening in that regard.


Sounds a lot like the fossil record, doesn't it?  

Quote
Another thing to check would be how evenly the mutations get distributed over the genome, when a large number of reproductive events are checked. Random would mean the events would be spread out over a large portion of the genome, and probably that more or less the same distribution would be observed regardless of what environment the sample population happens to be in. (And as pointed out above, this refers to occurance of the mutation, not its likelihood of spreading across the population once present in the gene pool.) Planned mutations, on the other hand, I would expect to occur at need, and in specific areas of the genome, without lots of irrelevant mutations also occurring all over the place as well.


If that were true, but mutations do not occur evenly throughout the genome.  There are areas that are highly conserved and these tend to be highly functional areas also.  This, of course, may be just our perspective since these features show up throughout many different organisms and we just may not know what an alternative looks like.

Coyote, I certainly can not speak to what you were taught but as far as no mechanism give it a thought.  We've always been given RM/NS with no real explanation about how that resolves into complexity.  The fall back was always time but that doesn't necessarily jive with some estimates based upon rates.  Now we have drifts and shifts and maybe evo/devo but none of it is very explanatory beyond a high level assessment.  If you have a valid mechanism, I'd love to hear it because that's what I've been looking for for years.

  
George



Posts: 316
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 11 2008,02:42   

Quote (skeptic @ Jan. 11 2008,00:43)
Quote
Anyhow, I would think that the fact that mutations occur fairly regularly is in itself evidence of randomness. Planned mutations would seem to me to be more likely to occur in batches when needed, with long stretches in between of nothing much happening in that regard.


Sounds a lot like the fossil record, doesn't it?

The fossil record is the result of random mutation and natural selection (and other mechanisms).

You seem to be confusing/conflating the roles of RM and NS in some of the things you say.  RM is neutral as regards fitness.  NS is where the fitness part comes in.  It's a two-stage process.

Your personal disbelief isn't a valid argument against the adequacy of RM+NS (and other mechanisms) to develop biological complexity.  Perhaps you don't fully appreciate how complex the environment is, how many different selection pressures there are, and how they change in relative importance over widely varying time scales.

  
Mr_Christopher



Posts: 1238
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 11 2008,07:54   

Skepti any truth to the rumor that you're writing a book for your fellow creationists called "The Power of Make Believe"?

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Uncommon Descent is a moral cesspool, a festering intellectual ghetto that intoxicates and degrades its inhabitants - Stephen Matheson

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 11 2008,08:26   

Quote (skeptic @ Jan. 10 2008,22:04)
The reason why this is scary is because, to be perfectly honest, the current theory has no good mechanistic explanations for evolution and no one wants to admit that.  Evolution is no longer science it is dogma because of the perceived threat from ID/creationism.  Under current conditions there can be no dissent because that would offer a weakness to the enemy and right now defeating the enemy is more important than scientific integrity.  This, of course, will change when enough evidence is amassed to offer a more complete mechanism to replace RM seamlessly and the enemy then will have no weakness to exploit.  In other words, right now it is about politics but one day it will actually be about science again.

The number of factual and logical errors in this single paragraph is mind-boggling. In all cases the evidence for these assertions is completely lacking. For example, please tell us about your evidence for that conspiracy that is suppressing "dissent" in the scientific community; I failed to get that memo. That one alone is worth 40 points on the crackpot index.

But when an IDist maintains that the problem with evolutionary theory is that it does not provide "good mechanistic explanations", that's downright hilarious.

Thanks for the best laugh I've had all week!

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Darth Robo



Posts: 148
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 11 2008,08:58   

Quote
We've always been given RM/NS with no real explanation about how that resolves into complexity.


What's comlexity?

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"Commentary: How would you like to be the wholly-owned servant to an organic meatbag? It's demeaning! If, uh, you weren't one yourself, I mean..."

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 11 2008,08:59   

Quote (Darth Robo @ Jan. 11 2008,08:58)
Quote
We've always been given RM/NS with no real explanation about how that resolves into complexity.


What's comlexity?

You'll know it when you see it.

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I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
Darth Robo



Posts: 148
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 11 2008,08:59   

Quote
We've always been given RM/NS with no real explanation about how that resolves into complexity.


What's complexity?

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"Commentary: How would you like to be the wholly-owned servant to an organic meatbag? It's demeaning! If, uh, you weren't one yourself, I mean..."

  
Darth Robo



Posts: 148
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 11 2008,09:00   

AAAARGH!!!

Too complex for me to spell, apparently!    :angry:


Can I has edit button?    :(

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"Commentary: How would you like to be the wholly-owned servant to an organic meatbag? It's demeaning! If, uh, you weren't one yourself, I mean..."

  
skeptic



Posts: 1163
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 11 2008,09:01   

you guys are too far behind the curve here.

Alba, I don't support ID, never have, and I've made multiple statements indicating that.  Sorry, I don't fit in that box.

George, would you mind providing me some evidence that indicates the fossil record is a result of RM/NS?

  
Mr_Christopher



Posts: 1238
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 11 2008,09:09   

Quote (skeptic @ Jan. 11 2008,09:01)
you guys are too far behind the curve here.

Alba, I don't support ID, never have, and I've made multiple statements indicating that.  Sorry, I don't fit in that box.

George, would you mind providing me some evidence that indicates the fossil record is a result of RM/NS?

Skepti, you're a creationist who lives in a make believe world.  Claiming you're not an IDists does not get you off the hook. :-)  You fit perfectly in the kook/crank box.


Chris

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Uncommon Descent is a moral cesspool, a festering intellectual ghetto that intoxicates and degrades its inhabitants - Stephen Matheson

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 11 2008,09:23   

Quote (skeptic @ Jan. 11 2008,09:01)
you guys are too far behind the curve here.

Alba, I don't support ID, never have, and I've made multiple statements indicating that.  Sorry, I don't fit in that box.

Well, then, give me your "good mechanistic explanations" for the diversity of life that derive logically from whatever box you do find yourself in these days.

thanks

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Nerull



Posts: 317
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 11 2008,10:37   

Quote (skeptic @ Jan. 10 2008,23:04)
And that is quite possibly the silliest thing I have ever heard...mutations caused by the environment are not related to the environment!

I want you to answer something for me, Skeptic.

A bit of ionizing radiation from said bath comes in and nails the DNA of a developing organism.

Where in the DNA this happens is entirely random.

Now explain how the mutation will somehow relate to the environment it happened in.


Also, a stable area of DNA doesn't mean no mutations happen there, but that no mutations have become widespread and passed on to future generations. This could be due to the fact that most mutations to that area are deadly - for example if it produces a protein that said organism has become dependent on. Break the protein and the organism dies. This tends to prevent the mutation being passed on to the next generation. This is what we called "natural selection.", and its a rather important bit of evolution that you seem to ignore.

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To rebut creationism you pretty much have to be a biologist, chemist, geologist, philosopher, lawyer and historian all rolled into one. While to advocate creationism, you just have to be an idiot. -- tommorris

   
EoRaptor013



Posts: 45
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 11 2008,13:19   

Seems there are a couple of discussion disjuncts here. First, the "fossil record" is NOT created by RM+NS. It's the consequence of chance preservation, chance revelation of the strata and location of the fossil, and perhaps somewhat guided discovery. However, when George says the fossil record results from RM/ NS, I understand him to be using shorthand for the fact that the fossilized thing is proof of a living thing that was, itself, wholly the product of RM/NS.

Second, to say there are highly conserved genes, says absolutely nothing about mutation rates or causes. That bit of ionizing radiation nerull mentions is as likely to zap a highly conserved region of an individual cell's genome as it is any other region of that genome. Highly conserved means when that cell divides -- or, if its a germ cell, when it combines with another -- the result is unlikely to be viable -- even if the change is relatively minor.

So, I'm sorry, but you sitll don't have a pot to piss in.

$0.02

  
C.J.O'Brien



Posts: 395
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 11 2008,14:32   

Quote
Whether or not the mutation has a direct impact upon the fitness of future generations or has more indirect result is probably up for grabs and maybe both depending upon the situation.  To constantly claim that mutations occur with no apparent relation to fitness is only reality in a test tube, and probably not even there either.

Well skeppy, there are many more ways to miss a point than to get it, and, in this case, you seem determined to try out every last one.
No one is asserting that "mutation[s have no] direct impact on...fitness..." What we are saying, in small words whenever possible, is that the occurance of a mutation happens without regard to fitness. That is, nobody has succeeded in bringing light to a mechanism whereby "directed mutation" or "frontloading" would be a live possibility. As far as any investigator can tell, mutations just happen, willy-nilly, and pass into the great filter of natural selection. Conserved regions are regions where mutations do not get passed on, not regions where they never occur in the first place. This is clearly on the selection side of things.

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The is the beauty of being me- anything that any man does I can understand.
--Joe G

  
swbarnes2



Posts: 78
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 11 2008,15:19   

Quote (skeptic @ Jan. 11 2008,00:43)
Sounds a lot like the fossil record, doesn't it?  


Sigh.

The fossil record is the result of Natural selection acting on mutations.

You are talking only about the chemcial appearance of mutations, not how they fare in population over time.

Quote
We've always been given RM/NS with no real explanation about how that resolves into complexity.


It resolves into "complexity" just fine.  If a mutation adds complexity, and it helps the organisms reproduce, then it will become more common.  Further mutations can accumulate, leading to more complexity.

Quote
The fall back was always time but that doesn't necessarily jive with some estimates based upon rates.


What estimates?  Are they any good, or is it just one of your pals making up numbers?

Present the calculations, and we'll determine if they are worth anything.

You tried this argument months ago, and it was refuted then, and you gave no response.

But we can always try again.

Remember ENU screens?

Why don't you tell us what you think happens during an ENU screen, and what you think evolutionists predict should happen.  Then you can go about proving that you predicted right, and they predicted wrong.

No hand-waving about "complexity" or "high-level assesments".  Just tell us in plain, specific English, with numbers where appropriate.

  
skeptic



Posts: 1163
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 11 2008,22:24   

sorry Nerull, it's quite a bit more complicated than that.  Also, lethality is not the driving mechanism in conservation.  Quick suggestion, you guys might want to study up on that which you appear to know nothing about.  You could start with Wikipedia, I hear that is fertile ground for the lazy mind.

  
Nerull



Posts: 317
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 11 2008,22:28   

Quote (skeptic @ Jan. 11 2008,23:24)
sorry Nerull, it's quite a bit more complicated than that.  Also, lethality is not the driving mechanism in conservation.  Quick suggestion, you guys might want to study up on that which you appear to know nothing about.  You could start with Wikipedia, I hear that is fertile ground for the lazy mind.

You still have to explain how a mutation that effects a random location in the DNA sequence creates a change related to the environment, Skeptic.

Stop dodging.

EDIT: Also, I never said lethality was the only reason, just one.

I'm not your babysitter. I don't have time to hold your hand and give you the education you so desperately need, which apparently also includes basic reading comprehension.

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To rebut creationism you pretty much have to be a biologist, chemist, geologist, philosopher, lawyer and historian all rolled into one. While to advocate creationism, you just have to be an idiot. -- tommorris

   
skeptic



Posts: 1163
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 12 2008,01:26   

I'm sorry, I'm not dodging.  I'm not sure you realize what you're saying.  I am not saying that mutations occur at random locations in the genome.  And all mutations are related to the environment, nothing happens in a vacuum.  It may help if I clarify one thing, the environment is not just what some are trying to save, in this instance it is the complete system and state that the organism is in.

off topic but has anyone seen or heard from Louis lately?  I'm starting to get a little worried about him.

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 12 2008,07:23   

Quote (skeptic @ Jan. 12 2008,01:26)
I'm sorry, I'm not dodging.  I'm not sure you realize what you're saying.  

You may not be "dodging" Nerull's arguments, but you are certainly backpedaling frantically. And you are ignoring  this, just a few posts up. I'm pretty sure I know why you are ignoring it, but I'd appreciate your response nonetheless.
Quote
give me your "good mechanistic explanations" for the diversity of life that derive logically from whatever box you do find yourself in these days.


--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
skeptic



Posts: 1163
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 12 2008,07:29   

sorry Alba, not sure which specific post that link was for.  It brought up the whole page but as far as a mechanistic theory, I'll put together a summary and post it here.

  
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