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stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 01 2008,23:01    Quote (sparc @ Feb. 01 2008,13:28) DaveScot says: Quote I have a challenge for Ian Musgrave. The sequences provided code for 80 amino acids. That�s almost certainly not a whole protein and not enough information to determine design/non-design. So, evolution could have produced any given 80-amino-acid string, Davetard says. Can't be sure of design. So in other words, Davetard's saying evolution can create things like insulin. Quote Insulin is a peptide hormone composed of 51 amino acid residues and has a molecular weight of 5808 Da. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insulin

sparc Posts: 2088 Joined: April 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 01 2008,23:28    Quote Insulin is a peptide hormone composed of 51 amino acid residues and has a molecular weight of 5808 Da. If you deprive DaveScot of the complete information (pre-pro-insulin, 110 aa) he can not analyze the sequence. -------------- "[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God." - William Dembski -

sparc Posts: 2088 Joined: April 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 01 2008,23:46    Quote ID: 1- Does not claim that it can identify every instance of design. 2- Cannot detect for certainty that something was not designed. This leaves, however, the detection of some things that are designed (focusing particularly on clear-cut cases at the end of the spectrum). Next he will claim that the end of the spectrum comprises bacterial flagella. -------------- "[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God." - William Dembski -

Ptaylor Posts: 1180 Joined: Aug. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 01 2008,23:51    CeilingCat Let me add my thanks for saving the 'debate' thread. I notice that Richard Dawkins has linked to your comment as well. -------------- We no longer say: “Another day; another bad day for Darwinism.” We now say: “Another day since the time Darwinism was disproved.” -PaV, Uncommon Descent, 19 June 2016

sparc Posts: 2088 Joined: April 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 01 2008,23:54    Quote To make this a more rational challenge, we would have to have a number of non-designed sequences (i.e., random sequencing), and one designed sequence. random sequencing? Eric doesn't have a clue. "bad biology at UD" deserves its own thread. Just remember DaveScots haploid Jesus. -------------- "[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God." - William Dembski -

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 02 2008,00:03    Creationists like UD and FtK and DO'L will always try to airbrush history. Here at AtBC, thanks to CeilingCat and countless others, we work to preserve the historical record of what was actually said.

Kristine Posts: 3061 Joined: Sep. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 02 2008,00:46    Yes, good job, Ceiling Cat! This place is a virtual clipping service, and you grabbed an important snippet. That disappeared post is going around the web. Sleep well, Dembski, dear. Freedom of speech and all that. I can't help but wonder how Ftk feels about her suggestion being deleted... You know, light bulbs have to be finally going off over there over the heads of the commenters, but I'm not holding my shimmies until they get a clue! -------------- Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip? AtBC Poet Laureate "I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive "Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

Bob O'H Posts: 2564 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 02 2008,02:16    Our friends at UD have noticed that the challenge has been altered: http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelli....allenge They've immediately cracked open the tard and declared themselves victorious.  kairosfocus has even decided to score his own cricket match: Quote 6 kairosfocus 02/02/2008 1:16 am PPS: I see DLH�s:    a single mutation (SNP) can cause a fatal difference. So presumably, a single mutation can change common virus� into deadly air born pandemics. Determining if that was natural or human caused would require forensics examination of the spread to determine the source etc. In short, by widening the context we see a wider configuration that now allows us to infer to agency, thence perhaps isolation of which agent has motive- means- opportunity. This upgrades the score � the no-ball was batted for six, so it is 12 runs off one ball in the over, with five more to go. I think Evo Mat team Captain Dawkins is getting worried about this bowler! My (ID) prediction is that in reality Patrick was bowled off the final delivery of the over, after failing to pick the wrong'un. Bob -------------- It is fun to dip into the various threads to watch cluelessness at work in the hands of the confident exponent. - Soapy Sam (so say we all)

Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 02 2008,02:24    " virus� " is one helluva plural. -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

tsig Posts: 339 Joined: Aug. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 02 2008,02:47    Quote (Mister DNA @ Feb. 01 2008,02:16) Quote (CeilingCat @ Feb. 01 2008,02:04) The buggers just 404'd the entire debate thread!  Luckily, I saved it: Excellent work, Ceiling Cat. You ARE watching, apparently... The other debate thread is still there, but it doesn't have any of the "We just got pwned" comments. Shall we give CeilingCat a rub under the chin. Truly you see all, record all. Many blogs thank you.

jeannot Posts: 1201 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 02 2008,03:00    Quote (C.J.O'Brien @ Feb. 01 2008,14:22) bFast: � Quote if a UFO came down, and little green men popped off. If they went on to claim that they are the designer of life on earth. If they then sat down with the scientists and showed them how they did it. This would be a solid victory for ID. That's just too retarded. "If a human spacecraft came down some planet, and men popped off. If we went to claim that we are the designer of life on Klendatu, if we sat down with those extraterrestrials and showed them how we did. This would be a solid victory for ID." I mean, why would we invent some story like that? And funny to see that IDer rely on green men to prove their (cough) hypothesis.

tsig Posts: 339 Joined: Aug. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 02 2008,03:05    Quote (CeilingCat @ Feb. 01 2008,15:55) Quote (Mister DNA @ Feb. 01 2008,02:16)   Quote (CeilingCat @ Feb. 01 2008,02:04) The buggers just 404'd the entire debate thread!  Luckily, I saved it: Excellent work, Ceiling Cat. You ARE watching, apparently... The other debate thread is still there, but it doesn't have any of the "We just got pwned" comments. Omniscience is a wonderful thing, but it has a dark side.  For instance, I know exactly what Ann Coulter looks like nude. Remember god exists only in your head so feed your head. When you see god next remind her that he owes me $666. Anywhen, anywhere??

tsig Posts: 339 Joined: Aug. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 02 2008,03:10    Quote (Kristine @ Feb. 02 2008,00:46) Yes, good job, Ceiling Cat! This place is a virtual clipping service, and you grabbed an important snippet. That disappeared post is going around the web. Sleep well, Dembski, dear. Freedom of speech and all that. I can't help but wonder how Ftk feels about her suggestion being deleted... You know, light bulbs have to be finally going off over there over the heads of the commenters, but I'm not holding my shimmies until they get a clue! :O I always thought of your shimmies as reflections of reality and that if you shimmied with just the right harmony the world would change. or not edit not

Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 02 2008,03:32    The disappeared thread has made the Pandas Thumb also. -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

guthrie Posts: 696 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 02 2008,04:34    I can only assume that the UD'ers are masochists, for continually giving us sticks to beat them with.

Wesley R. Elsberry Posts: 4991 Joined: May 2002 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 02 2008,06:08    PT article with links to Haverford videos -------------- "You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

sparc Posts: 2088 Joined: April 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 02 2008,11:15    The Dr. Geoff Simmons vs PZ Myers Debate is back but only with six comments. -------------- "[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God." - William Dembski -

Bob O'H Posts: 2564 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 02 2008,11:35    ... and FtK is not happy: Quote 6 FtK 02/01/2008 8:39 am Oh, good grief� -------------- It is fun to dip into the various threads to watch cluelessness at work in the hands of the confident exponent. - Soapy Sam (so say we all)

oldmanintheskydidntdoit Posts: 4999 Joined: July 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 02 2008,11:45    Quote (Bob O'H @ Feb. 02 2008,11:35) ... and FtK is not happy:   Quote 6 FtK 02/01/2008 8:39 am Oh, good grief� gore asks Quote Please do post a link of somewhere we can download it! Do you think they will? -------------- I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies". FTK if there are even critical flaws in Gauger�s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand Gordon Mullings

Zachriel Posts: 2723 Joined: Sep. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 02 2008,11:52    DaveScot has his finger on the banninator. Quote DaveScot: Q ID makes no claims about a designer�s means, motive, or opportunity beyond the fact that means and opportunity must have been available in some way. If you make one more strawman regarding the claims of ID it�ll be your last comment here. I�m putting you on moderation in the meantime. The term "ID" (Intelligent Design) is rather interesting. Quote Dembski: Can objects, even if nothing is known about how they arose, exhibit features that reliably signal the action of an intelligent cause? ... Intelligent design is controversial because it purports to find signs of intelligence in nature, and specifically in biological systems. So, ID does make a claim. Assuming ID's methodology is valid and the claim is supported, then we do know something about the Designer. The Designer is intelligent. The question then becomes what is the design inference when applied to intelligence generally. Does intelligence exhibit CSI (complex specified information) or IRC (irreducible complexity)? It is a reasonable question. -------------- You never step on the same tard twice—for it's not the same tard and you're not the same person.

Reciprocating Bill Posts: 4265 Joined: Oct. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 02 2008,11:53    Quote (sparc @ Feb. 02 2008,12:15) The Dr. Geoff Simmons vs PZ Myers Debate is back but only with six comments. Wow. Nixplanatory Self-Ridiculative Selection with Hidden Obliviation AND Resurrection and Renewal! Edge of Evolution, my ass. -------------- Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be. "The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." - David Foster Wallace "Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down." - Barry Arrington

Erasmus, FCD Posts: 6349 Joined: June 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 02 2008,12:33    Quote (Zachriel @ Feb. 02 2008,11:52) DaveScot has his finger on the banninator. Quote DaveScot: Q ID makes no claims about a designer�s means, motive, or opportunity beyond the fact that means and opportunity must have been available in some way. If you make one more strawman regarding the claims of ID it�ll be your last comment here. I�m putting you on moderation in the meantime. The term "ID" (Intelligent Design) is rather interesting. Quote Dembski: Can objects, even if nothing is known about how they arose, exhibit features that reliably signal the action of an intelligent cause? ... Intelligent design is controversial because it purports to find signs of intelligence in nature, and specifically in biological systems. So, ID does make a claim. Assuming ID's methodology is valid and the claim is supported, then we do know something about the Designer. The Designer is intelligent. The question then becomes what is the design inference when applied to intelligence generally. Does intelligence exhibit CSI (complex specified information) or IRC (irreducible complexity)? It is a reasonable question. Of course they have never defined intelligence.  More like 'You know it when you see it' kinda thing that many of the inmates over there have aped in various other contexts. I don't think they CAN define intelligence, for it would put their religious beliefs hypothesis at risk.  Remember, this is (as Wes just noted) a verificationist program. -------------- You're obviously illiterate as hell.�Peach, bro.-FtK Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

Erasmus, FCD Posts: 6349 Joined: June 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 02 2008,12:35    Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Feb. 02 2008,11:53) Quote (sparc @ Feb. 02 2008,12:15) The Dr. Geoff Simmons vs PZ Myers Debate is back but only with six comments. Wow. Nixplanatory Self-Ridiculative Selection with Hidden Obliviation AND Resurrection and Renewal! Edge of Evolution, my ass. If that isn't macroevilution i don't know what is.  And I think that I do in fact know what it is. -------------- You're obviously illiterate as hell.�Peach, bro.-FtK Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

Jasper Posts: 76 Joined: Mar. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 02 2008,13:04    Quote (sparc @ Feb. 02 2008,12:15) The Dr. Geoff Simmons vs PZ Myers Debate is back but only with six comments. No, that is a different thread. The original thread still links to an Error 404 - Not Found.

Hermagoras Posts: 1260 Joined: June 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 02 2008,13:13    Quote (Jasper @ Feb. 02 2008,13:04) Quote (sparc @ Feb. 02 2008,12:15) The Dr. Geoff Simmons vs PZ Myers Debate is back but only with six comments. No, that is a different thread. The original thread still links to an Error 404 - Not Found. larrynormanfan : not a tard   Quote If I recall correctly, a whole thread on this debate was posted previously, and Dr. Simmons was judged to have lost woefully. Ears were put in fingers, eyes were shut, and �The Star Spangled Banner� was sung in the hope that the whole thing could be ignored. Eventually (by design or happy accident?) the entire thread was deleted. Cue bannination in 3, 2, . . . -------------- "I am not currently proving that objective morality is true. I did that a long time ago and you missed it." -- StephenB http://paralepsis.blogspot.com/....pot.com

Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 02 2008,14:16    Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Feb. 02 2008,11:53) Quote (sparc @ Feb. 02 2008,12:15) The Dr. Geoff Simmons vs PZ Myers Debate is back but only with six comments. Wow. Nixplanatory Self-Ridiculative Selection with Hidden Obliviation AND Resurrection and Renewal! Edge of Evolution, my ass. As The pandas thumb, RichardDawkins.net and Pharyngula has all laughed about the disappearing thread "The only missing links are at Uncommon Descent", they're probably try damage control. Of course, it makes them look even worse. FtK, how do you live with yourself cheerleading for these folks? -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

sparc Posts: 2088 Joined: April 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 02 2008,14:20    Quote No, that is a different thread. The original thread still links to an Error 404 - Not Found. Sorry, but sometimes UD is a little bit too cluttered. -------------- "[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God." - William Dembski -

Advocatus Diaboli Posts: 198 Joined: Nov. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 02 2008,15:06    Whoa! There's a link now to the PZ vs Simmons download. -------------- I once thought that I made a mistake, but I was wrong. "I freely admit I�m a sociopath" - DaveScot "Most importanly, the facts are on the side of ID." - scordova "UD is the greatest website of all time." stevestory

Reciprocating Bill Posts: 4265 Joined: Oct. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 02 2008,16:56    Idiotnet.com.au:   Quote Do personal beliefs change behavior? idnet.com.au Do our beliefs about free will change our behavior? It seems they do. Here researches primed some subjects to believe that our behavior is wholy determined by environment and genes, and that free will is a myth. (This is a theme of Dawkins who says that punishing a criminal is like kicking your car when it breaks down) Those subjects acted less ethically than those not primed. Beliefs influence behavior. What would a similar experiment show if the belief challenged was that there is Design behind the universe and life? Do people act the same after reading and believing �The God Delusion�? None of this addresses the actual truth of the belief, just whether believing it changes behavior. Fascinating! Pssst. Dude. The experimental demonstration that simple priming - which occurs and remains OUTSIDE of one's awareness - governs to a significant degree one's subsequent ethical choices is NOT good news for advocacy of free, rational agency. Better keep that one under your hat. -------------- Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be. "The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." - David Foster Wallace "Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down." - Barry Arrington

steve_h Posts: 544 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 02 2008,17:12    Bannination � Quote Q applying the claim that intelligent agency must precede intelligent living agency Nowhere in the definition does it say this. No more warnings. Adios. edit: Bannination aside, DS is right. ID proponensists never claim that origin of life (OOL) is an impossible hurdle for non-intelligent processes to overcome. Never.

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