Antievolution.org - Antievolution.org Discussion Board -Topic::The Edge of Evolution

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Posted: June 13 2007,17:45

Quote

design theory

oh, it's an actual theory now, is it?

what'dImiss?

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Posted: June 13 2007,19:41

The Humiliation Continues.

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Posted: June 13 2007,19:44

Is it wrong to enjoy the schadenfreude of Behe getting dismembered?

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Posted: June 13 2007,19:53

no Steve, no.

why?

because nobody ASKED him to write this tripe. He felt he needed to inflict it on us.

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"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

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Posted: June 13 2007,20:04

Poor bastard. Desperately trying to salvage his 'discovery'.

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Posted: June 13 2007,20:43

meh, he's tenured, he's not too worried about the implications of what he writes at this point, only that he is at least remembered for something, anything.

the extra cash from book sales is likely quite minor, but welcome as well.

Unfortunately for him (?), I think most around these parts are much more likely to recall him for the paraphrase of his testimony in the Kitzmiller case, than what he wrote in his books.

"Astrology is Science, by my definition of science"

while it's quite easy to see JAD's level of mental disability, Behe doesn't post near enough to get any kind of a consistent feel for what is going on in his head.

It does make me curious, and wonder if people have in fact run across indicative posts of Behe that would make for evidence as to just how far and in what direction his wits went.

no, I don't feel sorry for the man.

yet.

give him another 5 years or so.

once he's spent a few years in emeritus status, and he starts to babble, then I'll start feeling sorry for him.

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"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

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Darth Robo

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Posted: June 14 2007,06:55

Is it too late to tell the Klingons to make Behe Qu'vatlh?

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Posted: June 14 2007,12:36

not at all. in fact, you might be far too early.

after all, according to KRIP, the Klingons only seeded us, they haven't been around to check back yet.

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"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

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Posted: June 14 2007,13:15

I haven't read Behe's book, but if this part of RBH's review is any indication, he's still making embarrassingly bad statistical arguments:

Quote

Of course, that�s a ridiculous set of numbers, since the probability calculations do not veridically map the phenomena. Behe�s calculations are directly parallel to those of young-earth creationist Henry Morris in his 1974 Scientific Creationism and they are equally ludicrous. Unfortunately for Behe, they are informative only about the ignorance of the person doing the calculating. They ignore the role of neutral mutations in making multiple potential evolutionary pathways available and the probability amplification of cumulative selection � see Jerry Coyne�s review and ths recent Nature brief review of the reconstruction of selectable pathways in molecular evolution. Of particular interest in the latter review is a description of one study in which 120 potential evolutionary pathways from a precursor to a �final� structure were identified. Of the 120 potential pathways, 18 were composed of selectable steps all the way. Now, if one picked out one of the pathways with unselectable steps, one could marvel at how an intelligent designer was necessary to bridge the gaps. On the other hand, if one knows there are pathways in which all steps are selectable, no designer is necessary. Behe consistently picks out just one path and marvels at the gaps.

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Posted: June 14 2007,13:21

Jim Wynne thinks Behe is deliberately lying at this point.

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Posted: June 14 2007,13:58

from the post:

Quote

My own view is that Behe, Dembski, et al know they're wrong on the science and math, but have chosen what they see as a Greater Good--bringing the masses to Jebus,

this brings up an interesting point:

Is the lying a deliberate calculation, or a subconscious extension of an underlying system of denial and projection?

If they firmly believe they need to bring the masses to Jeebus, it seems at least plausible that at some level, they simply don't have the same understanding of what they do as "lying" as an observer might.

I think about this doubly when I see FTK post, and AFDave as well.

it appears clear that their oft repeated misstatements of fact in the clear presence of many posted corrections appears on the surface to be essentially "lying". but the nature of their responses seems to suggest that they don't have a conscious recognition of what they do as lying.

It's exceedingly hard to tease out what the primary motivating factors are for people like Behe. It's clear it's not just money, or he'd kick out far more books more often. IF it really is "bringing people to jeebus", simply saying he is "lying" just doesn't really cover the underlying motivations well enough, imo.

IMO, based on a very basic understanding of psychology, much of the motivating factor is entirely selfish in nature:

in order to maintain a certain level of stable compartmentalization, they require that their specific rationalizations and projections be enabled by those around them. Their minds will construct any specific set of fabrications in order to attract those who would enable them, and thus protect the relatively stable set of compartmentalizations they have developed over the years.

Lies? yes, but not to their minds. At least not consciously.

the more i see the commonalities of behavior, the more I think this issue has far less to do with religion, or even money, and the more I think it has to do with a complex case of enabling and maintaining a specific mindset.

I think Nick has spent a lot of time looking at the history of the creationist movement, and looking at much of his commentary as he has investigated the issue, there appears to be a lot of evidence that as science has become more and more important in producing and maintaining our quality of life, the "creationist reaction" has become more and more well defined.

I recall having seen that much of the modern creationist movement really started only about 80 years ago, though the details escape me at the moment.

now recall FTK talking about how creation scientists have been producing evolutionary hypotheses "long before Darwin".

yes, this IS a lie, on the face of it, but it makes perfect sense if your mind is rapidly spinning defenses.

did she INTEND to lie about that? highly doubtful.

I think papers on the psychology of this issue, like that in last month's Science, are finally (and about damn time, IMO) taking a closer look at the creationist mindset from a purely psychological perspective.

I'm betting my money that in the end, that direction will be the most productive in resolving the conflicts many posses between science and religion.

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Jim_Wynne

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Jim Wynne thinks Behe is deliberately lying at this point.

Posted: June 14 2007,14:11

Quote (stevestory @ June 14 2007,13:21)

Thanks, Steve. I think that Behe started out earnest enough, but painted himself into a corner. Now he's just going to sit there and milk it. He's clearly given up any scientific credibility he might have once had, and short of complete retraction of the past ten years, he'll never get it back. He knows this--he's not delusional. His only choices at this point are to jump off of the speeding gravy train before his academic reputation is too far in the distance, or take a seat in the club car and enjoy the ride.

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Evolution is not about laws but about randomness on happanchance.--Robert Byers, at PT

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Posted: June 14 2007,14:33

Quote

He knows this--he's not delusional

Jim-

go re-read (or read, if you haven't yet), the transcript of Behe's testimony at the Kitzmiller trial (it's pretty easy to find online).

after reading that, tell me just how sure you are he has no delusions he is trying to maintain.

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Jim_Wynne

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Posted: June 14 2007,14:50

Quote (Ichthyic @ June 14 2007,14:33)

Quote

He knows this--he's not delusional

Jim-

go re-read (or read, if you haven't yet), the transcript of Behe's testimony at the Kitzmiller trial (it's pretty easy to find online).

after reading that, tell me just how sure you are he has no delusions he is trying to maintain.

I have read the transcripts. At Dover, Behe chose to stay on the train. Once that choice is made and common sense has been abdicated, practically anything he says or writes is bound to sound delusional. If I'm right, why should I expect that he'd get on the stand and do an Emily Litella and say "Never mind, I don't really believe any of this"?

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Evolution is not about laws but about randomness on happanchance.--Robert Byers, at PT

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Posted: June 14 2007,15:00

my point is that there is a difference between a hoax or a scam and what Behe and those like him seem to portray.

sure, there is likely to be an element of thinking your audience are suckers, but that doesn't appear to explain the bulk of their responses, or their behavior.

I recall a thread fairly recently where there was a raging debate over whether people like Falwell actually "believe" even half of what they were saying.

there wouldn't even be any question of it if they were simple snake-oil salesmen.

let's look at some other "moderate" examples.

what about Francis Collins' claim of "moral law indicates special creation" in his recent book?

Is he lying to sucker rubes?

I think not, though he might be lying to himself.

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Jim_Wynne

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Posted: June 14 2007,15:37

Quote (Ichthyic @ June 14 2007,15:00)

my point is that there is a difference between a hoax or a scam and what Behe and those like him seem to portray.

sure, there is likely to be an element of thinking your audience are suckers, but that doesn't appear to explain the bulk of their responses, or their behavior.

I recall a thread fairly recently where there was a raging debate over whether people like Falwell actually "believe" even half of what they were saying.

there wouldn't even be any question of it if they were simple snake-oil salesmen.

let's look at some other "moderate" examples.

what about Francis Collins' claim of "moral law indicates special creation" in his recent book?

Is he lying to sucker rubes?

I think not, though he might be lying to himself.

No one is asked to reveal their motives when entering the Big Tent, thus there are many to be found within it. We can safely say that poor ol' JAD is off his rocker, for example, and DaveScot suffers from the damning combination of big ego and small intellect. There's no reason to expect that everyone came to the Tent on the same road. It's only my opinion, but it seems to me that Behe shows enough signs of rationality to be able to exclude him from the delusional group. I think that he probably does take his theology seriously, and perhaps has trouble reconciling his faith with his science, but that doesn't mean he's not deliberately prevaricating.

By way of full disclosure, by the way, I haven't read Behe's latest. I'm waiting for the used copies to get real cheap on Amazon. I bought DBB for about $5, I think. Right now the cheapest used copy of "Edge" is about $17, which is too much to pay for a bunch of stupid.

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Evolution is not about laws but about randomness on happanchance.--Robert Byers, at PT

Arden Chatfield

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Posted: June 14 2007,15:42

Didn't notice this before:

Quote

Why don't you start a blog and share some personal info. about yourself so we can psychoanalysis you, buddy.--FtK

This is so beautiful for so many reasons.

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Posted: June 14 2007,16:11

Quote

It's only my opinion, but it seems to me that Behe shows enough signs of rationality to be able to exclude him from the delusional group.

different backgrounds, I guess. coming from the background of a zoologist, 99% of what he says IS completely delusional.

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Posted: June 14 2007,16:12

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ June 14 2007,15:42)

Didn't notice this before:

Quote

Why don't you start a blog and share some personal info. about yourself so we can psychoanalysis you, buddy.--FtK

This is so beautiful for so many reasons. :)

my mind is still purposefully blanking on the extreme irony in that sentence.

my eyes glance away every time i try to finish the sentence, even now...

must be an automatic irony protection mechanism kicking in.

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BWE

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Posted: June 15 2007,06:40

Quote (Ichthyic @ June 13 2007,19:53)

no Steve, no.

why?

because nobody ASKED him to write this tripe. He felt he needed to inflict it on us.

or he needed the money. Like selling pardons.

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When wished on the morning star
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BWE

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Posted: June 15 2007,06:56

Quote (Ichthyic @ June 14 2007,13:58)

from the post:

Quote

My own view is that Behe, Dembski, et al know they're wrong on the science and math, but have chosen what they see as a Greater Good--bringing the masses to Jebus,

this brings up an interesting point:

Is the lying a deliberate calculation, or a subconscious extension of an underlying system of denial and projection?
...

It's exceedingly hard to tease out what the primary motivating factors are for people like Behe. It's clear it's not just money, or he'd kick out far more books more often. IF it really is "bringing people to jeebus", simply saying he is "lying" just doesn't really cover the underlying motivations well enough, imo....

... there appears to be a lot of evidence that as science has become more and more important in producing and maintaining our quality of life, the "creationist reaction" has become more and more well defined.

I recall having seen that much of the modern creationist movement really started only about 80 years ago, though the details escape me at the moment.

now recall FTK talking about how creation scientists have been producing evolutionary hypotheses "long before Darwin".

yes, this IS a lie, on the face of it, but it makes perfect sense if your mind is rapidly spinning defenses.

did she INTEND to lie about that? highly doubtful.

I think papers on the psychology of this issue, like that in last month's Science, are finally (and about damn time, IMO) taking a closer look at the creationist mindset from a purely psychological perspective.

I'm betting my money that in the end, that direction will be the most productive in resolving the conflicts many posses between science and religion.

I think you are probably right Ichthy but the money doesn't hurt.

He may not churn out more for other reasons:

a) they are hard for him to write.
b) he has a day job a Leheigh still doesn't he?
c) it may not have occurred to him to write more.

I can feel for the fear that must go through the FTK/AFDave crowd when they try to reconcile their families and culture with a harsh reality that must appear to be mocking them but mocking has it's purpose.

If a little bit of humility- just a little bit -were to precede these types of folks, they might not get spanked so hard. And, apparently, some of us are assigned the role of karmic debt collectors. Frankly, I'm pissed. Our schools are being sold as scrap, our culture won't question the most corrupt government America's ever had, and ignorance is being intentionally introduced to the next generations.

Bullshite. They make money off it too. Well I wouldn't feel bad watching their representatives being smacked around a bit. Maybe they do believe it but it doesn't mean they don't make money off it. And then little brainwashed minions like FTK and AFdave come along and spread the word to people who are now damm near as dumb as they are.

Ask Steve story about deep south rednecks.

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Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered
When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it
Look what it's done so far

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Posted: June 15 2007,13:00

Quote

but the money doesn't hurt.

I rather view it more like another enabler.

for example, in Behe's case, he's tenured faculty at a decent Unveristy. while he might not be drawing a lot of grant money, unless he's a complete idiot when it comes to finances (or he spends his money on hookers and crack), he's likely doing just fine wrt to income.

now Dembski, OTOH, I could imagine him being short enough on the cash front that it becomes a significant motivating factor.

meh, I guess I'm just saying that the commonalities exhibited by these folks don't appear to be best explained from the monetary motive alone.

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carlsonjok

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Posted: June 15 2007,13:24

Quote (Ichthyic @ June 15 2007,13:00)

Quote

but the money doesn't hurt.

I rather view it more like another enabler.

for example, in Behe's case, he's tenured faculty at a decent Unveristy. �while he might not be drawing a lot of grant money, unless he's a complete idiot when it comes to finances (or he spends his money on hookers and crack), he's likely doing just fine wrt to income.

If I am not mistaken, Behe has 9 children.

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Posted: June 15 2007,13:25

9?!

*sigh*

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khan

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Posted: June 16 2007,09:14

Quote (Ichthyic @ June 15 2007,13:25)

9?!

*sigh*

Home-schooled.

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Reciprocating Bill

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Posted: June 16 2007,10:47

There are other factors operating here beyond psychological states (lying? delusional?) and possible monetary motivations. IMHO the most important, perhaps implicit in what some have said here, is community identification, membership and commitment.

I would argue that, with the publication of DBB, Behe joined a community of ID "scholars" and advocates who, at least at the outset of the movement, believed they were on to something substantive and important that would advance their particular brands of Christian faith. He also effectively resigned from the community of scientists as he ignored critiques of his book and devised his own, idiosyncratic definition of science. Community allegiance is itself a very powerful motivator; his membership in the ID community will buffer him from the harshest consequences of his resignation from the scientific community. �Behe's latest book appears to be an act of determined advocacy on behalf of the community of which he is now a member.

BTW, most of us are subject to similar factors. �I am not a scientist, but I admire and identify with the ideals and methods of the scientific community, and cannot conceive of "switching sides" in part because I can't imagine myself a member of the ID/Christian communities. In addition to the fact that I disbelieve the central tenets of Christianity, particularly in its simple minded fundamentalist guise, much of that community strikes me as homely in the manner of the photos below. A portrait of the intellectual heart of these communities would be analogously homely.

Of course, what arouses my greatest admiration is the scientific engine of "distributed cognition" and professional communication and debate by means of which theoretical concerns drive and are put to empirical test across large programs of inquiry and research. But community membership and identification are somewhat behind that admiration. I think that is what is so intriguing about posters such as FTK; her paranoid distrust of the world community of science, which most of us here so much admire, is difficult to fathom. �Until one inspects the community of which she is a member, and to which she is deeply and generatively committed.

[edit] oops... forgot to include my pics, from a collection of "worst album covers ever" I encountered somewhere:

But then my favorite recording of all time is Uncle Meat (FZ and the Mothers of Invention):

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Posted: June 16 2007,13:38

heh, that country church one I think is all cast from the MadTV show.

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skeptic

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Posted: June 17 2007,07:52

Bill, one question, have you read the book and do you have any real justification for this crap you're spouting beyond hatred?

Reciprocating Bill

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