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Henry J Posts: 5786 Joined: Mar. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 10 2010,22:55    Quote What is time apart from its measurement? Phenomena exist apart from memory and our ability to measure, but does time? Is time a phenomenon, like chemical interactions, or a way that we organize phenomena, like "species"? Imnsho, the fact that measurements of time intervals can be made, plus the fact that interactions aren't generally observed between things at different "points" in time, implies that the measurements are of something analogous to distances, but along a dimension that behaves somewhat differently than do dimensions of space. Or something like that. Henry

fnxtr Posts: 3504 Joined: June 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 11 2010,11:05    That's sort of what I was obliquely referring to. If time is another dimension, it (too) may exist without any kind of ruler.   It could be an anarcho-syndicalist commune. -------------- "[A] book said there were 5 trillion witnesses. Who am I supposed to believe, 5 trillion witnesses or you? That shit's, like, ironclad. " -- stevestory "Wow, you must be retarded. I said that CO2 does not trap heat. If it did then it would not cool down at night."  Joe G

Lou FCD Posts: 5455 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 12 2010,12:46    Autotrophy in Kingdom Animalia: Green Sea Slug steals chloroplasts intact from the algae it eats. Quote Scientists have shown that once a young slug has slurped its first chloroplast meal from one of its few favored species of Vaucheria algae, the slug does not have to eat again for the rest of its life. All it has to do is sunbathe. Cool. -------------- “Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas? Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

Quack Posts: 1961 Joined: May 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 12 2010,14:30    Quote (Lou FCD @ Jan. 12 2010,12:46) Autotrophy in Kingdom Animalia: Green Sea Slug steals chloroplasts intact from the algae it eats.   Quote Scientists have shown that once a young slug has slurped its first chloroplast meal from one of its few favored species of Vaucheria algae, the slug does not have to eat again for the rest of its life. All it has to do is sunbathe. Cool. Grand design. -------------- Rocks have no biology.               Robert Byers.

Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 12 2010,15:27    Wasn't there some speculation on GNOME CHOMPSKY'S view on evolution? http://www.chomsky.info/debates/20060301.htm Quote CHOMSKY: You could be an intellectually respectable atheist in the 17th century, or in the fifth century. In fact, I don’t even know what an atheist is. When people ask me if I’m an atheist, I have to ask them what they mean. What is it that I’m supposed to not believe in? Until you can answer that question I can’t tell you whether I’m an atheist, and the question doesn’t arise. I don’t see anything logical in being agnostic about the Greek gods. There’s no agnosticism about ectoplasm [in the non-biological sense]. I don’t see how one can be an agnostic when one doesn’t know what it is that one is supposed to believe in, or reject. There are plenty of things that are unknown, but are assumed reasonably to exist, even in the most basic sciences. Maybe 90 percent of the mass-energy in the universe is called “dark,” because nobody knows what it is. Science is an exploration of very hard questions. Not to underrate the theory of evolution, that’s a terrific intellectual advance, but it tells you nothing about whether there’s whatever people believe in when they talk about God. It doesn’t even talk about that topic. It talks about how organisms evolve. -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

Kristine Posts: 3061 Joined: Sep. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 12 2010,16:05    Quote (fnxtr @ Jan. 11 2010,11:05) That's sort of what I was obliquely referring to. If time is another dimension, it (too) may exist without any kind of ruler.   It could be an anarcho-syndicalist commune. Ah, I see (said the blind woman)! I'm getting this (I think), but if (a) dimension(s) exist(s) without a ruler, what's the difference between that and a singularity? *brainfahrt*! -------------- Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip? AtBC Poet Laureate "I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive "Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

Henry J Posts: 5786 Joined: Mar. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 12 2010,17:24    Quote the slug does not have to eat again for the rest of its life. All it has to do is sunbathe. But that could lead to a sluggish lifestyle for the creature! Henry

fnxtr Posts: 3504 Joined: June 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 12 2010,17:29    Quote (Kristine @ Jan. 12 2010,14:05) Quote (fnxtr @ Jan. 11 2010,11:05) That's sort of what I was obliquely referring to. If time is another dimension, it (too) may exist without any kind of ruler.   It could be an anarcho-syndicalist commune. Ah, I see (said the blind woman)! I'm getting this (I think), but if (a) dimension(s) exist(s) without a ruler, what's the difference between that and a singularity? *brainfahrt*! :p "Hmm. Tricky." -- Deep Thought. I should of course read a little more on the subject, but as I understand it a singularity is infinitely dense (like Byers), a condition of the spacetime curvature, erm, disappearing into itself. (But does the matter that disappeared into the singularity still exist?) Space devoid of matter and energy would be just the opposite, infinitely flat. Or so I understand it. But yeah, I also understand the perspective that if there's nothing in the universe, it doesn't matter how big it is. More sparks in the head. Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again. :-) -------------- "[A] book said there were 5 trillion witnesses. Who am I supposed to believe, 5 trillion witnesses or you? That shit's, like, ironclad. " -- stevestory "Wow, you must be retarded. I said that CO2 does not trap heat. If it did then it would not cool down at night."  Joe G

RDK Posts: 229 Joined: Aug. 2009 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 12 2010,17:31    Quote (Henry J @ Jan. 12 2010,17:24)   Quote the slug does not have to eat again for the rest of its life. All it has to do is sunbathe. But that could lead to a sluggish lifestyle for the creature! Henry The heathen!  Don't the 7 Deadly Sins speak out against being a sloth? -------------- If you are not: Leviathan please Logout under Meta in the sidebar. ‘‘I was like ‘Oh my God! It’s Jesus on a banana!’’  - Lisa Swinton, Jesus-eating pagan

fnxtr Posts: 3504 Joined: June 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 12 2010,17:36    So now slugs and slothes(!) are the same "kind"? At first glance it seems like a pretty cushy lifestyle, but then, it'd be pretty boring. -------------- "[A] book said there were 5 trillion witnesses. Who am I supposed to believe, 5 trillion witnesses or you? That shit's, like, ironclad. " -- stevestory "Wow, you must be retarded. I said that CO2 does not trap heat. If it did then it would not cool down at night."  Joe G

Quack Posts: 1961 Joined: May 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 13 2010,02:37    Is it possible that space (or maybe rather the space-time continuum) and matter are linked - you can't have the one without the other, or vice versa? -------------- Rocks have no biology.               Robert Byers.

Henry J Posts: 5786 Joined: Mar. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 13 2010,10:40    Quote Is it possible that space (or maybe rather the space-time continuum) and matter are linked The impression I get from what I've read on that is that matter is a form of energy, and energy is a vibration of space (whatever space might be). If that's not too far off, then matter/energy would have no separate existence, and space sitting without vibrating seems unlikely. Henry

sledgehammer Posts: 533 Joined: Sep. 2008 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 13 2010,11:56    From Carl Zimmer (NYT/Science): "Hunting Fossil Viruses in Human Genome"  An interesting side plot: apparently placental mammals co-opted a retrovirus to produce a viral protein (syncytin) that is crucial to placental formation. From page 2 of the NYT article: (links can be found in the original) "Mammal genomes contain thousands of stretches of DNA called LINEs. LINEs sometimes make copies of themselves that get reinserted back into the genome. Dr. Tomonaga’s research indicates that LINEs grabbed the genes of borna viruses and pulled them into their genome. The discovery raises the possibility that LINEs have kidnapped other viruses floating near their host’s DNA, like flu viruses. Two of the four copies of the borna virus gene carry crippling mutations. It’s impossible for our cells to make proteins from them. But the other two genes look remarkably intact, perhaps suggesting that our bodies use them for our own benefit. Exactly what they do isn’t clear though. Studies on other captive viruses have revealed that some help ward off viral invasions. One virus protein, syncytin, is essential for our being born at all. “The only place it’s expressed is in the placenta,” Dr. Heidmann said. To understand its function, he and his colleagues disabled the gene in mice. Without syncytin, mice developed deformed placentas, and their embryos died. Syncytin started as a surface protein on retroviruses that fused them to cells. When mammals captured the gene, they used it in the placenta to create a layer of fused cells through which mothers can send nutrients to their embryos. Dr. Heidmann and his colleagues have discovered that over the past 100 million years, mammals have repeatedly harnessed viruses to make syncytin. “Wherever we search for them, we find them,” Dr. Heidmann said. But the syncytin genes we use today may have actually replaced an ancestral one that a virus bequeathed to the very first placental mammals. In fact, that infection may have made the placenta possible in the first place. “It was a major event for animal evolution,” Dr. Heidmann said." Where is the intelligence behind this macro-evolutionary change? None of this would make any sense without common descent, including HGT. ETA: attribution and correction -------------- The majority of the stupid is invincible and guaranteed for all time. The terror of their tyranny is alleviated by their lack of consistency. -A. Einstein  (H/T, JAD) If evolution is true, you could not know that it's true because your brain is nothing but chemicals. ?Think about that. -K. Hovind

dvunkannon Posts: 1377 Joined: June 2008 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 13 2010,14:01    The Scientist is bring a volley of great articles on evolution. New Clues to Y Evolution Are Mutations Really Random? Should Evolutionary Theory Evolve? - Altenberg 16 story! The Maverick Bacterium -------------- I’m referring to evolution, not changes in allele frequencies. - Cornelius Hunter I’m not an evolutionist, I’m a change in allele frequentist! - Nakashima

Quack Posts: 1961 Joined: May 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 13 2010,14:46    What can I say? I read all of them but had to skip most of the fascinating Listeria story. A bit overwhelming and I have no use for it... But great stuff, I wonder if creationists bother reading such articles? -------------- Rocks have no biology.               Robert Byers.

Henry J Posts: 5786 Joined: Mar. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 13 2010,16:39    Quote An interesting side plot: apparently placental mammals co-opted a retrovirus to produce a viral protein Well that's uncommonly descent of those usually pesky viruses, huh? Henry

dvunkannon Posts: 1377 Joined: June 2008 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 14 2010,09:59    Elastic, not plastic species: Frozen plasticity theory and the origin of adaptive evolution in sexually reproducing organisms For extra credit - find the positive reference to JAD!! Since the author is Czech, have we found the real VMartin? -------------- I’m referring to evolution, not changes in allele frequencies. - Cornelius Hunter I’m not an evolutionist, I’m a change in allele frequentist! - Nakashima

Quack Posts: 1961 Joined: May 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 16 2010,07:07    BMC Microbiology   Quote Polar bears living in the pristine Svalbard area of Norway have a low diversity of bacteria in their feces, harboring mostly anaerobic bacteria from the genus Clostridia, and very few ampicillin resistance blaTEM alleles. -------------- Rocks have no biology.               Robert Byers.

Alan Fox Posts: 1556 Joined: Aug. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 16 2010,07:18    Quote (Quack @ Jan. 16 2010,02:07) BMC Microbiology     Quote Polar bears living in the pristine Svalbard area of Norway have a low diversity of bacteria in their feces, harboring mostly anaerobic bacteria from the genus Clostridia, and very few ampicillin resistance blaTEM alleles. I did wonder how the hell you go about collecting fecal samples from polar bears! Quote Bears were caught by remote injection of a dart Palmer Cap-Chur Equipment) containing the drug Zoletil® (Virbac, Carros Cedex, France) fired from a helicopter [41]. Cowards!

fnxtr Posts: 3504 Joined: June 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 16 2010,13:35    [grampa] We never had no fancy-shmancy sleeper darts when I was a boy, no sir! We used to just fist the buggers! Grab a big handful of fewmets, then head for the igloo and hope to outrun the other guy. [/grampa] -------------- "[A] book said there were 5 trillion witnesses. Who am I supposed to believe, 5 trillion witnesses or you? That shit's, like, ironclad. " -- stevestory "Wow, you must be retarded. I said that CO2 does not trap heat. If it did then it would not cool down at night."  Joe G

Henry J Posts: 5786 Joined: Mar. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 16 2010,14:22    Or, how about just taking some polar-oid pictures from a safe distance? Henry

Erasmus, FCD Posts: 6349 Joined: June 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 18 2010,01:22    sometimes you gotta follow them around and pick up the poop 2:15 -------------- You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

fnxtr Posts: 3504 Joined: June 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 18 2010,10:06    Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Jan. 17 2010,23:22) sometimes you gotta follow them around and pick up the poop 2:15 That's even bigger than the Camberwell Carrot! -------------- "[A] book said there were 5 trillion witnesses. Who am I supposed to believe, 5 trillion witnesses or you? That shit's, like, ironclad. " -- stevestory "Wow, you must be retarded. I said that CO2 does not trap heat. If it did then it would not cool down at night."  Joe G

Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 21 2010,20:54    Design? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v....bedded# -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

JLT Posts: 740 Joined: Jan. 2008 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 26 2010,10:48    Floreano D, Keller L (2010) Evolution of Adaptive Behaviour in Robots by Means of Darwinian Selection. PLoS Biol 8(1): e1000292   Quote Ever since Cicero's De Natura Deorum ii.34., humans have been intrigued by the origin and mechanisms underlying complexity in nature. Darwin suggested that adaptation and complexity could evolve by natural selection acting successively on numerous small, heritable modifications. But is this enough? Here, we describe selected studies of experimental evolution with robots to illustrate how the process of natural selection can lead to the evolution of complex traits such as adaptive behaviours. Just a few hundred generations of selection are sufficient to allow robots to evolve collision-free movement, homing, sophisticated predator versus prey strategies, coadaptation of brains and bodies, cooperation, and even altruism. In all cases this occurred via selection in robots controlled by a simple neural network, which mutated randomly. -------------- "Random mutations, if they are truly random, will affect, and potentially damage, any aspect of the organism, [...] Thus, a realistic [computer] simulation [of evolution] would allow the program, OS, and hardware to be affected in a random fashion." GilDodgen, Frilly shirt owner

fnxtr Posts: 3504 Joined: June 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 27 2010,09:34    Quote (Thought Provoker @ Dec. 28 2009,13:58) Hi Fnxtr, I expect Oleg to jump on me with both feet any time now (I say that with all due respect). Therefore, I will try not to make too much a fool out of myself. Sir Roger Penrose wroteThe Road to Reality: A Complete Guide to the Laws of the Universe.  It is around 1000 pages long. Yeah, I just got this from the local library. It makes "The Structure of Evolutionary Theory" look like a Marvel comic. Fins: check! Mask: check! O2: check! Okay, down we go... -------------- "[A] book said there were 5 trillion witnesses. Who am I supposed to believe, 5 trillion witnesses or you? That shit's, like, ironclad. " -- stevestory "Wow, you must be retarded. I said that CO2 does not trap heat. If it did then it would not cool down at night."  Joe G

Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 29 2010,10:08    Coolness! http://www.popsci.com/science....hniques Evolving robots! Wait for the ID spin.. -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

bfish Posts: 267 Joined: Feb. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Jan. 29 2010,14:43    Quote (Richardthughes @ Jan. 29 2010,08:08) Coolness! http://www.popsci.com/science....hniques Evolving robots! Wait for the ID spin.. They're still robots...

Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 04 2010,12:11    This will tripple the mining shifts in Tardistan. http://www.newscientist.com/article....ll=true -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

midwifetoad Posts: 4003 Joined: Mar. 2008 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 04 2010,14:51    Quote (Richardthughes @ Feb. 04 2010,12:11) This will tripple the mining shifts in Tardistan. http://www.newscientist.com/article....ll=true Quote These analogies are telling. Skinner's theory, though once fashionable, is now widely agreed to be unsustainable, largely because Skinner very much overestimated the contribution that the structure of a creature's environment plays in determining what it learns, and correspondingly very much underestimated the contribution of the internal or "endogenous" variables - including, in particular, innate cognitive structure. Actually what Skinner wrote was that operant conditioning builds upon the behavioral traits inherited via biological evolution. But let's not let facts get in the way of a good story. He specifically mentioned that laboratory experiments in conditioning always started with hard-wired behavior appropriate for a species -- pecking for pigeons, bar pressing for rats. I get kind of pissed when this is distorted by pop-science writers. -------------- Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

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