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  Topic: Complexity vs. Information< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
Timothy McDougald



Posts: 1036
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 06 2008,07:46   

Quote
By "lab tested" I mean something that is tested period.  For instance, if two sets of genes are known, and are said to be from a common ancestor, it should be possible to extrapolate the common ancestral gene (and intermediate genes) via computer simulation.  Then you should be able to test the resultant genes for viability by altering and inserting the DNA into the living organisms.


My favorite example (link goes to the pdf)

Here is the abstract:

 
Quote
A morphological or physiological trait may appear multiple times in evolution. At the molecular level, similar protein functions may emerge independently in different lineages. Whether these parallel functional changes are due to parallel amino acid substitutions has been a subject of debate. Here, I address this question using digestive ribonucleases (RNases) of two groups of foregut-fermenting mammals: ruminant artiodactyls and colobine monkeys. The RNase1 gene was duplicated twice in ancestral ruminants at least 40 MYA, and it was also duplicated in the douc langur, an Asian colobine, approximately 4 MYA. After duplication, similar functional changes occurred in the ruminant and monkey enzymes. Interestingly, five amino acid substitutions in ruminant RNases that are known to affect its catalytic activity against double-stranded (ds) RNA did not occur in the monkey enzyme. Rather, a similar functional change in the monkey was caused by a different set of nine substitutions. Site-directed mutagenesis was used to make three of the five ruminant-specific substitutions in the monkey enzyme. Functional assays of these mutants showed that one of the three substitutions has a similar effect in monkeys, the second has a stronger effect, and the third has an opposite effect. These results suggest that (1) an evolutionary problem can have multiple solutions, (2) the same amino acid substitution may have opposite functional effects in homologous proteins, (3) the stochastic processes of mutation and drift play an important role even at functionally important sites, and (4) protein sequences may diverge even when their functions converge.


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Church burning ebola boy

FTK: I Didn't answer your questions because it beats the hell out of me.

PaV: I suppose for me to be pried away from what I do to focus long and hard on that particular problem would take, quite honestly, hundreds of thousands of dollars to begin to pique my interest.

   
dnmlthr



Posts: 565
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 06 2008,08:30   

Weird, where did afarensis' comment go?

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Guess what? I don't give a flying f*ck how "science works" - Ftk

  
Timothy McDougald



Posts: 1036
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 06 2008,09:50   

Quote (dnmlthr @ Sep. 06 2008,08:30)
Weird, where did afarensis' comment go?

Seems to be back now...

Just to follow up, Zhang has done several papers where he recreates ancestral genes and looks at mutations, selection, etc. as have a number of other labs.

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Church burning ebola boy

FTK: I Didn't answer your questions because it beats the hell out of me.

PaV: I suppose for me to be pried away from what I do to focus long and hard on that particular problem would take, quite honestly, hundreds of thousands of dollars to begin to pique my interest.

   
qetzal



Posts: 311
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 06 2008,10:16   

Quote (Daniel Smith @ Sep. 05 2008,18:28)
This is exactly what I've been looking for.  Thank you for posting that qetzal.  I only wish I could read the whole paper.  You say that experiments like these have been done multiple times: if you have any more links to papers such as this (preferably the full paper), I'm interested and would appreciate your posting them.

Thanks again.

You're welcome.

I found this quite quickly at PubMed by searching the phrase "ancestral sequence" (including the quote marks).

Not all the hits are what you want, but many are, and some have free full text links. See the little paper icons to the left of each hit? The ones with a green or orange bar at the top have free full text links.

Try other search phrases or word combos. Try using the Limits tab. You can limit searches to title words, even restrict your search to papers with free full text links if you want.

Also, if you find one reference you like, try using the "Related Articles" link to the right of it.

(Apologies if you're already familiar with PubMed.)

  
Patrickarbuthnot



Posts: 21
Joined: Feb. 2010

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 24 2010,23:53   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Aug. 26 2008,18:14)
Antievolutionists want to confuse and conflate meaning and information. Spetner, Gitt, Truman, and Dembski... all of them want meaning to be folded within whatever sort of "information" they propose.

Shannon's discussion of information explicitly excluded meaning. Algorithmic information theory only cares about one aspect of meaning: what is the shortest program and input that can generate a string?

Critique of Dembski's "complex specified information"

Hello Wesley R. Elsberry,
I have never posted on your site before this should prove to be very interesting.

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Thomas Edison said: “The doctor of the future will give no medicine, but will interest her or his patients in the care of the human frame, in a proper diet, and in the cause and prevention of disease.”

  
Dr.GH



Posts: 2333
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 25 2010,00:15   

Quote (Patrickarbuthnot @ Feb. 24 2010,21:53)
Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Aug. 26 2008,18:14)
Antievolutionists want to confuse and conflate meaning and information. Spetner, Gitt, Truman, and Dembski... all of them want meaning to be folded within whatever sort of "information" they propose.

Shannon's discussion of information explicitly excluded meaning. Algorithmic information theory only cares about one aspect of meaning: what is the shortest program and input that can generate a string?

Critique of Dembski's "complex specified information"

Hello Wesley R. Elsberry,
I have never posted on your site before this should prove to be very interesting.

Well, don't leave us in suspense.

PS, Welcome.

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"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
sledgehammer



Posts: 533
Joined: Sep. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 08 2010,20:23   

Creo Math.  Maybe Dembski can offer a course?
From here
Jonathon Bartlett is giving Nick Matzke a math lesson on how to add bits.  It's hilarious!
Nick:  
Quote
“Even if NS can only add 1 bit of information at a time to a genome, just repeat for millions of years and you’ve generated lots of new information. “

Bartlett:  
Quote
Again, you need to actually take a look at the math.  If natural selection adds 1 bit of information at a time to a genome, and does so each day for 20 billion years, at the end of it you will have 42.7 bits of information (because it is an order-of-magnitude measurement).

Huh???
Bartlett explains:  
Quote
Evolutionists often appeal to the vast age of the universe as justification for their improbable claims.  But the nice thing about mathematics is that you can use it to evaluate claims that would otherwise be incomprehensible.  While it might seem that adding 1 bit of information each day for 20 billion years would certainly add up to something past Dembski’s 500 bits, my trusty calculator calculates it to be 42.7 bits (the calculation is log2(365 * 20000000000) if you want to try it on your calculator).

Lessee, using Bartlett Math

1 bit+1 bit =log2(1+1)=1bit   (1+1=1)

2bits+2bits-log2(2+2)=2 bits  (2+2=2)

now it gets better:
4b +4b = log2(8) = 3

4b+4b=3b !!!! (Evolution destroys information. yay!)

A little math is a dangerous thing

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The majority of the stupid is invincible and guaranteed for all time. The terror of their tyranny is alleviated by their lack of consistency. -A. Einstein  (H/T, JAD)
If evolution is true, you could not know that it's true because your brain is nothing but chemicals. ?Think about that. -K. Hovind

  
fnxtr



Posts: 3504
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 08 2010,21:32   

Quote (sledgehammer @ Mar. 08 2010,18:23)
Creo Math.  Maybe Dembski can offer a course?
From here
Jonathon Bartlett is giving Nick Matzke a math lesson on how to add bits.  It's hilarious!
Nick:  
Quote
“Even if NS can only add 1 bit of information at a time to a genome, just repeat for millions of years and you’ve generated lots of new information. “

Bartlett:  
Quote
Again, you need to actually take a look at the math.  If natural selection adds 1 bit of information at a time to a genome, and does so each day for 20 billion years, at the end of it you will have 42.7 bits of information (because it is an order-of-magnitude measurement).

Huh???
Bartlett explains:  
Quote
Evolutionists often appeal to the vast age of the universe as justification for their improbable claims.  But the nice thing about mathematics is that you can use it to evaluate claims that would otherwise be incomprehensible.  While it might seem that adding 1 bit of information each day for 20 billion years would certainly add up to something past Dembski’s 500 bits, my trusty calculator calculates it to be 42.7 bits (the calculation is log2(365 * 20000000000) if you want to try it on your calculator).

Lessee, using Bartlett Math

1 bit+1 bit =log2(1+1)=1bit   (1+1=1)

2bits+2bits-log2(2+2)=2 bits  (2+2=2)

now it gets better:
4b +4b = log2(8) = 3

4b+4b=3b !!!! (Evolution destroys information. yay!)

A little math is a dangerous thing

What. The. Hell.
?

My jade plant is 25 grams heavier today than yesterday. How many bits of information has it gained?

What complete bullshit.

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"[A] book said there were 5 trillion witnesses. Who am I supposed to believe, 5 trillion witnesses or you? That shit's, like, ironclad. " -- stevestory

"Wow, you must be retarded. I said that CO2 does not trap heat. If it did then it would not cool down at night."  Joe G

  
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