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Daevans Posts: 31 Joined: Feb. 2010 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 21 2010,03:07    Quote (stevestory @ May 31 2006,07:24) For the most part, creationists fall into two camps. Slightly daffy Old Earth Creationists (Dembski, Behe) and batshit crazy Young Earth Creationists (Salvador, AFDave). An exception to the rule is Paul Nelson, a YEC who can actually string two coherent sentences together (one of them may be a lie, but that's beside the point). I don't care how Salvador and AFDave justify their beliefs, they're idiots. But Paul Nelson is not as dumb as they are. I'd like to know how he justifies being a YEC despite all the evidence. I haven't had much luck finding where he defends this. Can anyone point me to where he explains how he can be a YEC? I would disagree with what you said. You stated that  " For the most part, creationists fall into two camps"? Do you think that is a truthful statement? I would say no. You act like it's a conspiracy against the Darwin faction and that isn't the case.  I don't believe evolution is a complete picture or that everything about evolutionary theory has been satisfactorily explained. I would even say from what we know the Genome might hold some of those answers.  Believe it or not the "Flat Earth Theory" is based on the best scientific technology available of THAT day and that was direct observation.   Sorry to disappoint you in your post but I don't buy it. -------------- "You know, the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common: they don't alter their views to fit the facts; they alter the facts to fit their views." — Tom Baker

BWE Posts: 1902 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 21 2010,05:08    Quote (Daevans @ Feb. 21 2010,01:07) Quote (stevestory @ May 31 2006,07:24) For the most part, creationists fall into two camps. Slightly daffy Old Earth Creationists (Dembski, Behe) and batshit crazy Young Earth Creationists (Salvador, AFDave). An exception to the rule is Paul Nelson, a YEC who can actually string two coherent sentences together (one of them may be a lie, but that's beside the point). I don't care how Salvador and AFDave justify their beliefs, they're idiots. But Paul Nelson is not as dumb as they are. I'd like to know how he justifies being a YEC despite all the evidence. I haven't had much luck finding where he defends this. Can anyone point me to where he explains how he can be a YEC? I would disagree with what you said. You stated that  " For the most part, creationists fall into two camps"? Do you think that is a truthful statement? I would say no. You act like it's a conspiracy against the Darwin faction and that isn't the case.  I don't believe evolution is a complete picture or that everything about evolutionary theory has been satisfactorily explained. I would even say from what we know the Genome might hold some of those answers.  Believe it or not the "Flat Earth Theory" is based on the best scientific technology available of THAT day and that was direct observation.   Sorry to disappoint you in your post but I don't buy it. Hi DaEvans. Are you familiar with the theories of Nathan Poe?. -------------- Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered When wished on the morning star Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it Look what it's done so far The Daily Wingnut

Daevans Posts: 31 Joined: Feb. 2010 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 21 2010,05:08    Also your all forgetting about "Professor John A. Davison's work", he is definitely not in either "camps". furthermore the unlikelihood that Darwinian evolution can explain the appearance of the formation of NEW information in the cell.  We need a more scientifically fulfilling mechanism, one that takes in account advances in paleontology, genome analysis, genetics and embryology. The present model simply doesn't meet that standard however a "preexisting genomic mechanism" could. -------------- "You know, the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common: they don't alter their views to fit the facts; they alter the facts to fit their views." — Tom Baker

BWE Posts: 1902 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 21 2010,05:09    Hi Have you heard from Alan Fox lately? -------------- Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered When wished on the morning star Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it Look what it's done so far The Daily Wingnut

Daevans Posts: 31 Joined: Feb. 2010 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 21 2010,05:13    Are you referring to http://www.urbandictionary.com/author.php?author=Nathan+Poe -------------- "You know, the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common: they don't alter their views to fit the facts; they alter the facts to fit their views." — Tom Baker

carlsonjok Posts: 3326 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 21 2010,05:17    Quote (Daevans @ Feb. 21 2010,05:08) Also your all forgetting about "Professor John A. Davison's work", he is definitely not in either "camps". furthermore the unlikelihood that Darwinian evolution can explain the appearance of the formation of NEW information in the cell.  We need a more scientifically fulfilling mechanism, one that takes in account advances in paleontology, genome analysis, genetics and embryology. The present model simply doesn't meet that standard however a "preexisting genomic mechanism" could. You seem like you might have some scientific background.  There are a lot of scientists in a variety of disciplines on this site. It might be helpful to understand what your specific background is, so that information about various subjects can be tailored to your level of familiarity. -------------- It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

BWE Posts: 1902 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 21 2010,05:18    Quote (Daevans @ Feb. 21 2010,03:13) Are you referring to http://www.urbandictionary.com/author.php?author=Nathan+Poe yep. -------------- Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered When wished on the morning star Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it Look what it's done so far The Daily Wingnut

Daevans Posts: 31 Joined: Feb. 2010 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 21 2010,05:30    Hello, sorry I didn't see post. Biology. -------------- "You know, the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common: they don't alter their views to fit the facts; they alter the facts to fit their views." — Tom Baker

Daevans Posts: 31 Joined: Feb. 2010 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 21 2010,05:35    Alan Fox would be Professor Davison. -------------- "You know, the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common: they don't alter their views to fit the facts; they alter the facts to fit their views." — Tom Baker

carlsonjok Posts: 3326 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 21 2010,05:37    Quote (Daevans @ Feb. 21 2010,05:30) Hello, sorry I didn't see post. Biology. Okay.  Could you be a little more specific as to what focus areas within biology and at what level you studied them? -------------- It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

Daevans Posts: 31 Joined: Feb. 2010 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 21 2010,05:43    I am a med student. -------------- "You know, the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common: they don't alter their views to fit the facts; they alter the facts to fit their views." — Tom Baker

Quack Posts: 1961 Joined: May 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 21 2010,05:43    We have to realize what is at stake here: Isn’t it as simple as (IIRC) Kurt Wise says, "The Bible says it, that settles it"? The Gordian knot: The Bible is the Word of God. Jesus saved us from our sins by dying on the cross. He arose from the dead and became Christ. The Gospels are evidence, are they not? His resurrection is evidence we shall be resurrected. That is all evidence that there is an afterlife in Heaven for the faithful. Who wants to sacrifice all that on the altar of science? No hope, just a more or less miserable fourscore years here, and that’s’ that. No harp, no reunion with our loved ones, they’re all gone forever, as we ourselves will be when our time is up. Why should we be good, why not rape, steal and murder? Fuck morals, be a beast. Evolution doesn’t stand much of chance against that. Its’ like you have a $100 million lotto coupon in your pocket and the moment you say RM&NS did it, the ticket is gone. -------------- Rocks have no biology.               Robert Byers.

Daevans Posts: 31 Joined: Feb. 2010 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 21 2010,05:46    Did I mention God? Could you please point that out to me I think I missed it? -------------- "You know, the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common: they don't alter their views to fit the facts; they alter the facts to fit their views." — Tom Baker

Alan Fox Posts: 1556 Joined: Aug. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 21 2010,06:15    Quote (Daevans @ Feb. 21 2010,00:46) Did I mention God? Could you please point that out to me I think I missed it? You mentioned John Davison; that's almost the same thing. John is one true christian, don't you know!

carlsonjok Posts: 3326 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 21 2010,06:27    Quote (Daevans @ Feb. 21 2010,05:46) Did I mention God? Could you please point that out to me I think I missed it? You have to understand that there is a pattern, or trajectory, to the life of an anti-evolutionist here at this site. It goes something like this: Step 1. Hi!  I am just trying to understand evolution!  Can you help me? Step 2. What about this [insert anti-evolution argument thinly disguised as a question]?  I am confused about how evolution explains that. Step 3.  The actual working scientists here explain in detail the evidence disputing the argument in #2.  They try to tailor the message to the person's knowledge level, but the anti-evolutionist is circumspect about what their level of scientific study and understanding is. Step 4.  The anti-evolutionist drops the pretense of being curious and begin debating the point using the exact arguments found in one of the innumerable anti-evolution potboilers even though it is clear they don't have even the slightest understanding of the information that was painstakingly laid out for them in #3. Step 5.  The real working scientists become increasingly frustrated with the resistance to learning exhibited in #4 by a person who has only read one of the eleventy dozen books by Dembski, Meyers, Wells, et al and think they now qualified to overturn the last 150 years of scholarship. Step 6.  These scientists become less willing to share their time and the knowledge that took them a lifetime of painstaking study to acquire with someone who exhibits such willful ignorance.  Some get angry out of the frustration. Others give up and engage in mockery. Step 7.  LOLCats! Step 8.  The anti-evolutionist says "You guys are mean!", throws out some version of Pascal's Wager, and flounces out. So far, my friend, you have successfully gotten through Step 1 and 2.  And I am trying to help you through Step 3, but you are being rather vague. So, in answer to your question, you didn't mention God.......yet.  And maybe you won't.   But you would be the first. Edited by Lou FCD on Feb. 21 2010,18:19 -------------- It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

Daevans Posts: 31 Joined: Feb. 2010 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 21 2010,06:32    boy, that's a cop out. -------------- "You know, the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common: they don't alter their views to fit the facts; they alter the facts to fit their views." — Tom Baker

Daevans Posts: 31 Joined: Feb. 2010 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 21 2010,06:34    I just saw your reply carlsonjok I will reply on Monday I have to get some sleep. Thanks -------------- "You know, the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common: they don't alter their views to fit the facts; they alter the facts to fit their views." — Tom Baker

carlsonjok Posts: 3326 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 21 2010,06:38    Quote (Daevans @ Feb. 21 2010,06:32) boy, that's a cop out. You'll need to learn how to use the quote button in the upper right hand corner of the comment you are responding to. Because I have no idea who you are responding to, me or Alan. EDIT:  The rest of my comment was purged because I though our new friend was responding to me. -------------- It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

Daevans Posts: 31 Joined: Feb. 2010 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 21 2010,06:43    carlsonjok, To accept ANY theory of such import without examining it and accepting its faults and inexactitude is irresponsible. I will continue this with you on Monday. -------------- "You know, the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common: they don't alter their views to fit the facts; they alter the facts to fit their views." — Tom Baker

Daevans Posts: 31 Joined: Feb. 2010 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 21 2010,06:44    Quote (carlsonjok @ Feb. 21 2010,06:38) Quote (Daevans @ Feb. 21 2010,06:32) boy, that's a cop out. You'll need to learn how to use the quote button in the upper right hand corner of the comment you are responding to. Because I have no idea who you are responding to, me or Alan. EDIT:  The rest of my comment was purged because I though our new friend was responding to me. Sorry my first day posting. -------------- "You know, the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common: they don't alter their views to fit the facts; they alter the facts to fit their views." — Tom Baker

Daevans Posts: 31 Joined: Feb. 2010 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 21 2010,06:47    Quote (Alan Fox @ Feb. 21 2010,06:15) Quote (Daevans @ Feb. 21 2010,00:46) Did I mention God? Could you please point that out to me I think I missed it? You mentioned John Davison; that's almost the same thing. John is one true christian, don't you know! boy, that's a cop out. -------------- "You know, the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common: they don't alter their views to fit the facts; they alter the facts to fit their views." — Tom Baker

Albatrossity2 Posts: 2780 Joined: Mar. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 21 2010,06:49    Quote (Daevans @ Feb. 21 2010,03:07)  I don't believe evolution is a complete picture or that everything about evolutionary theory has been satisfactorily explained. And no reputable scientist would assert that. So it's a strawman. Good luck with med school. -------------- Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind Has been obligated from the beginning To create an ordered universe As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.                         - Pattiann Rogers

carlsonjok Posts: 3326 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 21 2010,06:51    Quote (Daevans @ Feb. 21 2010,06:43) carlsonjok, To accept ANY theory of such import without examining it and accepting its faults and inexactitude is irresponsible. I will continue this with you on Monday. Actually, I am just your humble tour guide to navigate you through the building. The restrooms are over there -----> There will be real scientists to explain the exhibits to you.  Don't forget to visit the gift shop on the way out.  BTW, when you see words underlined. That is a hyperlink. Follow it. -------------- It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

Daevans Posts: 31 Joined: Feb. 2010 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 21 2010,06:54    Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Feb. 21 2010,06:49) Quote (Daevans @ Feb. 21 2010,03:07)  I don't believe evolution is a complete picture or that everything about evolutionary theory has been satisfactorily explained. And no reputable scientist would assert that. So it's a strawman. Good luck with med school. I read your post. You comments have so much straw you could play the scarecrow in the Wizard of Oz. -------------- "You know, the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common: they don't alter their views to fit the facts; they alter the facts to fit their views." — Tom Baker

carlsonjok Posts: 3326 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 21 2010,06:55    Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Feb. 21 2010,06:49) Quote (Daevans @ Feb. 21 2010,03:07)  I don't believe evolution is a complete picture or that everything about evolutionary theory has been satisfactorily explained. And no reputable scientist would assert that. So it's a strawman. Good luck with med school. Giving up so early, Albie? -------------- It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

Daevans Posts: 31 Joined: Feb. 2010 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 21 2010,06:55    Quote (carlsonjok @ Feb. 21 2010,06:51) Quote (Daevans @ Feb. 21 2010,06:43) carlsonjok, To accept ANY theory of such import without examining it and accepting its faults and inexactitude is irresponsible. I will continue this with you on Monday. Actually, I am just your humble tour guide to navigate you through the building. The restrooms are over there -----> There will be real scientists to explain the exhibits to you.  Don't forget to visit the gift shop on the way out.  BTW, when you see words underlined. That is a hyperlink. Follow it. Thanks for being such a gracious host. -------------- "You know, the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common: they don't alter their views to fit the facts; they alter the facts to fit their views." — Tom Baker

carlsonjok Posts: 3326 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 21 2010,06:58    Quote (Daevans @ Feb. 21 2010,06:54) Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Feb. 21 2010,06:49) Quote (Daevans @ Feb. 21 2010,03:07)  I don't believe evolution is a complete picture or that everything about evolutionary theory has been satisfactorily explained. And no reputable scientist would assert that. So it's a strawman. Good luck with med school. I read your post. You comments have so much straw you could play the scarecrow in the Wizard of Oz. Ooo, bad form. You have skipped ahead to Step 4 and we haven't even started step 3.   Gonna have to walk you back 10 yards for illegal procedure. -------------- It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

Albatrossity2 Posts: 2780 Joined: Mar. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 21 2010,06:59    Quote (Daevans @ Feb. 21 2010,06:54) Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Feb. 21 2010,06:49) Quote (Daevans @ Feb. 21 2010,03:07)  I don't believe evolution is a complete picture or that everything about evolutionary theory has been satisfactorily explained. And no reputable scientist would assert that. So it's a strawman. Good luck with med school. I read your post. You comments have so much straw you could play the scarecrow in the Wizard of Oz. Right. So support your assertion that one side claims that "evolution is a complete picture" or that "evolutionary theory has been satisfactorily explained". Evidence, please. thanks -------------- Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind Has been obligated from the beginning To create an ordered universe As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.                         - Pattiann Rogers

Daevans Posts: 31 Joined: Feb. 2010 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 21 2010,07:00    Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Feb. 21 2010,06:49) Quote (Daevans @ Feb. 21 2010,03:07)  I don't believe evolution is a complete picture or that everything about evolutionary theory has been satisfactorily explained. And no reputable scientist would assert that. So it's a strawman. Good luck with med school. http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/26858.php "And no reputable scientist would assert that." p -------------- "You know, the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common: they don't alter their views to fit the facts; they alter the facts to fit their views." — Tom Baker

Albatrossity2 Posts: 2780 Joined: Mar. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 21 2010,07:02    Quote (Daevans @ Feb. 21 2010,07:00) Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Feb. 21 2010,06:49) Quote (Daevans @ Feb. 21 2010,03:07)  I don't believe evolution is a complete picture or that everything about evolutionary theory has been satisfactorily explained. And no reputable scientist would assert that. So it's a strawman. Good luck with med school. http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/26858.php "And no reputable scientist would assert that." p That's odd. I didn't find any statement in that link about evolutionary theory being complete. How surprising. -------------- Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind Has been obligated from the beginning To create an ordered universe As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.                         - Pattiann Rogers

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