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Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2008,00:23   

Quote
I've been asked several times why scientists who support Intelligent Design don't publish in ID journals. Personally, I wonder what the point would be in doing so? The scientists who ask this question are the same ones who have claimed that creationists MUST publish in mainstream journals if they want to be taken seriously. If ID research is not published in “mainstream” journals, the scientific establishment will merely deem it pseudoscience just as it has done with creation science.

Intelligent Design is *not* religion, hence the inference *should* be published in mainstream scientific journals. Just recently, a lab had been established at Baylor University where it appeared that Intelligent Design would be given consideration in the research that was being applied. Professor Robert Marks headed the "Evolutionary Informatics" lab and had begun collaboration with William Dembski on several papers. Though, as we have seen happen in the past, censorship of this endeavour took root, and the plug was quickly pulled. Par for the course...


Nope. Sorry, context didn't help at all or change anything. It's still incredibly stoopid.

[I'm starting to wonder if FTK knows what 'quote mine' actually *means*.]

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2008,02:51   

Quote (Ftk @ April 15 2008,00:36)
Quote (stevestory @ April 14 2008,18:14)
If she doesn't want to continue talking here, but she keeps talking at her blog, I don't think we'll mind much. The whole reason we talk about her blog is how amazingly bad it is.

Like this bit

 
Quote

I've been asked several times why scientists who support Intelligent Design don't publish in ID journals. Personally, I wonder what the point would be in doing so?


which I would nominate for Stupidest Thing Ever Said About Science, Ever.

PURE QUOTE MINING.  Get a life, Steve.

FTK I would like to thank you very much indeed. I'm not sure I should tell you why, but just thanks, I shall raise a drink in your honour for this!

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2008,07:44   

[Graffiti moved to Bathroom Wall. -Admin]

This is what you guys consider plagerism?

My goodness you're some desperate folks.

--------------
"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2008,08:34   

[Graffiti moved to Bathroom Wall. -Admin]

Well, good luck with that.  I don't think you have a leg to stand on, but if you could get 'ol JJ to try your case again, you might stand a sliver of a chance. :)

--------------
"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2008,08:44   

Hey Ftk,

Thanks for showing up.  While you're around, take a whack at this:
Quote
1.  Is it okay for ID proponents to post personal information of the internet?   NO

2.  Do you think that Wes and/or steve would not remove your personal information from the board if someone posted it?  
No, I believe they would....that is why I was giving them the warning that someone may be listing personal information about me.


3.  Do you think that the Baylor curators and other officials post their home addresses and phone numbers to the internet?   I have not checked into that so I do not know.  I would assume that most do not.

4.  Why re you back posting here at AtBC?   I believe I answered that on this page or the last page.  checking the previous 3 pages, there is no answer from Ftk as regards this question.  There are however, many complaints about having to answer questions and the ridiculous expectations of such. –blipey

5.  How does Behe know what is in a group of books without ever having read the books?   !!! This question is ridiculous.  Obviously, he wouldn't, and I'd have to ask Behe if he was every allowed to go through every book and article one by one and make two separate piles of what he had and had not read.  But, I tried desperately to explain in an earlier discussion that just because we have theories about how something *may have* occurred, that does not mean that all the questions have been answered nor should they be regarded as "fact". I’m counting this one as answered because of the first sentence “obviously, he wouldn’t”.  That being said, the commentary after that phrase proves that she’ll never be able to answer question 6.  perhaps this is why she stopped answering questions. –blipey

6.  What is the point of the Behe/unread books discussion?

7.  According to ID Theory, how did the immune system develop?

8.  What is gained by jettisoning ToE and saying God did it?

9.  In the light of a science teacher teaching that the study of beetles is not a scientific effort and possibly that spiders evolved from insects (if evolution were true), how is ID theory driving kids toward science?

10. Why don't IDers pursue RESEARCH GRANTS, from the Templeton Foundation, for example?

11. Are you afraid to examine the sequence evidence for ToE?

11A.  Added.  Do you understand what sequence evidence is?

12. Where did Albatrossity2 claim that his students were religious freaks?

12A.  Added.  Where did blipey claim that his nephew's teacher was "a source of evil"?

13. Why don't IDers publish in PCID?

14. Why hasn't PCID been published in over two years?

15. Do you believe that Darwinists have kept PCID from being published?

16. How?

17. Can ID be called a theory when it hasn't made even one prediction?

18. Yes or no: ID wouldn't benefit from publishing any articles, anywhere.

19. Yes or no: Your children should be taught the historical insights of the Bhagavad Gita?

20. What sort of Waterloo can we look forward to on February 8, 2008?

Interesting side note. Just came across this comment back on page 102 where you berate people for not having read the pertinent books.  Which begs several more questions I'll put here.  Why is reading material important?  Do you think it might have been important for Behe to read some books before commenting on them?  Have you read the textbook that Albatrossity2 sent you?  Have you got that list of peer reviewed articles you've read ready to go?  Are you seriously arguing that we should read books and that IDers don't have to?

21. What are IDers doing to garner respect?

22. Given that you believe ID is science because of "design inference", why is ToE not science because all it has is inference?

23. Can any human being know what is contained in a book without having read the book?

24. If everyone died in the Flood, who wrote all the different stories down?

25. What year was the Flood over? 2300 BC, answer provided for Ftk by blipey

26. What year was the height of the Egyptian Empire? 2030 BC, answer provided by blipey

27. What was the population of the world in that year? 30,000,000, answer provided by blipey

28. How did 8 people (6 really) make that many people?


29. Is Dembski a creationist?

30. How would monogamous gays destroy heterosexual marriage?

31. How did Koalas get from Ararat to Australia?

32. Do you believe that the FLOOD is a scientifically tenable idea?  yes

33. Are the people who run Baylor Darwin Police?

34. Are those same people Baptist?

35. What does this mean?

36. Given that HIV cannot have evolved (Behe), which of the 8 (6 really) people on the ark were carrying HIV?

37. Do you think that gravity is “just a theory” and therefore should be “taught critically” (to use the ID phrase)?

38. If not, what makes the details we don’t know about gravity different from the details we don’t know about evolution?


Buh-bye, now.

--------------
But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
PTET



Posts: 133
Joined: Jan. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2008,08:49   

Hey Ftk

I wanted to congratulate you on this comment you made at UD...

 
Quote
Anyone who actually considers themselves a “theistic evolutionist” isn’t going to be swayed by anything. “Science” always comes first for them…they adapt their philosophical leanings and everything else to match up with the popular “scientific consensus”.


That is without a doubt the most hypocritically, dishonest and moronic thing I have read today. And I've been reading UD.

Well done.

I look forward to the day when you admit that your entire existence is a joke designed to show the world that creationists are ignorant, bigotted fuckwits.

Keep up the good work.

--------------
"It’s not worth the effort to prove the obvious. Ridiculous ideas don’t deserve our time.
Even the attempt to formulate ID is a generous accommodation." - ScottAndrews

   
guthrie



Posts: 696
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2008,09:18   

Quote (guthrie @ April 14 2008,16:22)
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ April 14 2008,12:57)
It means we have exactly the same chances of finding out VM's alternative to the Neodarwinismus now as we would have if he had never been banned.

So a bit like the opposite of Schroedingers cat?  No matter whether we open the box or not, we know it is dead?


Hah, brilliant.  Cheers!

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2008,09:23   

SS I reckon I don't know what i would do for barring were i being purgatoriated in chapel hole.  i know we used to go down 15 501 to the Haw River and get drunk up there on those rope swings.  You ever been there?

HAHA TAKE THIS MICHAEL SHERMER MY BOY YOU PANSY  YOUR NO KIRK COMERON


Ooooh No he didnt

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2008,09:54   

Fractal Let them eat cake

HSK is a tard

that would get you knocked right the fuck out where i come from.  by someone who works.

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Kristine



Posts: 3061
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2008,11:18   

Quote (Ftk @ April 15 2008,06:44)
[Graffiti moved to Bathroom Wall. -Admin]<br/><br/>This is what you guys consider plagerism?

My goodness you're some desperate folks.

Okay, so why did they portray the movement of a paramecium across a microtubule in the exact same way as the Harvard video, when they could have shown one of at least 10 other ways?

--------------
Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2008,12:17   

Quote
so why did they portray the movement of a paramecium


At that rate somebody could get flagellated!

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2008,12:19   

Quote (Ftk @ April 15 2008,08:34)
'ol

LOL?

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
BWE



Posts: 1902
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2008,12:34   

Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,April 15 2008,09:23)
SS I reckon I don't know what i would do for barring were i being purgatoriated in chapel hole.  i know we used to go down 15 501 to the Haw River and get drunk up there on those rope swings.  You ever been there?

HAHA TAKE THIS MICHAEL SHERMER MY BOY YOU PANSY  YOUR NO KIRK COMERON


Ooooh No he didnt

from your link:
Quote
So Michael, you will have a choice between the two beliefs of the origin of mankind. There is no fence to sit on. Was it evolution or were we intelligently designed by God? You can either rest in the evidence of the God you know personally, or you can turn your back on Him (and His gift of everlasting life), and blindly have faith in an unscientific theory. And why would an intelligent person do that? However, the choice is yours son.    


I especially love the parenthetic phrase. Kind of an odd thing to be an aside, no?

Also, I chuckled over this gem (my bolding):
Quote
They will try and sidetrack you by talking about moths being stuck to trees, vestigial organs, mutations, bipedalism and mitochondrial DNA. Or they will maintain that there is something called "observed speciation," or try and dazzle you with names like Sinosauropteryx and Ambulocetur and other pseudo-intellectualisms.Then they will say that they aren’t experts, and use words like “maybe, possibly, perhaps, probably.” When they say that science has the proof, somewhere, push it. Demand evidence like your life depended on it. Tell them that you want to use your God-given brain to make a rational decision regarding evolution. You want to know if it's true. Stay open-minded.


--------------
Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered
When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it
Look what it's done so far

The Daily Wingnut

   
wetlabmonkey



Posts: 7
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2008,15:26   

Quote (Ftk @ April 15 2008,08:34)
[Graffiti moved to Bathroom Wall. -Admin]<br/><br/>Well, good luck with that.  I don't think you have a leg to stand on, but if you could get 'ol JJ to try your case again, you might stand a sliver of a chance. :)

You think that a religious, conservative judge picked by George W. Bush is obviously in the pocket of evolutionists? Just who is left on your side then?

  
khan



Posts: 1554
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2008,16:19   

Is anyone else irritated by 'try and' when it should be 'try to'?

--------------
"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

Frequency is just the plural of wavelength...
-JoeG

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2008,16:36   

Quote (khan @ April 15 2008,16:19)
Is anyone else irritated by 'try and' when it should be 'tried to'?

I try and not be.

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2008,16:52   

Quote (khan @ April 15 2008,16:19)
Is anyone else irritated by 'try and' when it should be 'try to'?

What's more important is that a preposition is a really bad word to end a sentence with.

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
JohnW



Posts: 3217
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2008,16:59   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ April 15 2008,14:52)
Quote (khan @ April 15 2008,16:19)
Is anyone else irritated by 'try and' when it should be 'try to'?

What's more important is that a preposition is a really bad word to end a sentence with.

Those are things I can try and put up with.  At least no-ones misusing apostophe's.

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Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4991
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2008,17:30   

Testing...

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4991
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2008,17:36   

test 2

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2008,17:51   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ April 15 2008,18:30)
Testing...

D-

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2008,17:52   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ April 15 2008,18:36)
test 2

Much better.

B+

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2008,18:40   

[URL=http://www.uncommondescent.com/expelled/expelled-producers-respond-to-dawkins-bolinsky-xvivo-etc-regarding-copyright-of-its-animat

ion/]Tee Hee[/URL].

You people need to seek professional help...(and by that I don't mean a good legal team....LOL!;)  :D

--------------
"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2008,19:13   

FtK gives legal advice! If it all goes south for you FtK. You've a lifetime of crow to eat right here.

Seen this about the dishonesty institute, FtK?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v....rl=http

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2008,20:27   

Your Youtube dude states that the dissent from Darwin list is a ”List of Scientists Rejecting Evolution- Do they really?”

Clearly he has absolutely no clue what the list has even been compiled for.  I can’t imagine *anyone* “rejects evolution”.  That would be ridiculous.

Here’s what the list of scientific dissent actually states:

   
Quote
Public TV programs, educational policy statements, and science textbooks have asserted that Darwin’s theory of evolution fully explains the complexity of living things. The public has been assured, most recently by spokespersons for PBS’s Evolution series, that “all known scientific evidence supports [Darwinian] evolution” as does “virtually every reputable scientist in the world.”

The following scientists dispute the first claim and stand as living testimony in contradiction to the second. There is scientific dissent to Darwinism. It deserves to be heard.


He also addressed whether they reject common descent or not.  Irrelevant.  Behe doesn’t reject common descent, and I’m sure there are others that don’t either.  

He claims that “many” of the signers had been asked to be removed seven years ago.  I have an extremely hard time believing that they wouldn’t press that issue and get their name off the list.  Hearsay - no evidence.  Also, depending on how many Internet stalkers there are (like this particular guy), I’d certainly consider whether I should get my name off that list.  Sheesh...

He also took people off the list that he couldn’t contact....?  The moron even seems to be saying that Behe should be taken off the list because he doesn't reject common descent...LOL.  Dude is *clueless*.

Rich, do you actually have a clue what the DI fellows reject?  It’s certainly not “evolution” and ID doesn’t reject common descent either.  It questions whether Darwinism can fully explain the complexity of all living things.  Can the mechanisms of evolution *alone* account for everything we observe in nature today?  That is the question.

This guy gives virtually no evidence of his claims.  He starts picking people off the list at will and only provides about 3 email responses that supposedly came from these 3 individuals claiming they don't want to be included on the list.  One of the emails he included was from Behe!  Is he insane?

Rich, if you take this guy at his word, I just really feel sorry for you.  In fact, this tells me a lot about your gullibility.

--------------
"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
Reginald Beasley



Posts: 31
Joined: April 2008

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2008,20:35   

Quote (Ftk @ April 15 2008,20:27)
Your Youtube dude states that the dissent from Darwin list is a ”List of Scientists Rejecting Evolution- Do they really?”

Clearly he has absolutely no clue what the list has even been compiled for.  I can’t imagine *anyone* “rejects evolution”.  That would be ridiculous.

Here’s what the list of scientific dissent actually states:

   
Quote
Public TV programs, educational policy statements, and science textbooks have asserted that Darwin’s theory of evolution fully explains the complexity of living things. The public has been assured, most recently by spokespersons for PBS’s Evolution series, that “all known scientific evidence supports [Darwinian] evolution” as does “virtually every reputable scientist in the world.”

The following scientists dispute the first claim and stand as living testimony in contradiction to the second. There is scientific dissent to Darwinism. It deserves to be heard.


He also addressed whether they reject common descent or not.  Irrelevant.  Behe doesn’t reject common descent, and I’m sure there are others that don’t either.  

He claims that “many” of the signers had been asked to be removed seven years ago.  I have an extremely hard time believing that they wouldn’t press that issue and get their name off the list.  Hearsay - no evidence.  Also, depending on how many Internet stalkers there are (like this particular guy), I’d certainly consider whether I should get my name off that list.  Sheesh...

He also took people off the list that he couldn’t contact....?  The moron even seems to be saying that Behe should be taken off the list because he doesn't reject common descent...LOL.  Dude is *clueless*.

Rich, do you actually have a clue what the DI fellows reject?  It’s certainly not “evolution” and ID doesn’t reject common descent either.  It questions whether Darwinism can fully explain the complexity of all living things.  Can the mechanisms of evolution *alone* account for everything we observe in nature today?  That is the question.

This guy gives virtually no evidence of his claims.  He starts picking people off the list at will and only provides about 3 email responses that supposedly came from these 3 individuals claiming they don't want to be included on the list.  One of the emails he included was from Behe!  Is he insane?

Rich, if you take this guy at his word, I just really feel sorry for you.  In fact, this tells me a lot about your gullibility.

ftk,
 how do you address the fact from the end of the video pointing to the fact that even if all the scientists on the list mattered, it was still less than 1% of all the scientists in America alone?

Why are you ignoring that?


Also, for my own personal curiosity - which is the more majestic God, the one who creates the Universe over billions of years through a set of natural laws or one that you have to force into a 6000 year box?

Is it good theology to say that God is completely comprehensible?

I know your track records with questions so I only expect a response to the first.

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2008,21:05   

The Flyboys handled the Caps and "Alexander the Not as Great as Everyone Blabs" handily at 6-3.

I'm half-lit and happy.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2008,21:21   

Quote
how do you address the fact from the end of the video pointing to the fact that even if all the scientists on the list mattered, it was still less than 1% of all the scientists in America alone?

Why are you ignoring that?


I’m not ignoring that.  My personal opinion is that the *majority* scientists have *no* clue what ID entails...much like the maker of the youtube clip (and Rich apparently - though he isn't a scientist).

BTW, I see that you immediately ask me another question, yet you don’t address the blatant dishonesty (or pure ignorance) of the maker of the clip.  Great tactic to overlook the idiotic claims the guy makes.

   
Quote
Also, for my own personal curiosity - which is the more majestic God, the one who creates the Universe over billions of years through a set of natural laws or one that you have to force into a 6000 year box?


Are you kidding me?  When I consider the immense complexity in nature today, in whatever manner God chose to design it, it is obviously more majestic than any human mind will ever be able to completely comprehend.  Your question seems absolutely ridiculous to me.  Sorry.

   
Quote
Is it good theology to say that God is completely comprehensible?


?????  Would you mind telling me where I or any ID proponent said that “God is completely comprehensible”?  You simply can’t be serious with this particular question.  Of course, it’s not good theology....no one can know the mind of God.

   
Quote
I know your track records with questions so I only expect a response to the first.


It always amazing me that every time I post an answer to a question, someone immediately turns around and states that I never answer questions and asks another.  Do you have any idea how asinine you look when you do that?

--------------
"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2008,21:35   

Quote (Lou FCD @ April 15 2008,21:05)
The Flyboys handled the Caps and "Alexander the Not as Great as Everyone Blabs" handily at 6-3.

I'm half-lit and happy.

So am I*, but you are still not making a lick of sense, boy.

* It is nice being in a state where you can by 6.0% beer in a grocery store and cold to boot**!

** Unfortunately, I head home tomorrow.

--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
1of63



Posts: 126
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2008,23:24   

Okay, how long before Ftk flounces off in high dudgeon?

Again

Swearing never to return.

Again

--------------
I set expectations at zero, and FL limbos right under them. - Tracy P. Hamilton

  
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