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  Topic: A Separate Thread for Gary Gaulin, As big as the poop that does not look< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
GaryGaulin



Posts: 5385
Joined: Oct. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 20 2014,16:34   

Quote (N.Wells @ Aug. 19 2014,09:27)
While we are posting relevant diagrams, from http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyng....-genome


The answer is as incomplete and contradictory as I expected. But it's good enough to make your crowd look smart, to a general public that does not know how primitive and behind the times in science the answer actually is.

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The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.

   
JohnW



Posts: 3217
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 20 2014,17:04   

Quote (GaryGaulin @ Aug. 20 2014,14:34)
The answer is as incomplete and contradictory as I expected. But it's good enough to make your crowd look smart, to a general public that does not know how primitive and behind the times in science the answer actually is.

Oh, do enlighten me and my fellow behind-the-times primitives, Gary!  Why do almost all cells have the complete genome?

--------------
Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
NoName



Posts: 2729
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 20 2014,17:06   

Quote (GaryGaulin @ Aug. 20 2014,17:34)
Quote (N.Wells @ Aug. 19 2014,09:27)
While we are posting relevant diagrams, from http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyng....-genome


The answer is as incomplete and contradictory as I expected. But it's good enough to make your crowd look smart, to a general public that does not know how primitive and behind the times in science the answer actually is.

There's a big part of your problem right there.
You still don't understand the purpose or meaning, or relationship to science, of data.
Quelle surprise.

As to the allegations that the data is contradictory, I defy you to identify a single contradiction in the data.
Put up or shut up little man.

  
GaryGaulin



Posts: 5385
Joined: Oct. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 20 2014,17:56   

Quote (JohnW @ Aug. 20 2014,17:04)
Quote (GaryGaulin @ Aug. 20 2014,14:34)
The answer is as incomplete and contradictory as I expected. But it's good enough to make your crowd look smart, to a general public that does not know how primitive and behind the times in science the answer actually is.

Oh, do enlighten me and my fellow behind-the-times primitives, Gary!  Why do almost all cells have the complete genome?

Do your own homework.

But in case you need a clue as to why many cells do in fact eliminate much of their genome can be found in this video, especially around 2 minutes in:

https://www.ted.com/talks...._brains

--------------
The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.

   
JohnW



Posts: 3217
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 20 2014,18:07   

Quote (GaryGaulin @ Aug. 20 2014,15:56)
Do your own homework.

Lack of clue duly noted, Gary.

--------------
Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
GaryGaulin



Posts: 5385
Joined: Oct. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 20 2014,18:22   

Another clue:

http://www.pnas.org/content....87.full

Quote
Consequently, nature has implemented ingenious solutions in the properties and the arrangement of structures and cell assemblies that light has to pass for normal physiological functioning. The lens body in vertebrate eyes, for instance, consists of elongated fiber cells. These cells do not only display a very regular oval or hexagonal cross-section, a smooth surface, and a regular distribution, they even lose most of their organelles during differentiation, including the cell nucleus (3).


--------------
The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.

   
GaryGaulin



Posts: 5385
Joined: Oct. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 20 2014,18:47   

And:

HOW RED BLOOD CELLS NUKE THEIR NUCLEI

All are welcome to join the fun of finding many more examples that show why PZ and other evolutionary biologists should not even be attempting genetic related questions like "Why do all cells have the complete genome?"

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The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.

   
NoName



Posts: 2729
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 20 2014,19:01   

Poor Gary.. Still pretending he understands cell biology.
Still pretending he understands the first thing about genetics. Personally, I don't believe he could spell DNA -- I think he has to copy/paste it.
But the funniest thing of all is his pretense to have an explanation for cells, genes, etc.

So, Gary, if intelligence is pervasive, two questions:
what role does it play in the formation of water?
and
why is it conspicuously absent from you and your output?

  
GaryGaulin



Posts: 5385
Joined: Oct. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 20 2014,19:05   

This is another reply that is being flagged in order to censor it from the NCSE blog. I'm posting a backup copy in this forum, to link to from there:

Quote
Steve, I found a detail example of the theory I was talking about in my earlier comment. See "Chapter 2. Theory of Operation" that starts on page 17.

http://ww1.microchip.com/downloa....95B.pdf

I likewise wrote a Theory of Operation for a computer simulated model for living things that works the same way as the living genomes inside cells that they designed, which reproduce to stay going through time along with genome level (in cognitive science called) learning. At some point the molecular genomes are the "intelligent cause" of the intelligence that makes some cells intelligent enough to hunt like an animal and/or form colonies (organs) of a human where neurons wire up a brain that has the same systematics that make cells and genomes intelligent. The upper levels (cells and multicellular animals with intelligent brains) have shorter lifespans than genomes that stay going for billions of years therefore their learning starts at birth then through one lifetime (up to a little over 100 years for us while some of our cells must continually replace themselves).

Nature is designed by the behavior of matter, which can be modeled the same way but without Guess or Confidence in the circuit hence behavior of matter does not need to be intelligent to create intelligence. Behavior of matter just needs what causes consciousness (ability to know we exist) for our intelligence to also be conscious (even though an intelligence does not need to be conscious of itself existing for the intelligence to exist).

http://ncse.com/blog.......0375976
http://ncse.com/blog.......2010027

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The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.

   
GaryGaulin



Posts: 5385
Joined: Oct. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 20 2014,19:27   

Also backing up this one for:

http://ncse.com/blog.......1128109

Quote
Gary Gaulin  Steve Bowden • 2 hours ago

Evolutionary Algorithms (and traditional Genetic Algorithms) are only for modeling "evolution" by natural selection, not living things. Living things have their own brain and select their own friends and partners while some live a long time and some kill themselves along the way. But in a Darwinian model code must be added that unnaturally selects partners. How long each lives is determined by a timer (or other artificial method) and along with the millions of other variables (to fake) the programmer is forced to play God . You end up with a zombie-world of brainless and essentially dead things, which is fine for designing an industrial product like a fan or turbine but not biological systems with complex behaviors.

Where modeling wildflowers the difference would be between an artificial flower made of cloth or paper, and real wildflowers that were grown in a virtual greenhouse inside your computer. You'll have to wait for them to grow and reproduce on their own, instead of artificial flowers magically popping in and out of existence while timers and a "fitness function" controls which ones reproduce, then offspring pop into the environment, wherever you decide to place them (instead of as in reality happening on its own).

I explain a modeling method that does not leave out scientifically vital details the Darwinian model is unable to account for, cannot model. Regardless of what you have been led to believe it actually is the most biologically accurate modeling method known to science.


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The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.

   
N.Wells



Posts: 1836
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 20 2014,19:31   

Quote (GaryGaulin @ Aug. 20 2014,17:56)
 
Quote (JohnW @ Aug. 20 2014,17:04)
   
Quote (GaryGaulin @ Aug. 20 2014,14:34)
The answer is as incomplete and contradictory as I expected. But it's good enough to make your crowd look smart, to a general public that does not know how primitive and behind the times in science the answer actually is.

Oh, do enlighten me and my fellow behind-the-times primitives, Gary!  Why do almost all cells have the complete genome?

Do your own homework.

But in case you need a clue as to why many cells do in fact eliminate much of their genome can be found in this video, especially around 2 minutes in:

https://www.ted.com/talks......_brains

Speaking of completely clueless, did you read any of that?  Although there are some instances of loss of parts of the genome (commentators mention trypanosomes, lampreys, and gall midges as providing some examples, and PZ mentions immunoglobin production and the CRISPR system in bacteria), "most cells" don't eliminate any of their genome, let alone "much" of it.

 
Quote
By the way, not all cells carry the complete genome: there are also a few cases where the DNA of an organism is modified — the CRISPR system in bacteria, and the somatic recombination system used in vertebrates to generate diverse immunoglobulins. In both of those cases, though, it’s not a mechanism to cut away unused DNA. It’s a specialized process to create variation during an organism’s lifetime to cope with environmental challenges.


Scientists are beginning to find more instances of partial genome reduction (e.g., Smith, J.J., Baker, C., Eichler, E.E., and Amemiya, C.T., 2012, Genetic consequences of programmed genome rearrangement. Curr. Biol. 22, 1524–1529.), but nonetheless standard behavior is to silence or suppress genes but not to lose them.


Tunicates digesting their brains and eye lens cells getting rid of organelles do not constitute removal of their genome.

  
GaryGaulin



Posts: 5385
Joined: Oct. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 20 2014,19:57   

Quote (N.Wells @ Aug. 20 2014,19:31)
Quote (GaryGaulin @ Aug. 20 2014,17:56)
 
Quote (JohnW @ Aug. 20 2014,17:04)
 
Quote (GaryGaulin @ Aug. 20 2014,14:34)
The answer is as incomplete and contradictory as I expected. But it's good enough to make your crowd look smart, to a general public that does not know how primitive and behind the times in science the answer actually is.

Oh, do enlighten me and my fellow behind-the-times primitives, Gary!  Why do almost all cells have the complete genome?

Do your own homework.

But in case you need a clue as to why many cells do in fact eliminate much of their genome can be found in this video, especially around 2 minutes in:

https://www.ted.com/talks......_brains

Did you read any of that?  Although there are some instances of loss of parts of the genome (commentators mention trypanosomes, lampreys, and gall midges as providing some examples, and PZ mentions immunoglobin production and the CRISPR system in bacteria, "most cells" don't eliminate any of their genome, let alone "much" of it.

 
Quote
By the way, not all cells carry the complete genome: there are also a few cases where the DNA of an organism is modified — the CRISPR system in bacteria, and the somatic recombination system used in vertebrates to generate diverse immunoglobulins. In both of those cases, though, it’s not a mechanism to cut away unused DNA. It’s a specialized process to create variation during an organism’s lifetime to cope with environmental challenges.


Tunicates digesting their brains and cells getting rid of organelles do not constitute removal of their genome.

PZ Myers missed numerous common examples that indicate the opposite is true in regards to stationary differentiated cells that often eliminate the entire "brain" after migrating to then settling into their new home.

Other than a couple of abstract examples (as though they are rare exceptions) that make it seem extremely rare (instead of surprisingly common) the article is helping to promote the myth that (other than rare exception) in humans "all cells have the complete genome".

Like I said it was "incomplete and contradictory" to what is now known about genetic behavior.

--------------
The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.

   
N.Wells



Posts: 1836
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 20 2014,20:02   

Could you be any more clueless? - eliminating a brain , or even a "brain", is not equivalent to eliminating a genome.  If you had had any credibility in this area, you'd have just destroyed it.

Removing a preexisting brain (or "brain") is not that common (go on, list examples and prove me wrong), but regardless, PZ did not "miss them" because they aren't relevant to partial loss of the genome.  Also, I think we can add brain to the ever-lengthening list of words that you do not understand.

While you are at it, list instances of genome reduction in cells in humans, sufficient to back up your claim that genome reduction in humans is surprisingly common rather than rare and exceptional.  So far, we've got immunoglobins in humans*.  What else have you got?

Edited to add: sorry, typing too quickly - add 'and red blood cells and Muller cells'.

  
GaryGaulin



Posts: 5385
Joined: Oct. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 20 2014,20:12   

Quote (N.Wells @ Aug. 20 2014,20:02)
Removing a preexisting brain is not that common (go on, list examples and prove me wrong), but regardless, PZ did not "miss them" because they aren't relevant to partial loss of the genome.

Then according to your logic: Complete loss of the genome indicates that the cells still "have the complete genome".

Evidence please. Or at least a sanity check of yourself.

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The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.

   
k.e..



Posts: 5432
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 20 2014,20:21   

Quote (GaryGaulin @ Aug. 21 2014,03:57)
Quote (N.Wells @ Aug. 20 2014,19:31)
 
Quote (GaryGaulin @ Aug. 20 2014,17:56)
 
Quote (JohnW @ Aug. 20 2014,17:04)
   
Quote (GaryGaulin @ Aug. 20 2014,14:34)
The answer is as incomplete and contradictory as I expected. But it's good enough to make your crowd look smart, to a general public that does not know how primitive and behind the times in science the answer actually is.

Oh, do enlighten me and my fellow behind-the-times primitives, Gary!  Why do almost all cells have the complete genome?

Do your own homework.

But in case you need a clue as to why many cells do in fact eliminate much of their genome can be found in this video, especially around 2 minutes in:

https://www.ted.com/talks......_brains

Did you read any of that?  Although there are some instances of loss of parts of the genome (commentators mention trypanosomes, lampreys, and gall midges as providing some examples, and PZ mentions immunoglobin production and the CRISPR system in bacteria, "most cells" don't eliminate any of their genome, let alone "much" of it.

 
Quote
By the way, not all cells carry the complete genome: there are also a few cases where the DNA of an organism is modified — the CRISPR system in bacteria, and the somatic recombination system used in vertebrates to generate diverse immunoglobulins. In both of those cases, though, it’s not a mechanism to cut away unused DNA. It’s a specialized process to create variation during an organism’s lifetime to cope with environmental challenges.


Tunicates digesting their brains and cells getting rid of organelles do not constitute removal of their genome.

PZ Myers missed numerous common examples that indicate the opposite is true in regards to stationary differentiated cells that often eliminate the entire "brain" after migrating to then settling into their new home.

Other than a couple of abstract examples (as though they are rare exceptions) that make it seem extremely rare (instead of surprisingly common) the article is helping to promote the myth that (other than rare exception) in humans "all cells have the complete genome".

Like I said it was "incomplete and contradictory" to what is now known about genetic behavior.

Moar linguistic bone headedness from Gaga.

'Genetic' is not 'gene' Gary.

No wonder you don't know your ass from a hole in the ground.

Oh and PZ must be REALLY WORRIED that Gary Gaulin is on his case now.

--------------
"I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his clown DaveTard suit" dogdidit
"ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus
"I'm busy studying scientist level science papers" Galloping Gary Gaulin

  
N.Wells



Posts: 1836
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 20 2014,20:23   

Quote
Then according to your logic: Complete loss of the genome indicates that the cells still "have the complete genome".

Evidence please. Or at least a sanity check of yourself.


Where do you get that from?  Loss of a brain, or organelles other than the nucleus,  is not equal to loss of a genome.  

Yes, red blood cells (in mammals) and Muller cells dispose of their nuclei.  Neither performs standard cell functions: red blood cells basically become sacks for carrying oxygen and Muller cells become tubes for transmitting light, so in both cases, emptying them out makes sense, because any extra contents interferes with their critical functions.  However, which other cells have completely lost the genome?  Standard cell behavior is to silence or suppress genes, but not to get rid of no-longer-necessary genes.  

You are stating that partial, or now even total, loss of the genome is "surprisingly common" in humans.  Back that up.

  
GaryGaulin



Posts: 5385
Joined: Oct. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 20 2014,20:53   

Quote (N.Wells @ Aug. 20 2014,20:23)
Which cells have completely lost the genome?

That's from your inference. It was apparently from brushing off evidence I provided while trying to make excuses for PZ by limiting discussion to "relevant to partial loss of the genome" only.

According to the logic that you stated it can be inferred that: All of the very common examples where the entire brain/nucleus is eventually discarded (essentially "Complete loss of the genome") are irrelevant to a question that assumes "all cells have the complete genome".

--------------
The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.

   
N.Wells



Posts: 1836
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 20 2014,20:58   

Quote
But in case you need a clue as to why many cells do in fact eliminate much of their genome can be found in this video, especially around 2 minutes in:

https://www.ted.com/talks......_brains
 

Come on, Gary, what does resorption of brains in tunicates have to do with loss of the genome?

  
GaryGaulin



Posts: 5385
Joined: Oct. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 20 2014,21:06   

Quote (N.Wells @ Aug. 20 2014,20:58)
 
Quote
But in case you need a clue as to why many cells do in fact eliminate much of their genome can be found in this video, especially around 2 minutes in:

https://www.ted.com/talks......_brains
 

Come on, Gary, what does resorption of brains in tunicates have to do with loss of the genome?

 
Quote
The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause whereby in biology (emergent from behavior of matter) a collective of intelligent entities at the molecular level (self-replicating genetic systems) combine to cause emergence of intelligence at the cellular level, which combine to cause the emergence of intelligence at the multicellular level, to create us who are thereby a trinity of self-similar intelligence levels at different size scales each systematically and behaviorally in their/our own image, likeness.


--------------
The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.

   
N.Wells



Posts: 1836
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 20 2014,21:10   

Quote (GaryGaulin @ Aug. 20 2014,20:53)
Quote (N.Wells @ Aug. 20 2014,20:23)
Which cells have completely lost the genome?

That's from your inference. It was apparently from brushing off evidence I provided while trying to make excuses for PZ by limiting discussion to "relevant to partial loss of the genome" only.

According to the logic that you stated it can be inferred that: All of the very common examples where the entire brain/nucleus is eventually discarded (essentially "Complete loss of the genome") are irrelevant to a question that assumes "all cells have the complete genome".

Standardly, cells retain their genes while silencing or suppressing many of them.  There are some exceptions: a few odd organisms, and some very specialized cell types (red blood cells and Muller cells) that basically give up all normal cell functions and get repurposed as containers or tubes that are made as empty as possible of everything, including nuclei.  However these exceptions are exceptional and are not "surprisingly common".

  
N.Wells



Posts: 1836
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 20 2014,21:15   

Quote (GaryGaulin @ Aug. 20 2014,21:06)
Quote (N.Wells @ Aug. 20 2014,20:58)
   
Quote
But in case you need a clue as to why many cells do in fact eliminate much of their genome can be found in this video, especially around 2 minutes in:

https://www.ted.com/talks......_brains
 

Come on, Gary, what does resorption of brains in tunicates have to do with loss of the genome?

   
Quote
The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause whereby in biology (emergent from behavior of matter) a collective of intelligent entities at the molecular level (self-replicating genetic systems) combine to cause emergence of intelligence at the cellular level, which combine to cause the emergence of intelligence at the multicellular level, to create us who are thereby a trinity of self-similar intelligence levels at different size scales each systematically and behaviorally in their/our own image, likeness.

Move to strike as non-responsive.

What does resorption of brains in tunicates have to do with loss of the genome?

  
N.Wells



Posts: 1836
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 20 2014,21:32   

The full question was, "Why do [all] cells have the complete genome instead of just the part that’s needed for their function? Liver cells have muscle-making genes etc."  You mentioned two exceptions where cells actively need to empty out all their contents in order to perform their new functions (carrying oxygen and transmitting light).  PZ mentioned two other instances where partial genome reduction is a specialized process to create variation.  But other than that, standard behavior in the vast majority of all cell types is to retain all their genes while silencing most of them, rather than excising genes that are no longer needed.  PZ explains the economics of this: replication takes 2% of the cell's energy budget, while transcribing and translating genes can use 75% of the energy budget, so silencing genes can save a lot of energy.  PZ explains, "Evolving a complex process to pare away unused DNA in terminally differentiated cells simply does not make sense energetically, while simply taking advantage of an already fully implemented and refined process for regulating gene expression…heck, that’s what evolution does best, reusing what’s already there."  You'll note that neither the original paper nor PZ's summary finds any need for intelligence on the part of the cell or the DNA or the creature in effectuating or operating these systems.

  
GaryGaulin



Posts: 5385
Joined: Oct. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 20 2014,22:02   

Quote (N.Wells @ Aug. 20 2014,21:15)
Quote (GaryGaulin @ Aug. 20 2014,21:06)
Quote (N.Wells @ Aug. 20 2014,20:58)
   
Quote
But in case you need a clue as to why many cells do in fact eliminate much of their genome can be found in this video, especially around 2 minutes in:

https://www.ted.com/talks......_brains
 

Come on, Gary, what does resorption of brains in tunicates have to do with loss of the genome?

   
Quote
The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause whereby in biology (emergent from behavior of matter) a collective of intelligent entities at the molecular level (self-replicating genetic systems) combine to cause emergence of intelligence at the cellular level, which combine to cause the emergence of intelligence at the multicellular level, to create us who are thereby a trinity of self-similar intelligence levels at different size scales each systematically and behaviorally in their/our own image, likeness.

Move to strike as non-responsive.

What does resorption of brains in tunicates have to do with loss of the genome?

I don't have time to explain it all over again.

It's a good time for you (as I did in the theory I defend) to provide testable evidence that this predicted self-similarity in behaviors is instead a coincidence that has nothing to do with the basic circuit systematics of the intelligence levels being the same. To be taken seriously you'll have to show an even more Occam's razor simple modeling method for behavior of matter, genetic behavior, cellular and multicellular behavior, intelligent or not.

After accepting that eye lens cells and possibly more also have no nucleus, you'll then need to show that all white blood cells have the exact same code, which is exactly the same as all other cells like muscle, lung, liver, brain and germ cells, oops!

--------------
The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.

   
GaryGaulin



Posts: 5385
Joined: Oct. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 20 2014,22:36   

Quote (N.Wells @ Aug. 20 2014,21:32)
But other than that, standard behavior in the vast majority of all cell types is to retain all their genes while silencing most of them, rather than excising genes that are no longer needed.

I realize that in standard behavior data/genes are controlled and may never be addressed/activated by any of the sensory molecule cascades into memory. That is why I called the article "incomplete" then went on to explain what was embarrassingly wrong with it, which is in part due to Darwinian theory not caring about the self-similarity of a trinity of intelligence levels. PZ can just blame the logical construct of their theory for his having missed so much, I'll forgive him.

And Intelligence or not you need to propose a biologically relevant model for modeling genetic systems, which has a systematic way to qualify intelligence when it does exist in a system that can be modeled that way.

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The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.

   
N.Wells



Posts: 1836
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 21 2014,01:21   

Quote
I don't have time to explain it all over again.

You haven't explained anything once, yet.  Also, resorption of brains does not in any way involve loss of the genome.

 
Quote
It's a good time for you (as I did in the theory I defend) to provide testable evidence that this predicted self-similarity in behaviors is instead a coincidence that has nothing to do with the basic circuit systematics of the intelligence levels being the same. To be taken seriously you'll have to show an even more Occam's razor simple modeling method for behavior of matter, genetic behavior, cellular and multicellular behavior, intelligent or not.

Your pile of rubbish is not a theory, and you haven't provided any relevant evidence, testable or not.  The scientific side has published vast amounts of evidence, but you haven't.  You have merely asserted self-similarity, but you haven't demonstrated it or provided any relevant mathematics.  Also, the levels clearly aren't self-similar: animals have neurons and brains: plants, prokaryotes, cells, and molecules don't.  Therefore, there is no coincidence to explain.  You have no valid basis for predicting self-similarity: you have merely asserted it.  You have yet to document multiple intelligence levels.  So far you are adding in complications with no evidence for their necessity or their existence, so current standard science is better than your rubbish.  You are making exceptional claims, so it is your responsibility to come up with exceptional evidence.

 
Quote
After accepting that eye lens cells and possibly more also have no nucleus, you'll then need to show that all white blood cells have the exact same code, which is exactly the same as all other cells like muscle, lung, liver, brain and germ cells, oops!

No, I don't need to do that.  First, all cells can accumulate mutations when they copy themselves, so it is false to claim that biologists expect all cells in an individual to have the EXACT same code.  Basic types of white blood cells have nuclei and a full set of chromosomes, and people can be identified by the DNA in white blood cells in a blood sample (http://www.biology.arizona.edu/human_bio/problem_sets/dna_forensics_2/06t.html).  I already talked about B cells and immunoglobins with rearranged genes, so that is not an issue.   Moreover, immunoglobin production is becoming well understood and does not involve or require intelligence ( http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed.....0807577 ; http://genomemedicine.com/content....t....20 ;  

 
Quote
I realize that in standard behavior data/genes are controlled and may never be addressed/activated by any of the sensory molecule cascades into memory.

Then the levels aren't self-similar, are they?

 
Quote
That is why I called the article "incomplete" then went on to explain what was embarrassingly wrong with it, which is in part due to Darwinian theory not caring about the self-similarity of a trinity of intelligence levels.
You haven't established self-similarity, your three levels are bogus and do not include Edgar Postrado's more recent and more extensive proposals for "intelligent design".  

 
Quote
PZ can just blame the logical construct of their theory for his having missed so much, I'll forgive him.
For someone who does nothing but promulgating rubbish and errors,  that's more than a tad presumptuous.

 
Quote
And Intelligence or not you need to propose a biologically relevant model for modeling genetic systems, which has a systematic way to qualify intelligence when it does exist in a system that can be modeled that way.

We have great models for genetic systems (e.g. check out the Hardy-Weinberg model).  We will eventually need but do not yet have a detailed model for the emergence of intelligence (although we have some decent general hypotheses), but your offerings in this regard are worse than useless, so even "we don't know" provides a superior explanation to your not-a-theory.

  
NoName



Posts: 2729
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 21 2014,07:23   

Quote (GaryGaulin @ Aug. 20 2014,23:02)
 
Quote (N.Wells @ Aug. 20 2014,21:15)
...
What does resorption of brains in tunicates have to do with loss of the genome?

I don't have time to explain it all over again.

You haven't explained it in the first place.  Not even once.
Quote

It's a good time for you (as I did in the theory I defend) to provide testable evidence that this predicted self-similarity in behaviors is instead a coincidence that has nothing to do with the basic circuit systematics of the intelligence levels being the same. To be taken seriously you'll have to show an even more Occam's razor simple modeling method for behavior of matter, genetic behavior, cellular and multicellular behavior, intelligent or not.

After accepting that eye lens cells and possibly more also have no nucleus, you'll then need to show that all white blood cells have the exact same code, which is exactly the same as all other cells like muscle, lung, liver, brain and germ cells, oops!

Again, you haven't demonstrated 'self-similarity in behaviors' nor have you demonstrated 'self similarity' at all scales from the atomic to the cosmic.
You continue to avoid the conclusions that follow from your own claims.
What does intelligence, or 'intelligence' in your special sense, have to do with the formation of water from hydrogen and oxygen?  What does intelligence, or 'intelligence' in your special sense, have to do with nucleosynthesis in stellar reactions?  What does intelligence, or 'intelligence' in your special sense, have to do with the planets following elliptical orbits?  Etc., etc., etc.
Your claims are so trivially falsifiable that they are simply false on their face.
Not all intelligence, or 'intelligence' in your special sense', requires or involves motor control.  The senses are not directly connected to memory.  Biological entities do not have RAM in the strict sense of the term.  Senses do not directly address memory in biological entities in any strict or regular sense of the term.  Proust notwithstanding.  Your assertion fails if it has to fall back to 'sometimes' instead of 'invariably'.
Everything you claim is either false or stolen.  Every. single. thing.

Even the implications you attempt to draw from biology and genetics, such as the appalling errors in your final sentence, are wrong.  There is nothing about genetic theory that requires all cells, even all cells of a given 'type' have the exact same code.  And part of the reason is the differential expression of genes and the differential activity of the regulatory genes and the consequent differential impact of mutations or damage to the entirety of the genetic package contained in the cells or involved in their "manufacture".
You do realize that there are more bacterial cells occupying the total space contained by your skin than there are human cells?  You do realize that that's not a problem?

As we've known all along, what you know about biology could be written in 48 point Gothic type on the point of a pin.

  
N.Wells



Posts: 1836
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 21 2014,08:30   

Quote
The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause whereby in biology (emergent from behavior of matter) a collective of intelligent entities at the molecular level (self-replicating genetic systems) combine to cause emergence of intelligence at the cellular level, which combine to cause the emergence of intelligence at the multicellular level, to create us who are thereby a trinity of self-similar intelligence levels at different size scales each systematically and behaviorally in their/our own image, likeness.

That's still a putrid, poorly written sentence, from the vapid and meaningless "certain features"  to the excrescence of "image, likeness".  However, the science-y part remains far worse than the writing.  You still have not provided a valid operational definition of intelligence, you have not documented the existence of intelligence at molecular levels, and you have not documented self-similarity.  Your appeals to both self-similarity and design remain a conceptual mess: if something emerges at a higher level from a lower level, then the two levels are de facto not the same, and are therefore not self-similar, and what emerged cannot be described as having been designed.  Way too many of your words are unjustified but are in there solely because you want to bask in their importance and/or conflate secondary meanings into your arguments: these include theory, design, intelligence, trinity, self-similar, and systematically.

  
fnxtr



Posts: 3504
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 21 2014,08:46   

Gary, in case you missed it the first time:

"To get back to the warning that I received. You may take it with however many grains of salt that you wish. That the brown acid that is circulating around us isn't too good. It is suggested that you stay away from that. Of course it's your own trip. So be my guest, but please be advised that there is a warning on that one, ok?"

--------------
"[A] book said there were 5 trillion witnesses. Who am I supposed to believe, 5 trillion witnesses or you? That shit's, like, ironclad. " -- stevestory

"Wow, you must be retarded. I said that CO2 does not trap heat. If it did then it would not cool down at night."  Joe G

  
k.e..



Posts: 5432
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 21 2014,09:00   

Quote (fnxtr @ Aug. 21 2014,16:46)
Gary, in case you missed it the first time:

"To get back to the warning that I received. You may take it with however many grains of salt that you wish. That the brown acid that is circulating around us isn't too good. It is suggested that you stay away from that. Of course it's your own trip. So be my guest, but please be advised that there is a warning on that one, ok?"

The only thing it didn't fuck up was his finger and the ability to con his wife into paying for bandwidth.

--------------
"I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his clown DaveTard suit" dogdidit
"ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus
"I'm busy studying scientist level science papers" Galloping Gary Gaulin

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 21 2014,13:54   

Quote (N.Wells @ Aug. 21 2014,02:21)
Quote
I don't have time to explain it all over again.

You haven't explained anything once, yet.

ROTF.

   
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