Antievolution.org - Antievolution.org Discussion Board -Topic::Book club

Posted: Mar. 21 2008,10:16

I read the Illuminatus! trilogy last week, for the first time. It was fun.

Now I'm going to re-read some Arthur C Clarke, because its maybe 7 years since I last read anything by him.

Dr.GH

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Joined: May 2002

Posted: Mar. 21 2008,16:46

I doubt it matters that much which Pratchett book you first read. I stated probably in the middle somewhere, and then bought them all. I read them in publication order then in narrative sequecnes following particular character arcs. Then in publication order again, and then randomly.

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"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

carlsonjok

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Joined: May 2006

Posted: May 17 2008,12:06

Two book related comments.

1. I just finished The Devil in Dover by Lauri Lebo. It was absolutely awesome. She is a great writer who infuses the book with enough of her personal journey to make it compelling even if you aren't a student of the anti-evolution movement. Of course, that doesn't describe anyone here, but you get my point. Buy this book.

2. Hat tip to Albatrossity2 who turned me on to Merrill Gilfillan. I read his collection of essays Magpie Rising a couple months ago and enjoyed it so much that I just bought Chokecherry Places to be my travelling companion on a business trip next week.

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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it. �We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

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Joined: Mar. 2007

Posted: May 17 2008,13:35

Quote (carlsonjok @ May 17 2008,12:06)

Two book related comments.

1. I just finished The Devil in Dover by Lauri Lebo. It was absolutely awesome. She is a great writer who infuses the book with enough of her personal journey to make it compelling even if you aren't a student of the anti-evolution movement. Of course, that doesn't describe anyone here, but you get my point. Buy this book.

2. Hat tip to Albatrossity2 who turned me on to Merrill Gilfillan. I read his collection of essays Magpie Rising a couple months ago and enjoyed it so much that I just bought Chokecherry Places to be my travelling companion on a business trip next week.

Yeah, Lebo's book is on the desk, awaiting the time when I will have some free hours to read it. Glad to hear that it is a good read.

And I'm glad you liked Magpie Rising; it's one of my all-time favorite books. The only problem with Gilfillan is that all of his books are too short; you never want to turn that last page and return to the mundane.

I think you'll enjoy Chokecherry Places as well, and Sworn Before Cranes if you want to continue on the Great Plains theme. Erasmus might like Burnt House to Paw Paw, which focuses more on the Appalachian region. I know several natives of the Appalachian region who told me that it was their favorite Gilfillan work.

Of course, I am fortunate to be able to meet and hike with some of these good writers, including Gilfillan, who visited here a few years back and actually went birding with my Field Ornithology class one morning. He's a pretty good birder, too. This is one of the perks of living with an excellent writer; I get to hobnob with the visiting poets and writers as well as with the biologists.

And I get to participate in the activities that lead up to her essays; she just had a story published in the latest issue of Orion (Sunrise on the Medicine Wheel), about the expedition that we made up to the Bighorn Mountains last year for the solstice. That essay is not available online at this time, but Orion does rotate their articles on the website, so maybe it will be available sometime soon.

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Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
� � � � � � � � � � � � - Pattiann Rogers

Dr.GH

Posts: 2333
Joined: May 2002

Posted: May 17 2008,15:26

This week;

Caldwell, Billy R.
2005 "Geology in the Bible" Burgess Hill, UK: Meadow Books

Froede, Carl R.
2005 "Geology by Design: Interpreting Rocks and Their Catastrophic Record" Green Forest: Master Books

Sailhamer, John H.
1998 "Old Testament History" (Grand Rapids: Zondervan)

Sailhamer, John H.
1998 "Biblical Archaeology" (Grand Rapids: Zondervan)

Wilson, Robert Dick
1919 "A Scientific Investigation of the Old Testament" Philadelphia: The Sunday School Times (1996 reprint)

All but the last are complete and utter garbage. Wilson's book is merely obsolete, but not dishonest.

My review copy of the Intelligent Design "high school textbook" has finally arrived from the Discovery Institute (Thanks to Paul Nelson)

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"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

carlsonjok

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Posted: May 17 2008,16:17

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ May 17 2008,13:35)

Yeah, Lebo's book is on the desk, awaiting the time when I will have some free hours to read it. Glad to hear that it is a good read.

All I can say is to make sure you have enough time set aside to read it straight through. I picked it up at around 6 PM Friday and read about half way through before bed. I finished the second half the following morning. Trivia: Poor old Davescot makes an another appearance with his now famous "all your bases are belong to us" comment about Kitzmiller v. Dover.

Quote

And I'm glad you liked Magpie Rising; it's one of my all-time favorite books. The only problem with Gilfillan is that all of his books are too short; you never want to turn that last page and return to the mundane.

Indeed, the way he describes things is unique to my experience. He uses words and phrases that I wouldn't normally expect to be applied to landscapes, but it works. There is one quote in Magpie that really captured the essence of my moving to the plains after a 30 years in the Northeast. He expresses the experience in vivid, but parsimonious language:

Quote

On this continent and in the psyche of its people the plains have always been a staggering presence, a place for transformation, bafflement, or heartbreak. From the east they are a release from the clawing of swamp and tangle and human density. From the west they are a drop and a straightening after the kinks and strains of mountains. Entered from any direction they are a new air, a joy to behold, a combination of large-scale intimidations and primordial inner acoustics.

Perfect. Just perfect.

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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it. �We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

Lou FCD

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Joined: Jan. 2006

Posted: May 17 2008,20:00

Speaking of books (I forgot we even had this thread), this week I received my copy of Here, Eyeball This!.

I'm very much looking forward to reading it, and I'll put a review up when I'm done.

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

Dr.GH

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Joined: May 2002

Posted: May 18 2008,01:13

Quote (carlsonjok @ May 17 2008,14:17)

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ May 17 2008,13:35)

Yeah, Lebo's book is on the desk, awaiting the time when I will have some free hours to read it. Glad to hear that it is a good read.

All I can say is to make sure you have enough time set aside to read it straight through.

I also had to read Lebo's book straight through. Two days later I read Gordy Slack's book on Dover, "The Battle Over the Meaning of Everything."

The timing was not good for Gordy. His only unique observations were made as casual asides about some of the other reporters he met at the trial. His attempted personalizations were weak compared to Lebo. His grasp of the pro-creationist arguments were weak compared to Edward Humes, (2007 �Monkey Girl� New York: Harper Collins), and his humor was weak compared to Matthew Chapman, (2007 �40 Days and 40 Nights� New York: Harper Collins).

The book I really wish would get written now on the Dover trial is the one by Mike Argento. Why he hasn't done it is a mystery.

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"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

Lou FCD

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Joined: Jan. 2006

Posted: May 21 2008,14:50

Quote (Dr.GH @ May 18 2008,02:13)

The book I really wish would get written now on the Dover trial is the one by Mike Argento. Why he hasn't done it is a mystery.

I'd like to see that one written as well.

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

Posted: May 23 2008,07:01

This is not about a book, but about an essay that will be included in a future book. Elizabeth's essay about the Bighorn Medicine Wheel (Wyoming) is now available online at Orion magazine. It is not directly about evolution, or science, but it touches on both of those areas. And it gives me a chance to brag a bit about the wonderful writer with whom I share my life.

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Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
� � � � � � � � � � � � - Pattiann Rogers

Wesley R. Elsberry

Posts: 4991
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Posted: June 09 2008,08:49

Lauri Lebo's "The Devil in Dover"

I just found out yesterday that the title is shared with a subtitle of a ~~"Friday the 13th" sequel~~ documentary about a Canadian biker rally. I haven't asked Lauri yet if that was intentional.

Edited by Wesley R. Elsberry on June 09 2008,09:14

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

k.e..

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Posted: June 09 2008,09:28

OK time for a little seriousness since books is hisself's first love...after my mother and all her younger sisters ...thank you all.

I took it easy on my last trip and only read some short stories since I treated hisself to an Ipod Classic 160 loaded up with ...hold on a sec. one of my gf's from Indon. has just sms'ed me ....I'll be right back...

OK here it is Collected Stories by Gabriel Garcia Marquez.

This traces his growth and mastery of his style over his career.

My suggestion is to start with the second last story and read it backwards to the first saving the end story for last.

Believe me it will make the pleasure almost perfect.

In my humble opinion his genius is unmatched except by maybe Joyce.

The last book I read by him My Melancholy Whores again defines him as the best male love story writer since whatever you want.

For an airport read John le Carr�'s The Missionary Song is a soft tease but we all need that once in a while.

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"I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his ~~clown~~ DaveTard suit" dogdidit
"ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus
"I'm busy studying scientist level science papers" Galloping Gary Gaulin

dnmlthr

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Posted: June 09 2008,10:27

Currently reading Road to Reality by Roger Penrose, but making slow progress. It's not exactly a book you just zip through on a lazy summer day.

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Guess what? I don't give a flying f*ck how "science works" - Ftk

J-Dog

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Posted: June 09 2008,14:02

Quote (dnmlthr @ June 09 2008,10:27)

Currently reading Road to Reality by Roger Penrose, but making slow progress. It's not exactly a book you just zip through on a lazy summer day.

Perhaps you could send that to FTK when you're finished?

(We could probably take up a collection here to reimburse you for the expense.)

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

midwifetoad

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Posted: June 09 2008,14:22

Quote (dnmlthr @ June 09 2008,10:27)

Currently reading Road to Reality by Roger Penrose, but making slow progress. It's not exactly a book you just zip through on a lazy summer day.

I hope that road doesn't traverse too many miles through the Emperor's Mind.

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Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

dnmlthr

Posts: 565
Joined: Mar. 2008

Posted: June 09 2008,14:38

Quote (J-Dog @ June 09 2008,20:02)

Quote (dnmlthr @ June 09 2008,10:27)

Currently reading Road to Reality by Roger Penrose, but making slow progress. It's not exactly a book you just zip through on a lazy summer day.

Perhaps you could send that to FTK when you're finished?

(We could probably take up a collection here to reimburse you for the expense.)

Haha, actually I like to keep books of this nature when I'm done with them (it's just a scruffy paperback anyway). In any case, I doubt she'd waste more than 5 minutes on it anyway.

Quote (midwifetoad @ June 09 2008,20:22)

I hope that road doesn't traverse too many miles through the Emperor's Mind.

Are you refering to his more speculative chapters?

Edit: There's at least not a chapter dedicated to his ideas on cognition, of which I have read absolutely zilch. I somehow misread your comment into a permutation of the emperor's new clothes.

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Guess what? I don't give a flying f*ck how "science works" - Ftk

carlsonjok

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Posted: June 13 2008,19:27

I just bought Ken Miller's "Only a Theory:Evolution and the Battle for America's Soul". I intend to settle in with it tonight. For shits and giggles, I looked it up on Amazon here. No wonder Dembski has got his tidy whiteys in a bunch. Check this out:

Quote

Product Details
* Hardcover: 256 pages
* Publisher: Viking Adult (June 12, 2008)
* Language: English
* ISBN-10: 067001883X
* ISBN-13: 978-0670018833
* Product Dimensions: 9.3 x 6.2 x 1 inches
* Shipping Weight: 15.5 ounces (View shipping rates and policies)

* Amazon.com Sales Rank: #630 in Books (See Bestsellers in Books)

Already at 630 on it's first day out! "Design of Life" never made it that high.

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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it. �We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

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Joined: Oct. 2005

Posted: June 13 2008,23:06

Two books i picked up at Davis library tonight:

Po Bronson: What should I do with my life?

and

Daniel Goleman: Emotional Intelligence

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Posted: June 14 2008,07:14

Quote (stevestory @ June 13 2008,23:06)

Two books i picked up at Davis library tonight:

Po Bronson: What should I do with my life?

and

Daniel Goleman: Emotional Intelligence

We read "Emotional intelligence" as part of a freshman woman's science and engineering seminar last fall; I co-taught this with a chem professor as an overload course. Most boring book I've read in a long while; chapter after chapter of anecdotes illustrating his main and simple point.

It amazes me that somebody can get a simple decent idea and stretch it out into a book-length treatise. But Goleman managed to get at least 5 books out of the idea, and all of them are boring. The self-help book market must be very lucrative...

Let me know what you think after you finish the book

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
� � � � � � � � � � � � - Pattiann Rogers

Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

Posted: June 25 2008,15:52

Emotional Intelligence

One of the most interesting books I've read in years. I'm going to go through and make a detailed outline after I'm done, because it's too dense to retain from one read.

Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

Posted: June 25 2008,16:14

Some of the most interesting bits so far:

The importance of emotions to prioritizing decisions.

The cortex/limbic/amygdala relationiship whereby you can be influenced to behave differently based on emotions you aren't aware of.

How anger can increase from positive feedbacks loops, and catharsis actually makes the situation worse instead of better, but that anger can be diffused by waiting out the hormonal response.

Delayed gratification skills learned even by the age of 4 can have more impact on a person's graduation rates / SAT scores etc than IQ score well into adulthood.

The complicated relationship between anxiety and performance.

Ignoring/suppressing emotions may help make men 5 times more prone to alcoholism.

The significant impact optimism vs pessimism creates.

There's reference to a lot of research that seems to show that certain emotional traits can have more importance for success in life than any SAT or IQ test.

I'm only about halfway through. I'll have more to say later.

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Posted: June 25 2008,16:56

Quote (stevestory @ June 25 2008,15:52)

Emotional Intelligence

One of the most interesting books I've read in years. I'm going to go through and make a detailed outline after I'm done, because it's too dense to retain from one read.

Well, umm, good. I'm glad to see that my opinion didn't have any undue influence on yours.

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
� � � � � � � � � � � � - Pattiann Rogers

Steviepinhead

Posts: 532
Joined: Jan. 2006

Posted: June 25 2008,20:18

Just finished "Will in the World" by Stephen Greenblatt.

Very interesting juxtaposition of the actual documentary trail that Shakespeare left (mostly real estate purchases, leases, and the like) with his writing with his milieu (the most interesting, but speculative, parts).

I may do a book review for the interwebs somewhere, sometime, mainly because I was struck by the different way in which evidence is handled in literary (or biographical) criticism/history than in science or law...

But enjoyable and well-written. Four stars, I think.

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Joined: Mar. 2007

Posted: June 25 2008,20:32

I just finished Joan Didion's "The �Year of Magical Thinking".

If you haven't heard about it, it documents the year after her husband dies suddenly of a massive cardiac infarction, while her only child is in the hospital with a life-threatening infection. It is a remarkable case-study of grief, mourning, and how we deal (or not) with loss. Four stars, easily. Not light reading, but powerful stuff, especially as you contemplate life and loss and love. Naturally that is difficult since none of us have a moral code on a daily basis, but I did my best to think about it anyway.

I also finished Lauri Lebo's book about the Dover Trial. It is an interesting window on the trial and the community, and I certainly enjoyed reading about the breathtaking inanity from a ground-floor perspective. Ed Humes "Monkey Girl" is a better read (he's just a better writer), but if you read both of these books, you will get a better �perspective on that remarkable story. Hopefully some Louisiana journalists are gearing up for their best-sellers based on the guaranteed future breathtaking inanity in the Bayou State...

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Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
� � � � � � � � � � � � - Pattiann Rogers

Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

Posted: June 25 2008,22:02

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ June 25 2008,17:56)

Well, umm, good. I'm glad to see that my opinion didn't have any undue influence on yours. :p

Well it's a good thing we're capable of reasonable disagreement. Good thing this isn't UD. I'd have to ban you, then you'd get Lou to ban me, then Wesley would ban Lou, then Lou's fans would rally and Wesley would unban him and reban me, then I'd take a fire hatchet to the server...

It's so much more work being an IDer.

Lou FCD

Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

Posted: June 25 2008,22:07

Quote (stevestory @ June 25 2008,23:02)

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ June 25 2008,17:56)

Well, umm, good. I'm glad to see that my opinion didn't have any undue influence on yours. �

Well it's a good thing we're capable of reasonable disagreement. Good thing this isn't UD. I'd have to ban you, then you'd get Lou to ban me, then Wesley would ban Lou, then Lou's fans would rally and Wesley would unban him and reban me, then I'd take a fire hatchet to the server...

It's so much more work being an IDer.

I don't think the bulk of my fans reside at AtBC. No offense or nothin' but the vast majority of my fans aren't even mine per se.

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

Dr.GH

Posts: 2333
Joined: May 2002

Posted: June 26 2008,01:11

Quote (stevestory @ June 25 2008,14:14)

Some of the most interesting bits so far:

The importance of emotions to prioritizing decisions.

The cortex/limbic/amygdala relationiship whereby you can be influenced to behave differently based on emotions you aren't aware of.

How anger can increase from positive feedbacks loops, and catharsis actually makes the situation worse instead of better, but that anger can be diffused by waiting out the hormonal response.

Delayed gratification skills learned even by the age of 4 can have more impact on a person's graduation rates / SAT scores etc than IQ score well into adulthood.

The complicated relationship between anxiety and performance.

Ignoring/suppressing emotions may help make men 5 times more prone to alcoholism.

The significant impact optimism vs pessimism creates.

There's reference to a lot of research that seems to show that certain emotional traits can have more importance for success in life than any SAT or IQ test.

I'm only about halfway through. I'll have more to say later.

None of the statistically normative studies have any help dealing with the extremes.

I recall my mother being very disappointed when I was a high school student when she read an news article that indicated that average income declined for people with normalized IQs over 3 standard deviations from the mean. She was very materialistic in the sociological sense of the word.

We never starved.

She got over her 1930s-childhood induced economic angst.

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"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

Dr.GH

Posts: 2333
Joined: May 2002

Posted: June 26 2008,01:43

I have been reading books, and even posting reviews.

Apparently there is some sort of contest about how many people vote for "helpful" reviews at Amazon.com. I do admit that I like my ratio of 336 helpful to 408 total votes. 82% positive aint bad.

--------------
"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007