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Antievolution.org Discussion Board > From the Panda's Thumb > After the Bar Closes... > Telic Thoughts Thread

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didymos Posts: 1828 Joined: Mar. 2008 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 11 2010,10:13    Quote (KCdgw @ Nov. 11 2010,08:02) Quote (Zachriel @ Nov. 11 2010,09:26) Quote (BillB @ Nov. 11 2010,08:43)   Quote (Zachriel @ Nov. 11 2010,14:34)   Quote (dogdidit @ Nov. 11 2010,08:15)     Quote (KCdgw @ Nov. 11 2010,07:43)       Quote (KCdgw @ Nov. 11 2010,07:39)         Quote (sledgehammer @ Nov. 10 2010,17:45)         Quote (Robin @ Nov. 10 2010,14:03)   Quote (olegt @ Nov. 10 2010,15:57)           Quote (Richardthughes @ Nov. 10 2010,15:52)                 Quote (KCdgw @ Nov. 10 2010,15:45)                   Quote (fnxtr @ Nov. 10 2010,15:41)                   Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Nov. 10 2010,13:19)                     Quote (Henry J @ Nov. 10 2010,15:00)                     Quote (didymos @ Nov. 10 2010,13:51)                       Quote (Richardthughes @ Nov. 10 2010,12:49)                       Quote (Henry J @ Nov. 10 2010,14:41)                         Quote (Louis @ Nov. 10 2010,13:34)                         Quote (Zachriel @ Nov. 10 2010,20:24)                           Quote (Henry J @ Nov. 10 2010,14:20)                           Quote The modified salmon includes a gene from an eel. Any explanation has to explain that fact. That requirement is apt to leave them floundering. Cod happen. Gentlemen, is this really the plaice for this sort of behaviour? Louis Well, not if people are gonna carp about it! I can't believe what I'm herring. LOLer-Skates. I shall not be reeled into this undignified pun cascade. So this then will be your sole reply on this matter? You all have finally jumped the shark. I knew something smelt fishy about this thread. I'm getting a haddock over all this Are you having a wet bream? I am afraid this is eel-conceived. I am dolphin*-ly not impressed. Methinks it's just time to clam up. * fish, not the mammal It all smells of, ick, theology! Makes me want to tuna-out. And its a crappie thread, besides. Stop this, you bass tards! Go fish. Oh Cod, not again! For the hallibut, get off your perch and sucker your asp! Wahoo!!!!!!!!!! You all mako me sick. -------------- I wouldn't be bothered reading about the selfish gene because it has never been identified. -- Denyse O'Leary, professional moron Again "how much". I don't think that's a good way to be quantitative.-- gpuccio

keiths Posts: 2195 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 11 2010,13:04    Quote (didymos @ Nov. 11 2010,08:13) Quote (KCdgw @ Nov. 11 2010,08:02) Quote (Zachriel @ Nov. 11 2010,09:26) Quote (BillB @ Nov. 11 2010,08:43) Quote (Zachriel @ Nov. 11 2010,14:34)     Quote (dogdidit @ Nov. 11 2010,08:15)       Quote (KCdgw @ Nov. 11 2010,07:43)         Quote (KCdgw @ Nov. 11 2010,07:39)           Quote (sledgehammer @ Nov. 10 2010,17:45)           Quote (Robin @ Nov. 10 2010,14:03) Quote (olegt @ Nov. 10 2010,15:57)             Quote (Richardthughes @ Nov. 10 2010,15:52)                   Quote (KCdgw @ Nov. 10 2010,15:45)                     Quote (fnxtr @ Nov. 10 2010,15:41)                     Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Nov. 10 2010,13:19)                       Quote (Henry J @ Nov. 10 2010,15:00)                       Quote (didymos @ Nov. 10 2010,13:51)                         Quote (Richardthughes @ Nov. 10 2010,12:49)                     Quote (Henry J @ Nov. 10 2010,14:41)                           Quote (Louis @ Nov. 10 2010,13:34)                           Quote (Zachriel @ Nov. 10 2010,20:24)                             Quote (Henry J @ Nov. 10 2010,14:20)                             Quote The modified salmon includes a gene from an eel. Any explanation has to explain that fact. That requirement is apt to leave them floundering. Cod happen. Gentlemen, is this really the plaice for this sort of behaviour? Louis Well, not if people are gonna carp about it! I can't believe what I'm herring. LOLer-Skates. I shall not be reeled into this undignified pun cascade. So this then will be your sole reply on this matter? You all have finally jumped the shark. I knew something smelt fishy about this thread. I'm getting a haddock over all this Are you having a wet bream? I am afraid this is eel-conceived. I am dolphin*-ly not impressed. Methinks it's just time to clam up. * fish, not the mammal It all smells of, ick, theology! Makes me want to tuna-out. And its a crappie thread, besides. Stop this, you bass tards! Go fish. Oh Cod, not again! For the hallibut, get off your perch and sucker your asp! Wahoo!!!!!!!!!! You all mako me sick. Walleye think this has gone on long enough. -------------- And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number. -- Joe G Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

Raevmo Posts: 235 Joined: Oct. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 11 2010,13:33    Quote (keiths @ Nov. 11 2010,13:04)   Quote (didymos @ Nov. 11 2010,08:13)     Quote (KCdgw @ Nov. 11 2010,08:02)   Quote (Zachriel @ Nov. 11 2010,09:26)   Quote (BillB @ Nov. 11 2010,08:43)     Quote (Zachriel @ Nov. 11 2010,14:34)         Quote (dogdidit @ Nov. 11 2010,08:15)         Quote (KCdgw @ Nov. 11 2010,07:43)             Quote (KCdgw @ Nov. 11 2010,07:39)             Quote (sledgehammer @ Nov. 10 2010,17:45)               Quote (Robin @ Nov. 10 2010,14:03)   Quote (olegt @ Nov. 10 2010,15:57)                 Quote (Richardthughes @ Nov. 10 2010,15:52)                       Quote (KCdgw @ Nov. 10 2010,15:45)                       Quote (fnxtr @ Nov. 10 2010,15:41)                         Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Nov. 10 2010,13:19)                         Quote (Henry J @ Nov. 10 2010,15:00)                           Quote (didymos @ Nov. 10 2010,13:51)                           Quote (Richardthughes @ Nov. 10 2010,12:49)                       Quote (Henry J @ Nov. 10 2010,14:41)                             Quote (Louis @ Nov. 10 2010,13:34)                               Quote (Zachriel @ Nov. 10 2010,20:24)                               Quote (Henry J @ Nov. 10 2010,14:20)                                 Quote The modified salmon includes a gene from an eel. Any explanation has to explain that fact. That requirement is apt to leave them floundering. Cod happen. Gentlemen, is this really the plaice for this sort of behaviour? Louis Well, not if people are gonna carp about it! I can't believe what I'm herring. LOLer-Skates. I shall not be reeled into this undignified pun cascade. So this then will be your sole reply on this matter? You all have finally jumped the shark. I knew something smelt fishy about this thread. I'm getting a haddock over all this Are you having a wet bream? I am afraid this is eel-conceived. I am dolphin*-ly not impressed. Methinks it's just time to clam up. * fish, not the mammal It all smells of, ick, theology! Makes me want to tuna-out. And its a crappie thread, besides. Stop this, you bass tards! Go fish. Oh Cod, not again! For the hallibut, get off your perch and sucker your asp! Wahoo!!!!!!!!!! You all mako me sick. Walleye think this has gone on long enough. Ik snapper niks meer van -------------- After much reflection I finally realized that the best way to describe the cause of the universe is: the great I AM. --GilDodgen

DaveH Posts: 49 Joined: July 2009 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 11 2010,15:58    Quote (Raevmo @ Nov. 11 2010,13:33) Quote (keiths @ Nov. 11 2010,13:04)   Quote (didymos @ Nov. 11 2010,08:13)     Quote (KCdgw @ Nov. 11 2010,08:02)     Quote (Zachriel @ Nov. 11 2010,09:26)     Quote (BillB @ Nov. 11 2010,08:43)     Quote (Zachriel @ Nov. 11 2010,14:34)         Quote (dogdidit @ Nov. 11 2010,08:15)           Quote (KCdgw @ Nov. 11 2010,07:43)             Quote (KCdgw @ Nov. 11 2010,07:39)               Quote (sledgehammer @ Nov. 10 2010,17:45)               Quote (Robin @ Nov. 10 2010,14:03)     Quote (olegt @ Nov. 10 2010,15:57)                 Quote (Richardthughes @ Nov. 10 2010,15:52)                       Quote (KCdgw @ Nov. 10 2010,15:45)                         Quote (fnxtr @ Nov. 10 2010,15:41)                         Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Nov. 10 2010,13:19)                           Quote (Henry J @ Nov. 10 2010,15:00)                           Quote (didymos @ Nov. 10 2010,13:51)                             Quote (Richardthughes @ Nov. 10 2010,12:49)                         Quote (Henry J @ Nov. 10 2010,14:41)                               Quote (Louis @ Nov. 10 2010,13:34)                               Quote (Zachriel @ Nov. 10 2010,20:24)                                 Quote (Henry J @ Nov. 10 2010,14:20)                                 Quote The modified salmon includes a gene from an eel. Any explanation has to explain that fact. That requirement is apt to leave them floundering. Cod happen. Gentlemen, is this really the plaice for this sort of behaviour? Louis Well, not if people are gonna carp about it! I can't believe what I'm herring. LOLer-Skates. I shall not be reeled into this undignified pun cascade. So this then will be your sole reply on this matter? You all have finally jumped the shark. I knew something smelt fishy about this thread. I'm getting a haddock over all this Are you having a wet bream? I am afraid this is eel-conceived. I am dolphin*-ly not impressed. Methinks it's just time to clam up. * fish, not the mammal It all smells of, ick, theology! Makes me want to tuna-out. And its a crappie thread, besides. Stop this, you bass tards! Go fish. Oh Cod, not again! For the hallibut, get off your perch and sucker your asp! Wahoo!!!!!!!!!! You all mako me sick. Walleye think this has gone on long enough. Ik snapper niks meer van The answer they are looking for is: "The piece of Cod that passeth all understanding"

Henry J Posts: 5786 Joined: Mar. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 11 2010,20:50    Quote Go fish. Quote Oh Cod, not again! Quote For the hallibut, get off your perch and sucker your asp! Quote Wahoo!!!!!!!!!! Quote You all mako me sick. Are you gonna need a sturgeon to help with that? Henry

Quack Posts: 1961 Joined: May 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 12 2010,03:58    Quote (Henry J @ Nov. 11 2010,20:50)   Quote Go fish.   Quote Oh Cod, not again!   Quote For the hallibut, get off your perch and sucker your asp!   Quote Wahoo!!!!!!!!!!   Quote You all mako me sick. Are you gonna need a sturgeon to help with that? Henry Do I scent a red herring floundering through this channel? -------------- Rocks have no biology.               Robert Byers.

Henry J Posts: 5786 Joined: Mar. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 12 2010,10:54    In that case, should we change the channel?

EyeNoTwo Posts: 7 Joined: Aug. 2010 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 12 2010,11:26    Quote (Quack @ Nov. 12 2010,03:58) Quote (Henry J @ Nov. 11 2010,20:50)   Quote Go fish.     Quote Oh Cod, not again!     Quote For the hallibut, get off your perch and sucker your asp!     Quote Wahoo!!!!!!!!!!     Quote You all mako me sick. Are you gonna need a sturgeon to help with that? Henry Do I scent a red herring floundering through this channel? It's obvious the point he was trying to make went right bayou. Was that a fluke?

Zachriel Posts: 2723 Joined: Sep. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 12 2010,21:14    Quote (EyeNoTwo @ Nov. 12 2010,11:26) Was that a fluke? There's blenny more where that came from. -------------- You never step on the same tard twice—for it's not the same tard and you're not the same person.

Thought Provoker Posts: 530 Joined: April 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2010,16:13    This shoaling has condemned all your soles to Mobula mobular.

Thought Provoker Posts: 530 Joined: April 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2010,18:13    Nullasalus has laid down some new rules for me, including that I can't thank him any more. link But the semi-interesting part is that Nullasalus declares copying, verbatium, a DI article quotemining Thomas Jefferson to argue "In reality, Jefferson did not believe that intelligent design was a religious doctrine." is topical whereas providing the actual words of Jefferson in context is not. It looks like I may be shortly joining the list of the TT banned.  Especially if I continue to provide side comments like this on AtBC which those on TT say they never read. Frankly, I wouldn't blame anyone for suggesting the fish puns are more interesting than this.

oldmanintheskydidntdoit Posts: 4999 Joined: July 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2010,19:01    I'm sure null will enjoy talking to Daniel instead TP:   Quote Why can't we start from a theistic interpretation of data? Why don't you start Daniel? I'm sure others will follow. -------------- I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies". FTK if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand Gordon Mullings

phhht Posts: 38 Joined: Oct. 2010 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2010,20:57        Quote Why can't we start from a theistic interpretation of data? [/quote] Anyone is free to start from any interpretation he wishes.  The trouble is not that a theistic interpretation is wrong.  It's not even wrong.  It's unnecessary. It is desirable to minimize the a priori assumptions before interpreting.  If an assumption is unnecessary, it's best not to make it. You'll note for example that in technical, mathematical, engineering, and scientific publications, there is no appeal to gods (or some unnamed designer).  Not because it's  wrong, but because it is possible to explain the subject without resort to the supernatural (whatever that is). As far as I know, there has never been a case in which an appeal to gods was necessary.  Empirical naturalism suffices without them. -------------- Je n'avais pas besoin de cette hypothese-la. -- Pierre Simon Laplace, explaining the absence of any mention of God in his work

Stanton Posts: 266 Joined: Jan. 2008 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2010,23:46    Quote (Zachriel @ Nov. 12 2010,21:14) Quote (EyeNoTwo @ Nov. 12 2010,11:26) Was that a fluke? There's blenny more where that came from. Lots mola where that came from. But don't ask me, I've got jackfish.

EyeNoTwo Posts: 7 Joined: Aug. 2010 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 14 2010,07:06    You folks can't tell your wrasse from a sole in the sound.....

Zachriel Posts: 2723 Joined: Sep. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 14 2010,08:00    Quote Salvador T. Cordova : Here is a listing of traits of each the individuals in the "population": Individual A: 1. blue eyes 2. fast 3. not too bright 4. red hair Individual B: 1. brown eyes 2. slow 3. extremely intelligent 4. brown hair It turns out a predator kills of Individual B because he is too slow. What happens to the other traits in question (like eye color, hair color, intelligence). Assuming A and B had the opportunity to mate, producing several offspring, there's a good chance that some of their children will be both fast and intelligent, with a mix of the other traits among the siblings. -------------- You never step on the same tard twice—for it's not the same tard and you're not the same person.

Stanton Posts: 266 Joined: Jan. 2008 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 14 2010,09:34    Quote (EyeNoTwo @ Nov. 14 2010,07:06) You folks can't tell your wrasse from a sole in the sound..... Know your plaice!

Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 14 2010,22:27    Hey Telic Thoughts, you're less interesting than fish puns. But you have a ....Pantheon! -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

oldmanintheskydidntdoit Posts: 4999 Joined: July 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 15 2010,03:09    Denial Smith brings  logic to the table: Quote I think we need to study the evidence with an open mind to discover what God did. Like I said, we have lots of hypotheses in the religious world we can test to see how they stand up against the evidence to the contrary. Schindewolf described sudden bursts of evolutionary activity in the fossil record, followed by periods of gradual evolution, finally culminating in lineages that over-evolved into extinction. When I first read that, I thought "It's like a farmer dispersing various kinds of seed to see what takes hold, cultivating what sticks until the land can no longer take it, letting it die off, then repeating the cycle". Um, Denial, God would know in advance what "seed would take hold" so why would it bother in the first place? Null also "clarifies" his position: Quote See, my own attitude is very similar. The only difference, I tend to file evolution and natural selection (though as of late, my confidence in the latter wanes) as 'tools used by a designer'. I reject the idea that evolution, even natural selection, is somehow 'in competition' with actual design for an explanation – put another way, every instance of natural selection is one of artificial selection for all science knows. The same with that typical ID triad of 'design, chance, or necessity'. Since a designer can design through necessity in part, and 'chance' is little more than a contingent outcome (and processes that are contingent can be brought to definite ends by a mind), I have to reject the triad. It's all design, for all science knows. It's amazing that null trusts science so far as to trust the PC he's sat in front of but can't bring himself to believe that "natural selection" is anything but natural despite no evidence. I guess it's why the 9/11 stuff goes down so well at TT, just another "evidence free" topic they can talk about and the lack of evidence is the reason. If they have evidence one way or another they'd have to start kicking people out of the big tent. Of course, they exists plenty of evidence already but from "scientists" who can't be trusted. If Behe ever gets in the lab and rules out a young earth, for example, there will be trouble! Link And null, every instance of natural selection is one of artificial selection by invisible pink unicorns for all science knows. That's real helpful.... -------------- I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies". FTK if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand Gordon Mullings

Thought Provoker Posts: 530 Joined: April 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 22 2010,09:52    In case anyone is interested, I ran across this paper which we may be discussing on TT. Quote Abstract Background:The bacterial flagellum is the most important organelle of motility in bacteria and plays a key role in many bacterial lifestyles, including virulence. The flagellum also provides a paradigm of how hierarchical gene regulation, intricate protein-protein interactions and controlled protein secretion can result in the assembly of a complex multi-protein structure tightly orchestrated in time and space. As if to stress its importance, plants and animals produce receptors specifically dedicated to the recognition of flagella. Aside from motility, the flagellum also moonlights as an adhesion and has been adapted by humans as a tool for peptide display. Flagellar sequence variation constitutes a marker with widespread potential uses for studies of population genetics and phylogeny of bacterial species. Results: We sequenced the complete flagellin gene (flaA) in 18 different species and subspecies of Aeromonas. Sequences ranged in size from 870 (A. allosaccharophila) to 921 nucleotides (A. popoffii). The multiple alignment displayed 924 sites, 66 of which presented alignment gaps. The phylogenetic tree revealed the existence of two groups of species exhibiting different FlaA flagellins (FlaA1 and FlaA2). Maximum likelihood models of codon substitution were used to analyze flaA sequences. Likelihood ratio tests suggested a low variation in selective pressure among lineages, with an ? ratio of less than 1 indicating the presence of purifying selection in almost all cases. Only one site under potential diversifying selection was identified (isoleucine in position 179). However, 17 amino acid positions were inferred as sites that are likely to be under positive selection using the branch-site model. Ancestral reconstruction revealed that these 17 amino acids were among the amino acid changes detected in the ancestral sequence. Conclusion: The models applied to our set of sequences allowed us to determine the possible evolutionary pathway followed by the flaA gene in Aeromonas, suggesting that this gene have probably been evolving independently in the two groups of Aeromonas species since the divergence of a distant common ancestor after one or several episodes of positive selection. Reviewers: This article was reviewed by Alexey Kondrashov, John Logsdon and Olivier Tenaillon (nominated by Laurence D Hurst). http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1745-6150-4-23.pdf

oldmanintheskydidntdoit Posts: 4999 Joined: July 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 22 2010,11:16    Quote (Thought Provoker @ Nov. 22 2010,09:52) In case anyone is interested, I ran across this paper which we may be discussing on TT.   Quote Abstract Background:The bacterial flagellum is the most important organelle of motility in bacteria and plays a key role in many bacterial lifestyles, including virulence. The flagellum also provides a paradigm of how hierarchical gene regulation, intricate protein-protein interactions and controlled protein secretion can result in the assembly of a complex multi-protein structure tightly orchestrated in time and space. As if to stress its importance, plants and animals produce receptors specifically dedicated to the recognition of flagella. Aside from motility, the flagellum also moonlights as an adhesion and has been adapted by humans as a tool for peptide display. Flagellar sequence variation constitutes a marker with widespread potential uses for studies of population genetics and phylogeny of bacterial species. Results: We sequenced the complete flagellin gene (flaA) in 18 different species and subspecies of Aeromonas. Sequences ranged in size from 870 (A. allosaccharophila) to 921 nucleotides (A. popoffii). The multiple alignment displayed 924 sites, 66 of which presented alignment gaps. The phylogenetic tree revealed the existence of two groups of species exhibiting different FlaA flagellins (FlaA1 and FlaA2). Maximum likelihood models of codon substitution were used to analyze flaA sequences. Likelihood ratio tests suggested a low variation in selective pressure among lineages, with an ? ratio of less than 1 indicating the presence of purifying selection in almost all cases. Only one site under potential diversifying selection was identified (isoleucine in position 179). However, 17 amino acid positions were inferred as sites that are likely to be under positive selection using the branch-site model. Ancestral reconstruction revealed that these 17 amino acids were among the amino acid changes detected in the ancestral sequence. Conclusion: The models applied to our set of sequences allowed us to determine the possible evolutionary pathway followed by the flaA gene in Aeromonas, suggesting that this gene have probably been evolving independently in the two groups of Aeromonas species since the divergence of a distant common ancestor after one or several episodes of positive selection. Reviewers: This article was reviewed by Alexey Kondrashov, John Logsdon and Olivier Tenaillon (nominated by Laurence D Hurst). http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1745-6150-4-23.pdf What's the point TP? The abstract contains the word "probably" which means it's just another evolutionary just-so story which can be summarily dismissed, whatever the merits of the argument may be. I can already predict what ID Guy will say, and I'm sure you can too. -------------- I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies". FTK if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand Gordon Mullings

Thought Provoker Posts: 530 Joined: April 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 22 2010,12:31    Actually, JoeG surprised me a little.  He continues to provide entertainment and is a fine representative of the ID Movement. Quote That paper is about one gene. link Yes and SRY is only one gene too. EDIT-spelling

fnxtr Posts: 3504 Joined: June 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 22 2010,12:52    Quote (Thought Provoker @ Nov. 22 2010,10:31) Actually, JoeG suprised me a little.  He continues to provide entertainment and is a fine representative of the ID Movement.   Quote That paper is about one gene. link Yes and SRY is only one gene too. I know a gal with complete androgen insensivity syndrome. All woman minus a uterus. At puberty they took out testes where her ovaries should have been. All because of a variation in the androgen receptor gene.  One gene. -------------- "[A] book said there were 5 trillion witnesses. Who am I supposed to believe, 5 trillion witnesses or you? That shit's, like, ironclad. " -- stevestory "Wow, you must be retarded. I said that CO2 does not trap heat. If it did then it would not cool down at night."  Joe G

olegt Posts: 1405 Joined: Dec. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 22 2010,22:10    Although TT is now mostly a tea-party gathering, there are some not-quite-so boring moments. In the latest thread, nullasalus is conducting a rigorous exercise in mental masturbation, wherein he imagines a naturalistic theory yielding a 6,000-year-old Earth. I kid you not.   Quote Let's say I have a cosmological theory: The universe is only, say.. 6000 years old. Year 0 marks the sudden appearance of planets, galaxies, species, environments, humanity, and time itself. I'm sure this sounds like a familiar story to you – it is (at least a popular variant of) the young-earth creationist position. But as I've just described it, there's another way to tag this idea. That tag is "a naturalistic theory". What I described is entirely open to the modern naturalist – maybe all those things popped into existence uncaused. Maybe I'll posit an additional explanatory mechanism, like a brutely existing multiverse, some mega-Boltzmann fluctuation. Maybe there is some law governing universes, and this just happens to be one way (or THE way) they pop into being. Maybe I don't even have an answer on hand that I prefer – but there's no reason in principle one couldn't eventually avail itself. Positively new age-y. The guy is some sort of an armchair philosopher whose understanding of science can be summarized in one word: dismal. He finds a passage in Feynman's Lectures on Physics that he thinks is evidence that we don't understand what energy is:   Quote It is important to realize that in physics today, we have no knowledge of what energy is. We do not have a picture that energy comes in little blobs of a definite amount. It is not that way. However, there are formulas for calculating some numerical quantity and when we add it together it gives "28"—always the same number. It is an abstract thing in that it does not tell us the mechanisms or the reasons for the various formulas. What he does not apparently realize is that this passage was addressed to freshman students (this is from Ch. 4 in Volume 1 of the lectures). Feynman was being coy. We do know what energy is but the explanation cannot be unloaded on freshmen, it requires some learning. At the level of freshman physics, the concept of energy is indeed confusing: there are all kinds of energy and it's not clear whence this concept came. But skip to the end of the course (Ch. 15 in Volume 3) and Feynman tells you where energy conservation comes from.  From a symmetry.  Every symmetry in nature is associated with a conserved quantity. That was realized by Emmy Noether, a brilliant mathematician, in the context of classical mechanics, where the connection is not easy to understand. The direct relation between symmetries and conservation laws is much more explicit in quantum physics, and that is the reason we have to wait until the end of an introductory physics sequence to tell students about it. It is the symmetry with respect to translations in time that is responsible for the existence of a conserved quantity we call energy. (Likewise, the symmetry with respect to translations in space leads to the conservation of momentum and the symmetry with respect to rotations yields conservation of angular momentum.) So no, energy is not a mysterious quantity that no one understands, it is a reflection of the uniformity of time. But you can't expect armchair philosophers to know that. -------------- If you are not: Galapagos Finch please Logout »

Thought Provoker Posts: 530 Joined: April 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 23 2010,01:45    Oleg, Thank you for the explanation. It saved me the trouble of trying to sort it out myself.

Thought Provoker Posts: 530 Joined: April 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 27 2010,13:18    Congratulations, Zachriel. It looks like you have made such an impression at Telic Thoughts, you are no longer just Banned, you are now a person-who-shall-not-be-named. In a comment concerning the WWII bombing of Dresden, I said something similar to "It's too bad Zachriel is banned because he probably would have something interesting to say on this". After which my comment got stuck in the spam queue. When ask for help, Bradford explained...   Quote TP, the comment was stuck in the spam queue. Reason being the last part of the comment directed at the banning policy. I'd advise you to repost the otherwise productive comment without the last part. link So I checked by sending a comment asking if the name Zachiel was added to the spam filter. It got stuck in the spam filter too. ETA - changed "problem" to "probably"

Lou FCD Posts: 5455 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 27 2010,13:21    Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Nov. 15 2010,04:09) Denial Smith brings  logic to the table: That statement alone makes my head hurt. -------------- “Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas? Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

Zachriel Posts: 2723 Joined: Sep. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 27 2010,20:29    Quote (Thought Provoker @ Nov. 27 2010,13:18) Congratulations, Zachriel. It looks like you have made such an impression at Telic Thoughts, you are no longer just Banned, you are now a person-who-shall-not-be-named. We accept this honor in sincere tribute to all the fallen heroes {sniff} who have gone before us. -------------- You never step on the same tard twice—for it's not the same tard and you're not the same person.

Thought Provoker Posts: 530 Joined: April 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 27 2010,22:37    BTW, the comment was basically highlighting how Air Chief Marshal Sir Douglas Claude Strathern Evill was involved.  Apparently, even the papers at the time noted how appropriate his name was. I was planning on bringing in what I know about this, but not any more. Bradford has made his decision for all TTers.

Art Posts: 69 Joined: Dec. 2002 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 29 2010,13:51    Quote (Thought Provoker @ Nov. 27 2010,13:18) Congratulations, Zachriel. It looks like you have made such an impression at Telic Thoughts, you are no longer just Banned, you are now a person-who-shall-not-be-named. In a comment concerning the WWII bombing of Dresden, I said something similar to "It's too bad Zachriel is banned because he probably would have something interesting to say on this". After which my comment got stuck in the spam queue. When ask for help, Bradford explained...     Quote TP, the comment was stuck in the spam queue. Reason being the last part of the comment directed at the banning policy. I'd advise you to repost the otherwise productive comment without the last part. link So I checked by sending a comment asking if the name Zachiel was added to the spam filter. It got stuck in the spam filter too. ETA - changed "problem" to "probably" I'd hate to think that I am the reason no one can comment on art at TT.

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