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Antievolution.org Discussion Board > From the Panda's Thumb > After the Bar Closes... > Lend me your brains.

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Woodbine Posts: 1218 Joined: June 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2011,16:00    I've had this argument running around my head for a few years, now. I don't know if it's original (unlikely) but at least I don't recall seeing it being made. You put a man and a woman in a box. Feed and water them and 9 months later you now have a man, woman and a baby. Now by any version of 'CSI' you want to employ (we'll assume its validity) we discover that the room now contains a bucket load more CSI in it than before. CSI, as we all know is an indicator of intelligent jiggery-pokery. But we know that no 'intelligence' went into the production of that baby. The process was entirely automatic. So regardless of whether mum, dad and their reproductive equipment were designed, does not the purely mechanical generation of this baby refute in principle the notion that only intelligence causes can account for such a whopping increase in CSI?

fusilier Posts: 252 Joined: Feb. 2003 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2011,16:16    Since the soul is infused in the body directly by God at conception, any and all CSI is a product of the Ultimate Intelligence. Therefore Dembski wins. </UD> -------------- fusilier James 2:24

OgreMkV Posts: 3668 Joined: Oct. 2009 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2011,16:57    Actually, you also have to provide them with food and water.  As the baby is conceived, develops, and is born, the total entropy of the system will decrease. The decrease in entropy from the organization of the baby will be less than the increase in entropy from the consumption, use, and waste from the food that goes into the parents and baby. Presumably, the information content is affected in a similar way... depending on which system you're talking about.   If you consider just the genetics of living things, then the information has increased.  Certainly the amount of information in human cells increased.  But is that increase more than the destruction of all the other information in the food? That's actually an interesting question. Of course, since the ID folks never define information anyway, it's all moot (note correct spelling). -------------- Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims. http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

Woodbine Posts: 1218 Joined: June 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2011,17:12    Quote (OgreMkV @ Nov. 05 2011,22:57) If you consider just the genetics of living things, then the information has increased.  Certainly the amount of information in human cells increased.  But is that increase more than the destruction of all the other information in the food? That's what I was thinking. Sure a whole bunch of food goes into the room but it doesn't touch the genome; it just fuels it. Extend the experiment to 50 years and there's now a whole gaggle of people milling about, all brought about automatically from the original Adam an Eve. The scientists are needing new CSI-meters there's that much in there!

Occam's Aftershave Posts: 5287 Joined: Feb. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2011,18:42    Someone who still has posting privileges at the UD loony bin should ask them: If after Noah's Flood there were only 8 people, where did all the CSI found in the genomes of the 7 billion people we have today come from? -------------- "CO2 can't re-emit any trapped heat unless all the molecules point the right way" "All the evidence supports Creation baraminology" "If it required a mind, planning and design, it isn't materialistic." "Jews and Christians are Muslims." - Joke "Sharon" Gallien, world's dumbest YEC.

Henry J Posts: 5786 Joined: Mar. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2011,21:36    Procreating while locked in a box doesn't strike me as intelligent. Henry

noncarborundum Posts: 320 Joined: Jan. 2009 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2011,22:33    Quote (Occam's Aftershave @ Nov. 05 2011,18:42) Someone who still has posting privileges at the UD loony bin should ask them: If after Noah's Flood there were only 8 people, where did all the CSI found in the genomes of the 7 billion people we have today come from? You know the answer to that one:  front-loading. -------------- "The . . . um . . . okay, I was genetically selected for blue eyes.  I know there are brown eyes, because I've observed them, but I can't do it.  Okay?  So . . . um . . . coz that's real genetic selection, not the nonsense Giberson and the others are talking about." - DO'L

OgreMkV Posts: 3668 Joined: Oct. 2009 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2011,22:46    Quote (Henry J @ Nov. 05 2011,21:36) Procreating while locked in a box doesn't strike me as intelligent. Henry What else would there be to do? Actually, I think this would be a fantastic experiment. We all know the offspring would have about 600 mutations (IIRC... anyway, we know the expected number). We do a detailed DNA sequencing of the parents, then we do one of the offpsring. Then we can look to see exactly what mutations occurred and if they would be out of the norm for standard genetics.  Then we can examine the box for signs of designer tampering. -------------- Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims. http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

Kristine Posts: 3061 Joined: Sep. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 07 2011,13:55    Quote (noncarborundum @ Nov. 05 2011,22:33) Quote (Occam's Aftershave @ Nov. 05 2011,18:42) Someone who still has posting privileges at the UD loony bin should ask them: If after Noah's Flood there were only 8 people, where did all the CSI found in the genomes of the 7 billion people we have today come from? You know the answer to that one:  front-loading. Exactly. It takes ID to create all the flagella for those bacteria in that baby. Then it can develop on its own. Or something like that. -------------- Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip? AtBC Poet Laureate "I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive "Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

Erasmus, FCD Posts: 6349 Joined: June 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 07 2011,15:28    Quote (Henry J @ Nov. 05 2011,22:36) Procreating while locked in a box doesn't strike me as intelligent. Henry yeah but if you tried it then you'd know what all the fuss was about -------------- You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

Schroedinger's Dog Posts: 1692 Joined: Jan. 2009 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 07 2011,16:56    Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ Nov. 07 2011,21:28) Quote (Henry J @ Nov. 05 2011,22:36) Procreating while locked in a box doesn't strike me as intelligent. Henry yeah but if you tried it then you'd know what all the fuss was about Oooh, SNAP! Beside that, the main flow of information would come, as mentioned above from the exchange of "consumables" (O2, Co2, nutrients, heat generated by the bodies, the dude starting eating the box because fuck you... Many inputs in there). I won't even start about the smell in that box. Is that CSI? -------------- "Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G "I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis "The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

Quack Posts: 1961 Joined: May 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 08 2011,04:23    There is of course the problem of insulating the box against magic. -------------- Rocks have no biology.               Robert Byers.

Southstar Posts: 150 Joined: Nov. 2011 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 08 2011,06:25    Hello everyone, I'm not sure if this is the right place to post, and actually I tried putting in a new subject post and it won't allow me. I have some naging questions to which i can't find answers. regarding the mecanics of evolution theory. May I post them here Thanks Martina -------------- "Cows who know a moose when they see one will do infinitely better than a cow that pairs with a moose because they cannot see the difference either." Gary Gaulin

Woodbine Posts: 1218 Joined: June 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 08 2011,06:40    I'll open a new thread for you.

Kristine Posts: 3061 Joined: Sep. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 08 2011,10:00    Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ Nov. 07 2011,15:28) Quote (Henry J @ Nov. 05 2011,22:36) Procreating while locked in a box doesn't strike me as intelligent. Henry yeah but if you tried it then you'd know what all the fuss was about Says you. You can be the womb and the breast, m'kay? I'll be the father. -------------- Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip? AtBC Poet Laureate "I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive "Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

Henry J Posts: 5786 Joined: Mar. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 08 2011,10:11    Quote (Kristine @ Nov. 08 2011,09:00) Says you. You can be the womb and the breast, m'kay? I'll be the father. I'm inclined to doubt the effectiveness of that approach...

Woodbine Posts: 1218 Joined: June 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 08 2011,10:14    Quote (Kristine @ Nov. 08 2011,16:00) Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Nov. 07 2011,15:28)   Quote (Henry J @ Nov. 05 2011,22:36) Procreating while locked in a box doesn't strike me as intelligent. Henry yeah but if you tried it then you'd know what all the fuss was about Says you. You can be the womb and the breast, m'kay? I'll be the father. Get out of my box you pervert ! THIS IS SCIENCE!!!!1

Henry J Posts: 5786 Joined: Mar. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 08 2011,10:22    Think outside the box?

OgreMkV Posts: 3668 Joined: Oct. 2009 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 08 2011,10:32    I guess the real question is: If you put an atom of a radioactive isotope connected to a counter connected to a large vial of deadly gas and then didn't open the box during the experiment... what happens to the information content of the box? -------------- Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims. http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

Henry J Posts: 5786 Joined: Mar. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 08 2011,10:47    I have insufficient data to answer that question...

Erasmus, FCD Posts: 6349 Joined: June 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 08 2011,10:55    Quote (Kristine @ Nov. 08 2011,11:00) Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Nov. 07 2011,15:28) Quote (Henry J @ Nov. 05 2011,22:36) Procreating while locked in a box doesn't strike me as intelligent. Henry yeah but if you tried it then you'd know what all the fuss was about Says you. You can be the womb and the breast, m'kay? I'll be the father. ;) yeah daddy locked up in the box has it made, right.  probably gets cigarette breaks.  kristine if anyone was gonna impregnate me while i was locked in a box i would want to be you -------------- You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

Erasmus, FCD Posts: 6349 Joined: June 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 08 2011,10:56    Quote (Woodbine @ Nov. 08 2011,11:14) Quote (Kristine @ Nov. 08 2011,16:00)   Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Nov. 07 2011,15:28)   Quote (Henry J @ Nov. 05 2011,22:36) Procreating while locked in a box doesn't strike me as intelligent. Henry yeah but if you tried it then you'd know what all the fuss was about Says you. You can be the womb and the breast, m'kay? I'll be the father. ;) Get out of my box you pervert ! THIS IS SCIENCE!!!!1 :angry: sorry i will quit doing these sinful things to your box that probably did not change the FSCI of the system unless it did then not by much or maybe a little bit more or less -------------- You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

Kristine Posts: 3061 Joined: Sep. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 08 2011,12:53    Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Nov. 08 2011,10:55)   Quote (Kristine @ Nov. 08 2011,11:00)   Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Nov. 07 2011,15:28)     Quote (Henry J @ Nov. 05 2011,22:36) Procreating while locked in a box doesn't strike me as intelligent. Henry yeah but if you tried it then you'd know what all the fuss was about Says you. You can be the womb and the breast, m'kay? I'll be the father. yeah daddy locked up in the box has it made, right.  probably gets cigarette breaks.  kristine if anyone was gonna impregnate me while i was locked in a box i would want to be you Oh, yeah? Well, I probably can't make little shimmyers anyway. Don't be hurt - just please be John Hurt! Look, this could have been a much more egalitarian question: You have a space ship, 1st officer gets jumped by a face-hugger, brings it into the ship. (Okay, more info introduced at this point.) Face-hugger dies and sloughs off (less info - back to starting point? No, because...), then alienbaby erupts from 1st officer's stomach and zooms across the table screaming "Momma!" and disappears. It subsequently kills or impregnates other crew members, while Ripley is running around and can't find her cat, and Mother is barking at her to hurry up. What's the total amount of information of the crew before Brett buys it? And does Ash (teh weasel) count? -------------- Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip? AtBC Poet Laureate "I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive "Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

Henry J Posts: 5786 Joined: Mar. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 08 2011,13:03    Chest, not stomach.

Kristine Posts: 3061 Joined: Sep. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 08 2011,14:10    Quote (Henry J @ Nov. 08 2011,13:03) Chest, not stomach. In the extra features on the DVD they say stomach. Which makes sense, since the hugger had something down his throat. -------------- Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip? AtBC Poet Laureate "I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive "Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

Henry J Posts: 5786 Joined: Mar. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 08 2011,14:29    Huh. From what I recall, what they showed in the movie sure looked like chest. But, yeah, if the egg was poked down the throat, for it to be the stomach would seem more logical. (Not to mention saving the trouble of getting those pesky ribs out of the way.) (Otoh, what does logic have to do with movie scripting?)

Robin Posts: 1431 Joined: Sep. 2009 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 08 2011,15:06    Well, xenomorphs (from those movies) incubate in the stomach, but when it's ready to leave it just starts chewing its way out. It really doesn't have a clue what the shortest route is and really doesn't care. Keep in mind that given the incubation orientation (head curled over body, mouth towards host's lower esophageal sphincter) it kind of makes sense that most of the creatures move upwards and out. What I don't get is why they generally come through the sternum or rib cage, but I'm betting it's a movie thing. (/nerd off) Oh yes...I am that geeky about Alien... -------------- we IDists rule in design for the flagellum and cilium largely because they do look designed.  Bilbo The only reason you reject Thor is because, like a cushion, you bear the imprint of the biggest arse that sat on you. Louis

Schroedinger's Dog Posts: 1692 Joined: Jan. 2009 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 09 2011,03:32    Robin: I think the exit path may be a way to ensure the host dies. Many theories have been brought forth that the Xenomorphs are biological weapons. They don't kill to feed (apparently, they feed on metal, which provides material for their shells and acid blood). In this regard, it makes sense that they are "programmed" to cause maximum damage at every stage of their life cycle, which is as such (from memory of my Aliens RPG years): Acheronis Larva: Face-Hugger Acheronis Nympha: Chest-Burster Acheronis Pungent: Soldier Alien Acheronis Regina: Queen Alien. Of note, Acheronis Pungent can also lay eggs if no Regina is around, as demonstrated in a cut scene of the first movie where Ripley comes upon an infected Dallas. (/nerd off too) -------------- "Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G "I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis "The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

Kristine Posts: 3061 Joined: Sep. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 09 2011,08:04    Having thus derailed this thread, I ask again: does Ash contribute any information? -------------- Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip? AtBC Poet Laureate "I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive "Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

OgreMkV Posts: 3668 Joined: Oct. 2009 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 09 2011,08:17    Quote (Kristine @ Nov. 09 2011,08:04) Having thus derailed this thread, I ask again: does Ash contribute any information? :) Yes, but he was designed, so that just further supports ID. -------------- Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims. http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

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