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-Antievolution.org Discussion Board +--Forum: After the Bar Closes... +---Topic: Dover Dithers Over Donations started by Wesley R. Elsberry Posted by: Wesley R. Elsberry on Mar. 20 2005,10:19 This thread is for discussion of the Panda's Thumb post on this topic. Posted by: "Rev Dr" Lenny Flank on Mar. 20 2005,11:16 Just two things to mention: (1) the book donation was done by the **entire DebunkCreation email list**, not by me. Members from all over the US, UK, Canada, and Sweden donated books and/or money to make the donation possible. Their collective efforts should be acknowledged. (2) There's nothing preventing Pandas Thumb members from donating the two additional books that are suggested here (hint hint, nudge nudge). I would VERY much like to see the Dover Board's headaches increase, exponentially. Posted by: KelvinKean on Mar. 20 2005,11:40 Lenny, I would be willing to donate copies of both "Why Intelligent Design Fails" and "Creationism Trojan Horse" to the Dover High School library, but being unwillling to give my own copies I'd first have to order them. I'll have them both delivered to my home, about a two-hour drive from Dover, and then repackaged for shipping to Dover, so I can track the UPS delivery like you did. Rather than my searching the Dover SD website for where and to whom to ship them, can you give me the information on this board or email it directly to me? Kelvin Kean Elverson PA Posted by: "Rev Dr" Lenny Flank on Mar. 20 2005,11:55 The address for the Dover Library is: Dover Senior High School Library 46 West Canal St Dover PA 17315 (717) 292-3671 If you do send anything, let the press know about it. You can reach the York Dispatch newsroom at: news@yorkdispatch.com and the York Daily Record newsroom at: news@ydr.com The more press coverage it gets, the more pressure is brought to bear on the school board. We also want to force the Board Prez to keep talking to the press as much as possible --- I have found that if you keep the fundies talking long enough, sooner or later they will ALWAYS metaphorically shoot themselves in the head. They are by far their own worst enemies. I suggest you send it with "signature required" -- the board initially denied to the press that they had ever received any donation from us. If you send it UPS, you can request specifically that they require a signature upon delivery -- if you don't specifically request it, it's up to the driver's discretion whether or not to have anyone sign for it. I should also perhaps point out that I do *not* recommend such donations as a general strategy in fighting IDers. In this particular case, however, we have a very specific aim in mind --- we quite frankly expect the board to reject all such donations, and we'd **very much** like to see them forced to explain to the judge that (1) they are concerned only with "presenting all sides of a scientific controversy" and (2) are not trying to advance any particular viewpoint, but (3) they don't want any material in their library that is critical of ID "theory". It's not the sort of thing *I* would like to find myself trying to argue . . . . Posted by: "Rev Dr" Lenny Flank on Mar. 20 2005,11:58 By the way, the decision about the donation may be made quite soon, perhaps before their April 4 board meeting. My suggestion would be that you go ahead and send your own copies, and then order your own replacements for them. There might not be time before the decision is made for Amazon or whoever to send them to you and then forward them to Dover. Posted by: tptesar on Mar. 20 2005,12:25 Of course the library will now be flooded with contributions from creationists/IDers once word gets out. I think you should have pre-empted them by including creationist/ID books in your donation. This would demonstrate how willing you are to examine different views. Posted by: "Rev Dr" Lenny Flank on Mar. 20 2005,12:38 Regarding more creationist donations: Let them try. <shrug> It's illegal to teach creationism. Period. Me, I'd like to see the Raelians donate some books. It'll show everyone just how nutty the IDers really are. Posted by: Michael on Mar. 20 2005,13:30 ---------------------QUOTE------------------- Of course the library will now be flooded with contributions from creationists/IDers once word gets out. I think you should have pre-empted them by including creationist/ID books in your donation. This would demonstrate how willing you are to examine different views. ---------------------QUOTE------------------- Lenny's reply was: ---------------------QUOTE------------------- Regarding more creationist donations: Let them try. <shrug> It's illegal to teach creationism. Period. Me, I'd like to see the Raelians donate some books. It'll show everyone just how nutty the IDers really are. ---------------------QUOTE------------------- I don't think that this view has any legal leg to stand on. Teaching creationism in science class is illegal. Having books on creationism in the school library, especially one from donations is not illegal. Indeed, it is very likely that they might already have some. And indeed one can find creationist books in almost any public library in the country. Indeed if they accept the donation from your list then they will almost certainly accept antievolutionary donations as well. And what do we have to be afraid of? Well other than the kid who only bothers to read the creationist side that is? (That kid was probably not likely to join us anyways given the current education system.) If the kids really do use their access to real science as well as reading the creationist clamtrap then in the end we win. Lets not forget that "teach the controversy" is nothing more than "lie to the kids by telling them there is a controversy in science over whether or not evolution is true" or worse "teach them that evolution in trouble and is almost certainly false." Such as that can't afford for the kids to get a real presentation of evolution and the evidence for it. Asimov once said something to the effect that creationists don't want equal time, they want all the time there is. That is still the case a decade-in-a-half after he died due to a virus (HIV from a blood transfusion) which appeared, for the first time, relatively recently from a historic point of view. Posted by: Dr.GH on Mar. 20 2005,14:41 ---------------------QUOTE------------------- Even Buell doesn’t recommend the book. “If they would have contacted me, I would not have encouraged the people in Dover to use it because of other tools that are more up-to-date,” he said. “The idea of intelligent design and the evidence that supports it has gotten extraordinarily more strong than when it was originally printed.” As for the criticisms that the book misrepresents the theory of evolution, Buell disagreed. He said the main point is valid — that the theory of evolution’s basic principal of life evolving through natural selection and genetic mutation isn’t possible. “The authors and we feel those are the most powerful arguments,” he said. John West of the Seattle-based Discovery Institute, which is now at the forefront of the intelligent-design movement, said his organization didn’t have anything to do with “Pandas” and had little to say about it.from < Furor breathes new life into aging ‘Pandas’ > ---------------------QUOTE------------------- I think we can see the DI response in general here to the probable pending loss in Dover: ~~The Dover result only related to using "Of Pandas and People" and can not be generalized beyond that to the teaching of ID. "Of Pandas and People" was a very dated book, even the publisher acknowledged is no longer representitive of the vibrant research sucksesses of Intellignent Design.~~ Or words to that effect. Posted by: Wesley R. Elsberry on Mar. 20 2005,14:50 Well, hopefully the lawyers suing the school district will make a good attempt to tie up all of the antievolution espoused by the Dover School District into a package that all gets ruled against. That would cover more than just Of Pandas and People. Any signs of when The Design of Life (aka Of Pandas and People Third Edition) might hit the presses? Dembski posted stuff from it last year; those excerpts don't look like a big advance over the original. Posted by: "Rev Dr" Lenny Flank on Mar. 20 2005,15:18 Wesley wrote: Well, hopefully the lawyers suing the school district will make a good attempt to tie up all of the antievolution espoused by the Dover School District into a package that all gets ruled against. That would cover more than just Of Pandas and People. -------------------------------- Right. Remember -- the suit against Dover isn't just over "Pandas" -- it's also over the statement that was read to the classrooms regarding the "alternative scientific theory of intelligent design". So the fight in Dover is over whether or not "intelligent design theory" *itself* is science and belongs in a classroom, or whether ID "theory" just illegally advances religion and does NOT belong in a classroom. Once the court rules that ID is NOT science and is nothing more than advancing religion, then it's "game over". No matter WHAT the IDers publish, the entire "theory" itself will be illegal to teach, just like creation "science". At that point, the IDers will no longer have any option left but to retreat solely to a "something somewhere might be wrong with evolution" argument --- and that one has already been shot down in Cobb County as being nothing more than religiously motivated doctrine. The fundies are very rapidly running out of options. . Posted by: bigdakine on Mar. 20 2005,22:10 Heck, I'm thinking of sending them some old gneisses I have. THey can use them in Earth Science class. In addtion to books, some part of the real world might be nice too. Posted by: Dr.GH on Mar. 21 2005,01:06 Howdy, That would be nice of you, but they would probably think that you had rocks in your head. Posted by: Dr. J on Mar. 21 2005,08:51 Or had gotten schist-faced. Thank you! I'll be here all epoch! Posted by: joe on Mar. 21 2005,09:28 I live about 10 miles from Dover (in an adjacent school district). I read about the book donation in the local paper, and I reserved judgment on the comments made by the district -- usually there is something lost in the translation between someone's brain, their mouth, the reporter's ear, the reporter's pen, the editor's brain, the reader's brain, etc. It's all-too-frequently like the old schoolyard game of "Gossip." Things get lost or altered en route from one place to another in the communication process. That being said, I was disturbed enough about what I did read to want to find out what books were actually being donated and what books had to be reviewed to make sure that they weren't from some "hate group." Stephen Hawking, Richard Dawkins. C'mon! These guys are regular cross-burners! Hawking, in particular, is known for his gratuitous use of the term "black" hole as opposed to the commonly-accepted "african american" hole. The district is so obviously stuck in a corner on this ID issue that they don't know what to do. They are clearly incapable/unwilling to simply say "we are wrong, let's go home and call it a day." They are suffering the wages of the sin of pride. My wife and I have a theory that they are simply engaging in this elaborate charade in order to discourage families with children from moving to the district. This ID bogeyman issue is being used to lower the educational costs of the district by lowering the number of school-age children in the district without actually impacting the curriculum in any significant way. The costs of the lawsuit will pale in comparison to the costs avoided by not having to educate an additional 50 to 100 children over the next 18 years. Call me crazy, but I think Dover may be having us all on. And they'll get a world-class library out of it, to boot. Posted by: Dr.GH on Mar. 21 2005,15:42 Well, joe. At least your theory makes sense. Posted by: "Rev Dr" Lenny Flank on Mar. 21 2005,17:58 That being said, I was disturbed enough about what I did read to want to find out what books were actually being donated and what books had to be reviewed to make sure that they weren't from some "hate group." Stephen Hawking, Richard Dawkins. C'mon! These guys are regular cross-burners! --------------------- Not to mention the "terrorists" and "pornography" . . . I found it amusing that the Board declared that they needed to review books by Dawkins, Hawking, Gould, Eldredge and such for, uh, "scientific accuracy" . . . I wonder who they plan to have review the books for "scientific accuracy"? The Thomas More Law Center? No WONDER everyone thinks they are idiots. <sigh> As I've long said, fundies are their own worst enemy. Keep 'em talking long enough, and they will metaphorically shoot themselves in the head, every time. <shrug> The more often these dolts talk to the press, the better it is for us. Posted by: Michael on Mar. 22 2005,18:46
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