The whole truth
Posts: 1554
Joined: Jan. 2012
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| Quote (utidjian @ May 24 2012,23:32) | | Quote (The whole truth @ May 24 2012,21:14) |
FYI: I read some of the "Elevatorgate" stuff awhile back but haven't kept up with it and I don't remember who "Abbie" is (by name anyway). Based on what I read, my opinion is that the woman in the elevator is a paranoid drama queen.... |
[snippage]
Based on what you have written here you didn't read enough. Quite understandable because there is SO much to read. You would have to dedicate a sizable proportion of a week reading for hours a day to just get the basics.
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I can't imagine why a woman would get bent out of shape just because a guy invites her to his room for coffee, or a drink, or whatever it was that he offered.
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You wouldn't have to "imagine why" if you had read/listened to what RW actually originally said about the incident. In case you were wondering here is the original post and video that started it all:
LINK
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It's no wonder that many men won't approach women with friendly offers, even though many women wonder why men won't approach them, and want men to approach them (well, certain men anyway).
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As you can see, if you listen to what she says, it was not a "friendly offer" from her point of view.
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Does anyone remember the skit on SNL with Tom Brady in briefs?
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No. Is it relevant in this context?
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I can't help but wonder if the woman in the elevator would have been upset if the guy had been Tom Brady, or Pierce Brosnan, or Brad Pitt. And if it had been one of those guys or someone similar, and she had reacted the way she did, I wonder how different all the talk about the situation would be.
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Again, you don't have to "wonder" because that isn't what happened. Is there a point to wondering what would have happened if one of those people you mentioned was the guy on the elevator?
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Overall, to me, she made a huge deal out of nothing, and should have kept the whole thing to herself. If that's all it takes for her to be offended and to make a public stink about it, then she has lead a very sheltered life and needs to get out more.
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All RW did was mention the incident and say, “Guys, don’t do that.” It took all of, what, 30 seconds? a minute? in an eight minute video which was little more than a sort of two-weeks-in-review update.
RW gets out plenty. She is invited to talks, conferences, and conventions all around the world all the time.
| Quote | | And since I'm stating some opinions I might as well state my opinion about FTB, or at least on what the initials "FTB" stand for: Banning people JUST for disagreeing is bullshit, and while I agree with some of the things PZ Meyers says I think that he is a hypocrite, a jerk, and a drama queen in some important ways. |
If you are talking about the banning of Schroedinger's Dog then, as I recall, it wasn't just a matter of disagreeing. I can't find a link to the thread of when the banhammer came down on SD but I think if you read it you would see why he was banned.
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"As you can see, if you listen to what she says, it was not a "friendly offer" from her point of view."
Well, my point of view is that her point of view is ridiculous.
"No. Is it relevant in this context?"
I think it is. If the guy had been one of the ones I mentioned or someone similar I think that she would have bragged about the situation instead of saying "Guys, don't do that". And like I said before, they were just WORDS, unless you can show evidence of the guy in the elevator doing more than just saying something. Can you?
"Again, you don't have to "wonder" because that isn't what happened. Is there a point to wondering what would have happened if one of those people you mentioned was the guy on the elevator? "
See my comment above.
"All RW did was mention the incident and say, “Guys, don’t do that.” It took all of, what, 30 seconds? a minute? in an eight minute video which was little more than a sort of two-weeks-in-review update."
Precisely WHY should guys not do that? And what exactly did the guy do? Are you saying that men should not ever talk to women in elevators, or ask women if they would like to come to their room for coffee, or ask women any other question that the woman MIGHT take as a proposition for sex or something else that the woman MIGHT think is inappropriate? For fuck's sake, they were just WORDS.
Did the guy whip out his dick and demand that she have sex with him? Did he grab her and force her to his room? Did he brandish a weapon? Did he even say anything about sex? If it had been the other way around and SHE were the one doing the asking, would your perception and opinion about the 'alleged' situation be the same?
During my life I have been asked by some women if I wanted to have or meet for a drink or some other similar offer, and sometimes I got the impression that they had something more than the drink or other offer on their mind. I have also been bluntly propositioned for SEX by women on more than one occasion. Did I take offense and bring it up in a public way? NO. Would I say that women shouldn't do that? NO.
Let me tell you a true story about something that once happened to me. I was in a bar in Wyoming about 20 years ago and was talking with a couple that I slightly knew when another guy, whom they knew, and who was quite drunk, joined us. I was sober.
The drunk guy was going on and on about how hot his girlfriend was and that she was going to join him there any minute. Before long I heard the door of the bar open and looked over to see a tall, good looking blond walking in. I said something like "Check that out", whereupon the drunk guy said "Yeah, that's mine."
The blond joined us (she was sober too) and the conversation was pretty much dominated by the drunk guy being fairly obnoxious. Before long it was apparent to me that she was looking me over in a way that indicated more than a passing interest and was not thrilled to be there with the drunk guy. After only about 20 minutes or so I got up and said that I was taking my leave and going down the street to another bar. At that point the blond asked "Which bar?" which, to me, was a clear message that she was going to show up there, although, frankly, I didn't care one way or another. At NO point did I do or say ANYTHING to lead her to think that I was interested in her. For all she knew I was happily married or gay or just didn't like tall blonds.
The other bar was just a few blocks away and I was walking to it, and as I came to the street where the bar was I saw a car coming across the intersection and then the car pulled up and blocked my way. Guess who was in it?
She rolled down the window and I asked "What are you doing?" and she said "Looking for you." and then she asked me if she could buy me a drink in the bar I was headed to, which was across the street. I said "sure".
So, we went into the bar, had a drink, maybe two (don't remember exactly), chatted about this and that (NOTHING SEXUAL) and then I said I have to go. She asked me if I wanted a ride to my car, which was parked back by the other bar and I said "No, that's okay, I can walk." She persisted and kept trying to get me to accept a ride, and I figured why not and said I'd accept the ride. We got into her car, whereupon I still did NOTHING to show any sexual interest in her, and then she proceeded to ask me if I wanted to come home with her for the night. I paused for a few seconds and then said "No, not tonight." She asked "Why not?!" I said "Well, we just met and I don't know you well enough."
It was obvious that she was shocked, and a bit pissed, so I said "Tell you what, let's go out on a date tomorrow night, start out sober (if not stay that way) and just have a good time dancing and so on and at the end of the night if you still want me to come home with you you can ask and we'll see." She said "Oh, we'll see?!" and it was obvious that she was not taking it well. So I said calmly "Yeah, we'll see, as in you can ask or not and I can say yes or no. In other words we can both make up our own minds." That seemed to cool her off a bit but she was obviously still surprised and not very happy about it.
She sat there across the bench seat in the car staring at me for a couple of minutes and then asked "Can I at least have a kiss?" I said "okay" and leaned over and kissed her. I didn't touch her with my hands or grope her or do anything other than the kiss, and then I just sat back across the seat against the door. She looked surprised and befuddled and then said "No one has ever said no to me. In fact, I've never had to ask, and I've never even had to ask for a kiss." I said "Well, you never met me."
Now, there are a couple of points here. First, I wasn't 'offended' by her questions or offers, but she was offended by my refusal to go home with her and that she had to ask for a kiss. Of course no one forced her to ask but she 'felt' that she 'had' to ask. Another point is that she, a woman, and a good looking one at that, was not used to hearing the word "no" and it clearly irritated her. If I hadn't suggested the next night date and explained my "We'll see" comment she would have been totally pissed and ordered me out of the car.
If you think for one minute that all men are obnoxious when it comes to making offers to women, try saying no to a woman who makes an offer to you, and especially a sexual offer.
Believe it or not, I know a guy who says that it's more fun to watch the pissed off way women react to the word "no" than it is to actually go home with them. I know what he means.
So, should I have been offended by the blond's offer to come home with her? Should I have made a public issue of it? (Remember, at that point she had known me for an hour or so and still had no idea whether I might be married, gay, or just didn't like blonds.) Should I have done so when other women have offered me something, including sex? Does my being a guy matter? If so, why exactly? You have heard the terms 'equality' and 'women's lib', haven't you? I know I have, plenty of times, and not in a calm way many of the times. The words "I'm equal, I don't need a man, I can take care of myself, this is the 90s." will ring in my ears forever.
If women want to be thought of 'equally' and be treated 'equally' they need to STOP being two-faced, demanding, paranoid, easily offended prima donnas who want everything that men may have or achieve and expect special treatment too. Equality is EQUALITY, not special favors, and most women say that they want equality in everything, not just the workplace. Some women have figured it out but many have not.
My main point is that there's nothing wrong with asking questions or making offers, unless a PERSON (male or female) won't take no for the answer. If I were to get pissed every time someone asks me something or offers me something, including sex, I'd sure be pissed a lot. If I don't want something or don't want to do something I am very able and willing to say no, and I don't need any support from anyone else to do so. I can stand up for myself.
And if anyone thinks that I'm a card carrying woman hater, think again. I have a grown daughter that I love more than anything and who I raised to be fair and to stand up for herself when necessary, and I'm ALL FOR equality as long as it actually is EQUALITY. And if you think that the situation in the elevator and the subsequent big stink about it has nothing to do with equality, you have a lot to learn.
By the way, has the guy in the elevator ever told his side of the story? I don't remember if I ever saw his version.
Almost forgot:
"RW gets out plenty. She is invited to talks, conferences, and conventions all around the world all the time."
Big deal. That has nothing to do with what I'm saying.
"If you are talking about the banning of Schroedinger's Dog then, as I recall, it wasn't just a matter of disagreeing. I can't find a link to the thread of when the banhammer came down on SD but I think if you read it you would see why he was banned."
SD isn't the only one who has been banned by PZ. Maybe SD was banned legitimately and maybe he wasn't, but PZ takes joy in sending people who don't kiss his ass to his so-called dungeon. And it's not just the bannings.
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Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. - Jesus in Matthew 10:34
But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. -Jesus in Luke 19:27
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