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  Topic: Thoughts on Hell, for Kevin Miller's new Film, Hellbound< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
Richardthughes



Posts: 10312
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 23 2011,12:47   

Kevin, if you'd like to frame the discussion, feel free.

I'm not sure if you need disclosure of people's faiths as part of the posts?

Bible seach for "hell"

http://www.biblegateway.com/quickse....ion=NIV

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 23 2011,13:25   


Iain's latest is all about digital hell. A cracking read.

Read his book!

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gaugerís work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3335
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 23 2011,13:40   

Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Mar. 23 2011,13:25)

Iain's latest is all about digital hell. A cracking read.

Read his book!

Surface Detail definitely a much more powerful idea of a hell than the rather lame Judeo-Christian version.  

On the other hand, the ending left me going WTF?

But back to hell... ("Back into Hell" anyone?)

What's the point?  The New Testament lays down the general principles of good government, but contains no code of laws for the punishment of offenders. Punishment proceeds on the principle that there is an eternal distinction between right and wrong, and that this distinction must be maintained for its own sake. It is not primarily intended for the reformation of criminals, nor for the purpose of deterring others from sin. These results may be gained, but crime in itself demands punishment.

If there is an enternal distinction between right and wrong, then what is right and what is wrong?  

If we go by the Bible definition, then beating your slaves almost to death is perfectly OK.  Yet, no modern, moral person believes it is OK to beat ones slaves (or indeed own slaves).

So are we more moral than the Bible?  How can the Bible claim an eternal morality (distinction between right and wrong) if that morality changes based on the culture and the time?

Can anyone meet the requirements of both the Bible and modern society?  What about all the other religions?  What about purgatory (invented so that Christians could still force people to believe in God to go to heaven, but didn't have to send babies to hell)?

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
Richardthughes



Posts: 10312
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 23 2011,13:46   

I also liked Surface detail!

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Kristine



Posts: 3046
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 23 2011,14:43   

Hell is in the earth, no? That reveals a particular attitude toward the earth, does it not?

Doesn't it also allude to a sense of shame at our origins, our bodies, our sexuality? And thus global climate change, evolution, and death?

Vine Deloria, Jr., himself not an atheist, said that of all the religions, the Christian Heaven seemed to be the most pleasant, but the majority of its believers also seemed to have the greatest fear of death, largely because of this fear of hell.

It has not made people more moral, this fear, but it has given people a new weapon with which to demonize their enemies. Say what you want about Richard Dawkins or PZ or me, but none of us believes that there is a hell waiting for anyone that we do not like.

--------------
Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 3592
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 23 2011,15:05   

Hell is simply a tool invented by those in power to keep their subjects in line.

--------------
Ēletís not make a joke of ourselves.Ē

Pat Robertson

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3335
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 23 2011,15:10   

Quote (Kristine @ Mar. 23 2011,14:43)
Hell is in the earth, no? That reveals a particular attitude toward the earth, does it not?

Doesn't it also allude to a sense of shame at our origins, our bodies, our sexuality? And thus global climate change, evolution, and death?

Vine Deloria, Jr., himself not an atheist, said that of all the religions, the Christian Heaven seemed to be the most pleasant, but the majority of its believers also seemed to have the greatest fear of death, largely because of this fear of hell.

It has not made people more moral, this fear, but it has given people a new weapon with which to demonize their enemies. Say what you want about Richard Dawkins or PZ or me, but none of us believes that there is a hell waiting for anyone that we do not like.

The Christian heaven seems like hell to me.  Singing and praising god forever... yech.  It'd definitely be hell for those standing next to me in the chorus line.*




*I can barely carry a tune on my iPod.

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
Robin



Posts: 1430
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 23 2011,15:50   

Of all the versions of hell out there that I've read about, the most baffling one to me is Christianity's. It has no point.

Think about the basics of the Christian version of hell for a moment:

1) Any "sin" (this term is a little vague in and of itself depending on the sect you listen to, but in general it means any act against God's proscribed rules) gets you into to hell regardless of the relative effect here on Earth. Kill 100 billion people and destroy 3/4 of the Earth or simply lust after your neighbor's wife and your in.

2) Once in, the "punishment" (again, what this is varies between sects, but in principle it involves fire and lots of it) and your soul's torment from it is eternal. Like 1 above, it doesn't matter what "sin" you committed, all receive the same treatment and it's forever.

3) The only redemption is submission to the God demands/rules (and repentance for your "sinful" behavior) before one ever gets there; there's no option to repent once there.

4) There's no rehabilitation in hell. See 2 and 3 above.

5) Once there, your torture is available to all the saints and blessed for their viewing pleasure (yep, there's schadenfreude in heaven apparently - see Isaiah 14 and 66 for instance. Revelations has some take on this as well).

Chew on that for a minute or so.

So what's the point? In this concept, you can live a good, honest life - help grandmas at swim class, give volunteer at soup kitchens, donate to cancer research, and help your neighbors and community - and burn for eternity simply because you look upon a girl at 15 and thought she was sexy. OTOH, you can be Hitler or Stalin and "find God" on your deathbed and repent your sins, and spend the rest of eternity eating bon-bons and sipping on Courvoisier  with Jesus while waving and whistling at the damned.

Yeeeaah...it just doesn't make any sense to me.

--------------
we IDists rule in design for the flagellum and cilium largely because they do look designed. †Bilbo

The only reason you reject Thor is because, like a cushion, you bear the imprint of the biggest arse that sat on you. Louis

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4369
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 23 2011,18:15   

Quote
Yeeeaah...it just doesn't make any sense to me.


Nor to anyone with a lick of sense.  So Kevin, your "movie" could be the shortest on record.  

And BTW, it's too damn bad taht you're afraid to interview Louis.   The potential acadamy award-winning scene where he eviscerates you and makes you cry will sadly, never get made.  

However, I do believe that Mr. DeMille is ready to get that close-up of you.  Fix your mascara!

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3335
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 23 2011,18:35   

Could we stop calling this clown 'Kevin'?  Please?

I further note he hasn't bothered to come here and answer any of these issues.

Here's another couple of questions...

All you have to go on for any definition of hell is what?  A book written by people who had never been there.

In fact, if you are one of the IDiots that think that God is lying to us (by creating the universe with a semblance of age), then how can we trust his 'revelations' about hell?  

Of course, you might have anecdotal 'evidence'.  In that case, let's find a human being who has never heard of Christianity, never been preached to by any modern religion, or had any other influence (no TV, movies, radio, books, etc).  Now, let's kill him (should be easy for religious types... we'll just tell them he's gay.)

Then we'll revive him and see what version of 'hell' or anything else he describes.

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 23 2011,18:41   

J-Dog,

I'm not sure a scene where Kev's producer/money people scream "He wants how much? There's no way we're paying that total non-entity that sort of cash!" which swiftly cuts to me saying "Hell doesn't exist. It's an absurd, cruel fiction no matter how many people vaguely believe in it. Find me some evidence and I'll listen.....Didn't think so. Now off you fuck so I can do some real work." is Academy Award material. Sadly.

Mind you, turning up in the Borat style man thong would be comedy gold...

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 23 2011,18:45   

Quote (OgreMkV @ Mar. 24 2011,00:35)
Could we stop calling this clown 'Kevin'? †Please?

[SNIP]

Fair enough. I vote for "Lying shitebag who greasily shills for the terminally bible blinded". The only problem is that it doesn't have a catchy acronym and fails to communicate his eminent punchability.*

Too harsh?

Louis

*Edited to add: It should be obvious I don't mean this literally. Don't know Kev, don't want to punch him. Hyperbole is fun though. Not a fan of liars though, I doubt Kevvo has the cojones to present the targets of his misrepresentations with his nonsense.

--------------
Bye.

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4369
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 23 2011,20:01   

Quote (Louis @ Mar. 23 2011,18:45)
Quote (OgreMkV @ Mar. 24 2011,00:35)
Could we stop calling this clown 'Kevin'? †Please?

[SNIP]

Fair enough. I vote for "Lying shitebag who greasily shills for the terminally bible blinded". The only problem is that it doesn't have a catchy acronym and fails to communicate his eminent punchability.

Too harsh?

Louis

Quote
Too harsh?


No, not at all.

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
khan



Posts: 1484
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 23 2011,20:39   

Quote (Robin @ Mar. 23 2011,16:50)
Of all the versions of hell out there that I've read about, the most baffling one to me is Christianity's. It has no point.

Think about the basics of the Christian version of hell for a moment:

1) Any "sin" (this term is a little vague in and of itself depending on the sect you listen to, but in general it means any act against God's proscribed rules) gets you into to hell regardless of the relative effect here on Earth. Kill 100 billion people and destroy 3/4 of the Earth or simply lust after your neighbor's wife and your in.

2) Once in, the "punishment" (again, what this is varies between sects, but in principle it involves fire and lots of it) and your soul's torment from it is eternal. Like 1 above, it doesn't matter what "sin" you committed, all receive the same treatment and it's forever.

3) The only redemption is submission to the God demands/rules (and repentance for your "sinful" behavior) before one ever gets there; there's no option to repent once there.

4) There's no rehabilitation in hell. See 2 and 3 above.

5) Once there, your torture is available to all the saints and blessed for their viewing pleasure (yep, there's schadenfreude in heaven apparently - see Isaiah 14 and 66 for instance. Revelations has some take on this as well).

Chew on that for a minute or so.

So what's the point? In this concept, you can live a good, honest life - help grandmas at swim class, give volunteer at soup kitchens, donate to cancer research, and help your neighbors and community - and burn for eternity simply because you look upon a girl at 15 and thought she was sexy. OTOH, you can be Hitler or Stalin and "find God" on your deathbed and repent your sins, and spend the rest of eternity eating bon-bons and sipping on Courvoisier †with Jesus while waving and whistling at the damned.

Yeeeaah...it just doesn't make any sense to me.

If it made sense, it wouldn't be religion.

--------------
"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

  
Seversky



Posts: 416
Joined: June 2010

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 23 2011,21:04   

Kevin...


  
keiths



Posts: 2041
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 23 2011,21:31   

Hell would be spending eternity listening to Gil Dodgen.

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And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number.  -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3335
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 23 2011,21:44   

Quote (keiths @ Mar. 23 2011,21:31)
Hell would be spending eternity listening to Gil Dodgen.

There's a new thread... examples of hell.

How about watching BA77 elaborate at length while wearing a Lady Gaga outfit?

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
ppb



Posts: 325
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 23 2011,22:28   

Maybe Kevin should interview Matt Groening. †I've always enjoyed his views on the subject.

--------------
"[A scientific theory] describes Nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And it agrees fully with experiment. So I hope you can accept Nature as She is - absurd."
- Richard P. Feynman

  
kevinmillerxi



Posts: 92
Joined: Feb. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 24 2011,00:31   

Thanks for setting this up, Richard. Framing questions to come.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 24 2011,06:47   

Quote (kevinmillerxi @ Mar. 24 2011,06:31)
Thanks for setting this up, Richard. Framing questions to come.

The only question you need to focus on, my lad, is "Bearing false witness: will it send me to the very hell I so fervently love to claim others are condemned to?".

Seriously, why the hell* do you expect to make a propaganda movie which in which you selectively and dishonestly (admittedly so it appears) edit the comments of others to fit into a prearranged story derived from your own prejudices, slander generations of scientists, misrepresent the work and lives of individuals and multitudes, and then not expect to come in for criticism varying from the excoriating to the abusive? Why do you expect anyone aware of your shenanigans, here or elsewhere, to trust you at your (already thoroughly discredited) word?

Dr Louis' advice: stop focussing on the made up sins of others, old boy, start focussing on your own very real ones. Or so you think by piously instigating little cinematic pogroms of dishonesty your fictional deity will somehow love you? Is any sin forgiveable as long as you do it for the baby Jesus? Remember, movie-shill-boy, it's not *MY* standards you have to live up to, it's the ones you claim to believe in.

Now run along and bother someone else with your asinine irrelevances.

Louis

*Haha, see what I did there? I kill me sometimes.**

**In joke...forget about it.

--------------
Bye.

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 24 2011,06:50   

next thread, "Thoughts on whether Shiva has 10 sets of fingernail clippers"

why the hell would anyone want to go see another jimmy o'keefe style driveby con job *about* a con job?

oh right that's because kevin is a cynic and plies his wares to the average Amurrikan

well lemme tell you something kev I live right in the middle of all the average Amurrikans and they don't give a shit about your movies. †Sternberg who, your lies don't even get fixed in medium range memory.

the best i can figure, the same outfit that prints your garbage must also own stock in some DVD pressing factories and mails to a short list of preferred church youth group pastors who like to show this sort of crap on wednesday nights to pimply faced teenagers who are only there for the pizza and a chance to grope something. †

that you troll this board like a remora is, well, about what i'd expect from you.

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell.†Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4369
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 24 2011,08:42   

So.  From the responses here, it looks like this board is about evenly divided, with the two positions outlined below:

1.) Kevin is a disingenuous little moron/prick and should be ignored.

2.) Kevin is a disingenuous little moron/prick and should be poked with a stick for LOLs.

I vote for Kevin as #2.

Kevin - Over to you!

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
JAM



Posts: 503
Joined: July 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 24 2011,09:24   

Quote (khan @ Mar. 23 2011,19:39)
Quote (Robin @ Mar. 23 2011,16:50)
Of all the versions of hell out there that I've read about, the most baffling one to me is Christianity's. It has no point.

Think about the basics of the Christian version of hell for a moment:

1) Any "sin" (this term is a little vague in and of itself depending on the sect you listen to, but in general it means any act against God's proscribed rules) gets you into to hell regardless of the relative effect here on Earth. Kill 100 billion people and destroy 3/4 of the Earth or simply lust after your neighbor's wife and your in.

2) Once in, the "punishment" (again, what this is varies between sects, but in principle it involves fire and lots of it) and your soul's torment from it is eternal. Like 1 above, it doesn't matter what "sin" you committed, all receive the same treatment and it's forever.

3) The only redemption is submission to the God demands/rules (and repentance for your "sinful" behavior) before one ever gets there; there's no option to repent once there.

4) There's no rehabilitation in hell. See 2 and 3 above.

5) Once there, your torture is available to all the saints and blessed for their viewing pleasure (yep, there's schadenfreude in heaven apparently - see Isaiah 14 and 66 for instance. Revelations has some take on this as well).

Chew on that for a minute or so.

So what's the point? In this concept, you can live a good, honest life - help grandmas at swim class, give volunteer at soup kitchens, donate to cancer research, and help your neighbors and community - and burn for eternity simply because you look upon a girl at 15 and thought she was sexy. OTOH, you can be Hitler or Stalin and "find God" on your deathbed and repent your sins, and spend the rest of eternity eating bon-bons and sipping on Courvoisier †with Jesus while waving and whistling at the damned.

Yeeeaah...it just doesn't make any sense to me.

If it made sense, it wouldn't be religion.

Well, to be fair, none of that comes from the teachings of Jesus.

However, it makes infinite sense coming from those who were trying to build a church (i.e., amass political power).

It seems to me that the best avenue of attack is theological: to point out that those pushing this hellish vision are placing the Old Testament and the ramblings of Paul (as well as the ramblings falsely attributed to him) above those of Jesus Himself.

They are OTPaulians, not Christians.

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3335
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 24 2011,09:25   

Quote (J-Dog @ Mar. 24 2011,08:42)
So. †From the responses here, it looks like this board is about evenly divided, with the two positions outlined below:

1.) Kevin is a disingenuous little moron/prick and should be ignored.

2.) Kevin is a disingenuous little moron/prick and should be poked with a stick for LOLs.

I vote for Kevin as #2.

Kevin - Over to you!

I agree... I think we've asked some serious questions about hell... and had some fun.

Kevin, will you discuss this in an adult manner?  (i.e. sharing of ideas, not preaching; answering questions, not just asking them; actually considering others thoughts, instead of ignoring ones you don't agree with)

So far, it doesn't look too good.

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
kevinmillerxi



Posts: 92
Joined: Feb. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 24 2011,10:15   

Kristine, Robin, thanks for your feedback. Especially this: †
Quote
It has not made people more moral, this fear, but it has given people a new weapon with which to demonize their enemies. Say what you want about Richard Dawkins or PZ or me, but none of us believes that there is a hell waiting for anyone that we do not like.
This is one of the key areas I want to get into, the psychological function of hell as a way of enforcing boundaries/simplifying the world. Question is, can someone recommend someone a good authority on the psychology of religion?

  
kevinmillerxi



Posts: 92
Joined: Feb. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 24 2011,10:17   

OgreMkV: I find it laughable that you would quote J-Dog and then ask if  I'm going to discuss this subject in an adult manner. Clearly discussing things in an adult manner isn't a requirement to be part of this group. But to answer your question simply, yes. I don't need two millstones around my neck.

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 24 2011,10:26   

Quote (kevinmillerxi @ Mar. 24 2011,10:15)
Question is, can someone recommend someone a good authority on the psychology of religion?

I'd suggest you talk to any paedophile priest (there are 100's), no doubt the average pervert priest is more then familiar with the psychology of keeping people in fear via religion and the fear of hell.

"You'll go to hell if you tell anybody".

etc.

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gaugerís work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
khan



Posts: 1484
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 24 2011,10:51   

Quote (kevinmillerxi @ Mar. 24 2011,11:17)
OgreMkV: I find it laughable that you would quote J-Dog and then ask if †I'm going to discuss this subject in an adult manner. Clearly discussing things in an adult manner isn't a requirement to be part of this group. But to answer your question simply, yes. I don't need two millstones around my neck.

"Hell" can not be discussed in an adult manner; as can not unicorns or leprechauns.

--------------
"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 24 2011,11:03   

Quote (khan @ Mar. 24 2011,11:51)
Quote (kevinmillerxi @ Mar. 24 2011,11:17)
OgreMkV: I find it laughable that you would quote J-Dog and then ask if †I'm going to discuss this subject in an adult manner. Clearly discussing things in an adult manner isn't a requirement to be part of this group. But to answer your question simply, yes. I don't need two millstones around my neck.

"Hell" can not be discussed in an adult manner; as can not unicorns or leprechauns.

what about a leprechaun doing adult things to a unicorn?

you'll go to hell for that!

"clearly this isn't a place for grown up discussions"

LMAO not with you

"This is one of the key areas I want to get into, the psychological function of hell as a way of enforcing boundaries/simplifying the world. Question is, can someone recommend someone a good authority on the psychology of religion? "

changed your mind, eh?

why would you do that?  obvious troll is obvious kevin

try here



--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell.†Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 24 2011,11:41   

Quote (J-Dog @ Mar. 24 2011,14:42)
So. †From the responses here, it looks like this board is about evenly divided, with the two positions outlined below:

1.) Kevin is a disingenuous little moron/prick and should be ignored.

2.) Kevin is a disingenuous little moron/prick and should be poked with a stick for LOLs.

I vote for Kevin as #2.

Kevin - Over to you!

OPTION TWO! RAH RAH RAH! OPTION TWO! RAH RAH RAH!

(Until we get bored, which given that Kevvo is also a one trick pony, and the trick is old, will not be long)

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
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