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Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 16 2008,15:08   

Wow, MtDNA, have you been following him long, or is this your first meeting?

He is a piece of work.  There are some intelligent albeit, IMO misguided, folks on that fundie web page.

Some of my other favorites are Solon (he is now Peter Leavitt), Xion (a YECer that claims to be a scientist but once admitted he grinds eyeglasses), SavedByGrace (a pastor who is also a materials engineer, sometimes claims to be a scientist, is a YECer and presuppositionalist) and I probably forget some other good'uns.

Good place to tard mine.

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Mister DNA



Posts: 466
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 16 2008,15:19   

Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Jan. 16 2008,15:08)
Wow, MtDNA, have you been following him long, or is this your first meeting?

He is a piece of work.  There are some intelligent albeit, IMO misguided, folks on that fundie web page.

Some of my other favorites are Solon (he is now Peter Leavitt), Xion (a YECer that claims to be a scientist but once admitted he grinds eyeglasses), SavedByGrace (a pastor who is also a materials engineer, sometimes claims to be a scientist, is a YECer and presuppositionalist) and I probably forget some other good'uns.

Good place to tard mine.

It's my second meeting - both thanks to you. I added the Outkast quote you posted in the "Top Tard Quotes" thread to the RTQG, and after seeing his work on the Expelled thread, I'm gonna have to bookmark that site for future Tard mining excursions.

btw, that site is operated by the Moonies, isn't it?

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CBEB's: The Church Burnin' Ebola Blog
Thank you, Dr. Dembski. You are without peer when it comes to The Argument Regarding Design. - vesf

    
Kristine



Posts: 3037
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 16 2008,15:27   

Quote (Glen Davidson @ Jan. 15 2008,14:17)
I have not been able to get back to the sites that I linked at Expelled.  Since I fear that they may be reacting to exposure, I went to Google's Cache to copy what was at www.getexpelled.com/schools.php to here.  Here's the text of that whole page:

 
Quote
Welcome to the
Expelled Challenge web site

where we can help Christian schools raise up to $10,000 while educating their students, parents, and staff of the controversy that is surrounding the Intelligent Design and evolution debate. This is an extremely important project for those of us who believe our world was designed by a creator and not an act of random chance.

What is the Expelled Challenge?
To engage Christian schools to get as many students, parents, and faculty from your school out to see Ben Stein’s new movie Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed (opening in theaters April 2008).

Here are some suggestions as to how to do that:
Organize a school field trip and invite parents to attend as well.
Offer extra credit to your students to go on their own time.
What is the reward?
Generous donations can be awarded to schools according to the number of movie ticket stubs they turn in. By accepting this challenge, your school could be awarded a donation up to $10,000, just for bringing your kids to see this film!

Your school will be awarded a donation based upon the number of ticket stubs you turn in (see submission instructions in FAQ section). That structure is as follows:

0-99 ticket stubs submitted = $5 per ticket stub
100-299 ticket stubs submitted = $1,000 donated to your school

300-499 ticket stubs submitted = $2,500 donated to your school

500 ticket stubs submitted = $5,000 donated to your school

Each school across the nation will be competing for the top honor of submitting the most ticket stubs with that school having their $5,000 donation matched for a total donation of $10,000!

Please click on the link at the bottom of this page to register your school to take the Expelled Challenge and tell us how many ticket stubs you think your school will submit. Registering is very important as only schools who register will be eligible for donated funds. Also, funds are limited and will be given in the order in which the schools are registered. Deadline for registering is March 28, 2008.

Please review our Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs) for more information or send us an email at: [EMAIL=expelledchallege@groundforcenetwork.com.]expelledchallege@groundforcenetwork.com.[/EMAIL]

Click Here to REGISTER NOW!


Contact Us|Privacy Policy|Terms of Use
EXPELLED: No Intelligence Allowed and the EXPELLED titles, logos and images are trademarks of Premise Media Corporation and are used with permission. The views expressed herein do not represent those of the Premise Media Corportation or the filmmakers, but are rather the views of various organizations who have created these resources.  

© 2007 Motive Entertainment.


Glen D

Nice job, Glen! :)

--------------
Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
improvius



Posts: 807
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 16 2008,17:24   

"Faith and Arts Community Endeavor project"?

WTF.

Googling this turns up exactly one hit - the Expelled page.

--------------
Quote (afdave @ Oct. 02 2006,18:37)
Many Jews were in comfortable oblivion about Hitler ... until it was too late.
Many scientists will persist in comfortable oblivion about their Creator ... until it is too late.

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 16 2008,20:48   

Quote
btw, that site is operated by the Moonies, isn't it?


I don't know.  Do tell?  Luuuuuuuuuuuuuv to hear that'un.

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Mister DNA



Posts: 466
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 16 2008,21:03   

Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Jan. 16 2008,20:48)
Quote
btw, that site is operated by the Moonies, isn't it?


I don't know.  Do tell?  Luuuuuuuuuuuuuv to hear that'un.

Never mind... I was confusing World Magazine with World and I Journal, which is published by Moon's Washington Times. Sorry about that.

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CBEB's: The Church Burnin' Ebola Blog
Thank you, Dr. Dembski. You are without peer when it comes to The Argument Regarding Design. - vesf

    
Mr_Christopher



Posts: 1238
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 17 2008,00:37   

Latest email propaganda from our boy Ben:

Quote
Dear Chris

Motive Entertainment launches EXPELLED resources website for leaders, prepares for second national outreach tour
HOLLYWOOD, Calif. (Jan. 16, 2007) - With momentum building toward the Spring 2008 release of EXPELLED: No Intelligence Allow ed, Motive Entertainment announces the launch of a dynamic website for students, teachers, pastors, youth leaders and organizations. The site - www.GetEXPELLED.com - is packed full of useful tools and resources to promote the ideas surrounding this history-changing film:
Learn about new scientific evidence that invalidates Darwin's claims.
Hear from scientists who are being SILENCED for those discoveries.
Learn how to DEFEND BELIEF in God based on SCIENTIFIC evidence.
Learn what can and cannot be taught in schools and how that is CHANGING nationwide.
See a SNEAK PEEK of exclusive video clips from the upcoming movie.
Learn how you can get FREE GROUP TICKETS to see EXPELLED: No Intelligence Allowed in theaters.
Learn how YOU can be in the movie.

ABOUT THE FILM:
In this film, author, former presidential speechwriter, economist, lawyer and actor Ben Stein exposes the frightening "atheist agenda." The film also reveals how teachers, students and scientists are being "expelled" and persecuted for questioning Darwinism despite the mounting evidence that debunks Darwinism and shows proof of a Designer ("God") in the universe!

This highly controversial documentary is receiving major media buzz (including the front page of the New York Times). In the movie, Stein travels the world, asking top scientific minds whether Darwinism is still a "theory" or if it's become a "law" which no one is allowed to question.

NATIONWIDE TOUR:
The second leg of the EXPELLED Nationwide Tour is underway. You can request that the EXPELLED team visit your city, university, college o r church. For details and to RSVP, visit http://www.GetEXPELLED.com/events.php.
In December, the EXPELLED team traveled the country, making 13 stops from Texas to Tennessee after kicking off the bus tour in Dayton, Tenn. More than 1,500 passionate EXPELLED fans attended events in seven states, proving that science and truth are still hot topics across the country. Click here to read more in the Tour Blog.

ENTER TO WIN:

Win FREE Movie Tickets
Register for updates and sign up for your chance to win FREE movie tickets to see EXPELLED: No Intelligence Allowed in theaters Spring 2008. Click here to enter.

Win $ 500 Cash
Getexpelled.com has officially launched Th e EXPELLED Games, an awesome opportunity for you to do what you love, vocalize your support for the movement, and maybe even earn $500! Sing your song, write your piece, speak your mind. LET YOUR VOICE BE HEARD! Click here for more info.

Win a Chance to Be in the Movie
SHOUT OUT and let your voice be heard! Tell us about your own Expelled experience and possibly win the chance to be in the movie! Click here for more info.


I want to enter to WIN!!  I want free movie tickets, cash, what's behind door number 3 and the chick standing next to it.

I love how Ben isn't pussy footing around with any space alien crap, he's all about the Designer is God!

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Uncommon Descent is a moral cesspool, a festering intellectual ghetto that intoxicates and degrades its inhabitants - Stephen Matheson

  
Bob O'H



Posts: 1963
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 17 2008,00:54   

Errm, did anyone realise that they had a nationwide tour in Nov/Dec last year?

Anyone?

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ID theorists don’t postulate a designer for their arguments. - Crandaddy
There is no connection between a peppered moth, natural selection, and religion that I can see. - FtK

   
Nomad



Posts: 309
Joined: July 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 17 2008,02:27   

Okay guys, I'm looking for opinions on this.  Should I go see this if it ever makes it to a theater near me?

Yeah.. I know they'll happily take my money and claim that I'm evidence that the movie was received well.  But besides my morbid curiosity to see what's in this docufantasy, I want to check out the rest of the audience.  I want to try to figure out who's going to see it.  Might I find myself in a theater that's sparsely populated (I don't expect a packed house in any event) by other people who are there for a laugh?

I don't see myself doing this, I'm just not outgoing enough.. but I like the idea of making up a sort of post movie poll and asking people what they thought when they leave the theater.


On another note.. WOW, Stein really did not get the memo about zipping it with regards to religion.  I was checking out the expelled tour description.  It announces that, at the tour, you can:
 
Quote
Learn how to DEFEND your BELIEF in God based on scientific evidence


I REALLY wish this travelling sideshow had ended up near me.  Granted it would most likely have gone to a church, and I avoid churches if at all possible.. they just make me feel uneasy, all that mindless devotion creeps me out.  But it would have been fun to be able to correct them if they were to.. accidentally.. state an untruth.

  
Kristine



Posts: 3037
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 17 2008,09:23   

Quote (Nomad @ Jan. 17 2008,01:27)
Okay guys, I'm looking for opinions on this.  Should I go see this if it ever makes it to a theater near me?

Yeah.. I know they'll happily take my money and claim that I'm evidence that the movie was received well.  But besides my morbid curiosity to see what's in this docufantasy, I want to check out the rest of the audience.  I want to try to figure out who's going to see it.  Might I find myself in a theater that's sparsely populated (I don't expect a packed house in any event) by other people who are there for a laugh?

I don't see myself doing this, I'm just not outgoing enough.. but I like the idea of making up a sort of post movie poll and asking people what they thought when they leave the theater.


On another note.. WOW, Stein really did not get the memo about zipping it with regards to religion.  I was checking out the expelled tour description.  It announces that, at the tour, you can:
   
Quote
Learn how to DEFEND your BELIEF in God based on scientific evidence


I REALLY wish this travelling sideshow had ended up near me.  Granted it would most likely have gone to a church, and I avoid churches if at all possible.. they just make me feel uneasy, all that mindless devotion creeps me out.  But it would have been fun to be able to correct them if they were to.. accidentally.. state an untruth.

This is the most bizarre thing I've seen yet.

It reminds me of something that Vine Deloria, Jr. said (yes, I know, but he was spot-on when he wrote about American culture), that American "Christianity" is largely Americans actually worshipping America - a kind of Americanity, as it were - and that in this worship, Americans jump on every new fad - hula hoops, judo, new therapies, social causes, etc. - to jolt some more novelty into this religion that they think is judeo-christian but is in reality football plus popular culture, tent revivalism, can-doism, with a little Jesus thrown in.

--------------
Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
improvius



Posts: 807
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 17 2008,09:25   

I won't see it.  As far as I can tell, I'm already familiar with the main cases and arguments that it presents.  I don't want to add a penny to their box office.  And watching 90 minutes of lies would ultimately just leave me pissed off.

I cannot think of a sane reason to see this film.

--------------
Quote (afdave @ Oct. 02 2006,18:37)
Many Jews were in comfortable oblivion about Hitler ... until it was too late.
Many scientists will persist in comfortable oblivion about their Creator ... until it is too late.

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4361
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 17 2008,09:49   

Quote (Nomad @ Jan. 17 2008,02:27)
Okay guys, I'm looking for opinions on this.  Should I go see this if it ever makes it to a theater near me?

Yeah.. I know they'll happily take my money and claim that I'm evidence that the movie was received well.  But besides my morbid curiosity to see what's in this docufantasy, I want to check out the rest of the audience.  I want to try to figure out who's going to see it.  Might I find myself in a theater that's sparsely populated (I don't expect a packed house in any event) by other people who are there for a laugh?

I don't see myself doing this, I'm just not outgoing enough.. but I like the idea of making up a sort of post movie poll and asking people what they thought when they leave the theater.


On another note.. WOW, Stein really did not get the memo about zipping it with regards to religion.  I was checking out the expelled tour description.  It announces that, at the tour, you can:
   
Quote
Learn how to DEFEND your BELIEF in God based on scientific evidence


I REALLY wish this travelling sideshow had ended up near me.  Granted it would most likely have gone to a church, and I avoid churches if at all possible.. they just make me feel uneasy, all that mindless devotion creeps me out.  But it would have been fun to be able to correct them if they were to.. accidentally.. state an untruth.

Praise Jesus Nomad!  Go to see the movie, laugh out loud when Behe and Dembski are on-screen, and yell out BS at the appropriate moments!  It could turn out to be like Rocky Horror Picture Show was for my generation - just watch out for where everybody throws up, as that could get a little messy.

Please remember to

1.) Take your camera - you took great shots at the Darwin Exhibit
2.)  Get the large popcorn, with extra butter

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Mr_Christopher



Posts: 1238
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 17 2008,10:24   

I can't wait to see it.  I don't mind Ben getting my $5.  That's not much when you think of the quality tard you'll get to witness on the big screen.

I predict the crowd seeing it will resemble a freak fest of tardery.  Yeah I'm a weirdo, I'll pay $5 to watch a freak fest live and in technicolor.

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Uncommon Descent is a moral cesspool, a festering intellectual ghetto that intoxicates and degrades its inhabitants - Stephen Matheson

  
Glen Davidson



Posts: 752
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 17 2008,11:25   

Thanks Kristine.  And Richard, I didn't send anything to Pharyngula as such (stuck a bit in the comments is all), as it didn't occur to me.

I found Stein rambling on in typical incoherent bozo mode, here.

Mr. Christopher framed it well with his post.  The most striking bit from Stein was this one:

 
Quote
I think we say it can respond to changes in the world around them and that neo-Darwinians say it can only do that by random chance - it only happens by random chance. We say the cell may have the possibility of doing itself in an intelligent way that there may be some intelligence in the cell itself so that's probably a big difference between the two of us. We, on this side, think at least there's a possibility. We believe there's some possibility the cell could have an intelligence of its own.


[Emphases added]

Now compare this to his accusation against real scientists:

 
Quote
and the Darwinists have no theory whatsoever about the origin of life, none whatsoever, except the most hazy, the kind of preposterous, New Age hypothesis.


Yeah, sorry that we didn't think about pre-cells or chemicals having some kind of intelligence.  That would be real science.

Not to mention that he has no clue about the speculations and experiments of the abiogenesis researchers.

Then there's this doltish claim:

 
Quote
Science should always be in the business of attempting to disprove itself.


After that he projects that we're trying to rationalize, when he can't begin to support ID or to come up with any meaningful criticisms of "Darwinism".

A bit of irony:

 
Quote
Well, I would say it's creationism by someone. For me, I've always believed that there was a God. I've always believed that God created the heavens and earth - so, for me it's not a huge leap from there to intelligent design


Why no, it's just not that big a leap after all.  Sorry that I said it was (or did I?).

Here's the guy "questioning" Stein:

 
Quote
There is a segment in the film, where it's made clear that intelligent design can open up new areas of inquiry that could improve the human condition. One involves a neurosurgeon, Michael Egnor, and another scientist, Jon Wells, who indicate that given how the cells are put together, with eye toward intelligent design, and with the idea that animal cells have tiny turbines - or if viewed as tiny turbines - he was able to formulate a theory that said in the event these things malfunction and don't properly shut down and could break apart, this is the first step on the way to cancer.


There you are Egnor, who's as clueless as a mole watching a shuttle launch (at least in this subject), and Jon Wells with his tired turbine BS, which was neither really predicated upon ID, nor did it turn out to be correct.  Apparently it's in the movie, though, at least so far.  Stein's actually more sensible about this bit than the interviewer is:

 
Quote
And I was just overwhelmed by the fact, at least as I am told, that Darwinists have never observed natural species being originated ... There's not even a clear definition of what a species is


You could probably overwhelm this ignoramus with the fact that a 10 km. asteroid has never been seen to hit earth and cause the devastation that "new age" scientists say would occur, and that stars have never been seen forming.

And of course the prediction of MET that species would not be a clear and simple category, due to evolution, becomes in this IDiot's mind an argument against scientists.

Seems, too, that we've progressed from being Nazis to being Marxists:

 
Quote
I think there is this kind of Marxist establishment in this country that has been overthrown in other countries, but not overthrown here. There is a very powerful Marxist establishment within the intelligentsia that does not allow questioning of its premises.


Glen D

--------------
http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p....p

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of coincidence---ID philosophy

   
Kristine



Posts: 3037
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 17 2008,11:38   

Oh, Marxists. That’s worse! :)

To expand this discussion into Ben Stein’s celestial spheres, I see that he is now advocating a bailout of Wall Street (because the economy sucks so bad) after calling for the Justice Department to investigate Wall Street (because the economy is hunky-dory).

You gotta admit, for someone who doesn’t think evolution happens this man sure knows how to adapt! :D

Nomad, Improvius, and Mr. Christopher – I recomment UTorrent. Then you don’t pay a thing and can take this stuff (like Jesus Camp) in little bites.

--------------
Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
JohnW



Posts: 2221
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 17 2008,11:57   

Quote (Glen Davidson @ Jan. 17 2008,09:25)
Seems, too, that we've progressed from being Nazis to being Marxists:

 
Quote
I think there is this kind of Marxist establishment in this country that has been overthrown in other countries, but not overthrown here. There is a very powerful Marxist establishment within the intelligentsia that does not allow questioning of its premises.

So, while biological research in the US remains chained to outmoded Darwinian orthodoxy by a sinister cabal of Nazis Marxists, other countries are forging ahead with spectacular findings based on the cutting-edge new paradigm of ID.

Does anyone know where I can read about this research?  Or do the Nazis Marxists control the publishing houses, libraries and Internet?

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Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it.
- Robert Byers

  
Mister DNA



Posts: 466
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 17 2008,12:12   

Quote (Kristine @ Jan. 17 2008,11:38)
Nomad, Improvius, and Mr. Christopher – I recomment UTorrent. Then you don’t pay a thing and can take this stuff (like Jesus Camp) in little bites.

In addition... if you can spare a few bucks each month, a premium Usenet service is handy. I just checked, and the "Jesus Camp" DVD is available in alt.binaries.boneless - for review purposes only, of course.

Since it's in my Netflix queue I'm not going to bother, though.

--------------
CBEB's: The Church Burnin' Ebola Blog
Thank you, Dr. Dembski. You are without peer when it comes to The Argument Regarding Design. - vesf

    
Mr_Christopher



Posts: 1238
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 17 2008,12:50   

Glen links to this article in his above post but it's too tardish to not post the whole turd here (my bolding):

Quote
Interview: 'Big Science' in America is Killing 1st Amendment, Says Actor Ben Stein
By Kevin Mooney
CNSNews.com Staff Writer
January 17, 2008

(CNSNews.com) - Intelligent design theory, or ID, is opening new doors of scientific research, particularly in cancer and other disease research, according to its adherents, but a new movie, "Expelled" starring Ben Stein explores how an "elitist scientific establishment" is apparently muzzling and smearing scientists who publicly discuss ID.

The First Amendment is under brutal attack in the scientific community, Ben Stein, a former presidential speechwriter-turned-actor and commentator, says in the film, which opens in theaters on Feb. 12.

"I always assumed scientists were free to ask any question, pursue any line of inquiry without fear or reprisal," he says. "But recently, I've been alarmed to discover that this is not the case."

In an exclusive interview with Cybercast News Service - with audio clips below - Stein contends that rigid Darwinists are silencing their critics in academia, which the film explores, and discusses how ID ideas are helping in cancer research and similar work.

Yet the ID research that could potentially produce medical breakthroughs, says Stein, is also being undermined by Darwinian scientists who don't want ID research viewed as legitimate.

Cybercast News Service: Is this controversy about science versus religion, or is this more science versus science? Simply, is this about scientists with different worldviews -with one group more willing to open themselves up to alternative explanations than others - as the film suggests?

Ben Stein: Well, first of all, I question your premise. It's not just scientists versus scientists. It is a particular subset of science which does not admit any kind of questions - it is a kind of perversion of science, which doesn't allow for any kind of questioning of itself. Science should always be in the business of attempting to disprove itself. Neo-Darwinian science is exactly in the opposite business of endlessly trying to rationalize itself - and reprove itself, you might say - reprove that it's right without any kind of test. So it's not scientists - it's really, I would say, scientists are the ones willing to look into intelligent design. The people who are anti-science are the ones unwilling to look at anything new or different. So I'd say it's a perverted kind of science versus what I would call a more classical science. But it is also science versus at least the possibility of belief.

Cybercast News Service: There is a fair amount of discussion of creationism and how it might relate to intelligent design, and there are a lot of critics who say this is just folks with religious convictions trying to use intelligent design as a Trojan horse to advance a form of creationism. ... What sort of separation do you see or perhaps don't see between creationism, on the one hand, and intelligent design? Do you have your own definition of intelligent design, and is it distinct and different from creationism?

Ben Stein: Well, I would say it's creationism by someone. For me, I've always believed that there was a God. I've always believed that God created the heavens and earth - so, for me it's not a huge leap from there to intelligent design. I think for some of the people who work on intelligent design, they're not as long-time believers as I am. So, I would answer that question, in brief, by saying, I believe in God and God created the heavens and the earth and all the life on the earth. But what other people, who are intelligent design people, think, I could not characterize. (Listen to Audio)

Cybercast News Service: There is a segment in the film, where it's made clear that intelligent design can open up new areas of inquiry that could improve the human condition. One involves a neurosurgeon, Michael Egnor, and another scientist, Jon Wells, who indicate that given how the cells are put together, with eye toward intelligent design, and with the idea that animal cells have tiny turbines - or if viewed as tiny turbines - he was able to formulate a theory that said in the event these things malfunction and don't properly shut down and could break apart, this is the first step on the way to cancer. He seemed to be suggesting that intelligent design theory could open up a lot of possibilities into improving the human condition. He doesn't explicitly say 'a cure for cancer,' but at least providing additional insight into new areas of treatment or a better understanding of how cancer is formed. What is your reaction to that part of the film? What sort of potential is attached to research going forward?

Ben Stein: Well, I think, I wouldn't say, if you say intelligent design is the answer and we're all created by an intelligent designer - that does not by itself provide the cure to cancer or any other disease or does not provide any ideas about how to deal with a stroke or with the heart hammering blood into the brain. But I would say, if you accept a broader, an even broader premise than intelligent design, namely, don't foreclose anything in your study of the human body and of the cell, then you are a lot more likely to get somewhere. I'd put it like that. I don't think saying intelligent design just automatically gets you anywhere. (Listen to Audio)

Ben Stein: But I think if you say we are going to study everything, and we are not going to let anyone close down our rights of inquiry, then I think we are getting somewhere. But also, there is this big issue about RNA and DNA, and whether RNA and DNA can respond to changes in the world around them. I think we say it can respond to changes in the world around them and that neo-Darwinians say it can only do that by random chance - it only happens by random chance. We say the cell may have the possibility of doing itself in an intelligent way that there may be some intelligence in the cell itself so that's probably a big difference between the two of us. We, on this side, think at least there's a possibility. We believe there's some possibility the cell could have an intelligence of its own. (Listen to Audio)

Cybercast News Service: The film spends a fair amount of time on the complexity of the cell and makes the point that no one at the time, including Darwin himself - no one could have anticipated that level of complexity ...

Ben Stein: Not even close. (Listen to audio)

Cybercast News Service: In what way did the film have any influence or change in your thinking and how it relates to intelligent design or scientific inquiry?

Ben Stein: Oh, when I first started working on this, I had no remote clue of how complicated the cell was, and I was believer just because I'd always been a believer and the idea that an intelligent being created the universe. But after working with these scientists and interviewing them and learning about how complex the cell was and how unlikely the proposition was that it all happened by random chance, then I was just overwhelmed by this data. And I was just overwhelmed by the fact, at least as I am told, that Darwinists have never observed natural species being originated ... There's not even a clear definition of what a species is - and the Darwinists have no theory whatsoever about the origin of life, none whatsoever, except the most hazy, the kind of preposterous, New Age hypothesis. And I think our theory that there is a creator strikes even some people, even Dawkins very possibly, as more likely than it all happened by total chance.

Cybercast News Service: Mr. Dawkins describes the proponents of ID as being ignorant. They don't buy into the scientific consensus - a lot of arguments made that there is a rock solid consensus in favor of evolution to explain biology. What is your reaction to this notion of consensus, and how does this complicate the journey for scientist or academics open to the idea?

Ben Stein: It doesn't complicate it at all because Dawkins, at least in my opinion, is completely wrong, and we produced a number of people who are bona fide scientists who clearly believe there is a possibility of intelligent design. So, his idea that there is a complete rock solid consensus is completely wrong. I mean, God bless him, he's obviously an intelligent guy, but it's obviously wrong. The people we produced weren't actors pretending to be scientists - they were scientists. (Listen to Audio)

Cybercast News Service: Why do you think the very idea or suggestion of intelligent design is so antagonistic to scientists who claim they have evidence? Why not have the debate? If they are so confident, why not have debate?

Ben Stein: That's a deep question. That's a sociological, psychological and ethical question. One, if they are Darwinists and they owe their jobs to being Darwinists, they are not going to challenge the orthodoxy because that would challenge the whole basis of their jobs and their lives. So they are not going to challenge the ideology that has given them lush positions in real life. That's one thing. Second thing, once people are locked into a way of thinking, they are unlikely to change. Third is, if they acknowledge the possibility of intelligent design and that intelligent design is God, then they may think God has moral expectations of them and they may be falling short of those moral expectations, and they may be worried about some sort of judgment upon them. (Listen to Audio)

Cybercast News Service: The film starts with you giving a presentation about American freedom, and when you get near the end of the film there's a Polish official - I believe a member of the EU Parliament - who said there's actually more freedom and latitude in Poland than here in the United States to explore these questions, and he blames it on political correctness. Mr. Stein how did we get to this point? ... If there's more latitude for scientific inquiry overseas in a recently released communist country than there is in the United States of America?

Ben Stein: That is a very, very, very good question. How did we get here? I don't know. How did we get to this point in Hollywood? There's (sic) only certain attitudes allowed about military, religion, or small towns or about business? I don't know how we got to this, this kind of orthodoxy. I think there is this kind of Marxist establishment in this country that has been overthrown in other countries, but not overthrown here. There is a very powerful Marxist establishment within the intelligentsia that does not allow questioning of its premises. (Listen to Audio)

Cybercast News Service: What do you think needs to happen in academia? What suggestions or prescriptions do you think will come out of the film?

Ben Stein: We want more freedom. I just spoke to some young people in Orlando. And I said, this to us - at least to me, I don't know what it is to other people in the film - is a bit like the Civil Rights movement. You want to have freedom, where our goal is freedom. We want freedom. We want all our rights, not some of them, all our rights to free speech. We want them here in America, and we want them now. That's what we want; we're not going to get it. But we hope to open the door wider to some serious debate on these issues. (Listen to Audio)

Cybercast News Service: The point is made that journalists have a tendency to embrace the establishment position ...

Ben Stein: If the establishment position is the sort of left-wing establishment position. They are certainly not going to embrace the Republican establishment position. (Listen to Audio)

Cybercast News Service: This reminds me of the global warming debate. The Union of Concerned Scientists, exactly one year ago, put out a report on Exxon Mobil for their position on global warming, and in their report they say too often journalists' inclination to provide political balance leads to inaccurate reporting - and that members of the media should not quote ExxonMobil officials or anybody who questions the scientific consensus.

Ben Stein: Yes, that is precisely the analogy. Very well done. I totally agree. There are still plenty of scientists who question fossil fuels' role in global warming, but you're not allowed to question that anymore. (Listen to Audio)


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Uncommon Descent is a moral cesspool, a festering intellectual ghetto that intoxicates and degrades its inhabitants - Stephen Matheson

  
Nomad



Posts: 309
Joined: July 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 18 2008,02:12   

Quote
I think there is this kind of Marxist establishment in this country that has been overthrown in other countries, but not overthrown here


What?  He's saying that only in the US are the darwinistas in power?  And in the rest of the world ID is being received with open arms?

It's an interesting inversion of the usual rah rah USA rhetoric.  Now instead of the US being the best, suddenly we're the worst.  It still appears to rely on the audience's total ignorance of what anything outside the country is like.


Believe me I'm familiar with other means of acquiring intellectual property.  The thing about Expelled is that I'm interested in seeing what the audience is like.  My hope, futile or not, is that there'll just be a few people there to witness the spectacle, and we can all end up rolling in the aisles laughing at it.  I imagine lots of booing, and throwing popcorn at the screen.

I'm kind of doubting whether this will actually ever be widely released.  If I worked at it maybe I could find it in some country town an hour away from me, but I just don't see a movie accusing the scientific and academic world of being marxists doing all that well in the land of Fermilab and Argonne National Laboratory.
Granted that'd be worse for the Einstein denialist movie.  But I don't think that's coming anywhere near here.  Although I'd like to see a rampaging mob of respectable physicists as a result of it.  What would they wield instead of torches and pitchforks?

  
Henry J



Posts: 4037
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 18 2008,21:53   

Quote

Quote

Science should always be in the business of attempting to disprove itself.



Wonder if that guy's heard of the following hypotheses:

Phlogiston.

Lamarckism.

Steady State.

Newton's Laws (motion and gravity).

Bohr model of the atom.

Geocentrism.

Cold fusion.

Ether, and absolute motion relative to it.

Epicycles.

Blending inheritance.

Light regarded as strictly wave-like.

Light regarded as strictly particle-like.

(And those are just the ones that came to mind in a few minutes of thought.)

Quote

Quote

Ben Stein: But I think if you say we are going to study everything, and we are not going to let anyone close down our rights of inquiry, then I think we are getting somewhere.



Maybe if they'd take half the money they're pouring into P.R. and propaganda and put it into actually doing those inquiries they're talking about... Wait, what am I saying?

Henry

Edit: Add Aquatic Ape to the above list.

  
IanBrown_101



Posts: 927
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 18 2008,22:31   

Quote (Glen Davidson @ Jan. 17 2008,17:25)
Seems, too, that we've progressed from being Nazis to being Marxists:

 
Quote
I think there is this kind of Marxist establishment in this country that has been overthrown in other countries, but not overthrown here. There is a very powerful Marxist establishment within the intelligentsia that does not allow questioning of its premises.


Glen D

If it helps I'm almost a Marxist (I've been informed I'm a "Lenin lover"before, despite the fact I was, at the time, arguing AGAINST bolshevism, good ol' cognitive dissonance/ failure to understand what communism is despite knowing you hate it).

Unfortunately, I'm not in your country.

Ah well, at least Stein can burn effigies of Lenny.

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I'm not the fastest or the baddest or the fatest.

You NEVER seem to address the fact that the grand majority of people supporting Darwinism in these on line forums and blogs are atheists. That doesn't seem to bother you guys in the least. - FtK

Roddenberry is my God.

   
Bob O'H



Posts: 1963
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 19 2008,08:41   

There certainly has been a Marxist strand in evolutionary biologists.  Haldane and Maynard Smith in the UK come to mind.  And Lewontin and co. in the US.

For a really good read about how evolutionary biology and sociobiology developed, try Ullica Segerstråle's Defenders of the Truth, where the Marxist influence is one of the sub-plots.

Bob (not a Marxist.  At least not that Marx)

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ID theorists don’t postulate a designer for their arguments. - Crandaddy
There is no connection between a peppered moth, natural selection, and religion that I can see. - FtK

   
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 19 2008,15:32   

Quote (Bob O'H @ Jan. 19 2008,08:41)
There certainly has been a Marxist strand in evolutionary biologists.  Haldane and Maynard Smith in the UK come to mind.  And Lewontin and co. in the US.

For a really good read about how evolutionary biology and sociobiology developed, try Ullica Segerstråle's Defenders of the Truth, where the Marxist influence is one of the sub-plots.

Bob (not a Marxist.  At least not that Marx)

Richard Marx?




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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Kristine



Posts: 3037
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 29 2008,15:01   

Well I have to admit to being dead wrong about something:

I thought that the movie Network was a hilarious but empty satire of a set of circumstances that could never happen.

And now we have Ben Stein with his Howard Beale moment.

Good grief! Network has probably proved to be one of the most prescient visions of the future of all time, surpassing many classic sci fi films in predictive accuracy. And though I knew that future generations would laugh at Stein for having debauched himself before the entire world with Ken Ham-style creationists, the fact that he has made a major ass of himself regarding Wall Street while pushing back the release of this film-turd was not expected by me. I have never seen such bad judgement on the part of a prominent public figure outside of Michael Jackson.

Truly I am astonished. And when I wonder why this could happen, I am reminded of the line, “Because you’re on television, dummy!” Maybe being on television too much drives one insane?

If that’s the case then I give Wes, Lou, Steve Story, and even that warlock Rich Hughes the power of attorney to yank me from the radio show and send me camping if I happen to go nuts, so’s I can cut down some trees and suck at fishing and otherwise interact with reality. :)

Golly day, now I can’t flipping read the New York Times anymore. I don’t want to get addicted to SteinKrystolmeth or whatever it is. :p

"If this is the way he wants to go out, this is how he'll go out."

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Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 29 2008,15:22   

Quote
I have never seen such bad judgement on the part of a prominent public figure outside of Michael Jackson.


clearly you have never looked .here

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Kristine



Posts: 3037
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 29 2008,16:32   

Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Jan. 29 2008,14:22)
 
Quote
I have never seen such bad judgement on the part of a prominent public figure outside of Michael Jackson.


clearly you have never looked .here

Yeah, clearly I have not, Erasmus. My idea of trash is watching “American Princess” and Cleopatra with Liz Taylor one more time. Thanks, dude, I don’t have the tough rind you obviously do, and for my delicate safety I’ve also avoided the whole Dr. Phil/Britney/Oprah radiation and whatever Bobby Brown is doing, and wherever TF Fabian Basabe is in his honeymoon away from the honeymoon, which is what the rich call “work.”

Now I’m gonna have to pick up my brains from the carpet all the rest of the afternoon. Thanks for that, pal. :p

I’ll just check myself into a nursing home now if anyone cares.  :D

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Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
bystander



Posts: 301
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 29 2008,20:04   

Never let the truth get in the way of a good story. No professional trader or group of traders can move the market for more than a few minutes at a time. The big meltdown last week was cause by SocGen closing out the truly enormous trades put on by their rogue trader and that only lasted a day.

The real crooks in the markets are and always have been the salesmen. They push the gullible into buying instruments which they do not understand. Books such as FIASCO and Liar's Poker are fascinating reads, shame Stein has never even read the popular books on market manipulation.

Short sellers have been the boogy men in the markets ever since the 1930s Wall street crash. It's like blaming the undertaker for somebody dieing.

edit to add: I don't know why everybody is surprised that the NYTimes keeps him on. They don't get rid of people because they are wrong, they get rid of them because they are boring.

  
tsig



Posts: 320
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 30 2008,22:02   

Quote (Glen Davidson @ Jan. 15 2008,11:37)
I guess I should link to the page with the "challenge" as well, though I assume one can get to it from the "FAQ":

http://www.getexpelled.com/schools.php

This is added in edit, because I'd like to point out that it's quite a lot of money that they are using to get Xian schools to force kids to fill the theater seats:

Quote
0-99 ticket stubs submitted = $5 per ticket stub

100-299 ticket stubs submitted = $1,000 donated to your school

300-499 ticket stubs submitted = $2,500 donated to your school

500 ticket stubs submitted = $5,000 donated to your school


They're going to point to the numbers and claim the movie is popular, when they're paying as much as $10/ticket, and $5/ticket minimum, to have the schools force the kids to their dishonest "flick".

Glen D

I predict that a lot of churches are going to be left holding a bag of ticket stubs.

  
Advocatus Diaboli



Posts: 197
Joined: Nov. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 31 2008,07:17   

Is this old news: Darwin Film

Creation Ministries International has already begun a major international documentary film project to help challenge evolution in 2009. The film will take a critical look at some of Darwin's key ideas and will interview historians and scientists from a variety of views, including evolutionists. Together with wildlife footage from South America and dramatic re-enactments, the program will illustrate how the evolutionary viewpoint is far from the tried and tested science many believe it to be. It will shed some clear truth on the man Darwin, and his legend that has grown beyond historical fact.

Expelled is heading against stiff competition next year. Which will be the Top Tard in content?

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I once thought that I made a mistake, but I was wrong.

"I freely admit I’m a sociopath" - DaveScot

"Most importanly, the facts are on the side of ID." - scordova

"UD is the greatest website of all time." stevestory

   
Steverino



Posts: 407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 31 2008,11:03   

Both bits of schlock will go "straight to video" as they are nothing more than propaganda pieces created to sell to their own market.

Just more fleecing of the sheep.

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- Born right the first time.
- Asking questions is NOT the same as providing answers.
- It's all fun and games until the flying monkeys show up!

   
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