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Dr.GH



Posts: 1969
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: April 13 2007,17:40   

Quote (Zachriel @ April 13 2007,17:32)
And Sewell's secret message is in Pi.

Can I have mine alamode?

--------------
"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
C.J.O'Brien



Posts: 395
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 13 2007,18:10   

Zach:
Pi as the Library of Babel! I like it. Have you read the Borges story?

--------------
The is the beauty of being me- anything that any man does I can understand.
--Joe G

  
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4244
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 13 2007,18:27   

Quote (Zachriel @ April 13 2007,17:32)
So, the Bible is in Pi. The Book of the Dead is in Pi. The human genome is in Pi. This comment is in Pi. The true answers to all your questions are in Pi. The false answers to all your questions are in Pi. The winning lottery number is in Pi. The losing lottery ticket in your pocket is in Pi.

"From all these incontrovertible premises he deduced that the Library is total and that its shelves contain all possible combinations of the twenty-odd orthographic symbols...that is, everything which can be expressed, in all languages. Everything is there: the minute history of the future, the autobiographies of the archangels, the faithful catalogue of the Library, thousands and thousands of false catalogues, a demonstration of the fallacy of these catalogues, a demonstration of the fallacy of the true catalogue, the Gnostic gospel of Basilides, the commentary on this gospel, the veridical account of your death, a version of each book in all languages, the interpolations of every book in all books....

It is now four centuries since men have been wearying the hexagons..."

The Library of Babel, Jorge Luis Borges, 1941

[edit] C.J.O'Brien: we're on the same page! What were the chances, given a library of this size?

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
Kristine



Posts: 3046
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 13 2007,21:39   

Ah, Borges, the great librarian.

Actually though, I don't think their idea of ID is secret codes in Pi. It sounds more like turning the universe into a crossword puzzle to me - or a team game of Scrabble - ("It's your turn, Sal." "Psst Joseph, how can I create information out of ZXYWLRST?" "Well, just move the pieces around at random and see what you get, hahaha.") or one of those thingies in which words are hidden amongst random letters, and you have to circle the words...

Not unlike the Bible Code, eh, Bill? (Dembster! That was pathetic even for you! What about the Moby Dick code? What kind of revelations (other than the obvious) could I find in Origin of Species? I wonder how many "codes" one could find just in time for Darwin's 200th.) :)

--------------
Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 13 2007,22:22   

Quote
C.J.O'Brien: we're on the same page! What were the chances, given a library of this size?


More proof of design, of course!

Ha! I win again!-DT

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
k.e



Posts: 1948
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 13 2007,23:02   

Quote (Zachriel @ April 14 2007,01:32)
Quote (2ndclass @ April 13 2007,12:40)
Sewell: † † † †
Quote
But the important thing to notice here is that virtually all of the good arguments against design come from outside science, they are all basically philosophical, or even religious, objections. If it were not for these problems, I donít believe anyone could possibly look at mathematics, or physics, or chemistry, or especially at biology, without seeing design.

How does Sewell look at mathematics and see design? †Did he find a secret message embedded in pi?

Well, that's the amazing thing! You can see anything you want in Pi. Pi is believed to be "normal", meaning that its digits are indistinguishable from random. And any finite string will appear somewhere in an infinite random sequence with virtual certainty.



So, the Bible is in Pi. The Book of the Dead is in Pi. The human genome is in Pi. This comment is in Pi. The true answers to all your questions are in Pi. The false answers to all your questions are in Pi. The winning lottery number is in Pi. The losing lottery ticket in your pocket is in Pi. Mona Lisa smoking a cigarette is in Pi.



And Sewell's secret message is in Pi.

*Applause* Very Zen Zach ......Zavoury Zed's (or Zee's) Zenuflecting.

--------------
The conservative has but little to fear from the man whose reason is the servant of his passions, but let him beware of him in whom reason has become the greatest and most terrible of the passions.These are the wreckers of outworn empires and civilisations, doubters, disintegrators, deicides.Haldane

   
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 14 2007,05:15   

UD has picked up on the photosynthesis story
   
Quote
Is Photosynthesis Irreducibly Complex?

Apparently, ID "research" has determined this by bolding some of the words that a generous reading might imply design
For example      
Quote
ďThe process of photosynthesis is a very complex set of interdependent metabolic pathways,Ē said Robert Blankenship, professor of biochemistry at Arizona State University. ďHow it could have evolved is a bit mysterious

Of course, there is no ID explanation as to how it might have evolved (well, *poofed* into existence then).

Hey FTK, look      
Quote
ďWe know that the process evolved in bacteria, probably before 2.5 billion years ago, but the history of photosynthesisís development is very hard to trace,Ē said Blankenship.

Is 2.5 billion years more or less then the 6000 years old you  think the earth is?

Jehu comes to the rescue, and puts the ID scientist hat on
   
Quote
I am sorry but I donít buy the horizontal gene transfer story. What is clear in the article that you post is that there is no evidence of evolution of photosynthasis other than that it exists. The rest of the article strikes me as ďjust soĒ story telling.

So Jehu does not believe it, so it's not true. No reasons why, he just "does not buy it". FTK, there's your ID science right there.
Argument from incredulity - Link

If ID really was science, the first thing they would have done is calculated the probability of photosyntheses popping into existence all on it's own. And some sort of use of the EF would have been made!Don't laugh, Dembski has spend quite a few pages on the probability of things popping into existence fully formed. I mean, that's what evolution does best right? Make things appear with no precursors. We all know that. Cambrian explosion anybody? That proves it!
Link

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gaugerís work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
Bob O'H



Posts: 1994
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 14 2007,07:48   

Afarensis has an interesting hypothesis: Egnor and DaveTard are the same person.

Blipey: be careful when you go to meet Mr. Springer.  He might try to get inside your head.

Bob

--------------
It is fun to dip into the various threads to watch cluelessness at work in the hands of the confident exponent. - Soapy Sam (so say we all)

   
k.e



Posts: 1948
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 14 2007,08:12   

Quote
I mean, that's what evolution does best right? Make things appear with no precursors. We all know that. Cambrian explosion anybody? That proves it!
Link


But, but, but ...isn't that what ID does best?

The IDler created everything at the snap of his fingers

.....Cambrian Explosion? No problems .....We found his cigarette lighter, on a Palyean heath; it was a Zippo ....good old reliable American Science, runs on anything.

Ask yourself.....was the Cambrian explosion due to an errant Cosmic pyromaniac with access to lighter fluid, cordite and a train load of diesel soaked farm fertilizer....oh wait a minute...that was the Oklahomo bomber...well he DID think he was God and he was a member of some weird Christian cult on a power trip that included privately owned military ammunition of industrial quantities and the ability to use it ....that seems to fit the DembSpringer profile, so he probably was.

Lucky for us god wasn't some sort of long haired guy with a beard running around in sandals throwing money out of church windows and ticking off the establishment by saying the nerds will inherit the earth and blessed be the clown sized cream pie makers...no wonder gwd made sure GWB was elected Prez.

--------------
The conservative has but little to fear from the man whose reason is the servant of his passions, but let him beware of him in whom reason has become the greatest and most terrible of the passions.These are the wreckers of outworn empires and civilisations, doubters, disintegrators, deicides.Haldane

   
Zachriel



Posts: 2612
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 14 2007,09:22   

Quote (Dr.GH @ April 13 2007,17:40)
† † † † †  
Quote (Zachriel @ April 13 2007,17:32)
And Sewell's secret message is in Pi.

Can I have mine alamode?

Of course. You will find your Sewell's secret message ŗ la mode right next to several incomplete versions of Dembski's latest unedited manuscript.

† †  
Quote (C.J.O'Brien @ April 13 2007,18:10)
Zach:
Pi as the Library of Babel! I like it. Have you read the Borges story?

I've read all of Pi. The middle tends to meander a bit, but it has a great ending.

--------------
Not joey

   
Zachriel



Posts: 2612
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 14 2007,09:38   

[Edited out gaucheosity.]

What if someone hid a Mona Lisa in a genome?
Would we be able to find her?
Could we tell by the way she smiles?




--------------
Not joey

   
k.e



Posts: 1948
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 14 2007,09:52   

Quote (Zachriel @ April 14 2007,17:38)
Quote (Zachriel @ April 13 2007,17:32)
Mona Lisa smoking a cigarette is in Pi.


I'm surprised no one noted what kind of hand-rolled cigarette Mona was smokin'. (Look at the plant just behind her.) It also explains her famous half-smile.

What if someone hid a Mona Lisa in a genome?
Would we be able to find her?
Could we tell by the way she smiles?



Oh that would be so gauche, I noticed and took it as a given.  :)

--------------
The conservative has but little to fear from the man whose reason is the servant of his passions, but let him beware of him in whom reason has become the greatest and most terrible of the passions.These are the wreckers of outworn empires and civilisations, doubters, disintegrators, deicides.Haldane

   
snoeman



Posts: 109
Joined: April 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 14 2007,10:06   

Zach:
Quote
I've read all of Pi. The middle tends to meander a bit, but it has a great ending.


How did you like it compared to e?

  
keiths



Posts: 2041
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 14 2007,10:19   

Quote (Zachriel @ April 14 2007,09:22)

I've read all of Pi. The middle tends to meander a bit, but it has a great ending.

I found it a bit repetitive, myself.

--------------
And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number.  -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 14 2007,10:32   

Shaner74:  
Quote
What a sad state it is when weíre the only ones that can see design when itís so blatantly obvious. If our ďscientific communityĒ had any b*lls, they would throw darwin in the garbage and get on with science.

What does that mean shaner74? What would you have done differently in their place? We're waiting......
And whats with the scare quotes around scientific community? The "scientific community" helped build your PC and generally keeps the lights on. What has Dembski done of any practical use lately? Hmm, well I understand he does a good line in firelighters....


--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gaugerís work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
Lufeld



Posts: 19
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 14 2007,10:37   

Quote
I've read all of Pi. The middle tends to meander a bit, but it has a great ending.

You know the ending of Pi? Wow. I always tried hard but I never made it that far.
You should write a peer reviewed article about the end of Pi. But I suspect the dogmatic mathematicians will reject the article. It is so bad even in mathematics there is a conspiracy. Maybe you should try and publish your work about the end of pi in this
World famous science magazine
Altough it is always very tough to get an article through their peer rewiev process this time the fact that they seem to have some problems finding enough articles for the next edition  might help you. So good luck to you.

  
k.e



Posts: 1948
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 14 2007,10:51   

Quote (Lufeld @ April 14 2007,18:37)
Quote
I've read all of Pi. The middle tends to meander a bit, but it has a great ending.

You know the ending of Pi? Wow. I always tried hard but I never made it that far.
You should write a peer reviewed article about the end of Pi. But I suspect the dogmatic mathematicians will reject the article. It is so bad even in mathematics there is a conspiracy. Maybe you should try and publish your work about the end of pi in this
World famous science magazine
Altough it is always very tough to get an article through their peer rewiev process this time the fact that they seem to have some problems finding enough articles for the next edition †might help you. So good luck to you.

Yeah good point, even Finnegans [sic] Wake has an ending  and may actually be read in a lifetime.

--------------
The conservative has but little to fear from the man whose reason is the servant of his passions, but let him beware of him in whom reason has become the greatest and most terrible of the passions.These are the wreckers of outworn empires and civilisations, doubters, disintegrators, deicides.Haldane

   
Zachriel



Posts: 2612
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 14 2007,11:10   

Quote (Lufeld @ April 14 2007,10:37)
 
Quote
I've read all of Pi. The middle tends to meander a bit, but it has a great ending.

You know the ending of Pi? Wow. I always tried hard but I never made it that far.
You should write a peer reviewed article about the end of Pi. But I suspect the dogmatic mathematicians will reject the article. It is so bad even in mathematics there is a conspiracy. Maybe you should try and publish your work about the end of pi in this
World famous science magazine
Altough it is always very tough to get an article through their peer rewiev process this time the fact that they seem to have some problems finding enough articles for the next edition †might help you. So good luck to you.

Thanks. I'm having some trouble with the publisher. The editor says the manuscript is longer than Pi. I say it's just as long and no longer. It may require some editing.

--------------
Not joey

   
phonon



Posts: 396
Joined: Nov. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 14 2007,11:53   

Quote (Zachriel @ April 13 2007,17:32)
Mona Lisa smoking a cigarette is in Pi.


Um, yeah, that's a "cigarette."

;)


Hey, Kristine, I found something for you.
http://www.flickr.com/photos....5201613
Start from the top right button.

From: http://www.flickr.com/photos/kingpowercinema/sets/72157600065201613/

--------------
With most men, unbelief in one thing springs from blind belief in another. - Georg Christoph Lichtenberg

To do just the opposite is also a form of imitation. - Georg Christoph Lichtenberg

  
Lufeld



Posts: 19
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 14 2007,12:24   

Quote
Thanks. I'm having some trouble with the publisher. The editor says the manuscript is longer than Pi. I say it's just as long and no longer. It may require some editing.

Ah, now I understand. There is no next edition of the magazine, because the editor has some problems with the length of an article.  And editing an article about the ending of Pi might indeed take some time.
Thank you for enlightening me.

  
Bing



Posts: 144
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 14 2007,13:40   

Quote (Kristine @ April 13 2007,21:39)
("It's your turn, Sal." "Psst Joseph, how can I create information out of ZXYWLRST?"

Wasn't that the drummer's name in Hedwig and the Angry Inch?

  
phonon



Posts: 396
Joined: Nov. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 14 2007,14:17   

http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelli....complex
Quote
Conclusion? Obviously this is a brilliant piece of design

The conclusion is obvious. No science necessary.
End of story.

--------------
With most men, unbelief in one thing springs from blind belief in another. - Georg Christoph Lichtenberg

To do just the opposite is also a form of imitation. - Georg Christoph Lichtenberg

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2779
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 14 2007,15:14   

Quote (phonon @ April 14 2007,14:17)
http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelli....complex
   
Quote
Conclusion? Obviously this is a brilliant piece of design

The conclusion is obvious. No science necessary.
End of story.

Oh, but it's not the end of the story. Some nimrod named rrf chimes in with this
 
Quote
Did the authors calculate CSI? If not that would be a great project for some of the scientists here.


It certainly would be a great project; are there any scientists over there? We'll be waiting...

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
† † † † † † † † † † † † - Pattiann Rogers

   
Aardvark



Posts: 134
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 14 2007,15:34   

Creationist Museum Challenges Evolution (BBC)

Quote
As we prepare to leave, Eugenie Scott quietly slips a panda glove puppet from her handbag and photographs it among the dinosaurs.


;)

  
k.e



Posts: 1948
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 14 2007,22:15   

Quote (Bing @ April 14 2007,21:40)
Quote (Kristine @ April 13 2007,21:39)
("It's your turn, Sal." "Psst Joseph, how can I create information out of ZXYWLRST?"

Wasn't that the drummer's name in Hedwig and the Angry Inch?

Nah...that's Dave Scott Springer.....Jesus only gave him a foreskin.

WHO ARE YOU CALLING A ONE INCH ANGRY DICKHEAD, TRANSVESTITES. -dt

--------------
The conservative has but little to fear from the man whose reason is the servant of his passions, but let him beware of him in whom reason has become the greatest and most terrible of the passions.These are the wreckers of outworn empires and civilisations, doubters, disintegrators, deicides.Haldane

   
Richardthughes



Posts: 10324
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 14 2007,23:11   

http://www.uncommondescent.com/just-fo....-116721

Quote
15

Designed Jacob

04/14/2007

8:57 pm
Alternately, his atheist friends from school may have talked him into this.


HOMESCHOOL! HOMESCHOOL! HOMESCHOOL!

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Bob O'H



Posts: 1994
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 14 2007,23:56   

idnet.com.au shows his ignorance -

http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelli....-116711
Quote
The energy crisis could be solved if we were able to use a modified photosynthesis complex to either just form H2 and O2, or store charge separation (a battery), or to form CH4 or C2H6 and O2. No more green house gases, no more globaal warming crisis.


And Designed Jacob's disguise slips in his response:

Quote
Whatís gonna be emitted when you burn the methane and ethane?


Bob

--------------
It is fun to dip into the various threads to watch cluelessness at work in the hands of the confident exponent. - Soapy Sam (so say we all)

   
Kristine



Posts: 3046
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2007,00:48   

Oh you "disagree" with angry Catholic mom's methods, do you WinglesS? † †
Quote
6

WinglesS

04/11/2007

11:54 pm
You shouldnít force people to believe in God any more than you should force them to believe in evolution. Granted, some beliefs might be more irrational than others, but perhaps a personís point of view can be changed with prayer, reason and example. If everything else fails though, I still hold that what a person chooses to believe in is his right and choice.
Remember that true belief is a decision of the heart, and going to church doesnít make one a Christian any more than entering a plane makes one a pilot.

While I understand the motherís concern for her son, I disagree with her methods.

What compassion! Why do I find that hilarious?  
Quote
60

WinglesS

12/10/2006

11:51 am
I donít think atheists are inclined to give away their money away. There is no reason to. It takes a more than just a good mood to get people in general to give away 10% of their income.

Then later, after I said I was leaving (you're a courageous one, WinglesS):
Quote
For a single person to give money away without grounds [emphasis mine] is also not hard to find. Or for a person to give money away on a whim isnít hard to find either. For the populace in general to give money away consistently is another. I didnít say that altruism is impossible for an atheist. Itís not impossible, but itís impossible to justify consistently.

Geez, it's a good thing you don't believe in "forcing anyone to believe in anything" after telling me that I need to believe in something other than the somethings I already believe in (that you apparently don't) in order to give my $$$ away.

Yeah, come over to my blog anytime (preferably after finals this Wed.) and explain that to me WinglesS. Then tell me how Buddhists, who don't have a deity at all, can't give their money away either. Tell me about Taoists. I'm waiting for your superior charitable wisdom.

--------------
Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
stevestory



Posts: 9027
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2007,01:02   

Quote (Kristine @ April 15 2007,01:48)
Oh you "disagree" with angry Catholic mom's methods, do you WinglesS?      
Quote
6

WinglesS

04/11/2007

11:54 pm
You shouldnít force people to believe in God any more than you should force them to believe in evolution. Granted, some beliefs might be more irrational than others, but perhaps a personís point of view can be changed with prayer, reason and example. If everything else fails though, I still hold that what a person chooses to believe in is his right and choice.
Remember that true belief is a decision of the heart, and going to church doesnít make one a Christian any more than entering a plane makes one a pilot.

While I understand the motherís concern for her son, I disagree with her methods.

What compassion! Why do I find that hilarious?  
Quote
60

WinglesS

12/10/2006

11:51 am
I donít think atheists are inclined to give away their money away. There is no reason to. It takes a more than just a good mood to get people in general to give away 10% of their income.

Then later, after I said I was leaving (you're a courageous one, WinglesS):
 
Quote
For a single person to give money away without grounds [emphasis mine] is also not hard to find. Or for a person to give money away on a whim isnít hard to find either. For the populace in general to give money away consistently is another. I didnít say that altruism is impossible for an atheist. Itís not impossible, but itís impossible to justify consistently.

Geez, it's a good thing you don't believe in "forcing anyone to believe in anything" after telling me that I need to believe in something other than the somethings I already believe in (that you apparently don't) in order to give my $$$ away.

Yeah, come over to my blog anytime (preferably after finals this Wed.) and explain that to me WinglesS. Then tell me how Buddhists, who don't have a deity at all, can't give their money away either. Tell me about Taoists. I'm waiting for your superior charitable wisdom.

If you see a little girl about to step off the curb, and a bus is coming, do you sit around thinking up a justification of why you should yank her back onto the curb? No. You just yank her back onto the curb.

Demanding that atheists justify their ethics, when the evidence is that they're as ethical as anybody else, always struck me as stupid thinking. A while ago, scientists didn't know how bumblebees flew. The proper response wasn't to interrogate bumblebees and demand they can prove they can fly. They can. The proper response was to realize your notions of aerodynamics are inadequate.

   
Richardthughes



Posts: 10324
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2007,01:18   

Gates, Buffet and Soros ensure that atheists are the most generous per capita, by an order of magnitude.

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
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