Joined: Oct. 2009
|Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 17 2011,16:28)|
|Yes, evil is everywhere. And the church, which should be held to a higher moral standard, is no different than the general populace. 4% of priests in the US have had sexual contact with a minor, which is about the exact same as the general population. So one must ask, what is the point of the church?|
I have no idea if you’re 4% is accurate or not.
Then you haven't done any research into the subject at all and it's pretty much a waste of time arguing anything of any substance with you.
But, I’ll repeat, I’m not Catholic, and I’ve not been in a church that had an issue with pedophilia among our leaders. We have had other sexual issues...adultery, once a man got snagged for soliciting sex.
Interesting... and all this in a church. With higher moral standards than the non-religious.
The thing you have to remember is that yes, we try to hold ourselves up to a higher standard, but people don’t go to church because they are saints, they go because they are sinners. At least that is what I’ve always been led to believe.
Why are we sinners? Who decides? Who decides what's a sin?
Remember, you're own Jesus supports slavery and the murder of disobedient children. But since you don't, you actually have a higher moral standard than your own God.
I attend a non denominational church, btw. Was brought up Lutheran. What is the point of the church? Um, I think I mentioned several earlier. Our mutual beliefs (for the most part), our sense of community and support of one another in times of trouble. Services projects for those in need. The church is an excellent source of comfort and support.
That's exactly what I'm saying. Why do you need the church for anything other than support of your mutual beliefs?
Can no other reason for helping others exist?
I would much rather help someone because I wanted to rather than going to hell because I don't.
|I'd like to point out that in the case of general society, there is a 'lone gunman' if you will. A single person who is acting in an anti-social immoral fashion. However, with churches, you end up with a single person acting like this, and then a number of people who knowingly SUPPORT that individual's activities. This can be lying to police and parents, moving the offender to a place that they cannot be prosecuted, quietly making some payments to victims in exchange for their silence. If you include these accessories to illegal and immoral activities, the churches often have much higher rates than the general public.|
I think you’re stretching it here beyond belief. You only see the bad apparently, the crap the media likes to highlight if at all possible to find. I certainly would NOT support immoral activity, and I’ve watched a few leaders asked to step down because of issues that may have occurred...usually adultery. It happens...we’re not perfect in the church as I mentioned. Were you Catholic? You must have been involved in something to have such a horrible outlook. If you’ve had no church experience and feel this much anger, maybe you should get involved in a couple to see what is really going on?
Why do you keep harping on my experiences? Does my experience change any of the above facts?
Would all of the above be OK if I was a Christian?
I have a horrible outlook because religion offends me. It should offend everyone, but people are too weak to think critically. For example, yourself. I've quoted data here and you can't even be bothered to see if I'm right.
|I don't think you are Catholic, but do you find it surprising that some 2.5 billion dollars (1950-2009) has been paid out to victims and in related costs. Where does the money to operate churches come from? The parishioners. So the people of the church are paying to support these activities. I don't know what church organization you belong to, but you might investigate to see what (if any) of these things your church organization is paying for.|
Im not Catholic. I think it’s ridiculous to demand that Priest’s not marry. That is asking for trouble. I can’t imagine why my own church would lend support monetarily or otherwise to help the Catholic church with their sexual issues...lol.
I'm not talking about your church. I'm talking about church as an organization.
As soon as you make an organization out of it, the whole thing goes to hell. Literally.
Like I said, Im confident as to where my money is going. I see what is happening with my own eyes. Im not really involved in a huge church establishment like the Catholic Church. We’re non denominational...there is no hierarchy (ie Papacy) outside of our church that I’m aware of that oversees what we do. We have our own checks and balances.
|You didn't answer my question (heck, you hardly ever answer any of my questions, I don't know why I'm surprised).|
I think I do a pretty good job of addressing your questions. Let me know if I miss anything here.
|Is it possible to be good and do good works without religion or the church?|
Of course...without a doubt.
|So, with all that in mind, I'll ask again, what is the point of the church?|
I’ve answered that several times today.
So mutual support of your beliefs is the only reason for church. OK, I understand that now.
Why don't you follow the Bible then?
Why? because your moral standard is higher than that contained in the Bible. Why is that> Because you are a product of your society and culture more than your religion.
|If you can do good works without the church and you can be a moral person without the church, then the church is pretty much reduced to worship of the deity. Since there are multiple deities all of which claim to be the only deity and many of which are mutually contradictory...|
why not skip the entire church and just do good stuff on your own?
Organizations are far better than individuals to manage and keep “good works” going strong. And, of course, our main reason for being at church is to worship God and learn from His word. This is what keeps us striving to live a moral life. Maybe you’re just much better than 99.9% of the population. If I wasn’t a believer and didn’t attend church, I have no doubt I’d get into a lot of questionable stuff much easier than without that weekly reminder of how God wants me to live my life. Maybe that’s why we sinners need church and you don’t.
Who decides what the stuff you do is questionable? Your religion does. That's a catch-22 for you. If you aren't religious, then won't be questioning 90% of what you do anymore. Look at the ten (14) commandments. How many are codified into laws of the land? Only 3.
Would like to do something that your religion says is immoral? OK, so do it, if it doesn't break the law of the land.
You'll be much happier and feel a lot better about yourself if you don't tangle your modern morals and 2000-year-old rules.
|Of course, we're digressing from the topic here... or maybe not... I think the topic was clueless religious people who don't get that saying someone is going to hell isn't exactly the trait of a friend.|
I wouldn’t know about that. I’ve never told anyone they are going to hell. Only God knows a person’s heart. We’ve absolutely no room to judge in that particular respect.
Then you are a rare Christian... though I'm not sure I believe you.
There is no God and your heart doesn't have anything in it except muscle.
|Look, I freely admit that I hate churches. I hate religion. It makes otherwise nice people into idiots and it makes smart people stupid. There is no benefit to society that religion does that cannot be done without religion.|
It’s a shame you feel that way. If you took away every religious establishment in the world, you’d lose billions upon billions of dollars that benefit others.
No you wouldn't. You would gain all the money that goes to churches and put the majority to use by actual organizations that help people without requiring them to be saved before helping them.
The Catholic church alone has established the grand majority of hospitals in the US.
And those hospitals have almost killed women because they refuse to perform medically necessary abortions.
Could go on and on here, but you’ve set your mind against seeing anything but the negative which is relatively insignificant in comparison to the good that occurs in the church.
Yes, because, unlike you, I've actually researched the subject and not based it on a sample size of 1.
|There is no benefit to an individual that cannot be done outside of religion, except in the case where religion causes the individual stress in the first place.|
Would hate to see that assumption put to test. It would be a sad day for the world.
Are you kidding, it would be a wonderful day for the world.
Were you brought up in a religious home or did you grown up hating religion without any warrant other than what you read?
Again, what difference does it make?
Does me being raised in a religious home change any of the facts I've stated?
Does me being raised in an atheist home change any of the facts I've stated?
Nevermind. You claim I'm the one that has blinders on, but you can't even be bothered to find out if I'm telling the truth in anything I've said.
A sad waste of breath.
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.