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Quack



Posts: 1758
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 10 2012,05:56   

Quote (midwifetoad @ Aug. 09 2012,17:10)
graphic from the 1000 genomes project
http://www.genome.gov/2754224....7542240


Maybe it is all over my head and nothing for me in it, but I'll never know. Because my ears are not good enough to copy the lecture, and I presume no transcripts exist or will be made?

--------------
YEC creationists denigrate science without an inkling of what their lives would be without it. YEC creationism is an enrageous, abominable insult to the the human intellect.
                                                         Me.

  
dvunkannon



Posts: 1377
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 10 2012,09:11   

Quote (Quack @ Aug. 10 2012,06:56)
Quote (midwifetoad @ Aug. 09 2012,17:10)
graphic from the 1000 genomes project
http://www.genome.gov/2754224....7542240


Maybe it is all over my head and nothing for me in it, but I'll never know. Because my ears are not good enough to copy the lecture, and I presume no transcripts exist or will be made?

Click through the link, and you can see the slides as well as the Youtube videos. Not quite a transcript, but better than nothing...

--------------
Iím referring to evolution, not changes in allele frequencies. - Cornelius Hunter
Iím not an evolutionist, Iím a change in allele frequentist! - Nakashima

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 3560
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 10 2012,09:17   

http://googlesystem.blogspot.com/2009.......on.html

These particular lectures are captioned. click the cc button at the bottom.

These are not speech recognition captions, but real transcriptions. Hope that helps. I have some hearing loss also, and I think this is great.


And you can make the fonts bigger and bolder. Click cc and choose settings.

Edited by midwifetoad on Aug. 10 2012,09:28

--------------
Ēletís not make a joke of ourselves.Ē

Pat Robertson

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3305
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 17 2012,10:07   

Four Independent Mutations in the Feline Fibroblast Growth Factor 5 Gene Determine the Long-Haired Phenotype in Domestic Cats

Here's a good that will blow creationists minds.

Mutation 1: 3 unrelated Ragdoll cats contained an insertion mutation.  The frameshift created an early stop codon rendering the FGF5 incorrect.  All three Ragdolls were long hair, no short-hair cats had this mutation

Mutation 2: Only Norwegian Forest cats had this mutation.  It's a substitution (C to a T @ 406).  Somehow (and the article isn't specific) this results in a premature stop codon.  3 of 4 Norwegian Forest cats were homozygous for this mutation.  The 4th cat was heterozygous for this mutation and number 4 below.  Again, the result is long hair.

Mutation 3: 1 ragdoll and 3 Maine Coon cats had this mutation.  This is "extensive nonsynonymous substitutions" rendering FGF5 nonfunctional.  1 Coon cat was homozygous for this mutation, while the other 3 long-hairs were heterozygous for this and for mutation 4.

Mutation 4: point mutation (A to C @ 475), resulting in the substitution of a threonine with proline .  The majority of long-hair cats were homozygous for this mutation.  Five short-hair breeds (British Shorthair, Devon Rex, Manx, and 2 Scottish folds) were heterozygous carriers.  No short-hair breeds were homozygous for this mutation.

OK IDists.  There are 4 mutations, two of which are point mutations (no change in the length of the gene) and another one is an insertion (increasing the length of the gene).  However, all of these changes result in a protein that doesn't work.  However (again), these mutations result in a significant advantage, that is long-hair, in certain circumstances.

Now define information and how an increase in the length of the gene and an increase in the length of the hair equals a loss of information.

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

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k.e..



Posts: 2898
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 17 2012,10:21   

Quote (OgreMkV @ Aug. 17 2012,18:07)
Four Independent Mutations in the Feline Fibroblast Growth Factor 5 Gene Determine the Long-Haired Phenotype in Domestic Cats

Here's a good that will blow creationists minds.

Mutation 1: 3 unrelated Ragdoll cats contained an insertion mutation. †The frameshift created an early stop codon rendering the FGF5 incorrect. †All three Ragdolls were long hair, no short-hair cats had this mutation

Mutation 2: Only Norwegian Forest cats had this mutation. †It's a substitution (C to a T @ 406). †Somehow (and the article isn't specific) this results in a premature stop codon. †3 of 4 Norwegian Forest cats were homozygous for this mutation. †The 4th cat was heterozygous for this mutation and number 4 below. †Again, the result is long hair.

Mutation 3: 1 ragdoll and 3 Maine Coon cats had this mutation. †This is "extensive nonsynonymous substitutions" rendering FGF5 nonfunctional. †1 Coon cat was homozygous for this mutation, while the other 3 long-hairs were heterozygous for this and for mutation 4.

Mutation 4: point mutation (A to C @ 475), resulting in the substitution of a threonine with proline . †The majority of long-hair cats were homozygous for this mutation. †Five short-hair breeds (British Shorthair, Devon Rex, Manx, and 2 Scottish folds) were heterozygous carriers. †No short-hair breeds were homozygous for this mutation.

OK IDists. †There are 4 mutations, two of which are point mutations (no change in the length of the gene) and another one is an insertion (increasing the length of the gene). †However, all of these changes result in a protein that doesn't work. †However (again), these mutations result in a significant advantage, that is long-hair, in certain circumstances.

Now define information and how an increase in the length of the gene and an increase in the length of the hair equals a loss of information.

EASY, HOMO EVOMAT CHANCE WORSHIPPER!

INFORMATION; TODAY'S NEWS .... TOMORROW'S FISH AND CHIP WRAPPER.

HAIR TODAY, GONE TOMORROW.

©davetard.

...oh...erm...

--------------
"I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his clown DaveTard suit" dogdidit
"Abbie Smith (ERV) who's got to be the most obnoxious arrogant snot I've ever seen except for when I look in a mirror" DAVE TARD
"ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 3560
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 17 2012,12:16   

The genome designed itself. It was preloaded with software to do that. OK?

Especially the folds. Cuteness is a big plus for survival.

Rex cats are obviously the work of Satan.

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Ēletís not make a joke of ourselves.Ē

Pat Robertson

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3305
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 17 2012,13:30   

Quote (midwifetoad @ Aug. 17 2012,12:16)
The genome designed itself. It was preloaded with software to do that. OK?

Especially the folds. Cuteness is a big plus for survival.

Rex cats are obviously the work of Satan.

No! No! No!

I have empirical evidence... well... anecdotal, but robust evidence... that white cats are the work of satan.  They are universally (with a sample size of 3) mean... especially if they are girl cats... and fixed... and have short hair.

I watched one of those beat the holy crap out of a German Shepard which, BTW, is obviously one of the stupidest dog breeds in existence (with an observational sample size of 1)... or maybe my grandad just got a mentally deficient one.  That dog was truly the dumbest animal ever... and I've had sugar gliders.  Loyal though and stronger than a horse.  He had to go to jail three times for attacking people (all justified)... but got the crap beat out of him (needing stitches and almost losing an eye) by a 4 pound white cat.

See!?!?!?

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
dvunkannon



Posts: 1377
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 17 2012,14:04   

Quote (OgreMkV @ Aug. 17 2012,14:30)
Quote (midwifetoad @ Aug. 17 2012,12:16)
The genome designed itself. It was preloaded with software to do that. OK?

Especially the folds. Cuteness is a big plus for survival.

Rex cats are obviously the work of Satan.

No! No! No!

I have empirical evidence... well... anecdotal, but robust evidence... that white cats are the work of satan. †They are universally (with a sample size of 3) mean... especially if they are girl cats... and fixed... and have short hair.

I watched one of those beat the holy crap out of a German Shepard which, BTW, is obviously one of the stupidest dog breeds in existence (with an observational sample size of 1)... or maybe my grandad just got a mentally deficient one. †That dog was truly the dumbest animal ever... and I've had sugar gliders. †Loyal though and stronger than a horse. †He had to go to jail three times for attacking people (all justified)... but got the crap beat out of him (needing stitches and almost losing an eye) by a 4 pound white cat.

See!?!?!?

Just ask Ernst Stavro Blofeld.

--------------
Iím referring to evolution, not changes in allele frequencies. - Cornelius Hunter
Iím not an evolutionist, Iím a change in allele frequentist! - Nakashima

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 3560
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 17 2012,14:10   

I have Italian Greyhounds, and the cat is heavier than both of them together. The cat wants to be friends, but the dogs are justifiably terrified.
Cats have more and better weapons. Dogs have to expose their faces to attack, and cats don't. Satan is the better designer.

My experience is that white cats are pussycats. The yellow cat, now deceased had several names. Yellow Peril, Attila, Dr. Evil. The hand that reached out to him would not be returned in it's original condition.

--------------
Ēletís not make a joke of ourselves.Ē

Pat Robertson

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3305
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 17 2012,14:20   

Quote (midwifetoad @ Aug. 17 2012,14:10)
I have Italian Greyhounds, and the cat is heavier than both of them together. The cat wants to be friends, but the dogs are justifiably terrified.
Cats have more and better weapons. Dogs have to expose their faces to attack, and cats don't. Satan is the better designer.

My experience is that white cats are pussycats. The yellow cat, now deceased had several names. Yellow Peril, Attila, Dr. Evil. The hand that reached out to him would not be returned in it's original condition.

The white cat I referred to hated everyone and everything except me and my mom.  At least one of my mom's boyfriends was chased out of the house by the cat.

When she was 16, a friend of mine came over and we were watching a movie.  She crawled into his lap and went to sleep.  He was scared to touch her.

She never left our house for 17 years, then she decided to go on walkabouts.  She'd leave for about two weeks, then come back to get fed and cleaned up.  She kept that up for two years before a dump truck killed her.  I now joke that it was the only thing big enough to.

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
midwifetoad



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Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 17 2012,14:36   

One more thing and I'll stop. the mailman threatened to stop delivering our mail if we didn't keep Attila inside. We were his forth home.

--------------
Ēletís not make a joke of ourselves.Ē

Pat Robertson

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 3560
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 20 2012,04:56   

Trivia time:
The author of this
http://www.asa3.org/ASA....ns.html

Is ChemCam Principal Investigator Roger Wiens of Los Alamos National Laboratory, N.M.,  in charge of the laser rock zapper on the new Mars rover.

--------------
Ēletís not make a joke of ourselves.Ē

Pat Robertson

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3305
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 21 2012,10:18   

http://spectrum.ieee.org/automat....e-track

This is pretty cool (thanks dv).  

Why don't they use evolutionary algorithms for determining how to drive?  Lap time would be a good fitness measure and you could run a couple thousand sims before putting it in a real car.

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

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dvunkannon



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Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 22 2012,14:11   

Quote (OgreMkV @ Aug. 21 2012,11:18)
http://spectrum.ieee.org/automat....e-track

This is pretty cool (thanks dv). †

Why don't they use evolutionary algorithms for determining how to drive? †Lap time would be a good fitness measure and you could run a couple thousand sims before putting it in a real car.

They do.

http://www.csse.uwa.edu.au/cig08....043.pdf

--------------
Iím referring to evolution, not changes in allele frequencies. - Cornelius Hunter
Iím not an evolutionist, Iím a change in allele frequentist! - Nakashima

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3305
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 22 2012,14:44   

Quote (dvunkannon @ Aug. 22 2012,14:11)
Quote (OgreMkV @ Aug. 21 2012,11:18)
http://spectrum.ieee.org/automat....e-track

This is pretty cool (thanks dv). †

Why don't they use evolutionary algorithms for determining how to drive? †Lap time would be a good fitness measure and you could run a couple thousand sims before putting it in a real car.

They do.

http://www.csse.uwa.edu.au/cig08......043.pdf

Coolness.  Thanks!

If you have any more using GAs, let me know.

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
midwifetoad



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Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 22 2012,14:59   

You know the driving rules are smuggled into the algorithm.

Seriously, I have a question for evilutionists. What is the problem with learning as a metaphor for evolution?

I know there's a huge difference in the supporting substrate, but the process seems to be the same. When an organism is learning, There is no invocation of magic regarding where the information comes from.

I see all these battles over the word information, when it seems to me that however loosely the term is used, it can be a useful metaphor. The battle should be to understand that learning is an accumulation of information, and that evolution is learning.

--------------
Ēletís not make a joke of ourselves.Ē

Pat Robertson

  
Henry J



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Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 22 2012,15:30   

Yep, an evolving gene pool does show some of the same properties as a neural network.

One difference is that a neural network would probably keep records of things that didn't work as well as things that did, while a gene pool tends to drop records of things that didn't work.

And of course there's technical differences in how the nodes are connected to each other. I'm not show what part of a gene pool would be analogous to a node.

  
The whole truth



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Joined: Jan. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 22 2012,21:47   

According to IDiot creationists, "the designer" (god) deliberately designed and created everything, and especially everything biological, which would include deadly KPC. In the situation reported in that article, scientists obviously went against the designer's (god's) will and not only figured out that KPC has evolved to be drug and disinfectant resistant, but they stopped the designer's (god's) murderous intent and actions before even more people were killed.

Hmm, I wonder why 'ID/creation scientists' (LOL), in all their advanced research facilities (LOL) and with all their advanced knowledge (LOL), didn't figure out KPC before it killed even one person and how to prevent it from killing anyone else?

The moral of the story:

The IDiot creationists worship a so-called "intelligent designer" (god) that likes to design things that kill people (and everything else) in horrible ways.

"ID" is useless, bogus, and nothing but a creationist, dominionist agenda.

Evolution occurs.

Science isn't perfect but it works.

--------------
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. - Jesus in Matthew 10:34

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. -Jesus in Luke 19:27

   
The whole truth



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(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 22 2012,22:48   

A few interesting articles:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/release....742.htm

http://www.sciencedaily.com/release....212.htm

http://www.sciencedaily.com/release....255.htm

--------------
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. - Jesus in Matthew 10:34

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. -Jesus in Luke 19:27

   
dvunkannon



Posts: 1377
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 23 2012,10:00   

Quote (midwifetoad @ Aug. 22 2012,15:59)
You know the driving rules are smuggled into the algorithm.

Seriously, I have a question for evilutionists. What is the problem with learning as a metaphor for evolution?

I know there's a huge difference in the supporting substrate, but the process seems to be the same. When an organism is learning, There is no invocation of magic regarding where the information comes from.

I see all these battles over the word information, when it seems to me that however loosely the term is used, it can be a useful metaphor. The battle should be to understand that learning is an accumulation of information, and that evolution is learning.

I don't think it is a good metaphor, but I think the discussion sounds fun!

What kind of learning are we talking about? High level human learning as in figuring out how to be more attractive to women? Or neural network back propagation?

In learning, there is no population, and no crossing/mutating of 'memes'. (I think that Dawkins' use of that term referred to cultural change.)

In back propagation in particular, there is a goal. You are training the neural network with a set of examples. The experimenter isn't smuggling information, she is delivering through the front gate.

An IDist might try to dismiss GA results with "That isn't evolving, that is just learning!" (And Bob Marks could spin that line better than anyone, given his strong background in NN research.) I think the paradigms are different enough that there are clear distinctions.

--------------
Iím referring to evolution, not changes in allele frequencies. - Cornelius Hunter
Iím not an evolutionist, Iím a change in allele frequentist! - Nakashima

  
midwifetoad



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Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 23 2012,10:14   

The neural net would be the population. In the simplest view, what gets selected is associations. In the behaviorist model what gets selected is tendencies to do specific things in specific contexts.

In a physiological  view, each neuron must have something equivalent to genes, a storage system that determines its contextual responses. Something that can vary and also store.

Where's febble?

Edited by midwifetoad on Aug. 23 2012,10:16

--------------
Ēletís not make a joke of ourselves.Ē

Pat Robertson

  
The whole truth



Posts: 985
Joined: Jan. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 26 2012,03:15   

Coming to a camera near you?

Lens

--------------
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. - Jesus in Matthew 10:34

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. -Jesus in Luke 19:27

   
dvunkannon



Posts: 1377
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 26 2012,10:07   

Quote (midwifetoad @ Aug. 23 2012,11:14)
The neural net would be the population. In the simplest view, what gets selected is associations. In the behaviorist model what gets selected is tendencies to do specific things in specific contexts.

In a physiological †view, each neuron must have something equivalent to genes, a storage system that determines its contextual responses. Something that can vary and also store.

Where's febble?

So in this analogy, the population is the set of neurons, the individual is the neuron and the gene is some stable aspect of the neuron, like excitation threshold.

What is not captured is the connectivity, and in learning it is the strength of these connections that varies.

So I'm still not seeing evolution as a good analogy to learning, or vice versa.

--------------
Iím referring to evolution, not changes in allele frequencies. - Cornelius Hunter
Iím not an evolutionist, Iím a change in allele frequentist! - Nakashima

  
dvunkannon



Posts: 1377
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 26 2012,10:11   

Quote (The whole truth @ Aug. 26 2012,04:15)
Coming to a camera near you?

Lens

Good for telecom applications (as they say) where you are working with only one wavelength of light from a laser. We have to wait and see if it can work with multiple frequencies at once.

Of course, for a digital camera, it only has to work with three frequencies at once. The light capturing wells have a Bayer filter in front of them, so each well sees only one specific red, green, or blue wavelength.

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Iím referring to evolution, not changes in allele frequencies. - Cornelius Hunter
Iím not an evolutionist, Iím a change in allele frequentist! - Nakashima

  
fnxtr



Posts: 2124
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 26 2012,13:02   

Quote (dvunkannon @ Aug. 26 2012,08:11)
Quote (The whole truth @ Aug. 26 2012,04:15)
Coming to a camera near you?

Lens

Good for telecom applications (as they say) where you are working with only one wavelength of light from a laser. We have to wait and see if it can work with multiple frequencies at once.

Of course, for a digital camera, it only has to work with three frequencies at once. The light capturing wells have a Bayer filter in front of them, so each well sees only one specific red, green, or blue wavelength.

Or 3 lenses with adjustable range focus, a sort of tri-ocular vision... 3-colour 3D? Hmmm...

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"But it's disturbing to think someone actually thinks creationism -- having put it's hand on the hot stove every day for the last 400 years -- will get a different result tomorrow." -- midwifetoad

  
Henry J



Posts: 4069
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 26 2012,23:00   

Quote
So in this analogy, the population is the set of neurons, the individual is the neuron and the gene is some stable aspect of the neuron, like excitation threshold.

But (AFAIK) neurons don't typically come and go the way individuals in a species do.

I'm not sure if a gene pool has something analogous to a connection strength, unless it's how close two genes are on the chromosome. And that's not a stable value over time.

The math might work too differently for the analogy to be useful in the details.

Henry

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 3560
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 27 2012,02:43   

Quote (Henry J @ Aug. 26 2012,23:00)
Quote
So in this analogy, the population is the set of neurons, the individual is the neuron and the gene is some stable aspect of the neuron, like excitation threshold.

But (AFAIK) neurons don't typically come and go the way individuals in a species do.

I'm not sure if a gene pool has something analogous to a connection strength, unless it's how close two genes are on the chromosome. And that's not a stable value over time.

The math might work too differently for the analogy to be useful in the details.

Henry

The physica substrate is quite different, so the analogy has limitations. But you have variation, selection and incremental change. You have the accumulation of changes building complex behaviors that cannot be a hieved in one step.

I don't know of any emulation of evolution that simulates  chemistry, so they all have limitations.

--------------
Ēletís not make a joke of ourselves.Ē

Pat Robertson

  
dvunkannon



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Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 27 2012,09:31   

Simpler genetic code still works:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/release....404.htm

One small step back, and an interesting hypothesis at the end of the piece about how new assignments could spread.

--------------
Iím referring to evolution, not changes in allele frequencies. - Cornelius Hunter
Iím not an evolutionist, Iím a change in allele frequentist! - Nakashima

  
Henry J



Posts: 4069
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 27 2012,11:40   

Bill Nye 'The Science Guy' Hits Evolution Deniers

Quote
In a clip posted to online knowledge forum Big Think via YouTube, former children's show host Bill Nye spoke out against the denial of evolution, saying such views harm young people especially and hamper scientific progress.

  
keiths



Posts: 2041
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 28 2012,22:52   

Male Snails Babysit for Philandering Females

Question:  Were the shameless snail hussies Designed that way, or is this the result of the Fall?

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And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number.  -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
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