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  Topic: Uncommonly Dense Thread 4, Fostering a Greater Understanding of IDC< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
midwifetoad



Posts: 3550
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 11 2011,23:24   

Quote (sparc @ Sep. 11 2011,21:59)
If Joseph would only explore the sites he links to he would know that nature EDUCATION's Scitable does not support his views at all.

But that's true of everything posted on UD unless it comes from a creationist website.

What you have to understand is the the authors hide their ID sympathies in Bible Code.

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”let’s not make a joke of ourselves.”

Pat Robertson

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3265
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 12 2011,07:33   

Quote (midwifetoad @ Sep. 11 2011,23:24)
Quote (sparc @ Sep. 11 2011,21:59)
If Joseph would only explore the sites he links to he would know that nature EDUCATION's Scitable does not support his views at all.

But that's true of everything posted on UD unless it comes from a creationist website.

What you have to understand is the the authors hide their ID sympathies in Bible Code.

No.  Those websites DO support Joe's views on ID.

They just don't realize it yet.

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Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 12 2011,08:03   



--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 3550
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 12 2011,10:56   

Recent research reveals that if I type a brand name into a post anywhere on the net, an ad for than brand will show up on UD the next time I visit, or soon thereafter.

Sony, iPod, Nikon, testing...

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”let’s not make a joke of ourselves.”

Pat Robertson

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3265
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 12 2011,11:13   

Quote (midwifetoad @ Sep. 12 2011,10:56)
Recent research reveals that if I type a brand name into a post anywhere on the net, an ad for than brand will show up on UD the next time I visit, or soon thereafter.

Sony, iPod, Nikon, testing...

That's everywhere now.  The same cookies that maintain your login also tracks your posting habits.

I've been researching mattresses and every website with ads now has mattress ads.

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
midwifetoad



Posts: 3550
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 12 2011,12:39   

Get rich quick:

Over at UD there's a $1000 prize (judges not named) for "anyone who is able to demonstrate that the design of a living thing by an intelligent agent necessarily requires a supernatural act."

No prize is being offered for anyone who can calculate the CSI of any living organism.

No prize is being offered for anyone who can cite an instance of design being implemented, other than by humans. No prize for what. No prize for when, No prize for how.

No prize is being offered for explaining where or how a finite (non-supernatural) designer stores the 10^500 bits of information regarding fitness landscapes and coding sequences that would be required to design without using some form of GA. (Assuming, of course, that fitness landscapes really are as rugged as claimed by ID advocates.)

Linky

--------------
”let’s not make a joke of ourselves.”

Pat Robertson

  
Alan Fox



Posts: 1365
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 12 2011,12:39   

Quote (OgreMkV @ Sep. 12 2011,06:13)
   
Quote (midwifetoad @ Sep. 12 2011,10:56)
Recent research reveals that if I type a brand name into a post anywhere on the net, an ad for than brand will show up on UD the next time I visit, or soon thereafter.

Sony, iPod, Nikon, testing...

That's everywhere now.  The same cookies that maintain your login also tracks your posting habits.

I've been researching mattresses and every website with ads now has mattress ads.

That doesn't explain why I keep getting an ad for a muslim bride, though, does it, as I've never researched this topic? Though the concept does have a certain novelty appeal!

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 3550
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 12 2011,13:04   

Quote
That doesn't explain why I keep getting an ad for a muslim bride


That would be the mind reading component, still in Beta.

--------------
”let’s not make a joke of ourselves.”

Pat Robertson

  
JohnW



Posts: 2202
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 12 2011,13:13   

Quote (OgreMkV @ Sep. 12 2011,09:13)
Quote (midwifetoad @ Sep. 12 2011,10:56)
Recent research reveals that if I type a brand name into a post anywhere on the net, an ad for than brand will show up on UD the next time I visit, or soon thereafter.

Sony, iPod, Nikon, testing...

That's everywhere now.  The same cookies that maintain your login also tracks your posting habits.

I've been researching mattresses and every website with ads now has mattress ads.

Gordon Gobshite must be seeing some interesting ads, after all those mis-spelled (ahem) searches.

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Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it.
- Robert Byers

  
Henry J



Posts: 4010
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 12 2011,13:36   

Quote (OgreMkV @ Sep. 12 2011,10:13)
Quote (midwifetoad @ Sep. 12 2011,10:56)
Recent research reveals that if I type a brand name into a post anywhere on the net, an ad for than brand will show up on UD the next time I visit, or soon thereafter.

Sony, iPod, Nikon, testing...

That's everywhere now.  The same cookies that maintain your login also tracks your posting habits.

I've been researching mattresses and every website with ads now has mattress ads.

For that kind of problem, the appropriate strategy is to sleep on it.

  
paragwinn



Posts: 376
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 12 2011,13:41   

Quote (Henry J @ Sep. 12 2011,11:36)
Quote (OgreMkV @ Sep. 12 2011,10:13)
Quote (midwifetoad @ Sep. 12 2011,10:56)
Recent research reveals that if I type a brand name into a post anywhere on the net, an ad for than brand will show up on UD the next time I visit, or soon thereafter.

Sony, iPod, Nikon, testing...

That's everywhere now.  The same cookies that maintain your login also tracks your posting habits.

I've been researching mattresses and every website with ads now has mattress ads.

For that kind of problem, the appropriate strategy is to sleep on it.

And then spring into action!

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All women build up a resistance [to male condescension]. Apparently, ID did not predict that. -Kristine 4-19-11
F/Ns to F/Ns to F/Ns etc. The whole thing is F/N ridiculous -Seversky on KF footnote fetish 8-20-11
The geological maps that realist use to make money are all surface maps. -forastero

  
sparc



Posts: 1675
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 12 2011,13:50   

Quote (midwifetoad @ Sep. 12 2011,12:39)
Get rich quick:

Over at UD there's a $1000 prize (judges not named) for "anyone who is able to demonstrate that the design of a living thing by an intelligent agent necessarily requires a supernatural act."

No prize is being offered for anyone who can calculate the CSI of any living organism.

No prize is being offered for anyone who can cite an instance of design being implemented, other than by humans. No prize for what. No prize for when, No prize for how.

No prize is being offered for explaining where or how a finite (non-supernatural) designer stores the 10^500 bits of information regarding fitness landscapes and coding sequences that would be required to design without using some form of GA. (Assuming, of course, that fitness landscapes really are as rugged as claimed by ID advocates.)

Linky

POTW!

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"[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God."

- William Dembski -

   
midwifetoad



Posts: 3550
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 12 2011,14:06   

I'm interested in how gil and ba77 will approach this, since they assume the designer is god. They obviously have no problem with infinite resources.

I once argued with gpuccio that design is impossible without evolution, because no finite resource can predict protein folding in less time than folding itself.

He asserted there had to be some structure to folding that would provide a shortcut.

In the absence of evidence I doubt there will be a look up table for functional sequences that is smaller than the number of particles in the universe

That, of course, ignores the minor matter of regulation, and the ecological problems encountered and requiring adaptation.

--------------
”let’s not make a joke of ourselves.”

Pat Robertson

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3324
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 12 2011,14:22   

Quote (midwifetoad @ Sep. 12 2011,14:06)
I'm interested in how gil and ba77 will approach this, since they assume the designer is god. They obviously have no problem with infinite resources.
.

I'd be more interested in StephenB's attempt. Isn't the main part of his schtick that methodological naturalism, by limiting itself to natural explanations, is attempting to discriminate against ID?  By his reasoning, supernatural causation is *REQUIRED* in design theory.

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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 3550
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 12 2011,14:26   

Quote (carlsonjok @ Sep. 12 2011,14:22)
Quote (midwifetoad @ Sep. 12 2011,14:06)
I'm interested in how gil and ba77 will approach this, since they assume the designer is god. They obviously have no problem with infinite resources.
.

I'd be more interested in StephenB's attempt. Isn't the main part of his schtick that methodological naturalism, by limiting itself to natural explanations, is attempting to discriminate against ID?  By his reasoning, supernatural causation is *REQUIRED* in design theory.

The big tent does not cover any foolishly consistent hobgoblins.

--------------
”let’s not make a joke of ourselves.”

Pat Robertson

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 3550
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 12 2011,15:02   

DrBot opines:
 
Quote
As a general comment though, this looks like a challenge to ID more than it is to evolutionary scientists. I doubt any evo biologists would have an issue with the idea of an intelligent agent being able to design a living thing. Perhaps a more pertinent and direct challenge would be to show that supernatural intervention is not required to create life – when no material intelligent agent already exists – otherwise it is just inviting infinite regress (is a supernatural event required to produce the non supernatural intelligence that designed the life or do we invoke another material designer as the designer of the designer)


This requires a bit of head spinning. What kind of non-supernatural entity designs the first life?

If none is required, how is this different from naturalism? If it is required, the contest is won.

ETA:

The loudspeaker in the ceiling just deleted most of DrBot's post, specifically the part I quoted above.

Linky

ETA moar:

DrBot's entire post, before being censored by Barry:

Quote
Barry, thanks for the reply, I think some things still need clarification. For a start, I asked about non material minds and in reply you said:
Quote

Therefore, I am going to make a bold assumption for the sake of argument. Let us assume for the sake of argument that intelligent agents do NOT have free will, i.e., that the tertium quid does not exist. Let us assume instead, for the sake of argument, that the cause of all activity of all intelligent agents can be reduced to physical causes.

You responded with a statement about free will where you assume that it cannot exist in systems which operate according to the laws of physics. I don't have a problem with the idea that a material mind has free will, or conversely I can see that a non-material mind could equally lack free will. Free will in this context is not related to the issue of how 'mind' is defined.

Would the simplest thing be to state, as a premise for the competition, that a mind, intentionality and consciousness can all be produced by matter?

As a general comment though, this looks like a challenge to ID more than it is to evolutionary scientists. I doubt any evo biologists would have an issue with the idea of an intelligent agent being able to design a living thing. Perhaps a more pertinent and direct challenge would be to show that supernatural intervention is not required to create life - when no material intelligent agent already exists - otherwise it is just inviting infinite regress (is a supernatural event required to produce the non supernatural intelligence that designed the life or do we invoke another material designer as the designer of the designer)

This is the root question isn't it - how was life created, not how or in what way does it evolve once it exists.

I won't take up the challenge because I don't think that a supernatural act is required to produce life, most scientists I know would probably agree, but I look forward to seeing some of the ID supporters taking it up, and thanks for issuing the challenge (I mean that sincerely)


--------------
”let’s not make a joke of ourselves.”

Pat Robertson

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3324
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 12 2011,15:28   

Quote (midwifetoad @ Sep. 12 2011,15:02)
DrBot opines:
 
Quote
As a general comment though, this looks like a challenge to ID more than it is to evolutionary scientists. I doubt any evo biologists would have an issue with the idea of an intelligent agent being able to design a living thing. Perhaps a more pertinent and direct challenge would be to show that supernatural intervention is not required to create life – when no material intelligent agent already exists – otherwise it is just inviting infinite regress (is a supernatural event required to produce the non supernatural intelligence that designed the life or do we invoke another material designer as the designer of the designer)


This requires a bit of head spinning. What kind of non-supernatural entity designs the first life?

If none is required, how is this different from naturalism? If it is required, the contest is won.

ETA:

The loudspeaker in the ceiling just deleted most of DrBot's post, specifically the part I quoted above.

Linky

Hardly surprising.  Barry seems to construct elaborate rhetorical traps in his mind and can't seem to handle it when his presumed opponent deviates from the script Barry so helpfully wrote for him/her.

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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 3550
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 12 2011,15:46   

It does seem natural that Barry would be a bit twitchy about the question of whether consciousness exists. that would seem to hit too close to home.

--------------
”let’s not make a joke of ourselves.”

Pat Robertson

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 3550
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 12 2011,17:31   

No surprisingly, KF declares victory.

In doing so he explains why the lawyer Barry deleted DrBot's post.

The deleted post pointed out the infinite regress of designers, which cannot be resolved without invoking a supernatural first designer.

Either that or conceding that a designer is not necessary.

So not only is Barry Arrington a dishonest scum for deleting an embarrassing post, but he lied about his reason.

--------------
”let’s not make a joke of ourselves.”

Pat Robertson

  
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4230
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 12 2011,19:51   

Quote (midwifetoad @ Sep. 12 2011,13:39)
Get rich quick:

Over at UD there's a $1000 prize (judges not named) for "anyone who is able to demonstrate that the design of a living thing by an intelligent agent necessarily requires a supernatural act."

No prize is being offered for anyone who can calculate the CSI of any living organism.

No prize is being offered for anyone who can cite an instance of design being implemented, other than by humans. No prize for what. No prize for when, No prize for how.

No prize is being offered for explaining where or how a finite (non-supernatural) designer stores the 10^500 bits of information regarding fitness landscapes and coding sequences that would be required to design without using some form of GA. (Assuming, of course, that fitness landscapes really are as rugged as claimed by ID advocates.)

Linky

Is "Cosmological ID" (e.g. arguments vis fine tuning, cosmological origins, and the necessity of an uncreated creator, etc.) still considered ID at UD?

If so, I'd be interested in Barry's description of a "natural" designer capable of, say, intelligently fine tuning cosmological constants to attain a desired universe.

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 3550
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 12 2011,20:11   

KF gave the game away. Barry considers humans to be non supernatural designers capable of designing life from scratch. KF just now said that Venter's work is "proof of concept."

Someone should require him to make that explicit, because lots of UDers doubt that.

If so, the solution to origin of life is solved, in concept. And  the supernaturalists at UD can eat Barry's dirt.

Of course this involves an infinite regress, but if you mention that, Barry will delete your post.

Someone should sue UD for the prize money and force them to declare under oath that the designer isn't god.

--------------
”let’s not make a joke of ourselves.”

Pat Robertson

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 3550
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 13 2011,08:39   

KF would never poison the well:

Quote
Spell this: S-A-U-L A-L-I-N-S-K-Y distortion and demonisation of design thought .


--------------
”let’s not make a joke of ourselves.”

Pat Robertson

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 3550
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 13 2011,08:43   

Quote
See those references to scriptures and to issues on interpretation thereof?

See the persistent unresponsiveness to correction?

Utterly revealing.

GEM of TKI



Good to know that KF will be jumping all over any future poster on UD that dares to mention religion or atheism.

--------------
”let’s not make a joke of ourselves.”

Pat Robertson

  
sparc



Posts: 1675
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 13 2011,11:43   

As if Jonathan M's post isn't ludicrous enough Granville Sewell who published a more or less identical paper at least three times thinks he has to add the following:
Quote
Jonathan,

Good post. I like the comments “to have written 800 papers is regarded as something to boast about rather than being shameful” and “with far fewer papers being published, reviewers, grant committees and promotion committees might be able to read the papers, not just count them.”


--------------
"[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God."

- William Dembski -

   
midwifetoad



Posts: 3550
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 13 2011,12:05   

Quote (sparc @ Sep. 13 2011,11:43)
As if Jonathan M's post isn't ludicrous enough Granville Sewell who published a more or less identical paper at least three times thinks he has to add the following:  
Quote
Jonathan,

Good post. I like the comments “to have written 800 papers is regarded as something to boast about rather than being shameful” and “with far fewer papers being published, reviewers, grant committees and promotion committees might be able to read the papers, not just count them.”

Quote
led to a situation where any paper, however bad, can now be printed in a journal that claims to be peer-reviewed.


He is referring to bio-complexity, isn't he?

--------------
”let’s not make a joke of ourselves.”

Pat Robertson

  
Tracy P. Hamilton



Posts: 1234
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 13 2011,14:00   

Stupid UD News Headline, issue 138,476:
Quote
Philosophers deride neuroscience attempts to attack free will


Of course, no derision to be seen.  Only D'Oh!-leary thinks that way.

--------------
"Following what I just wrote about fitness, you’re taking refuge in what we see in the world."  PaV

"The simple equation F = MA leads to the concept of four-dimensional space." GilDodgen

"We have no brain, I don't, for thinking." Robert Byers

  
Tracy P. Hamilton



Posts: 1234
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 13 2011,14:32   

DeNews asks a question:  
Quote
Memo to CNN: After the Ardi and Ida pfffft’s, what religion do we join, so we can not believe in your latest babe, Sediba?


Nothing wrong with Ardi as a fossil, only certain IDiots who don't realize how many design events are required for homonins - they just engage in denial.  Ida is an example of a sparse record, of course there is going to be different ideas on where it is in the tree of life.  

All D'Oh-leary can do is:

Paper 1 says X about evolution, paper 2 says Y, so paper X is WRONG, therefore evolution is wrong, therefore DEZIGN!!!!11!

What you should do is get your science news from journal articles.  Of course if you tried...

 
Quote

Wanda: [after Otto breaks in on Wanda and Archie in Archie's flat and hangs him out the window] I was dealing with something delicate, Otto. I'm setting up a guy who's incredibly important to us, who's going to tell me where the loot is and if they're going to come and arrest you. And you come loping in like Rambo without a jockstrap and you dangle him out a fifth-floor window. Now, was that smart? Was it shrewd? Was it good tactics? Or was it stupid?

Otto West: Don't call me stupid.

Wanda: Oh, right! To call you stupid would be an insult to stupid people! I've known sheep that could outwit you. I've worn dresses with higher IQs. But you think you're an intellectual, don't you, ape?

Otto West: Apes don't read philosophy.

Wanda: Yes they do, Otto. They just don't understand it. Now let me correct you on a couple of things, OK? Aristotle was not Belgian. The central message of Buddhism is not "Every man for himself." And the London Underground is not a political movement. Those are all mistakes, Otto. I looked them up.


Remember Densy's blunder in saying that a circular phylogenetic tree diagram was not a tree?

--------------
"Following what I just wrote about fitness, you’re taking refuge in what we see in the world."  PaV

"The simple equation F = MA leads to the concept of four-dimensional space." GilDodgen

"We have no brain, I don't, for thinking." Robert Byers

  
Tracy P. Hamilton



Posts: 1234
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 13 2011,14:59   

DeNews certainly can't be accused of a "Interested in the Truth"-er:

Quote
Ties with anti-Semitic Troother show that the Darwin lobby is failing


Of course, no evidence the guy is antisemitic.  She could go further and point out that the guy is really big on conspiracies, not just 9-11.

--------------
"Following what I just wrote about fitness, you’re taking refuge in what we see in the world."  PaV

"The simple equation F = MA leads to the concept of four-dimensional space." GilDodgen

"We have no brain, I don't, for thinking." Robert Byers

  
Robin



Posts: 1430
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 13 2011,15:13   

D'oh-neese is an evolved species of ichneumon - she paralyzes her victims with inane claims and plants embroys of asinine ideas that will consume the victim's mind.

Really. Just stop reading her before you become nothing but a barely conscious shell as her vile spawn eats your mind from the inside out.

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we IDists rule in design for the flagellum and cilium largely because they do look designed.  Bilbo

The only reason you reject Thor is because, like a cushion, you bear the imprint of the biggest arse that sat on you. Louis

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 3550
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 13 2011,15:44   

Quote
Of course, no evidence the guy is antisemitic.


He has some rather strong associations in the conspiracy world with people who blame Israel for 9/11.

Just looking briefly at the truther sewer, he might have disassociated himself from that. Or not. It's difficult to tell who's in and who's out. What a mess.

I have a personal reason for thinking the Trade Center theorists are full of shit. They talk about the fire not being hot enough.

I live a few blocks from a church that burned a few years ago. It had a frame made of steel I-beams which bent like cooked spaghetti in the fire. There was no additional fuel. It was just a routine fire.



--------------
”let’s not make a joke of ourselves.”

Pat Robertson

  
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