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  Topic: Biological Information: New Perspectives, The Springer Book Flap< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
DiEb



Posts: 238
Joined: May 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 07 2012,16:16   

Quote (midwifetoad @ Mar. 06 2012,09:09)
They woulda got away with it if they hadn't bragged before publication. Premature jubilation.

I beg to differ: they have kept exceptionally quite about the whole thing, only the (automatically generated?) announcement by Springer derailed their plan.

Look how their modus operandi has changed over the last years: Marks's and Dembski's  paper "Conservation of Information in Search - Measuring the Cost of Success" was available as a preprint on Marks's homepage, it was announced a couple of times at UncommonDescent, and after years of struggle it appeared in some unrelated journal.

This disadvantage is obvious: public criticism. And boy, they didn't like it.

Nowadays, they try to sneak in their articles in a kind of peer-reviewed journal first. Then they will ignore any critique which isn't itself in form of a peer-reviewed paper. And no one bothers to do so, their math is generally debunked some levels below, in  blogs, wikis, etc.

What does this mean if you find an error in their publications? They don't bother! And if you try to correct them via email, you get an answer (if any!)  like  
Quote
I have a policy not to engage in correspondence with anyone publically critical of me or my work.

   
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4526
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 07 2012,21:57   

The DI held a closed conference in SoCal in 1996 (collection of essays published as "Mere Creation"). They followed that up with a conference in Austin, Texas early in 1997 where they issued a public call for papers and solicited participation of people they believed would hold views counter to their own. The CFP failed to mention "intelligent design". The essays to that conference were posted online, but never collected and formally published.

IIRC, it was in 2000 that the "Polanyi Center" at Baylor hosted the "Nature of Nature" conference that invited in a bunch of big name philosophers. They didn't bother to mention their grinding ax then, either, and still hold a grudge against Barbara Forrest, who wrote a letter to various participants letting them know what they were getting themselves into. A volume finally got published with essays from that conference, but not solely material presented at the conference (again, IIRC).

In 2002, I was denied permission to attend a closed conference at Biola (the "RAPID" conference).

The IDC advocates seem to shift between including and excluding critics. I don't know that we can identify any trend in this from this latest scam.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
DiEb



Posts: 238
Joined: May 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 08 2012,02:14   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Mar. 07 2012,21:57)
[...]The IDC advocates seem to shift between including and excluding critics. I don't know that we can identify any trend in this from this latest scam.

I see, I inferred a trend because my window of observation was to small. But in reality they are switching between two strategies which both don't work...

   
carlsonjok



Posts: 3324
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 08 2012,05:32   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Mar. 07 2012,21:57)
The IDC advocates seem to shift between including and excluding critics. I don't know that we can identify any trend in this from this latest scam.

The trend that is evident is the renting of publicly available meeting space at various respected science organizations in order to give their movement a veneer of respectability by basking in the reflected glow of that organization's hard earned reputation.

They did it with their Academic Freedom Day at Sam Noble Museum of Natural History at the University of Oklahoma.  They tried to do it with their attempt to show "Darwin's Dilemma" at the California Science Center.  And now they did so with Cornell.

Edited by carlsonjok on Mar. 08 2012,05:32

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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
k.e..



Posts: 3078
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 08 2012,05:33   

Quote (Richardthughes @ Mar. 08 2012,00:13)
Quote (Bob O'H @ Mar. 07 2012,12:40)
Should have known someone would get there first - I was sent to the cellar to get the incubator.

I had lots of links here and to PT, but they were removed by The Guardian.

EXPELLED! EVOMAT THOUGHT POLIC... wait, what?

They're all worried Julian is just the begining.

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"I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his clown DaveTard suit" dogdidit
"Abbie Smith (ERV) who's got to be the most obnoxious arrogant snot I've ever seen except for when I look in a mirror" DAVE TARD
"ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus

  
k.e..



Posts: 3078
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 08 2012,05:44   

Quote (carlsonjok @ Mar. 08 2012,13:32)
Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Mar. 07 2012,21:57)
The IDC advocates seem to shift between including and excluding critics. I don't know that we can identify any trend in this from this latest scam.

The trend that is evident is the renting of publicly available meeting space at various respected science organizations in order to give their movement a veneer of respectability by basking in the reflected glow of that organization's hard earned reputation.

They did it with their Academic Freedom Day at Sam Noble Museum of Natural History at the University of Oklahoma.  They tried to do it with their attempt to show "Darwin's Dilemma" at the California Science Center.  And now they did so with Cornell.

Well .....really now that just leaves "Scientific American" ....right?

In between the sit on lawn mower and Viagra ads.

It's a pity BYTE busted years ago they could have had a field day.

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"I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his clown DaveTard suit" dogdidit
"Abbie Smith (ERV) who's got to be the most obnoxious arrogant snot I've ever seen except for when I look in a mirror" DAVE TARD
"ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4526
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 08 2012,07:29   

Quote (carlsonjok @ Mar. 08 2012,05:32)
 
Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Mar. 07 2012,21:57)
The IDC advocates seem to shift between including and excluding critics. I don't know that we can identify any trend in this from this latest scam.

The trend that is evident is the renting of publicly available meeting space at various respected science organizations in order to give their movement a veneer of respectability by basking in the reflected glow of that organization's hard earned reputation.

They did it with their Academic Freedom Day at Sam Noble Museum of Natural History at the University of Oklahoma.  They tried to do it with their attempt to show "Darwin's Dilemma" at the California Science Center.  And now they did so with Cornell.

I don't think that one can support a trend in dishonesty, either. I did mention that their 1997 and 2001 conferences-with-critics did not bother to disclose to the critics just what they were getting into.

And you missed the Smithsonian rental flap from 2005.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
sparc



Posts: 1736
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 08 2012,11:57   

At least there is a trend to decracy because there was at least a second meeting on which only very little information has been disclosed. What we know is from the videos of Berlinski's daughter Cleire. According to Jeff Shellit's summary at least the following people joined the    
Quote
by-invitation only conference in Italy entitled "Great Expectations". It's hard to find anything about this conference online because, you see, it was "secret". But it's not hard to figure out the agenda. After all, the people present seem to have been
- Paul Nelson [...]
- Robert Marks [...]
- David Berlinski [...]
- Moshe Averick [...]
- Stephen Meyer [...]
- Richard von Sternberg [...]
- Michael Denton [...]
- perhaps Jonathan Wells [...]

Since the meeting took place in Italy I was curious if Rivista di Biologica that  ID-proponents used befor to publish their drivel might be used to publish conference proceedings. However, from its former home page I've learned that    
Quote
With volume 2010 the publication of the journal by Tilgher is over. The journal will be published by Publisher Fabrizio Serra (www.libraweb.net).
Since <a href="www.libraweb.net" target="_blank">libraweb</a> doesn't list the journal and it's already 2011 it appears likely that Rivista silently passed away.

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"[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God."

- William Dembski -

   
Jkrebs



Posts: 328
Joined: Sep. 2004

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 08 2012,12:10   

And they tried to use the "Kansas Science Standards Hearings" as a way to get equal time with mainstream science in a high profile venue.  Real scientists refused to play the game, and so the results (the transcripts were published by the state of Kansas) mainly served to highlight the positions (mostly YEC, and/or deniers of common descent) of the ID advocates who came.

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 3607
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 08 2012,12:35   

There's a trend. It just happens to be flat.

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”let’s not make a joke of ourselves.”

Pat Robertson

  
sparc



Posts: 1736
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 08 2012,13:06   

From Todd's blog:
Quote
Meanwhile, over at Panda's Thumb, Nick Matzke is in an uproar over the publication of a book called Biological Information: New Perspectives (BI:NP). In his usual blunt style, Matzke is upset because "Springer gets suckered by creationist pseudoscience." For those of you who don't know, Springer is a well-known academic publisher, the kind that puts out books that cost hundreds of dollars that almost no one will ever read. (May I add, if you think he's upset now, wait till he gets a list of the contributing authors. He might go into an apoplectic seizure.) According to Matzke,
Quote
The major publishers have enough problems at the moment ... it seems like the last thing they should be doing is frittering away their credibility even further by uncritically publishing creationist work and giving it a veneer of respectability. The mega-publishers are expensive, are making money off of largely government-funded work provided to them for free, and then the public doesn’t even have access to it. The only thing they have going for them is quality control and credibility – if they give that away to cranks, there is no reason at all to support them.


I'm not interested in discussing the merit of the work published in BI:NP, but I am struck by the interesting parallel between Matzke's and Redfield's complaints. From the information I have, the content of BI:NP has largely to do with natural selection, population genetics, and evolutionary biology. Yet it's being published in an engineering publication called "Intelligent Systems Reference Library." Other titles in the series cover subjects like how to solve math problems with software, robotics for assisting wheelchair navigation, and artificial neural networks. So it's a computer engineering series, not really something that would normally publish on pop genetics and evolutionary biology. I suppose technically, "biological information" falls within the extended periphery of the "Intelligent Systems Reference Library," but the publication of BI:NP leaves me a bit unsettled.

On the one hand, I understand that the authors of this volume probably believe that they cannot get their work published in conventional biology journals, because of their controversial, anti-evolution conclusions. I completely sympathize. I would love to be able to have some of my creationist ideas intelligently read and critiqued by knowledgeable individuals, rather than dismissively scoffed at by "howler monkeys" (you gotta be a real oldtimer to remember that reference). On the other hand, I'm a firm believer in the value of peer review and scientific publication. If a work is rejected, there's probably a reason for the rejection that we should take seriously. Scientific publication isn't just some political game, where friends get published and enemies get punished. It's not an inalienable right either. If we don't respect the process of peer review and publication, then what's the difference between a scientific publication and a propaganda piece? The price tag?

So I'm feeling unsettled, and I'm prepared for all sorts of rants to be directed my way. My email's listed below. Have at it.


Edited by sparc on Mar. 08 2012,13:09

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"[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God."

- William Dembski -

   
sparc



Posts: 1736
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 08 2012,22:43   

Does anybody know Jonathan D.H. Smith from Iowa State University? According to his web pages (link) he contributed to BI:NP
Quote
Hierarchical information theory and the modeling of biological systems, pp. 419-512 in "Biological Information: New Perspectives" (eds. R.J. Marks II et al.), Springer Intelligent Systems Reference Library, Berlin, 2012.

He even provides a link to a copy of the article.

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"[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God."

- William Dembski -

   
The whole truth



Posts: 1177
Joined: Jan. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 08 2012,23:31   

Quote (Bob O'H @ Mar. 07 2012,10:40)
Should have known someone would get there first - I was sent to the cellar to get the incubator.

I had lots of links here and to PT, but they were removed by The Guardian.

Bob, thank you for writing that article and helping to get the word out about the shenanigans of the IDiots. The more people learn of their sneaky games, the better.

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Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. - Jesus in Matthew 10:34

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. -Jesus in Luke 19:27

   
Dr.GH



Posts: 1969
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 09 2012,11:53   

Quote (sparc @ Mar. 08 2012,20:43)
Does anybody know Jonathan D.H. Smith from Iowa State University? According to his web pages (link) he contributed to BI:NP
 
Quote
Hierarchical information theory and the modeling of biological systems, pp. 419-512 in "Biological Information: New Perspectives" (eds. R.J. Marks II et al.), Springer Intelligent Systems Reference Library, Berlin, 2012.

He even provides a link to a copy of the article.

I just scanned it, and it looked OK.

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"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
Tracy P. Hamilton



Posts: 1239
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 09 2012,12:10   

Quote (Dr.GH @ Mar. 09 2012,11:53)
Quote (sparc @ Mar. 08 2012,20:43)
Does anybody know Jonathan D.H. Smith from Iowa State University? According to his web pages (link) he contributed to BI:NP
 
Quote
Hierarchical information theory and the modeling of biological systems, pp. 419-512 in "Biological Information: New Perspectives" (eds. R.J. Marks II et al.), Springer Intelligent Systems Reference Library, Berlin, 2012.

He even provides a link to a copy of the article.

I just scanned it, and it looked OK.

Dr. GH, without your comment I would not have looked, assuming it was the usual IDiocy.

I wonder what he thought of the YEC papers at the "conference".

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"Following what I just wrote about fitness, you’re taking refuge in what we see in the world."  PaV

"The simple equation F = MA leads to the concept of four-dimensional space." GilDodgen

"We have no brain, I don't, for thinking." Robert Byers

  
sparc



Posts: 1736
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 10 2012,00:00   

Another BI:NP talk was from J Scott Turner, Professor at the State University of New York, Syracuse, College of Environmental Sciences and Forestry, Department of Environmental and Forest Biology:
 
Quote
A Multiplicity of Memory. Toward a Coherent Theory of Adaptation.
Biological Information—New Perspectives. Cornell University. June 2011
According to his CV it was an invited presentation.

For a start here's what Jeffrey Shallit had to say about Turner back in 2007.

(cross posted at PT)

ETA: based on another source PT already listed him as a contributor to BI:NP

Edited by sparc on Mar. 10 2012,00:34

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"[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God."

- William Dembski -

   
sparc



Posts: 1736
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 10 2012,00:54   

Can it be just coincidence that Springer's newest German title is:  
Quote
Lügner - Die Wahrheit über das Lügen
(Liars - The truth about lying)


--------------
"[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God."

- William Dembski -

   
Dr.GH



Posts: 1969
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 10 2012,05:02   

Quote (Tracy P. Hamilton @ Mar. 09 2012,10:10)
I just scanned it, and it looked OK.[/quote]
Dr. GH, without your comment I would not have looked, assuming it was the usual IDiocy.

I wonder what he thought of the YEC papers at the "conference".

I think that there could have been a handful of actually OK papers. These could have been the bulk of the "review" material.

--------------
"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
sparc



Posts: 1736
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 13 2012,23:49   

Here's the story in French.

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"[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God."

- William Dembski -

   
sparc



Posts: 1736
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 15 2012,13:21   

Ian Iuby’s take on the issue
(posted at PT before)

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"[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God."

- William Dembski -

   
sparc



Posts: 1736
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 15 2012,13:37   

The link resulting from a google search for "biological information: new perspectives" site:amazon.de results in an empty page ON amazon's German pages. Before it looked like this. Searching directly on Amazon.de doesn't give any hit for the book either. However, the book is still listed at Amazon.com.

(cross posted at PT)

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"[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God."

- William Dembski -

   
Kattarina98



Posts: 1255
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 16 2012,03:38   

Quote (sparc @ Mar. 15 2012,13:37)
However, the book is still listed at Amazon.com.

(cross posted at PT)

Quote
Available for Pre-order. This item will be released on March 31, 2012

Can this be true? Springer couldn't be planning to make some bucks selling the book to the US creationists while bashfully hiding the mess from their German customers?

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Barry Arrington is a bitch.

  
Bob O'H



Posts: 1996
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 16 2012,07:41   

It's more likely that Amazon's (or Springers') system has got screwed up because the book has been delayed.

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It is fun to dip into the various threads to watch cluelessness at work in the hands of the confident exponent. - Soapy Sam (so say we all)

   
fnxtr



Posts: 2163
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 17 2012,01:14   

Quote (sparc @ Mar. 09 2012,22:54)
Can it be just coincidence that Springer's newest German title is:  
Quote
Lügner - Die Wahrheit über das Lügen
(Liars - The truth about lying)

Wouldn't be a translation of Al Franken's book, would it?

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"But it's disturbing to think someone actually thinks creationism -- having put it's hand on the hot stove every day for the last 400 years -- will get a different result tomorrow." -- midwifetoad

  
sparc



Posts: 1736
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 18 2012,01:40   

Mariano Grinbank describing himself as      
Quote
an Argentinean-American Jewish Christian
who      
Quote
attended private Jewish school and had Bar Mitzvah in Israel
   
Quote
is involved in Judeo-Christian apologetics as a researcher, essayist and lecturer
and is a self-proclaimed      
Quote
Worldview and Science Examiner
examines the "Biological Information: New Perspectives" story at examiner.com- From his self-description and this picture

it was already obvious that he would blow ID's horn -
Nothing new just the usual ID spin.

I don't understand his judo-christian apologetics thing, though. Is he developing his own new bizarre private religion?  His disturbing webpage is http://www.truefreethinker.com/....ker....ker.com where we learn that he lectured for the New Mexico devision of the Intelligent Designe network and that before he turned hard core religious he was  
Quote
was also involved in the New Age Movement and was a practitioner of Reiki, Tai Chi Chuan, Chi Kung and the I'Ching.
.

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"[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God."

- William Dembski -

   
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 18 2012,08:47   

that is motherfucking hilarious

i bet we know this genius by some other name

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
sparc



Posts: 1736
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 27 2012,11:04   

just to push this thread further up again:
We are approaching the scheduled publication date for "BI:NP" (March 31, 2012)
What do you think will happen?

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"[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God."

- William Dembski -

   
Kattarina98



Posts: 1255
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 27 2012,11:46   

Quote (sparc @ Mar. 27 2012,11:04)
What do you think will happen?



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Barry Arrington is a bitch.

  
Henry J



Posts: 4115
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 27 2012,12:25   

Quote
What do you think will happen?

I don't have that information!

  
sparc



Posts: 1736
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 01 2012,00:25   

April 1st just started in the US and at Amazon the book is still in pre-order status. Another site lists it as just published. However, the link there will redirect you to the above mentioned Amazon pages.

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"[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God."

- William Dembski -

   
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