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  Topic: Thoughts on Hell, for Kevin Miller's new Film, Hellbound< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
Richardthughes



Posts: 10130
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 23 2011,12:47   

Kevin, if you'd like to frame the discussion, feel free.

I'm not sure if you need disclosure of people's faiths as part of the posts?

Bible seach for "hell"

http://www.biblegateway.com/quickse....ion=NIV

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 23 2011,13:25   


Iain's latest is all about digital hell. A cracking read.

Read his book!

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gaugerís work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3305
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 23 2011,13:40   

Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Mar. 23 2011,13:25)

Iain's latest is all about digital hell. A cracking read.

Read his book!

Surface Detail definitely a much more powerful idea of a hell than the rather lame Judeo-Christian version.  

On the other hand, the ending left me going WTF?

But back to hell... ("Back into Hell" anyone?)

What's the point?  The New Testament lays down the general principles of good government, but contains no code of laws for the punishment of offenders. Punishment proceeds on the principle that there is an eternal distinction between right and wrong, and that this distinction must be maintained for its own sake. It is not primarily intended for the reformation of criminals, nor for the purpose of deterring others from sin. These results may be gained, but crime in itself demands punishment.

If there is an enternal distinction between right and wrong, then what is right and what is wrong?  

If we go by the Bible definition, then beating your slaves almost to death is perfectly OK.  Yet, no modern, moral person believes it is OK to beat ones slaves (or indeed own slaves).

So are we more moral than the Bible?  How can the Bible claim an eternal morality (distinction between right and wrong) if that morality changes based on the culture and the time?

Can anyone meet the requirements of both the Bible and modern society?  What about all the other religions?  What about purgatory (invented so that Christians could still force people to believe in God to go to heaven, but didn't have to send babies to hell)?

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Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

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Richardthughes



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Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 23 2011,13:46   

I also liked Surface detail!

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Kristine



Posts: 3037
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 23 2011,14:43   

Hell is in the earth, no? That reveals a particular attitude toward the earth, does it not?

Doesn't it also allude to a sense of shame at our origins, our bodies, our sexuality? And thus global climate change, evolution, and death?

Vine Deloria, Jr., himself not an atheist, said that of all the religions, the Christian Heaven seemed to be the most pleasant, but the majority of its believers also seemed to have the greatest fear of death, largely because of this fear of hell.

It has not made people more moral, this fear, but it has given people a new weapon with which to demonize their enemies. Say what you want about Richard Dawkins or PZ or me, but none of us believes that there is a hell waiting for anyone that we do not like.

--------------
Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 3560
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 23 2011,15:05   

Hell is simply a tool invented by those in power to keep their subjects in line.

--------------
Ēletís not make a joke of ourselves.Ē

Pat Robertson

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3305
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 23 2011,15:10   

Quote (Kristine @ Mar. 23 2011,14:43)
Hell is in the earth, no? That reveals a particular attitude toward the earth, does it not?

Doesn't it also allude to a sense of shame at our origins, our bodies, our sexuality? And thus global climate change, evolution, and death?

Vine Deloria, Jr., himself not an atheist, said that of all the religions, the Christian Heaven seemed to be the most pleasant, but the majority of its believers also seemed to have the greatest fear of death, largely because of this fear of hell.

It has not made people more moral, this fear, but it has given people a new weapon with which to demonize their enemies. Say what you want about Richard Dawkins or PZ or me, but none of us believes that there is a hell waiting for anyone that we do not like.

The Christian heaven seems like hell to me.  Singing and praising god forever... yech.  It'd definitely be hell for those standing next to me in the chorus line.*




*I can barely carry a tune on my iPod.

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

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Robin



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(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 23 2011,15:50   

Of all the versions of hell out there that I've read about, the most baffling one to me is Christianity's. It has no point.

Think about the basics of the Christian version of hell for a moment:

1) Any "sin" (this term is a little vague in and of itself depending on the sect you listen to, but in general it means any act against God's proscribed rules) gets you into to hell regardless of the relative effect here on Earth. Kill 100 billion people and destroy 3/4 of the Earth or simply lust after your neighbor's wife and your in.

2) Once in, the "punishment" (again, what this is varies between sects, but in principle it involves fire and lots of it) and your soul's torment from it is eternal. Like 1 above, it doesn't matter what "sin" you committed, all receive the same treatment and it's forever.

3) The only redemption is submission to the God demands/rules (and repentance for your "sinful" behavior) before one ever gets there; there's no option to repent once there.

4) There's no rehabilitation in hell. See 2 and 3 above.

5) Once there, your torture is available to all the saints and blessed for their viewing pleasure (yep, there's schadenfreude in heaven apparently - see Isaiah 14 and 66 for instance. Revelations has some take on this as well).

Chew on that for a minute or so.

So what's the point? In this concept, you can live a good, honest life - help grandmas at swim class, give volunteer at soup kitchens, donate to cancer research, and help your neighbors and community - and burn for eternity simply because you look upon a girl at 15 and thought she was sexy. OTOH, you can be Hitler or Stalin and "find God" on your deathbed and repent your sins, and spend the rest of eternity eating bon-bons and sipping on Courvoisier  with Jesus while waving and whistling at the damned.

Yeeeaah...it just doesn't make any sense to me.

--------------
we IDists rule in design for the flagellum and cilium largely because they do look designed. †Bilbo

The only reason you reject Thor is because, like a cushion, you bear the imprint of the biggest arse that sat on you. Louis

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4362
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 23 2011,18:15   

Quote
Yeeeaah...it just doesn't make any sense to me.


Nor to anyone with a lick of sense.  So Kevin, your "movie" could be the shortest on record.  

And BTW, it's too damn bad taht you're afraid to interview Louis.   The potential acadamy award-winning scene where he eviscerates you and makes you cry will sadly, never get made.  

However, I do believe that Mr. DeMille is ready to get that close-up of you.  Fix your mascara!

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3305
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 23 2011,18:35   

Could we stop calling this clown 'Kevin'?  Please?

I further note he hasn't bothered to come here and answer any of these issues.

Here's another couple of questions...

All you have to go on for any definition of hell is what?  A book written by people who had never been there.

In fact, if you are one of the IDiots that think that God is lying to us (by creating the universe with a semblance of age), then how can we trust his 'revelations' about hell?  

Of course, you might have anecdotal 'evidence'.  In that case, let's find a human being who has never heard of Christianity, never been preached to by any modern religion, or had any other influence (no TV, movies, radio, books, etc).  Now, let's kill him (should be easy for religious types... we'll just tell them he's gay.)

Then we'll revive him and see what version of 'hell' or anything else he describes.

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

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Louis



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Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 23 2011,18:41   

J-Dog,

I'm not sure a scene where Kev's producer/money people scream "He wants how much? There's no way we're paying that total non-entity that sort of cash!" which swiftly cuts to me saying "Hell doesn't exist. It's an absurd, cruel fiction no matter how many people vaguely believe in it. Find me some evidence and I'll listen.....Didn't think so. Now off you fuck so I can do some real work." is Academy Award material. Sadly.

Mind you, turning up in the Borat style man thong would be comedy gold...

Louis

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Bye.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 23 2011,18:45   

Quote (OgreMkV @ Mar. 24 2011,00:35)
Could we stop calling this clown 'Kevin'? †Please?

[SNIP]

Fair enough. I vote for "Lying shitebag who greasily shills for the terminally bible blinded". The only problem is that it doesn't have a catchy acronym and fails to communicate his eminent punchability.*

Too harsh?

Louis

*Edited to add: It should be obvious I don't mean this literally. Don't know Kev, don't want to punch him. Hyperbole is fun though. Not a fan of liars though, I doubt Kevvo has the cojones to present the targets of his misrepresentations with his nonsense.

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Bye.

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4362
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 23 2011,20:01   

Quote (Louis @ Mar. 23 2011,18:45)
Quote (OgreMkV @ Mar. 24 2011,00:35)
Could we stop calling this clown 'Kevin'? †Please?

[SNIP]

Fair enough. I vote for "Lying shitebag who greasily shills for the terminally bible blinded". The only problem is that it doesn't have a catchy acronym and fails to communicate his eminent punchability.

Too harsh?

Louis

Quote
Too harsh?


No, not at all.

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
khan



Posts: 1482
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 23 2011,20:39   

Quote (Robin @ Mar. 23 2011,16:50)
Of all the versions of hell out there that I've read about, the most baffling one to me is Christianity's. It has no point.

Think about the basics of the Christian version of hell for a moment:

1) Any "sin" (this term is a little vague in and of itself depending on the sect you listen to, but in general it means any act against God's proscribed rules) gets you into to hell regardless of the relative effect here on Earth. Kill 100 billion people and destroy 3/4 of the Earth or simply lust after your neighbor's wife and your in.

2) Once in, the "punishment" (again, what this is varies between sects, but in principle it involves fire and lots of it) and your soul's torment from it is eternal. Like 1 above, it doesn't matter what "sin" you committed, all receive the same treatment and it's forever.

3) The only redemption is submission to the God demands/rules (and repentance for your "sinful" behavior) before one ever gets there; there's no option to repent once there.

4) There's no rehabilitation in hell. See 2 and 3 above.

5) Once there, your torture is available to all the saints and blessed for their viewing pleasure (yep, there's schadenfreude in heaven apparently - see Isaiah 14 and 66 for instance. Revelations has some take on this as well).

Chew on that for a minute or so.

So what's the point? In this concept, you can live a good, honest life - help grandmas at swim class, give volunteer at soup kitchens, donate to cancer research, and help your neighbors and community - and burn for eternity simply because you look upon a girl at 15 and thought she was sexy. OTOH, you can be Hitler or Stalin and "find God" on your deathbed and repent your sins, and spend the rest of eternity eating bon-bons and sipping on Courvoisier †with Jesus while waving and whistling at the damned.

Yeeeaah...it just doesn't make any sense to me.

If it made sense, it wouldn't be religion.

--------------
"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

  
Seversky



Posts: 415
Joined: June 2010

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 23 2011,21:04   

Kevin...


  
keiths



Posts: 2041
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 23 2011,21:31   

Hell would be spending eternity listening to Gil Dodgen.

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And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number.  -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3305
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 23 2011,21:44   

Quote (keiths @ Mar. 23 2011,21:31)
Hell would be spending eternity listening to Gil Dodgen.

There's a new thread... examples of hell.

How about watching BA77 elaborate at length while wearing a Lady Gaga outfit?

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

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ppb



Posts: 325
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 23 2011,22:28   

Maybe Kevin should interview Matt Groening. †I've always enjoyed his views on the subject.

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"[A scientific theory] describes Nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And it agrees fully with experiment. So I hope you can accept Nature as She is - absurd."
- Richard P. Feynman

  
kevinmillerxi



Posts: 92
Joined: Feb. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 24 2011,00:31   

Thanks for setting this up, Richard. Framing questions to come.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 24 2011,06:47   

Quote (kevinmillerxi @ Mar. 24 2011,06:31)
Thanks for setting this up, Richard. Framing questions to come.

The only question you need to focus on, my lad, is "Bearing false witness: will it send me to the very hell I so fervently love to claim others are condemned to?".

Seriously, why the hell* do you expect to make a propaganda movie which in which you selectively and dishonestly (admittedly so it appears) edit the comments of others to fit into a prearranged story derived from your own prejudices, slander generations of scientists, misrepresent the work and lives of individuals and multitudes, and then not expect to come in for criticism varying from the excoriating to the abusive? Why do you expect anyone aware of your shenanigans, here or elsewhere, to trust you at your (already thoroughly discredited) word?

Dr Louis' advice: stop focussing on the made up sins of others, old boy, start focussing on your own very real ones. Or so you think by piously instigating little cinematic pogroms of dishonesty your fictional deity will somehow love you? Is any sin forgiveable as long as you do it for the baby Jesus? Remember, movie-shill-boy, it's not *MY* standards you have to live up to, it's the ones you claim to believe in.

Now run along and bother someone else with your asinine irrelevances.

Louis

*Haha, see what I did there? I kill me sometimes.**

**In joke...forget about it.

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Bye.

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 24 2011,06:50   

next thread, "Thoughts on whether Shiva has 10 sets of fingernail clippers"

why the hell would anyone want to go see another jimmy o'keefe style driveby con job *about* a con job?

oh right that's because kevin is a cynic and plies his wares to the average Amurrikan

well lemme tell you something kev I live right in the middle of all the average Amurrikans and they don't give a shit about your movies. †Sternberg who, your lies don't even get fixed in medium range memory.

the best i can figure, the same outfit that prints your garbage must also own stock in some DVD pressing factories and mails to a short list of preferred church youth group pastors who like to show this sort of crap on wednesday nights to pimply faced teenagers who are only there for the pizza and a chance to grope something. †

that you troll this board like a remora is, well, about what i'd expect from you.

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell.†Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4362
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 24 2011,08:42   

So.  From the responses here, it looks like this board is about evenly divided, with the two positions outlined below:

1.) Kevin is a disingenuous little moron/prick and should be ignored.

2.) Kevin is a disingenuous little moron/prick and should be poked with a stick for LOLs.

I vote for Kevin as #2.

Kevin - Over to you!

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
JAM



Posts: 503
Joined: July 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 24 2011,09:24   

Quote (khan @ Mar. 23 2011,19:39)
Quote (Robin @ Mar. 23 2011,16:50)
Of all the versions of hell out there that I've read about, the most baffling one to me is Christianity's. It has no point.

Think about the basics of the Christian version of hell for a moment:

1) Any "sin" (this term is a little vague in and of itself depending on the sect you listen to, but in general it means any act against God's proscribed rules) gets you into to hell regardless of the relative effect here on Earth. Kill 100 billion people and destroy 3/4 of the Earth or simply lust after your neighbor's wife and your in.

2) Once in, the "punishment" (again, what this is varies between sects, but in principle it involves fire and lots of it) and your soul's torment from it is eternal. Like 1 above, it doesn't matter what "sin" you committed, all receive the same treatment and it's forever.

3) The only redemption is submission to the God demands/rules (and repentance for your "sinful" behavior) before one ever gets there; there's no option to repent once there.

4) There's no rehabilitation in hell. See 2 and 3 above.

5) Once there, your torture is available to all the saints and blessed for their viewing pleasure (yep, there's schadenfreude in heaven apparently - see Isaiah 14 and 66 for instance. Revelations has some take on this as well).

Chew on that for a minute or so.

So what's the point? In this concept, you can live a good, honest life - help grandmas at swim class, give volunteer at soup kitchens, donate to cancer research, and help your neighbors and community - and burn for eternity simply because you look upon a girl at 15 and thought she was sexy. OTOH, you can be Hitler or Stalin and "find God" on your deathbed and repent your sins, and spend the rest of eternity eating bon-bons and sipping on Courvoisier †with Jesus while waving and whistling at the damned.

Yeeeaah...it just doesn't make any sense to me.

If it made sense, it wouldn't be religion.

Well, to be fair, none of that comes from the teachings of Jesus.

However, it makes infinite sense coming from those who were trying to build a church (i.e., amass political power).

It seems to me that the best avenue of attack is theological: to point out that those pushing this hellish vision are placing the Old Testament and the ramblings of Paul (as well as the ramblings falsely attributed to him) above those of Jesus Himself.

They are OTPaulians, not Christians.

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3305
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 24 2011,09:25   

Quote (J-Dog @ Mar. 24 2011,08:42)
So. †From the responses here, it looks like this board is about evenly divided, with the two positions outlined below:

1.) Kevin is a disingenuous little moron/prick and should be ignored.

2.) Kevin is a disingenuous little moron/prick and should be poked with a stick for LOLs.

I vote for Kevin as #2.

Kevin - Over to you!

I agree... I think we've asked some serious questions about hell... and had some fun.

Kevin, will you discuss this in an adult manner?  (i.e. sharing of ideas, not preaching; answering questions, not just asking them; actually considering others thoughts, instead of ignoring ones you don't agree with)

So far, it doesn't look too good.

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
kevinmillerxi



Posts: 92
Joined: Feb. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 24 2011,10:15   

Kristine, Robin, thanks for your feedback. Especially this: †
Quote
It has not made people more moral, this fear, but it has given people a new weapon with which to demonize their enemies. Say what you want about Richard Dawkins or PZ or me, but none of us believes that there is a hell waiting for anyone that we do not like.
This is one of the key areas I want to get into, the psychological function of hell as a way of enforcing boundaries/simplifying the world. Question is, can someone recommend someone a good authority on the psychology of religion?

  
kevinmillerxi



Posts: 92
Joined: Feb. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 24 2011,10:17   

OgreMkV: I find it laughable that you would quote J-Dog and then ask if  I'm going to discuss this subject in an adult manner. Clearly discussing things in an adult manner isn't a requirement to be part of this group. But to answer your question simply, yes. I don't need two millstones around my neck.

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 24 2011,10:26   

Quote (kevinmillerxi @ Mar. 24 2011,10:15)
Question is, can someone recommend someone a good authority on the psychology of religion?

I'd suggest you talk to any paedophile priest (there are 100's), no doubt the average pervert priest is more then familiar with the psychology of keeping people in fear via religion and the fear of hell.

"You'll go to hell if you tell anybody".

etc.

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I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gaugerís work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
khan



Posts: 1482
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 24 2011,10:51   

Quote (kevinmillerxi @ Mar. 24 2011,11:17)
OgreMkV: I find it laughable that you would quote J-Dog and then ask if †I'm going to discuss this subject in an adult manner. Clearly discussing things in an adult manner isn't a requirement to be part of this group. But to answer your question simply, yes. I don't need two millstones around my neck.

"Hell" can not be discussed in an adult manner; as can not unicorns or leprechauns.

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"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 24 2011,11:03   

Quote (khan @ Mar. 24 2011,11:51)
Quote (kevinmillerxi @ Mar. 24 2011,11:17)
OgreMkV: I find it laughable that you would quote J-Dog and then ask if †I'm going to discuss this subject in an adult manner. Clearly discussing things in an adult manner isn't a requirement to be part of this group. But to answer your question simply, yes. I don't need two millstones around my neck.

"Hell" can not be discussed in an adult manner; as can not unicorns or leprechauns.

what about a leprechaun doing adult things to a unicorn?

you'll go to hell for that!

"clearly this isn't a place for grown up discussions"

LMAO not with you

"This is one of the key areas I want to get into, the psychological function of hell as a way of enforcing boundaries/simplifying the world. Question is, can someone recommend someone a good authority on the psychology of religion? "

changed your mind, eh?

why would you do that?  obvious troll is obvious kevin

try here



--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell.†Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 24 2011,11:41   

Quote (J-Dog @ Mar. 24 2011,14:42)
So. †From the responses here, it looks like this board is about evenly divided, with the two positions outlined below:

1.) Kevin is a disingenuous little moron/prick and should be ignored.

2.) Kevin is a disingenuous little moron/prick and should be poked with a stick for LOLs.

I vote for Kevin as #2.

Kevin - Over to you!

OPTION TWO! RAH RAH RAH! OPTION TWO! RAH RAH RAH!

(Until we get bored, which given that Kevvo is also a one trick pony, and the trick is old, will not be long)

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3305
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 24 2011,11:42   

Quote (kevinmillerxi @ Mar. 24 2011,10:17)
OgreMkV: I find it laughable that you would quote J-Dog and then ask if †I'm going to discuss this subject in an adult manner. Clearly discussing things in an adult manner isn't a requirement to be part of this group. But to answer your question simply, yes. I don't need two millstones around my neck.

I find it laughable that you are not engaged in discussion on a discussion forum.

I find it laughable that you are asking a group of mostly atheists about who you should go to for information on religious psychology (most modern web browsers have this thing called a 'search bar').

I find it laughable that you claim to want an adult conversation, yet have not yet begun to do so.  (In practice not concept.  I do think it's possible to have an adult conversation about unicorns using the criteria I described originally).

I find it laughable that you have pledged to not lie about this production, yet refuse to admit you lied about your previous production.

I find it laughable that your religion must base its entire existence (not to mention recruitment efforts) on lies.

I find lots of things laughable... yet I'm still willing to have the conversation, I haven't found anyone on from the fundamentalist Christian side who is.

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J-Dog



Posts: 4362
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 24 2011,11:54   

Kevin - And you still haven't discussed why we or anyone, should treat "hell" any more seriously than we do "leprechauns and unicorns".


Most Sincerely,

J-Dog (aka: Millstone)

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Steverino



Posts: 407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 24 2011,11:55   

http://www.alivingdog.com/Dispelled.html

Dispelled: An Interview with Expelled †Writer Kevin Miller
by Gord Wilson


 
Quote
To me, something like The God Delusion †is a really good challenge to think through what I believe in and why do I believe it, and ask myself the big questions. Essentially, if Dawkins is right, the very tool he used to form his argument, which is reason, we have absolutely no reason to trust the outcome of. So his argument has destroyed the tool he used to create the argument. So itís nonsensical.


Kevin, my impression is, you're not as smart as you think you are.

--------------
- Born right the first time.
- Asking questions is NOT the same as providing answers.
- It's all fun and games until the flying monkeys show up!

   
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 24 2011,11:56   

Quote (kevinmillerxi @ Mar. 24 2011,16:17)
OgreMkV: I find it laughable that you would quote J-Dog and then ask if †I'm going to discuss this subject in an adult manner. Clearly discussing things in an adult manner isn't a requirement to be part of this group. But to answer your question simply, yes. I don't need two millstones around my neck.

Awwwwwwwwww. Kevvy Wevvy is having a snit.

1) Talk about something serious and you might get serious conversation.

2) Don't lie, misrepresent, and slander innocent folks and you might get people treat you nicely.

You've already failed 2), you're failing 1).

Surely a Big Important Movie Maker like you knows how to contact Dan Dennett (for one example). Hell*, even I know how to contact Dan Dennett, and I'm a total nobody. I'm sure Prof Dennett has a few ideas about who you could contact. How about Hector Avalos? There you go, two names for you. No charge. Two names you would already know had you bothered to educate yourself beyond the "Fundy Basement" level.

And yet you come to a minor website full of nasty meanies (and nobodies as you are fond of reminding us) when you could pick up the phone/contact serious people like Wes etc individually. Gosh, it's almost like your claimed motives aren't anything resembling your real ones....curiouser and curiouser. Could it be you are in fact a disingenuous, sanctimonious, dishonest, intellectually vacuous, pious fraud? Oh wait, yes it could.

As for "discussing things in an adult manner", why do you assume you are worthy of that level of engagement? You've yet to demonstrate you can do it yourself. Remember "Expelled"? We do. A Riefenstahl-esque piece of misleading propaganda, chock full of lies and misrepresentations if there ever was one. Hell**, even old Leni had some talent, you....clearly not so much.

Now grow either a spine, or some reasonable sense that your former production was grossly and deliberately misleading (but I repeat myself), and then you might be worthy of some tiny scintilla of serious treatment. Until then...TEH MOCKERY! (Which is fun, sorry)

I may find suitable LOLcats when I find the time.

Louis

*Oops I did it again!

**And again! Naughty naughty Louis.

--------------
Bye.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 24 2011,11:59   

Quote (Steverino @ Mar. 24 2011,17:55)
[SNIP]

Kevin, my impression is, you're not as smart as you think you are.

Your impression of Kevin. It is va-ah-AH-stly better than mine is.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4362
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 24 2011,11:59   

Quote
Kevin, my impression is, you're not as smart as you think you are.



FTW!

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 24 2011,12:09   

Quote (Steverino @ Mar. 24 2011,12:55)
http://www.alivingdog.com/Dispelled.html

Dispelled: An Interview with Expelled †Writer Kevin Miller
by Gord Wilson


Quote
To me, something like The God Delusion †is a really good challenge to think through what I believe in and why do I believe it, and ask myself the big questions. Essentially, if Dawkins is right, the very tool he used to form his argument, which is reason, we have absolutely no reason to trust the outcome of. So his argument has destroyed the tool he used to create the argument. So itís nonsensical.


Kevin, my impression is, you're not as smart as you think you are.

Quote
If evolution is true, you could not know that it's true because your brain is nothing but chemicals. Think about that.


think about that Kevin

what a tard.  wants to be kent hovind.  yet comes here asking for "sources"

bwaahahahahaha

no folks, he aint done lying yet!

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell.†Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 24 2011,12:10   

Quote
. Essentially, if Dawkins is right, the very tool he used to form his argument, which is reason, we have absolutely no reason to trust the outcome of.


LOL @ KEVIN.

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gaugerís work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 24 2011,12:13   

I wonder if Kevvo is capable or willing to discuss his claim that the existence of reason, and the human capacity for it, somehow proves the existence of his deity?

That at least strikes me as a serious topic, unlike hell (or its lesser cousin, heck). Ok so it's a well refuted claim, but I can just about see my way to believing Kevvo might not be aware of that. Reading is clearly not his strong suit.

Louis

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Bye.

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3305
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 24 2011,12:38   

It's actually kind of surprising that "this guy" would go that route.

The normal fundy tactic is to deny that reason is the only tool we have for figuring things out.  Instead, they also claim 'revelation' as a method for figuring things out.

So, umm... what's-your-face... do you deny revelation and accept reason as the only method for finding out things about the universe

-or-

Do you accept revelation and all the problems, misconceptions, confusion, and interpretation problems that it causes... not to mention that there is no evidence that revelation comes from God, any god, or anywhere other than the fallible mind of a single human?

Which is it please.  Once we know that, then we'll know exactly how to discuss things regarding 'hell' with you.

I mean, if you think reason is totally useless, then there's nothing anyone can ever do to help you.  Although I will insist that you destroy any tools developed by reason (unless you are a hypocrite).

If you think reason is OK and revelation has problems, then we should easily be able to convince you that 'hell' only exists in the minds and philosophy of Christians and the only bearing it has on the universe is how it makes others act (which, of course, is the entire point, to control other people).

* Yes, there is snark in here.  If you refuse to consider the question because of the snark, then you are much too thin-skinned to hang around here.  If you refuse to consider appropriate questions because they were asked in a 'mean' way, then I would encourage you to return to your church and stay there.  The real world is much to violent for you.

However, if you choose to respond to the questions, answer them, with approrpiate citations, then we can have a real discussion and the level of snark will probably drop.

The choice is up to you.  Your actions totally determine how you will be treated.  Respect is earned, not given.

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
Richardthughes



Posts: 10130
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 24 2011,12:39   

Quote (Steverino @ Mar. 24 2011,11:55)
http://www.alivingdog.com/Dispelled.html

Dispelled: An Interview with Expelled †Writer Kevin Miller
by Gord Wilson


Quote
To me, something like The God Delusion †is a really good challenge to think through what I believe in and why do I believe it, and ask myself the big questions. Essentially, if Dawkins is right, the very tool he used to form his argument, which is reason, we have absolutely no reason to trust the outcome of. So his argument has destroyed the tool he used to create the argument. So itís nonsensical.


Kevin, my impression is, you're not as smart as you think you are.

Just because it works desn't mean it's working.

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4362
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 24 2011,13:14   

Yo Kev!  I got a guy for you to talk to...

Pastor Doubts Hell - Gets Expelled / Fired

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
kevinmillerxi



Posts: 92
Joined: Feb. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 24 2011,13:33   

Thanks for the tip, J-Dog (re: Pastor expelled for doubting hell). I knew I came to the right place.

  
kevinmillerxi



Posts: 92
Joined: Feb. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 24 2011,13:38   

As far as this argument goes:
Quote
To me, something like The God Delusion †is a really good challenge to think through what I believe in and why do I believe it, and ask myself the big questions. Essentially, if Dawkins is right, the very tool he used to form his argument, which is reason, we have absolutely no reason to trust the outcome of. So his argument has destroyed the tool he used to create the argument. So itís nonsensical.
I've heard plenty of you mock it, but no one refute it.

  
JohnW



Posts: 2238
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 24 2011,13:58   

Quote (kevinmillerxi @ Mar. 24 2011,11:38)
As far as this argument goes:
 
Quote
To me, something like The God Delusion †is a really good challenge to think through what I believe in and why do I believe it, and ask myself the big questions. Essentially, if Dawkins is right, the very tool he used to form his argument, which is reason, we have absolutely no reason to trust the outcome of. So his argument has destroyed the tool he used to create the argument. So itís nonsensical.
I've heard plenty of you mock it, but no one refute it.

If we (well, you) don't trust the outcome of reason, how do you propose we go about refuting this?  Wait for revelation?

--------------
Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it.
- Robert Byers

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 24 2011,14:00   

Quote
I've heard plenty of you mock it, but no one refute it.


no, and you won't, moron



Why don't you count to potato, or fuck off?

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell.†Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3324
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 24 2011,14:01   

Quote (kevinmillerxi @ Mar. 24 2011,13:33)
Thanks for the tip, J-Dog (re: Pastor expelled for doubting hell). I knew I came to the right place.

Well, if that is the kind of stuff you are looking for, you might look up Carlton Pearson (wiki), out of Tulsa. †He also subscribes to universal reconciliation and it got him declared a heretic.

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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it. †We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 24 2011,14:02   

Quote (JohnW @ Mar. 24 2011,14:58)
Quote (kevinmillerxi @ Mar. 24 2011,11:38)
As far as this argument goes:
Quote
To me, something like The God Delusion †is a really good challenge to think through what I believe in and why do I believe it, and ask myself the big questions. Essentially, if Dawkins is right, the very tool he used to form his argument, which is reason, we have absolutely no reason to trust the outcome of. So his argument has destroyed the tool he used to create the argument. So itís nonsensical.
I've heard plenty of you mock it, but no one refute it.

If we (well, you) don't trust the outcome of reason, how do you propose we go about refuting this? †Wait for revelation?

maybe he is talking about "raisins"?

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell.†Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3324
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 24 2011,14:06   

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ Mar. 24 2011,14:00)
Why don't you count to potato, or fuck off?



--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it. †We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3305
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 24 2011,14:12   

Quote (kevinmillerxi @ Mar. 24 2011,13:38)
As far as this argument goes:
 
Quote
To me, something like The God Delusion †is a really good challenge to think through what I believe in and why do I believe it, and ask myself the big questions. Essentially, if Dawkins is right, the very tool he used to form his argument, which is reason, we have absolutely no reason to trust the outcome of. So his argument has destroyed the tool he used to create the argument. So itís nonsensical.
I've heard plenty of you mock it, but no one refute it.

It's not nonsensical, your 'argument' is nonsensical.

1) Dawkins uses reason to argue against God being a good thing.
2) If he used reason, then he disproved his own point.

Which of those makes no sense?  (hint, it's not the first one)

Why don't you run through the logic of how you arrived at the conclusion that using reason disproves a conclusion based on... well... reason.

While you are at it, you might want to read my post about other methods of knowing (of which there aren't any) and answer that question as well.

So far, I've seen several questions asked of you, but you refuse to answer.  So, Louis and J-Dog are correct, if you won't talk as an adult... all we're left with is humor.

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
Schroedinger's Dog



Posts: 1691
Joined: Jan. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 24 2011,14:14   

Quote (JohnW @ Mar. 24 2011,19:58)
Quote (kevinmillerxi @ Mar. 24 2011,11:38)
As far as this argument goes:
Quote
To me, something like The God Delusion †is a really good challenge to think through what I believe in and why do I believe it, and ask myself the big questions. Essentially, if Dawkins is right, the very tool he used to form his argument, which is reason, we have absolutely no reason to trust the outcome of. So his argument has destroyed the tool he used to create the argument. So itís nonsensical.
I've heard plenty of you mock it, but no one refute it.

If we (well, you) don't trust the outcome of reason, how do you propose we go about refuting this? †Wait for revelation?

There may be some grammatical confusion somewhere in there. Kevin, could you please rephrase this so everyone (including non-US citizens) can get a feel of what you mean? I'm sorry but I feel there's something in there I don't get, because it makes no sense to me...

--------------
"Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G

"I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis

"The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

   
dvunkannon



Posts: 1377
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 24 2011,14:20   

If Dawkins is right... about evolution...
and evolution rewards understanding reality, planning (frog leading fly to hit it, Komodo dragon waiting for tourists), etc....
it would seem that evolution would not support reason only if the world itself were not reasonable.

Do you think there are "Rules of Right Reason" that are independent of the world? Can you mention one?

--------------
Iím referring to evolution, not changes in allele frequencies. - Cornelius Hunter
Iím not an evolutionist, Iím a change in allele frequentist! - Nakashima

  
Henry J



Posts: 4068
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 24 2011,15:00   

When a paragraph is self-refuting, adding an additional refutation to it would be redundant.

  
Robin



Posts: 1430
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 24 2011,15:11   

Quote
Kevin: To me, something like The God Delusion †is a really good challenge to think through what I believe in and why do I believe it, and ask myself the big questions. Essentially, if Dawkins is right, the very tool he used to form his argument, which is reason, we have absolutely no reason to trust the outcome of. So his argument has destroyed the tool he used to create the argument. So itís nonsensical.


A problem with this argument (among a few I might add), Kevin, is that it assumes that tools have qualities requiring trust as opposed to parameters in which they can be validly operated. Why would you assume such? Does a hammer or a saw require trust? No, they require training and skill to use and some idea of why the tool would be useful for a given task. Reasoning/logic is no different - it is a tool for determining whether a given person's thought process or concept accurately holds to a given set of rules. The problem many creationists have with the concept of reason is they presume reason defines the rules. It doesn't. Repeatability, consistency, and predictability define the rules and those rules we refer to as "reality".

So in essence, your problem with Dawkin's argument is that you don't think that his tool can be used reliably to assess the rules that make up your reality. Basically that's like arguing that hammers aren't valid tools because you believe that milk should make a good nail. †

Hate to break it to you, Kevin, but that would be your problem, not his.

--------------
we IDists rule in design for the flagellum and cilium largely because they do look designed. †Bilbo

The only reason you reject Thor is because, like a cushion, you bear the imprint of the biggest arse that sat on you. Louis

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 10130
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 24 2011,16:08   

http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/comment....#

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Henry J



Posts: 4068
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 24 2011,16:54   

Not to mention that the claim that if we can't trust arguments based on reason, then we wouldn't be able to trust that argument, either, since it's allegedly based on reason.

  
kevinmillerxi



Posts: 92
Joined: Feb. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2011,00:52   

My thought process: If what we refer to as reason is nothing but the product of chance + necessity, then the outcome of our reasoning process couldn't be anything more than the same--a product of chance plus necessity. Therefore, the things we refer to as thoughts and arguments are of no more consequence than than the process in our body that manufactures insulin. I'm not saying that's how I think. I just see it as the logical consequence of an atheistic point of view. Put another way: If chance + necessity are the only forces at work in the universe shaping life and everything else we see around us (another way of saying random mutation plus natural selection), you can't sneak anything else in and pretend that the thoughts in your brain are a product of anything that would give them significance beyond what you ascribe to them. So why give credence to them? Why feel passionately about them?

I guess my point is, I hear a lot of people espousing an atheistic point of view but very people actually living out the logical consequences of that point of view. Even Will Provine, who has done as good a job as any of following things through to their logical conclusions, does not seem to live according to his espoused worldview.

But I'm off topic. This thread is supposed to be about hell.

  
k.e..



Posts: 2894
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2011,01:52   

Quote (kevinmillerxi @ Mar. 25 2011,08:52)
My thought process: If what we refer to as reason is nothing but the product of chance + necessity, then the outcome of our reasoning process couldn't be anything more than the same--a product of chance plus necessity. Therefore, the things we refer to as thoughts and arguments are of no more consequence than than the process in our body that manufactures insulin. I'm not saying that's how I think. I just see it as the logical consequence of an atheistic point of view. Put another way: If chance + necessity are the only forces at work in the universe shaping life and everything else we see around us (another way of saying random mutation plus natural selection), you can't sneak anything else in and pretend that the thoughts in your brain are a product of anything that would give them significance beyond what you ascribe to them. So why give credence to them? Why feel passionately about them?

I guess my point is, I hear a lot of people espousing an atheistic point of view but very people actually living out the logical consequences of that point of view. Even Will Provine, who has done as good a job as any of following things through to their logical conclusions, does not seem to live according to his espoused worldview.

But I'm off topic. This thread is supposed to be about hell.

Your reasoning maybe the product of improbability and need leading to your perception of an existential angst.

But even a dog can figure out how to cross a busy road road without being hit by a car, many however get hit.

Your powers of reasoning don't seem to be much use why don't you take up something more suitable?

--------------
"I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his clown DaveTard suit" dogdidit
"Abbie Smith (ERV) who's got to be the most obnoxious arrogant snot I've ever seen except for when I look in a mirror" DAVE TARD
"ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus

  
fnxtr



Posts: 2123
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2011,02:18   

[quote=kevinmillerxi,Mar. 24 2011,22:52][/quote]
†  
Quote
My thought process: If what we refer to as reason is nothing but the product of chance + necessity, then the outcome of our reasoning process couldn't be anything more than the same--a product of chance plus necessity. Therefore, the things we refer to as thoughts and arguments are of no more consequence than than the process in our body that manufactures insulin. †


Yeah... and?

†  
Quote
If chance + necessity are the only forces at work in the universe shaping life and everything else we see around us (another way of saying random mutation plus natural selection), you can't sneak anything else in and pretend that the thoughts in your brain are a product of anything that would give them significance beyond what you ascribe to them. So why (1)give credence to them? (2)Why feel passionately about them?



1) Because they work.
2) Because we're wired that way.

†  
Quote
I guess my point is, I hear a lot of people espousing an atheistic point of view but very people actually living out the logical consequences of that point of view. Even Will Provine, who has done as good a job as any of following things through to their logical conclusions, does not seem to live according to his espoused worldview.

But I'm off topic. This thread is supposed to be about hell.


Okay, that was sort of English... are you saying nihilism is the only logical consequence of atheism?

We're still social animals, and subject to the drives and reactions and values that helped us survive as such. †

Just because we don't see the point in believing in your imaginary friend doesn't mean we can't love our families. Can you not grasp that?

As for "reason", again: because it works! The volcano blew because magma forced its way through the earth's crust, not because we didn't sacrifice a virgin.

--------------
"But it's disturbing to think someone actually thinks creationism -- having put it's hand on the hot stove every day for the last 400 years -- will get a different result tomorrow." -- midwifetoad

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2011,03:59   

Quote (fnxtr @ Mar. 25 2011,02:18)
I hear a lot of people espousing an atheistic point of view but very people actually living out the logical consequences of that point of view.

Kevin,
If by that you mean a random spree of murder and mayhem whenever the mood strikes, then, well, why don't we meet up some time and I can tell you all about it?

Seems to me the people who should know best about "logical consequences" and hell are the child abusing priests and yet they still do it.

Perhaps it's because in your religion you can be forgiven at the drop of a hat? So "hell" is something for non-believers, whatever the believer themselves has done.

So stick it up your fundament, liar boy.

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gaugerís work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
Schroedinger's Dog



Posts: 1691
Joined: Jan. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2011,04:29   

Quote
Perhaps it's because in your religion you can be forgiven at the drop of a hat? So "hell" is something for non-believers, whatever the believer themselves has done.


I think this beautifuly sums it up.

There's always, among religious fundies, cries of "atheists are immoral! Atheists can steal, rape, kill without fear of consequences...". But in the end, religious fundies seem to be the ones that could be prone to terrible acts without fear of consequences, since all they have to do to absolve themselves is ask for forgiveness from their sky-daddy.

What was it again? "Kill them all, God will recognize His own"?

--------------
"Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G

"I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis

"The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

   
Amadan



Posts: 1245
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2011,05:27   

So if I'm following Kevin's reasoning,* the good or bad, right or wrong, even the up or down of anything in the universe (or to cut it down to a manageable scale, the human bit of it) can only be evaluated by invoking an external reference point.

Why is that, Kevin? Is it intrinsic in the ideas of 'good' or 'right' (or 'up' for that matter)? Is an external reference point needed for any logical argument, or just moral ones?

And how do you know that? By use of reason? A slight logical problem there, donchathink? (Hint: "a way a lone a last a loved a long the | riverrun, past Eve and Adam's, from swerve of shore to bend of bay, brings us by a commodius vicus of recirculation back to Howth Castle and Environs.")

And if we were to concede the need for an external reference point, can tell us how you identify it? Does it just happen to resemble one you were immersed in since childhood, that you identified with in your adolescence and adult** life, and that you have built your social and working life around since then? Just asking.

Assuming for the sake of this discussion that deity-free reasoning has the rigour of blended jellyfish, why do those of us who don't belong to your club still manage to learn our multiplication tables (at least six times out four, anyway)?

And finally, why are we promised a long career shovelling coal after we die for (a) seeing how specious your argument is and (b) treating it accordingly?



* Tee hee


** Don't, Louis. It's not worth the effort.


--------------
"People are always looking for natural selection to generate random mutations" - Densye  4-4-2011
JoeG BTW dumbass- some variations help ensure reproductive fitness so they cannot be random wrt it.

   
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2011,06:28   

Quote (kevinmillerxi @ Mar. 25 2011,01:52)
My thought process: If what we refer to as reason is nothing but the product of chance + necessity <snipped extraneous bullshit arguments to consequences for sake of exposing fallacious premise>

but what if instead what we refer to as reason is nothing but the product of mara + samsara

but what if instead what we refer to as reason is nothing but the product of seven and greenish-purple

but what if instead what we refer to as reason is nothing but the product of strongly and edge

but what if instead what we refer to as reason is nothing but the product of (35.033387N, 92.364583W) and a fluffy texture?

you started out lying kevin

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You're obviously illiterate as hell.†Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2011,06:59   

Quote (kevinmillerxi @ Mar. 25 2011,06:52)
My thought process: If what we refer to as reason is nothing but the product of chance + necessity, then the outcome of our reasoning process couldn't be anything more than the same--a product of chance plus necessity. Therefore, the things we refer to as thoughts and arguments are of no more consequence than than the process in our body that manufactures insulin. I'm not saying that's how I think. I just see it as the logical consequence of an atheistic point of view. Put another way: If chance + necessity are the only forces at work in the universe shaping life and everything else we see around us (another way of saying random mutation plus natural selection), you can't sneak anything else in and pretend that the thoughts in your brain are a product of anything that would give them significance beyond what you ascribe to them. So why give credence to them? Why feel passionately about them?

I guess my point is, I hear a lot of people espousing an atheistic point of view but very people actually living out the logical consequences of that point of view. Even Will Provine, who has done as good a job as any of following things through to their logical conclusions, does not seem to live according to his espoused worldview.

But I'm off topic. This thread is supposed to be about hell.

So in other words "atheists are hypocrites because they don't live up to Kevin Miller's straw man of what atheism/a naturalistic world view is". Gotcha. Well it's nice to know you "argue" in good faith, Kevvo. Oh wait, "Expelled", no you don't.

Shall we take it step by step:

1) "If what we refer to as reason is nothing but the product of chance + necessity"

STRAW MAN

Simply no one claims this. It is not the result of evolutionary biology, nor a scientific understanding of the universe. You have a) simply failed to understand what you have read (if you have read anything, which I sincerely doubt, you are simply regurgitating creationist tropes) and b) tiresomely misrepresented the position of your opponents (what's new Kevvo?).

Just to take a tiny example from evolutionary biology alone, what about drift? Adaptation is not the only force at work in changing allele frequencies. There are, of course, many other examples. You also ignore history, your argument relies on everything springing to life (be it an organism or an argument) on equal footing ex nihilo. You are ignoring the ratcheting effect of history/development/evolution, again for either an argument, a process or an organism.

There is also an unstated claim here, i.e. your assumption that a natural process (or set of processes) is insufficient to produce (or examine) the universe. That is, in itself a very bold (and unsubstantiated and refuted) claim. What you fail to understand is the burden of proof here rests on you and your fellow theists/supernaturalists. You are claiming that some form of supernatural process is at work in the universe, more than that, that a supernatural process is required to understand and examine the universe.

Without evidence, and let's be exceedingly blunt, you have no evidence, why should anyone take such a claim seriously? You forget that you are not arguing against people who claim the polar opposite (i.e. that nothing other than natural processes can be at work as a matter of faith or belief, but that no evidence that any such supernatural processes are at work has yet been discovered, and until it is, we can only work with what we have evidence for. Forgive me if I doubt you can grasp the distinction). Your misrepresentations of other people's arguments are not binding on them. Your lack of knowledge and understanding do not constitute evidence. Sorry.

There's also more than a shred of "the argument from personal incredulity" underpinning your straw man here. More of that later.

2) "then the outcome of our reasoning process couldn't be anything more than the same--a product of chance plus necessity"

NON SEQUITUR AND DERIVED FROM IGNORANCE

This does not follow from the above. It relies on the (erroneous) assumption that simple processes cannot give rise to more complex ones. It simply ignores emergent phenomena, feedback, hysteresis, all of neuroscience, in fact anything we understand about the physical functions of cognition, stimulus and response in all organisms from archea to zebras. If no emergent phenomena existed, if we couldn't (for example) demonstrate greater complexity emerging from simple systems, then you *might* have a point, but we can, so you don't.

It's also a derivative of your "How can that be? WAH!" argument from personal incredulity which underpins a lot of this drivel. Pro-tip: if you don't understand it, it doesn't follow that no one else does. Pro-tip 2: †any argument that can be refuted by the fact that water freezes is a very stupid argument. Forgive me if I cannot be bothered to explain why that is the case and why it is relevant here. Do your own homework.

3) "Therefore, the things we refer to as thoughts and arguments are of no more consequence than than the process in our body that manufactures insulin."

NON SEQUITUR AND INCOHERENT

So because thoughts and arguments derive from natural process they are of no more "consequence" (a weasel word if I ever saw one) than some random piece of non-cognitive biology. Even if this was true, and it isn't, so what? Hint: Even you don't think with you pancreas. Since you {cough} "expand" on this below, I'll eviscerate it there.

4) "If chance + necessity are the only forces at work in the universe shaping life and everything else we see around us (another way of saying random mutation plus natural selection), you can't sneak anything else in and pretend that the thoughts in your brain are a product of anything that would give them significance beyond what you ascribe to them. So why give credence to them? Why feel passionately about them?"

NON SEQUITUR AND INCOHERENT

"Significance", "consequence", "feel", "credence", "passion"? You are profoundly confused. There are two mix ups here (at least.

a) Passion/feeling/emotions: We are organisms that have evolved complex, multilevel brains and endocrine systems. Our feelings and emotions "reduce" to surges of hormones and neurotransmitters etc. Your sense that there is even a coherent "self" behind your eyes somewhere is as much an illusion constructed by multiple brain processes as the orientation of the images you see is. So what? Because some cognitive process is "reduced" to other "simpler" processes it somehow robs itself of meaning? This is utterly incoherent. It doesn't even begin to follow from "natural processes made X therefore X has no more significance than Y". You are trying to argue against a welter of barely related/unrelated items and messing your pants in the process.

The fact that I get a surge of oxytocin when I hug my wife or son and that is part of a chain of neurochemical events that causes me to feel something I call "love" or "happiness" in no way invalidates that feeling. The complaint here is the erroneous one of the Romantic poets, the one that claimed that Newton explaining the rainbow robbed it of its †beauty. It's utter arse gravy. It is still more than possible to be fully human, to appreciate the superficial wonder of an emotion, to lose oneself unthinkingly in the moment whilst understanding the phenomena that underpin it and appreciating their beauty. The fact that we can attach some subjective thought to something does not invalidate that subjective thought in any sense.

XKCD today does the job:



b) Naive relativism: Why is my surge of oxytocin more "significant" or "of more consequence" than a surge of (to use your example) insulin. Significant in what way? Of what consequence? If I am a diabetic the extent and timing of my surge of insulin might decide whether I live or die, I'd say that was of some consequence. These weasel words you are using are dependent on context, without context one cannot ascribe priority. This is an appeal to common prejudice on your part, it's not logic, it's rhetoric, and shallow, puerile, transparent rhetoric at that. It could only convince something with the intellectual gifts of a yoghurt.

Also, when it comes to understanding the world around me I tend to use the neurons in my brain, not the Islets of Langerhans in my pancreas. I'm not sure what organs and cells you use to think with, I have my doubts they are part of the central nervous system, but you should really try to shift the foundation of your cognition from your fundament.

c) Trustworthiness of naturally derived thoughts: They're not all trustworthy.

Sorry, is this a surprise?

To paraphrase the great Samuel L Jackson in Pulp Fiction: "Trial and error, motherfucker? Do you know it?". Ok so it isn't all trial and error (see 1) for examples of why, there's a bit more to it....understatement of the decade!) but it's an easy place to start.

If I believe I am being delicately sodomised by a purple space goat, an unpleasant thought I assure you, I can check that thought. I can match it to sensory input, I can match it to previous experience and the previous experiences of others to some extent. None of these processes are perfect, but they don't need to be. I need to achieve some level of confidence in my thoughts, practical or pragmatic certainty not absolute certainty. I feel no sensation of being sodomised by a purple space goat, I can't see any space goat in the mirror, there are no goaty noises and I'm fully dressed. Couple all that to the well documented distribution of goats in our solar system (all earth bound), their colour, their habits and the fact that it doesn't appear to be the case that a rash of purple space goat sodomy has broken out nation wide, and I can pretty confidently assume that that thought was an untrustworthy one.

The subtext here is that you are asking for something no one can provide: absolute epistemological certainty. Even faith and revelation as described in one tedious theological tract †after another (and I've read 'em) cannot deliver this. It can only deliver the appearance of this to an individual, which, I hope I don't have to point out to you, is a different thing. It could all be pixies underneath, but in the absence of any reliable evidence for it all being pixies underneath I feel confident in discounting that possibility until some evidence comes up.

And again, your whine...sorry "argument" here ignores what I have been referring to as "history".

d) Significance beyond "mere" subjectivity:

History, socialisation, culture, development, experience, these are all just words to you aren't they Kevvo? People do not spring into existence from nothing fully formed. As mentioned in 1) they have history. Even if that history is merely the accumulation of biological "accidents" (and it so isn't). As we gain a growing understanding of embryology, for example, we learn how developments in utero can have profound effects on the adult. The experiences of a young infant can, to some extent, determine the subjective preferences of the adult. What we have is a welter of disparate, sometimes conflicting, sometimes reinforcing influences from many myriad sources. This will give rise to a plethora of conflicting/reinforcing (subjective) senses and impulses. Why one specific subjective impulse or sense can be prioritised over another is a very specific question, not one uninformed by reason, but one that requires a greater understanding of the relevant, specific context of that impulse or sense. We're not a blank slate.

5) "I guess my point is, I hear a lot of people espousing an atheistic point of view but very people actually living out the logical consequences of that point of view."

NON SEQUITUR AND ARGUMENTUM AD HOMINEM

Since you a) demonstrably do not understand any "atheistic point of view", and b) demonstrably have not represented any "atheistic point of view" beyond your straw man version of one, then this is self-refuting. It's the old "if you were really an atheist you'd be out raping and pillaging" argument made slightly more polite...emphasis on "sightly". It doesn't address the arguments made by atheists (and there are a variety), it seeks only to avoid any arguments by directing attention away from the argument and to the supposed characteristics of your fictional straw atheist. It is a classic argumentum ad hominem, argument at the person not the argument. Note that this is different from abuse. I and other give you abuse, not argumenta ad homines. You are a moron because your arguments are palpable horseshit, your arguments are not horseshit because you are a palpable moron. Forgive me again if I lack any faith in you grasping that distinction.

Worse than that, your "argument" (I hate to dignify it so) implies that what keeps you from "living the logical consequences of an atheistic point of view", whatever they might be, is the belief in a magic man in the sky who watches you masturbate. Sorry Kevvo, but if all that keeps you on the straight and narrow is unthinking fear of punishment...hell if you will (gosh, relevance!)...then you can keep your religion and all that goes with it. Atheism doesn't equate to, or advocate, amorality or immorality.

Your "argument" here also doesn't even slightly follow from what precedes it, and borders on incoherence. Atheism is not a world view or a system of beliefs, or a religion. It is a simple philosophical position on a specific claim or set of claims. You claim the Christian god exists, ascribe to him certain attributes, make certain claims about him. I (and others) go and look for evidence for that claim and find it isn't there. We look at the "evidence" you put up and find it to be identical to the "evidence" you reject for other deities. Hence we simply do not believe your claim to have been demonstrated. Hell*, most of the arguments you do make might lead one to some vague deism at best, they certainly apply no more concretely to your specific deity than, say, the Sikh deity.

What we find is EXACTLY the same special pleading and drivel that we find when someone claims that Thor exists (for example). The only reason you reject Thor is because, like a cushion, you bear the imprint of the biggest arse that sat on you. You adhere to the religion of your society and environment for some reason (and more power to you, it neither breaks my leg nor picks my pocket) and reject other religions because, well, they are OTHER religions, and therefore "untrue". You can see through the transparent tissue of nonsense supporting them, perhaps, but for reasons beknownst only to you, don't see the self same problems with your own religious claims. I won't give you credit for a rational analysis of other faiths because I seriously doubt, based on your drivel, that you have even bothered to emerge from a fundamentalist basement to squint at the sunlight, let alone pursued an open minded study of world religions. I'd be happy to be wrong about this, but I'll bet I'm not.

Sorry, wasn't I nice enough for you to pay attention? Hmmmm I wonder, would I be nice if you stopped lying and bullshitting (the two are not equivalent)?

So to close, in the immortal words of the prophet Mohammed: "Fuck off you toilet"**

I thank you.

Louis

* Oooops, I seem to keep doing that.

** Couldn't resist. I'm a bad, bad bunny. I'm off for a spanking.

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Bye.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
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(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2011,07:01   

Quote (kevinmillerxi @ Mar. 24 2011,19:38)
As far as this argument goes:
 
Quote
To me, something like The God Delusion †is a really good challenge to think through what I believe in and why do I believe it, and ask myself the big questions. Essentially, if Dawkins is right, the very tool he used to form his argument, which is reason, we have absolutely no reason to trust the outcome of. So his argument has destroyed the tool he used to create the argument. So itís nonsensical.
I've heard plenty of you mock it, but no one refute it.

Your inability to read for comprehension and do your own homework is not evidence or impressive.

Louis

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Bye.

  
Louis



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(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2011,07:02   

Quote (Henry J @ Mar. 24 2011,21:00)
When a paragraph is self-refuting, adding an additional refutation to it would be redundant.

But occasionally amusing ;-)

Louis

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Bye.

  
Louis



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(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2011,07:04   

Quote (Amadan @ Mar. 25 2011,11:27)
[SNIP]

...adult**...

[SNIP]

** Don't, Louis. It's not worth the effort.

Oh it SO is.

But I will be a good boy. Well, sort of. Maybe.

Louis

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Bye.

  
Erasmus, FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2011,07:33   

Louis
Quote
I am being delicately sodomised by a purple space goat


HAHA

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You're obviously illiterate as hell.†Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Louis



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Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2011,07:39   

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ Mar. 25 2011,13:33)
Louis
Quote
I am being delicately sodomised by a purple space goat


HAHA

{Coughs politely}

I fear you may have extracted the wrong "take home message" from that portion of the post.

;-)

Louis

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Bye.

  
Robin



Posts: 1430
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2011,07:48   

Quote (JAM @ Mar. 24 2011,09:24)

Quote
Quote (khan @ Mar. 23 2011,19:39)
Quote (Robin @ Mar. 23 2011,16:50)
Of all the versions of hell out there that I've read about, the most baffling one to me is Christianity's. It has no point.

Think about the basics of the Christian version of hell for a moment:

1) Any "sin" (this term is a little vague in and of itself depending on the sect you listen to, but in general it means any act against God's proscribed rules) gets you into to hell regardless of the relative effect here on Earth. Kill 100 billion people and destroy 3/4 of the Earth or simply lust after your neighbor's wife and your in.

2) Once in, the "punishment" (again, what this is varies between sects, but in principle it involves fire and lots of it) and your soul's torment from it is eternal. Like 1 above, it doesn't matter what "sin" you committed, all receive the same treatment and it's forever.

3) The only redemption is submission to the God demands/rules (and repentance for your "sinful" behavior) before one ever gets there; there's no option to repent once there.

4) There's no rehabilitation in hell. See 2 and 3 above.

5) Once there, your torture is available to all the saints and blessed for their viewing pleasure (yep, there's schadenfreude in heaven apparently - see Isaiah 14 and 66 for instance. Revelations has some take on this as well).

Chew on that for a minute or so.

So what's the point? In this concept, you can live a good, honest life - help grandmas at swim class, give volunteer at soup kitchens, donate to cancer research, and help your neighbors and community - and burn for eternity simply because you look upon a girl at 15 and thought she was sexy. OTOH, you can be Hitler or Stalin and "find God" on your deathbed and repent your sins, and spend the rest of eternity eating bon-bons and sipping on Courvoisier  with Jesus while waving and whistling at the damned.

Yeeeaah...it just doesn't make any sense to me.

If it made sense, it wouldn't be religion.

Well, to be fair, none of that comes from the teachings of Jesus.

However, it makes infinite sense coming from those who were trying to build a church (i.e., amass political power).

It seems to me that the best avenue of attack is theological: to point out that those pushing this hellish vision are placing the Old Testament and the ramblings of Paul (as well as the ramblings falsely attributed to him) above those of Jesus Himself.

They are OTPaulians, not Christians.


Hmm...missed this earlier. Sorry 'bout that.

And I totally agree, but to be equally fair, that is the (albeit overly simplified) version that the religion of Christianity teaches. It may not be accurate given what Jesus intended, but that's kind of irrelevant at this point.

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we IDists rule in design for the flagellum and cilium largely because they do look designed. †Bilbo

The only reason you reject Thor is because, like a cushion, you bear the imprint of the biggest arse that sat on you. Louis

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
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(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2011,07:56   

Quote (Louis @ Mar. 25 2011,08:39)
Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Mar. 25 2011,13:33)
Louis  
Quote
I am being delicately sodomised by a purple space goat


HAHA

{Coughs politely}

I fear you may have extracted the wrong "take home message" from that portion of the post.

;-)

Louis

ah yes i see, "purple" is subjective inn'tit

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You're obviously illiterate as hell.†Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Robin



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Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2011,08:04   

[quote=kevinmillerxi,Mar. 25 2011,00:52][/quote]
Quote
My thought process: If what we refer to as reason is nothing but the product of chance + necessity, then the outcome of our reasoning process couldn't be anything more than the same--a product of chance plus necessity.


BZZZZZZ!!! WRONG!

What you're doing is equating meta property results with the underlying causal process. Basically your argument here is no different than insisting that if salt is nothing but the product of sodium and chloride (or water is nothing but the product of hydrogen and oxygen or...), then the outcome couldn't be anything more than the same. Dare ya to put sodium and chloride separately on your food and try to eat it. Further, I double dog dare you to insist that sodium and chloride sitting in separate jars are the same thing as salt.


In the same way, reason (the 'taste', if you will, of using salt) is merely a tool (or in this case "spice") that is a meta product of the functioning human brain (the salt in this case). That evolution - a process of "chance and necessity" (or the sodium and chloride) happen to the process that produces the brain does not mean that the products of the brain are somehow chance and necessity.

The rest of your post is just more details on your erroneous premises and faulty conclusions.

Quote
I guess my point is, I hear a lot of people espousing an atheistic point of view but very people actually living out the logical consequences of that point of view. Even Will Provine, who has done as good a job as any of following things through to their logical conclusions, does not seem to live according to his espoused worldview.


It's perfectly easy to live out an atheistic world-view. You start with "I'm hungry" and everything you know about reality follows from there.

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we IDists rule in design for the flagellum and cilium largely because they do look designed. †Bilbo

The only reason you reject Thor is because, like a cushion, you bear the imprint of the biggest arse that sat on you. Louis

  
Schroedinger's Dog



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(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2011,08:13   

Too many potential POTWs to decide.

If only I had religion and wasn't only driven by chance + necessity...

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"Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G

"I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis

"The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

   
Robin



Posts: 1430
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2011,08:15   

Quote (Louis @ Mar. 25 2011,06:59)

OMG!!! Abso-EFFFING-Lutely the FUNNIEST and most insightful bit! I'm dyin' here! LOL!

And this:

Quote
The only reason you reject Thor is because, like a cushion, you bear the imprint of the biggest arse that sat on you.


...is my sig!!!

LMAO!!

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we IDists rule in design for the flagellum and cilium largely because they do look designed. †Bilbo

The only reason you reject Thor is because, like a cushion, you bear the imprint of the biggest arse that sat on you. Louis

  
Louis



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Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2011,08:32   

Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Mar. 25 2011,14:13)
Too many potential POTWs to decide.

If only I had religion and wasn't only driven by chance + necessity...

But as an atheist in the Kevvo-verse shouldn't you be asking "which POTW nomination allows me to rape the most women and kids"?

Obviously it's the Atheist Way (TM Patent Pending)

Louis

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Richardthughes



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(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2011,08:40   

If you believe in Hell
And then have children
You are a monster.

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"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Erasmus, FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2011,08:54   

Quote (Richardthughes @ Mar. 25 2011,09:40)
If you believe in Hell
And then have children
You are a monster.

absofuckinglutely

add "and oppose abortion*"

* and if you think that aborted fetuses go to hell, you worship a monster

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You're obviously illiterate as hell.†Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Amadan



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Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2011,09:19   

Quote (Robin @ Mar. 25 2011,14:04)
Further, I double dog dare you to insist that sodium and chloride sitting in separate jars are the same thing as salt.

And so we identify the roots of Kevin's problems:

- defective seasoning
- waging an assalt on Enlightenment values
- his history as a cellar of propagandumentaries

No wonder his last film barely made a wooden nacl.

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"People are always looking for natural selection to generate random mutations" - Densye  4-4-2011
JoeG BTW dumbass- some variations help ensure reproductive fitness so they cannot be random wrt it.

   
J-Dog



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Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2011,09:28   

Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Mar. 25 2011,08:13)
Too many potential POTWs to decide.

If only I had religion and wasn't only driven by chance + necessity...

Alright Lou - BACK TO WORK!  POTW** all - around for everyone*!  

* No, NOT Kevin.

** So, to make it easier for Lou, do we need a "Thread Of The Week Award"?
Or, if Kev is involved a "Thread Of The Weak"?

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
OgreMkV



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(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2011,10:22   

Louis, you rock.  Thanks.

Miller-dude, what is your response to this simple statement.

Your God come to you and says, "From henceforth, I require that all my worshippers eat one baby a month or they will go to Hell."

You either
a) say "Pass the Ketchup" in which case you are a evil, evil man.

b) say "No" in which case you have denied your God's authority to make moral decisions on your behalf and instead are fully capable of making your own moral decisions... even without God.

c) say "God would never say something like that", in which case, there is a morality that is external to God which even He must follow.  Which, again, means that you can go directly to that external morality and skip God entirely.  Provided you have the strength and courage to do so.

Atheists understand that morality and ethics is based on one's culture.  To a Mayan, it was perfectly acceptable to sacrifice a young woman in the Spring.  The young boys competed for a chance to be sacrificed.  To a citizen of Judea about 2011 years ago, slaves were perfectly acceptable and a slave could be beat almost to death.  Women and children were regularly stoned to death while the entire village looked on.  etc. etc. etc.

Our culture does not find any of that acceptable.  Hell (copying Louis), even the Southern Baptists have taken slavery out of their charter (in 1996!!!!).

So, how can atheists be moral?  Because we are smart enough to know what is acceptable in our culture.

That is why we don't need your Hell.  Because we act morally and ethically because we want to, not because we are forced to.

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Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
J-Dog



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Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2011,10:28   

Quote
That is why we don't need your Hell, your god, or you.  Because we act morally and ethically because we want to, not because we are forced to.



Ogre - Fixed That For You!

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Dr.GH



Posts: 1956
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2011,10:39   

Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Mar. 24 2011,10:10)
Quote
. Essentially, if Dawkins is right, the very tool he used to form his argument, which is reason, we have absolutely no reason to trust the outcome of.


LOL @ KEVIN.

I recall this was an argument invented by CS Lewis, and very popular with creationists. And makes me wonder what the existance of "stupid" proves. I think it must prove something.

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"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
OgreMkV



Posts: 3305
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2011,10:47   

Quote (J-Dog @ Mar. 25 2011,10:28)
Quote
That is why we don't need your Hell, your god, or you. †Because we act morally and ethically because we want to, not because we are forced to.



Ogre - Fixed That For You!

Ah yes, I did forget those little bits.

Thanks!

Why don't these people go form a commune or something?  I could probably get them a deal on Flavor Aid.

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
JAM



Posts: 503
Joined: July 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2011,10:51   

Quote (Robin @ Mar. 25 2011,06:48)
[quote=JAM,Mar. 24 2011,09:24][/quote]
Quote
Quote (khan @ Mar. 23 2011,19:39)
 
Quote (Robin @ Mar. 23 2011,16:50)
Of all the versions of hell out there that I've read about, the most baffling one to me is Christianity's. It has no point.

Think about the basics of the Christian version of hell for a moment:

1) Any "sin" (this term is a little vague in and of itself depending on the sect you listen to, but in general it means any act against God's proscribed rules) gets you into to hell regardless of the relative effect here on Earth. Kill 100 billion people and destroy 3/4 of the Earth or simply lust after your neighbor's wife and your in.

2) Once in, the "punishment" (again, what this is varies between sects, but in principle it involves fire and lots of it) and your soul's torment from it is eternal. Like 1 above, it doesn't matter what "sin" you committed, all receive the same treatment and it's forever.

3) The only redemption is submission to the God demands/rules (and repentance for your "sinful" behavior) before one ever gets there; there's no option to repent once there.

4) There's no rehabilitation in hell. See 2 and 3 above.

5) Once there, your torture is available to all the saints and blessed for their viewing pleasure (yep, there's schadenfreude in heaven apparently - see Isaiah 14 and 66 for instance. Revelations has some take on this as well).

Chew on that for a minute or so.

So what's the point? In this concept, you can live a good, honest life - help grandmas at swim class, give volunteer at soup kitchens, donate to cancer research, and help your neighbors and community - and burn for eternity simply because you look upon a girl at 15 and thought she was sexy. OTOH, you can be Hitler or Stalin and "find God" on your deathbed and repent your sins, and spend the rest of eternity eating bon-bons and sipping on Courvoisier †with Jesus while waving and whistling at the damned.

Yeeeaah...it just doesn't make any sense to me.

If it made sense, it wouldn't be religion.

Well, to be fair, none of that comes from the teachings of Jesus.

However, it makes infinite sense coming from those who were trying to build a church (i.e., amass political power).

It seems to me that the best avenue of attack is theological: to point out that those pushing this hellish vision are placing the Old Testament and the ramblings of Paul (as well as the ramblings falsely attributed to him) above those of Jesus Himself.

They are OTPaulians, not Christians.


Hmm...missed this earlier. Sorry 'bout that.

And I totally agree, but to be equally fair, that is the (albeit overly simplified) version that the religion of Christianity teaches. It may not be accurate given what Jesus intended, but that's kind of irrelevant at this point.

There is no "religion of Christianity," Robin. Christianity is divided into many sects. Kevin just represents one of the most profoundly perverted ones.

He's one of the Pharisees that Jesus railed against.

  
dvunkannon



Posts: 1377
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2011,11:18   

Quote (kevinmillerxi @ Mar. 25 2011,01:52)
My thought process: If what we refer to as reason is nothing but the product of chance + necessity, then the outcome of our reasoning process couldn't be anything more than the same--a product of chance plus necessity. Therefore, the things we refer to as thoughts and arguments are of no more consequence than than the process in our body that manufactures insulin. I'm not saying that's how I think. I just see it as the logical consequence of an atheistic point of view. Put another way: If chance + necessity are the only forces at work in the universe shaping life and everything else we see around us (another way of saying random mutation plus natural selection), you can't sneak anything else in and pretend that the thoughts in your brain are a product of anything that would give them significance beyond what you ascribe to them. So why give credence to them? Why feel passionately about them?

I guess my point is, I hear a lot of people espousing an atheistic point of view but very people actually living out the logical consequences of that point of view. Even Will Provine, who has done as good a job as any of following things through to their logical conclusions, does not seem to live according to his espoused worldview.

But I'm off topic. This thread is supposed to be about hell.

Substituting 'evolutionary' for atheist for a second...

Yes, the committed evolutionist realizes their reasoning faculties are not perfect. We suffer from optical illusions in one part of our nervous system and brain, we suffer other kinds of reasoning illusions and cognitive defects in other parts. So we don't rely on our own reasoning exclusively, we test it, ask others, etc. before proceeding. It is that simple.

And when reality doesn't abide by our previous ideas of reason, we have to abandon them and invent new ones. That is what makes quantum mechanics so hard, our intuitioins and reason are no longer valid at that scale.

--------------
Iím referring to evolution, not changes in allele frequencies. - Cornelius Hunter
Iím not an evolutionist, Iím a change in allele frequentist! - Nakashima

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3305
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2011,11:30   

Quote (JAM @ Mar. 25 2011,10:51)
Quote (Robin @ Mar. 25 2011,06:48)
Quote (JAM @ Mar. 24 2011,09:24)

 
Quote
 
Quote (khan @ Mar. 23 2011,19:39)
Quote (Robin @ Mar. 23 2011,16:50)
Of all the versions of hell out there that I've read about, the most baffling one to me is Christianity's. It has no point.

Think about the basics of the Christian version of hell for a moment:

1) Any "sin" (this term is a little vague in and of itself depending on the sect you listen to, but in general it means any act against God's proscribed rules) gets you into to hell regardless of the relative effect here on Earth. Kill 100 billion people and destroy 3/4 of the Earth or simply lust after your neighbor's wife and your in.

2) Once in, the "punishment" (again, what this is varies between sects, but in principle it involves fire and lots of it) and your soul's torment from it is eternal. Like 1 above, it doesn't matter what "sin" you committed, all receive the same treatment and it's forever.

3) The only redemption is submission to the God demands/rules (and repentance for your "sinful" behavior) before one ever gets there; there's no option to repent once there.

4) There's no rehabilitation in hell. See 2 and 3 above.

5) Once there, your torture is available to all the saints and blessed for their viewing pleasure (yep, there's schadenfreude in heaven apparently - see Isaiah 14 and 66 for instance. Revelations has some take on this as well).

Chew on that for a minute or so.

So what's the point? In this concept, you can live a good, honest life - help grandmas at swim class, give volunteer at soup kitchens, donate to cancer research, and help your neighbors and community - and burn for eternity simply because you look upon a girl at 15 and thought she was sexy. OTOH, you can be Hitler or Stalin and "find God" on your deathbed and repent your sins, and spend the rest of eternity eating bon-bons and sipping on Courvoisier †with Jesus while waving and whistling at the damned.

Yeeeaah...it just doesn't make any sense to me.

If it made sense, it wouldn't be religion.

Well, to be fair, none of that comes from the teachings of Jesus.

However, it makes infinite sense coming from those who were trying to build a church (i.e., amass political power).

It seems to me that the best avenue of attack is theological: to point out that those pushing this hellish vision are placing the Old Testament and the ramblings of Paul (as well as the ramblings falsely attributed to him) above those of Jesus Himself.

They are OTPaulians, not Christians.


Hmm...missed this earlier. Sorry 'bout that.

And I totally agree, but to be equally fair, that is the (albeit overly simplified) version that the religion of Christianity teaches. It may not be accurate given what Jesus intended, but that's kind of irrelevant at this point.

There is no "religion of Christianity," Robin. Christianity is divided into many sects. Kevin just represents one of the most profoundly perverted ones.

He's one of the Pharisees that Jesus railed against.

I think Robin is referring to the origins of Christianity rather the current practice.

Even in the Bible there is a significant difference in what has come to be called Christianity and what Jesus called The Christ actually did, said, and the church he founded.

It's pretty obvious that Jesus' Christianity no longer exists.  If you want to be exact, it should be called Jewish Christianity.  That's what it was, a Christian message laid on a Jewish culture and tradition.

What we call 'Christianity' comes almost directly from Paul.  In the letters that we can attribute to Paul, there seems to be some complaint and fighting between him and the stewards of Jesus' church (James, brother of Jesus, and Peter).  In most cases, the people Paul is exorting his believers to ignore are James, Peter, and their disciples.

Really, the religions all categorically called Christianity, should be called Paulism.

My personal belief, with no basis in reality other than I think would have been politically prudent, is that a disciple of Paul wrote the Gospel according to John, for the specific purpose of having a gospel that could be used outside of Jewish tradition and supported Paul's own belief system instead of the 'traditional' belief systems.

--------------
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Robin



Posts: 1430
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2011,12:03   

[quote=OgreMkV,Mar. 25 2011,10:22][/quote]
Quote
Your God come to you and says, "From henceforth, I require that all my worshippers eat one baby a month or they will go to Hell."

You either
a) say "Pass the Ketchup" in which case you are a evil, evil man.


Technically, if he says, "pass the ketchup", he's not being evil since by his definition (I'm sure) his god sets the rules on morality - if he's being consistent that is. He'd certainly be considered a horrible reprobate by our society's standards, but then he really shouldn't care about such things - again if he's being consistent.

Quote
So, how can atheists be moral? †Because we are smart enough to know what is acceptable in our culture.

That is why we don't need your Hell. †Because we act morally and ethically because we want to, not because we are forced to.


Yep. To elaborate on this, many psychologists and counselors note that the people we label as "good", "ethical", "moral", etc appear to have a greater ability to recognize how others will react to the "good" people's behavior/actions and are better able to plan ahead for those reactions. It seems that "good" people tend to desire other people to react favorably towards them, so they choose actions that have the greatest chance of garnering a favorable response.

Pretty straight forward If-Then social understanding if you think about it.

--------------
we IDists rule in design for the flagellum and cilium largely because they do look designed. †Bilbo

The only reason you reject Thor is because, like a cushion, you bear the imprint of the biggest arse that sat on you. Louis

  
Robin



Posts: 1430
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2011,12:10   

Quote (JAM @ Mar. 25 2011,10:51)
Quote

Hmm...missed this earlier. Sorry 'bout that.

And I totally agree, but to be equally fair, that is the (albeit overly simplified) version that the religion of Christianity teaches. It may not be accurate given what Jesus intended, but that's kind of irrelevant at this point.

There is no "religion of Christianity," Robin. Christianity is divided into many sects. Kevin just represents one of the most profoundly perverted ones.

He's one of the Pharisees that Jesus railed against.


Yes...I was being sloppy there. If we're being precise and all, then what I meant to say was that the majority of Christian churches hold to the Paulian version of hell that I oversimplified. I agree that some Christians recognize that Paul's version is not, however, what the bible fully teachers and thus have a more broad - and usually metaphorical - understanding of the concept.

--------------
we IDists rule in design for the flagellum and cilium largely because they do look designed. †Bilbo

The only reason you reject Thor is because, like a cushion, you bear the imprint of the biggest arse that sat on you. Louis

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2011,12:11   

Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Mar. 25 2011,14:54)
Quote (Richardthughes @ Mar. 25 2011,09:40)
If you believe in Hell
And then have children
You are a monster.

absofuckinglutely

add "and oppose abortion*"

* and if you think that aborted fetuses go to hell, you worship a monster

Wait! I thought "God" sent unbaptised babies and aborted foetuses to Heck, which is like Hell but not as nasty. When he does this he is operating in his official capacity as "Gosh". So Gosh darns babies to Heck, whereas God damns sinners to Hell.*

Have I got this wrong?

Also, why can't I own a Welshman (not that I'd want to) and when is appropriate to ask a woman if she is menstruating in a church? These are important, serious questions. {Serious Face}

Louis

*But he loves you! {Two thumbs up + Cheesy grin}

Edited to add (because I can): I will be bringing in my favourite expletive of the year should Kevvo act the tit any further. That expletive is "Dead Jew on a stick!". Just so y'alls is forewarned.

--------------
Bye.

  
Robin



Posts: 1430
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2011,12:18   

Quote (OgreMkV @ Mar. 25 2011,11:30)

Quote
I think Robin is referring to the origins of Christianity rather the current practice.


Thanks Ogre and nice summary. To be fair though, JAM's point is well-taken. I was being sloppy in that my overly simplified summary of Christian hell represents what most Christian institutions teach and what most sects hold to, if only in a vague way.

But there is no "religion of Christian" and in some respects, there never was, so I was really incorrect in phrasing it that way. The Christian groups that sprang up in the first and second centuries were VERY diverse and many got out shouted or simply destroyed as heretical.

--------------
we IDists rule in design for the flagellum and cilium largely because they do look designed. †Bilbo

The only reason you reject Thor is because, like a cushion, you bear the imprint of the biggest arse that sat on you. Louis

  
JAM



Posts: 503
Joined: July 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2011,14:28   

Quote (OgreMkV @ Mar. 25 2011,10:30)

Really, the religions all categorically called Christianity, should be called Paulism.

Exactly.

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4362
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2011,15:14   

Should we start a new thread..."Where's Kevin?"

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Henry J



Posts: 4068
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2011,15:28   

Maybe he's at home alone?

  
Kristine



Posts: 3037
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2011,18:32   

Quote (kevinmillerxi @ Mar. 24 2011,13:38)
As far as this argument goes:
 
Quote
To me, something like The God Delusion †is a really good challenge to think through what I believe in and why do I believe it, and ask myself the big questions. Essentially, if Dawkins is right, the very tool he used to form his argument, which is reason, we have absolutely no reason to trust the outcome of. So his argument has destroyed the tool he used to create the argument. So itís nonsensical.
I've heard plenty of you mock it, but no one refute it.

Refute what? It doesn't even make sense.

--------------
Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
Kristine



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Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2011,18:33   

P.S. I have been busy and have not waded through all of these pages yet.

--------------
Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
khan



Posts: 1482
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2011,18:41   

Quote (Kristine @ Mar. 25 2011,19:32)
Quote (kevinmillerxi @ Mar. 24 2011,13:38)
As far as this argument goes:
Quote
To me, something like The God Delusion †is a really good challenge to think through what I believe in and why do I believe it, and ask myself the big questions. Essentially, if Dawkins is right, the very tool he used to form his argument, which is reason, we have absolutely no reason to trust the outcome of. So his argument has destroyed the tool he used to create the argument. So itís nonsensical.
I've heard plenty of you mock it, but no one refute it.

Refute what? It doesn't even make sense.

Something about refuting the Tooth Fairy and not using birth control...whatever.

--------------
"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

  
Kristine



Posts: 3037
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2011,18:46   

Quote (kevinmillerxi @ Mar. 25 2011,00:52)
My thought process: If what we refer to as reason is nothing but the product of chance + necessity, then the outcome of our reasoning process couldn't be anything more than the same--a product of chance plus necessity. Therefore, the things we refer to as thoughts and arguments are of no more consequence than than the process in our body that manufactures insulin. I'm not saying that's how I think. I just see it as the logical consequence of an atheistic point of view. Put another way: If chance + necessity are the only forces at work in the universe shaping life and everything else we see around us (another way of saying random mutation plus natural selection), you can't sneak anything else in and pretend that the thoughts in your brain are a product of anything that would give them significance beyond what you ascribe to them. So why give credence to them? Why feel passionately about them?

I guess my point is, I hear a lot of people espousing an atheistic point of view but very people actually living out the logical consequences of that point of view. Even Will Provine, who has done as good a job as any of following things through to their logical conclusions, does not seem to live according to his espoused worldview.

But I'm off topic. This thread is supposed to be about hell.

So, in other words, yellow + blue pigment does not equal green?

I refute it thus: the evidence shows otherwise.

You're sitting around navel-gazing.

Learn some facts.

--------------
Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
khan



Posts: 1482
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2011,18:51   

Quote (Kristine @ Mar. 25 2011,19:46)
Quote (kevinmillerxi @ Mar. 25 2011,00:52)
My thought process: If what we refer to as reason is nothing but the product of chance + necessity, then the outcome of our reasoning process couldn't be anything more than the same--a product of chance plus necessity. Therefore, the things we refer to as thoughts and arguments are of no more consequence than than the process in our body that manufactures insulin. I'm not saying that's how I think. I just see it as the logical consequence of an atheistic point of view. Put another way: If chance + necessity are the only forces at work in the universe shaping life and everything else we see around us (another way of saying random mutation plus natural selection), you can't sneak anything else in and pretend that the thoughts in your brain are a product of anything that would give them significance beyond what you ascribe to them. So why give credence to them? Why feel passionately about them?

I guess my point is, I hear a lot of people espousing an atheistic point of view but very people actually living out the logical consequences of that point of view. Even Will Provine, who has done as good a job as any of following things through to their logical conclusions, does not seem to live according to his espoused worldview.

But I'm off topic. This thread is supposed to be about hell.

So, in other words, yellow + blue pigment does not equal green?

I refute it thus: the evidence shows otherwise.

You're sitting around navel-gazing.

Learn some facts.

Facts would fuck with his total world view.

--------------
"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2011,20:02   

Quote (khan @ Mar. 26 2011,00:51)
Quote (Kristine @ Mar. 25 2011,19:46)
Quote (kevinmillerxi @ Mar. 25 2011,00:52)
My thought process: If what we refer to as reason is nothing but the product of chance + necessity, then the outcome of our reasoning process couldn't be anything more than the same--a product of chance plus necessity. Therefore, the things we refer to as thoughts and arguments are of no more consequence than than the process in our body that manufactures insulin. I'm not saying that's how I think. I just see it as the logical consequence of an atheistic point of view. Put another way: If chance + necessity are the only forces at work in the universe shaping life and everything else we see around us (another way of saying random mutation plus natural selection), you can't sneak anything else in and pretend that the thoughts in your brain are a product of anything that would give them significance beyond what you ascribe to them. So why give credence to them? Why feel passionately about them?

I guess my point is, I hear a lot of people espousing an atheistic point of view but very people actually living out the logical consequences of that point of view. Even Will Provine, who has done as good a job as any of following things through to their logical conclusions, does not seem to live according to his espoused worldview.

But I'm off topic. This thread is supposed to be about hell.

So, in other words, yellow + blue pigment does not equal green?

I refute it thus: the evidence shows otherwise.

You're sitting around navel-gazing.

Learn some facts.

Facts would fuck with his total world view.

So would learning.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3305
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2011,20:57   

He's probably thinking the same thing that the colonial marines were wondering when they got to the colonists.

"What the fuck have I gotten into and why the fuck did I voluntarily come here?"

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http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
Woodbine



Posts: 782
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2011,21:08   

Kevin,

Hell is where other people go when they die. Jews, Atheists, Muslims, Homos. Especially Homos.

  
Henry J



Posts: 4068
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2011,21:44   

Quote
So, in other words, yellow + blue pigment does not equal green?

I refute it thus: the evidence shows otherwise.

You're sitting around navel-gazing.

Learn some facts.

He's observing lint?

  
lkeithlu



Posts: 321
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 26 2011,09:49   

I don't exactly feel qualified to wade into this morass, but I will do so anyway: A question for Kevin:

Why does this film single out Hell?
From my perspective, you can't separate hell from all the other things that religion expects you to believe. Why only hell? As a non-believer, I lump it in with everything else supernatural: angels, heaven, gods, miracles, demons, devils, possession, prayer.
From a evolutionary perspective (ironically) religion makes perfect sense. As intelligence and self awareness grew, so did questions about how the world came to be and what happens after death. Humans have a natural tendency to perceive the world this way, and what they are taught by their society reinforces it. People who subscribe to the cultural beliefs are more successful in passing on their genes than those who don't.

At some level, I have to agree with the other posters here regarding your motives. Expelled was an awful and dishonest film, and gullible people accepted it as fact. As an educator, I see the country slipping more and more into a trend of rejecting sound science; my state is one of many who have pending legislation to allow the most recent manifestation of creationist interference ("academic freedom to teach weaknesses in evolution") Your film, I'm sad to say, is used as support for these efforts, making my job all the harder.

  
Schroedinger's Dog



Posts: 1691
Joined: Jan. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 26 2011,11:29   

Just a quick thought on Hell.

It promises eternal suffering (how very christian). But, in my own experience, with time you can get used to all types of pain (I've been a martyr to toothache and backache for a long time, but don't even feel anything anymore). So, how does this work? Exponantial increase in pain levels until the end of eternity? (And believe you me, in the wise words of Bad Religion: "Eternity, my friend, is a long fucking time"). Because if that's how it works, god's little torturous helpers would have to at least start by giving me a blowjob as a form of torture before they can even reach the point when pain becomes just a tiny nuisance...

--------------
"Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G

"I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis

"The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

   
OgreMkV



Posts: 3305
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 26 2011,14:09   

Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Mar. 26 2011,11:29)
Just a quick thought on Hell.

It promises eternal suffering (how very christian). But, in my own experience, with time you can get used to all types of pain (I've been a martyr to toothache and backache for a long time, but don't even feel anything anymore). So, how does this work? Exponantial increase in pain levels until the end of eternity? (And believe you me, in the wise words of Bad Religion: "Eternity, my friend, is a long fucking time"). Because if that's how it works, god's little torturous helpers would have to at least start by giving me a blowjob as a form of torture before they can even reach the point when pain becomes just a tiny nuisance...

Read "Surface Detail" by Ian Banks.  It's a way better description of hell than what they whiny little Christians call hell.

Of course, we've had 2000 years to refine our ideas of hell from when Paul or his disciples (I suspect) wrote revelation.

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Schroedinger's Dog



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Joined: Jan. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 26 2011,15:01   

Thanks for the recommandation Ogre. I've heard good things about that book and will order it.

I was just musing. What would be the reaction of Kev' and friends if Jesus Himself appeared to them and said something along the lines of "stop believing in me, God and the Bible right now, under pain of eternal punishment and suffering".

I'd like to be a fly on those walls...

--------------
"Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G

"I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis

"The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

   
Kristine



Posts: 3037
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 26 2011,18:00   

Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Mar. 26 2011,15:01)
Thanks for the recommandation Ogre. I've heard good things about that book and will order it.

I was just musing. What would be the reaction of Kev' and friends if Jesus Himself appeared to them and said something along the lines of "stop believing in me, God and the Bible right now, under pain of eternal punishment and suffering".

I'd like to be a fly on those walls...

I have asked believers how they know that, just hypothetically understand, the Bible was not written by Satan to confuse them. I have yet to receive an answer other than, "But it wasn't!"

I mean, how can they know? They weren't there when it was written, were they? †;)

Edited by Kristine on Mar. 26 2011,18:01

--------------
Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

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"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
MichaelJ



Posts: 455
Joined: June 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 27 2011,18:31   

If he was at all honest he would start with the Bible and find that the Christian view of Satan, devils and Hell does not exist in the Bible and is largely an invention of the Dark Age.

He also needs to deal with the fact that the various Christian sects have a very different view of how to avoid going to hell.

Lastly he needs to deal with the fact that according to mainstream Christianity a lot of people who don't deserve it are going to end up in Hell.

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3305
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 27 2011,18:55   

Quote (MichaelJ @ Mar. 27 2011,18:31)
If he was at all honest he would start with the Bible and find that the Christian view of Satan, devils and Hell does not exist in the Bible and is largely an invention of the Dark Age.

He also needs to deal with the fact that the various Christian sects have a very different view of how to avoid going to hell.

Lastly he needs to deal with the fact that according to mainstream Christianity a lot of people who don't deserve it are going to end up in Hell.

And that a lot of people who don't deserve it are going to end up in heaven.

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
Cubist



Posts: 349
Joined: Oct. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 27 2011,19:57   

Quote (MichaelJ @ Mar. 27 2011,18:31)
Lastly he needs to deal with the fact that according to mainstream Christianity a lot of people who don't deserve it are going to end up in Hell.

I beg to differ: According to mainstream Christianity, everyone deserves to end up in Hell, because everyone is maximally disgusting and sinful and evil JUST BECAUSE. So sayeth the lovely, life-affirming doctrine of Original Sin, don't'cha know.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 28 2011,04:25   

Quote (Cubist @ Mar. 28 2011,01:57)
Quote (MichaelJ @ Mar. 27 2011,18:31)
Lastly he needs to deal with the fact that according to mainstream Christianity a lot of people who don't deserve it are going to end up in Hell.

I beg to differ: According to mainstream Christianity, everyone deserves to end up in Hell, because everyone is maximally disgusting and sinful and evil JUST BECAUSE. So sayeth the lovely, life-affirming doctrine of Original Sin, don't'cha know.

I find it extremely telling that original sin derived from curiosity and the desire for knowledge. Well, if you believe one version of the fairy tales that is.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
k.e..



Posts: 2894
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 28 2011,04:44   

Quote (Louis @ Mar. 28 2011,12:25)
Quote (Cubist @ Mar. 28 2011,01:57)
Quote (MichaelJ @ Mar. 27 2011,18:31)
Lastly he needs to deal with the fact that according to mainstream Christianity a lot of people who don't deserve it are going to end up in Hell.

I beg to differ: According to mainstream Christianity, everyone deserves to end up in Hell, because everyone is maximally disgusting and sinful and evil JUST BECAUSE. So sayeth the lovely, life-affirming doctrine of Original Sin, don't'cha know.

I find it extremely telling that original sin derived from curiosity and the desire for knowledge. Well, if you believe one version of the fairy tales that is.

Louis

That's funny I thought OS was something to do with a talking snake (with at least two legs) and a woman.

Snakes came out the winners there didn't they when he condemed all snake kind to crawl on their bellies? Wait 'till the big G finds out that one in the garden of Eden didn't have legs to start with*.

*NOT SMART ARSE EVO COMMENTS ON SNAKE EVOLUTION PLEASE I'M TALKING ABOUT A MYTH.

--------------
"I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his clown DaveTard suit" dogdidit
"Abbie Smith (ERV) who's got to be the most obnoxious arrogant snot I've ever seen except for when I look in a mirror" DAVE TARD
"ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus

  
fnxtr



Posts: 2123
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 28 2011,10:18   

Quote (Louis @ Mar. 28 2011,02:25)
Quote (Cubist @ Mar. 28 2011,01:57)
 
Quote (MichaelJ @ Mar. 27 2011,18:31)
Lastly he needs to deal with the fact that according to mainstream Christianity a lot of people who don't deserve it are going to end up in Hell.

I beg to differ: According to mainstream Christianity, everyone deserves to end up in Hell, because everyone is maximally disgusting and sinful and evil JUST BECAUSE. So sayeth the lovely, life-affirming doctrine of Original Sin, don't'cha know.

I find it extremely telling that original sin derived from curiosity and the desire for knowledge. Well, if you believe one version of the fairy tales that is.

Louis

Somehow I got the impression that "orginal sin" was actually, you know, doin' it.

At least all the bluestocking Bible-thumpers I was exposed to seemed to think so.

--------------
"But it's disturbing to think someone actually thinks creationism -- having put it's hand on the hot stove every day for the last 400 years -- will get a different result tomorrow." -- midwifetoad

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 28 2011,10:29   

Quote (fnxtr @ Mar. 28 2011,16:18)
Quote (Louis @ Mar. 28 2011,02:25)
 
Quote (Cubist @ Mar. 28 2011,01:57)
Quote (MichaelJ @ Mar. 27 2011,18:31)
Lastly he needs to deal with the fact that according to mainstream Christianity a lot of people who don't deserve it are going to end up in Hell.

I beg to differ: According to mainstream Christianity, everyone deserves to end up in Hell, because everyone is maximally disgusting and sinful and evil JUST BECAUSE. So sayeth the lovely, life-affirming doctrine of Original Sin, don't'cha know.

I find it extremely telling that original sin derived from curiosity and the desire for knowledge. Well, if you believe one version of the fairy tales that is.

Louis

Somehow I got the impression that "orginal sin" was actually, you know, doin' it.

At least all the bluestocking Bible-thumpers I was exposed to seemed to think so.

So shagging and figuring out stuff about the universe = Teh Bad?

I knew I didn't like that religion for a good reason.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3305
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 28 2011,10:29   

Quote (fnxtr @ Mar. 28 2011,10:18)
Quote (Louis @ Mar. 28 2011,02:25)
 
Quote (Cubist @ Mar. 28 2011,01:57)
Quote (MichaelJ @ Mar. 27 2011,18:31)
Lastly he needs to deal with the fact that according to mainstream Christianity a lot of people who don't deserve it are going to end up in Hell.

I beg to differ: According to mainstream Christianity, everyone deserves to end up in Hell, because everyone is maximally disgusting and sinful and evil JUST BECAUSE. So sayeth the lovely, life-affirming doctrine of Original Sin, don't'cha know.

I find it extremely telling that original sin derived from curiosity and the desire for knowledge. Well, if you believe one version of the fairy tales that is.

Louis

Somehow I got the impression that "orginal sin" was actually, you know, doin' it.

At least all the bluestocking Bible-thumpers I was exposed to seemed to think so.

That puts a disturbing interpretation on 'born in sin'.

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
Henry J



Posts: 4068
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 28 2011,10:45   

Quote (Cubist @ Mar. 27 2011,18:57)
Quote (MichaelJ @ Mar. 27 2011,18:31)
Lastly he needs to deal with the fact that according to mainstream Christianity a lot of people who don't deserve it are going to end up in Hell.

I beg to differ: According to mainstream Christianity, everyone deserves to end up in Hell, because everyone is maximally disgusting and sinful and evil JUST BECAUSE. So sayeth the lovely, life-affirming doctrine of Original Sin, don't'cha know.

Don't beg; it isn't dignified.  :p

  
Henry J



Posts: 4068
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 28 2011,10:47   

Quote
So shagging and figuring out stuff about the universe = Teh Bad?

I knew I didn't like that religion for a good reason.

Louis

Yeah; things like that could lead to dancing!

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4362
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 28 2011,11:05   

And I ask once again, where in the hell is Kevin?

Have we been so mean to him that he has gone to his own little private hell?  Is he sulking?  Rejoicing in his suffering?

We Question - You Decide!

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 28 2011,12:45   

Quote (Henry J @ Mar. 28 2011,16:47)
Quote
So shagging and figuring out stuff about the universe = Teh Bad?

I knew I didn't like that religion for a good reason.

Louis

Yeah; things like that could lead to dancing!

{Faints from shock}

--------------
Bye.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 28 2011,13:52   

Quote (J-Dog @ Mar. 28 2011,17:05)
And I ask once again, where in the hell is Kevin?

Have we been so mean to him that he has gone to his own little private hell? †Is he sulking? †Rejoicing in his suffering?

We Question - You Decide!

Darling,

You know I love you, but really, does anyone care where Kevin is? He's done what he came for, to stir up some noise about some shite movie he's involved with, just like the pointless propagandist he is. He is intellectually negligible and utterly forgettable.

He's not interested in engaging, he's interested in free advertising. He hopes a lurker/troll/reader of the site will think to themselves "I'll go and see that movie" for whatever reason.

Personally speaking, he's just another chew toy. As disposable as any of the others. He can stay gone for all I care. If he comes back, I shall insult him some more! Hurrah!

(His mother was a hamster and his father smelt of elderberries)

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4362
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 28 2011,16:36   

Louis:

SHHHH! Ixnay on the Hewcay Oytay!

I was trying to get him to respond, so we could poke the stick at him some more...

but I think we all agree that his mother was a hamster and his father smelt of elderberries.  

And I have to say that the UD vs. mathgrrl thread is much more amusing right now anyway.

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
MichaelJ



Posts: 455
Joined: June 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 28 2011,16:42   

Quote (Cubist @ Mar. 28 2011,10:57)
Quote (MichaelJ @ Mar. 27 2011,18:31)
Lastly he needs to deal with the fact that according to mainstream Christianity a lot of people who don't deserve it are going to end up in Hell.

I beg to differ: According to mainstream Christianity, everyone deserves to end up in Hell, because everyone is maximally disgusting and sinful and evil JUST BECAUSE. So sayeth the lovely, life-affirming doctrine of Original Sin, don't'cha know.

I think that these guys would say that they deserve hell because they had the chance to join the one true version of Christianity ™.

But how about a kid born on the Pakistan/Afganistan border? Is it his fault that he never became a Christian?

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1005
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 28 2011,17:22   

Ironic, isn't it, that a guy making a film about Hell is actually going to Hell, himself, because of his lifetime of un-repented bad behavior.

Just on "bearing false witness" alone he's totally doomed.  Of course, the immoral douchbag is counting on a deathbed recant, but that's not going to cut it for the King of Kings, is it?

Kev-0 is a bad person, dishonest to the core and he knows it.    Kev-0 knows he deliberately lied in Expelled and he comes here thinking that we'll forgive him for his sins and that's irony upon irony.

Number one, we know you're a douchbag, Kev-0, and Number two we don't care.  There is no Number three.  You are Number 6.

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5378
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 28 2011,18:00   

Quote (Louis @ Mar. 28 2011,05:25)
I find it extremely telling that original sin derived from curiosity and the desire for knowledge.

This.

Exactly this.

--------------
Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

Work-friendly photography
NSFW photography

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5378
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 28 2011,18:04   

Quote (J-Dog @ Mar. 28 2011,17:36)
And I have to say that the UD vs. mathgrrl thread is much more amusing right now anyway.

No sir. It's the Mathgrrl vs. UD thread. It's the home team that's getting its collective ass handed to it.

...and you *know* it's killing those misogynist fuckers that it's one lone *grrl* that has them bent over the rail and is giving them internal splinters.

--------------
Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

Work-friendly photography
NSFW photography

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5378
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 28 2011,18:11   

Quote (MichaelJ @ Mar. 28 2011,17:42)
Quote (Cubist @ Mar. 28 2011,10:57)
 
Quote (MichaelJ @ Mar. 27 2011,18:31)
Lastly he needs to deal with the fact that according to mainstream Christianity a lot of people who don't deserve it are going to end up in Hell.

I beg to differ: According to mainstream Christianity, everyone deserves to end up in Hell, because everyone is maximally disgusting and sinful and evil JUST BECAUSE. So sayeth the lovely, life-affirming doctrine of Original Sin, don't'cha know.

I think that these guys would say that they deserve hell because they had the chance to join the one true version of Christianity ô.

But how about a kid born on the Pakistan/Afganistan border? Is it his fault that he never became a Christian?

Quote
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. ~ John 14:6


IOW, fuck that kid.

--------------
Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

Work-friendly photography
NSFW photography

   
khan



Posts: 1482
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 28 2011,18:34   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Mar. 28 2011,19:04)
Quote (J-Dog @ Mar. 28 2011,17:36)
And I have to say that the UD vs. mathgrrl thread is much more amusing right now anyway.

No sir. It's the Mathgrrl vs. UD thread. It's the home team that's getting its collective ass handed to it.

...and you *know* it's killing those misogynist fuckers that it's one lone *grrl* that has them bent over the rail and is giving them internal splinters.

Yeah *grrl*

--------------
"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

  
kevinmillerxi



Posts: 92
Joined: Feb. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 12 2011,23:43   

Thought I'd let you folks know we just wrapped principal photography on "Hellbound?" You can read all about it here.

You may also want to check out my other two docs that are currently in release: spOILed and Sex+Money.

  
Cubist



Posts: 349
Joined: Oct. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2011,01:58   

Mr. Miller, you are a reprehensible, deceitful, unrepentant disgrace to any God you may think you worship. You may not recognize the noisome stench of lies and hypocracy that still clings to you from your work on that abhorrent piece of mendacious propaganda called Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed, but other people are most assuredly not so handicapped.
There's no point in telling you to go to Hell, Mr. Miller, because your own actions have bought you your reservation, and your isotopically-pure lack of repentance has sealed your post-mortem fate. Enjoy your stay in the lake of fire, you Commandment-breaking scum in human form.

  
Wolfhound



Posts: 468
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2011,02:32   

Quote (kevinmillerxi @ Nov. 13 2011,00:43)
Thought I'd let you folks know we just wrapped principal photography on "Hellbound?" You can read all about it here.

You may also want to check out my other two docs that are currently in release: spOILed and Sex+Money.

I'm certain that they will prove to be just as critically and commercially successful as your previous effort.

*points and laughs*

--------------
I've found my personality to be an effective form of birth control.

  
Schroedinger's Dog



Posts: 1691
Joined: Jan. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2011,02:48   

I find it nice that we have our own (very, very nauseating) version of IMDB, with director's inputs and all.

I mean, Kevin's work is so sterling, I just so can't wait to get my hands on his new stuff. No, seriously, I can't wait, I have other, more important things to do. Like watching the paint flake off of my toilet wall...

Reminds me, I never checked the IMDB Expelled trivia. Quick Robin, to the URL bar!!!

--------------
"Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G

"I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis

"The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

   
Schroedinger's Dog



Posts: 1691
Joined: Jan. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2011,02:55   

Well, thank you, genial sidekick, that trivia was a good condensť of Expelled Exposed. At least the ride was nice, thanks for getting the top off the Batmobile. I needed the fresh air...

--------------
"Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G

"I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis

"The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

   
OgreMkV



Posts: 3305
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2011,07:43   

Is this one filled with lies too or is it pure fantasy like your last one?

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4491
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2011,09:28   

IMDB has a "Goofs" page for "Expelled" that is currently empty. Come on, there are enough errors in the thing to write an errata that would kill a forest to print.

ETA: From the "Goofs" submission guidelines:

Quote

A goof is an unintentional error in the film making process that in some way breaks the spell and takes us momentarily outside the world created by that movie.


OK, now I see why the Goofs page is empty: propaganda is intentional promulgation of falsehood and error.

Edited by Wesley R. Elsberry on Nov. 13 2011,09:31

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4241
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2011,09:48   

Quote (Cubist @ Nov. 13 2011,02:58)
Mr. Miller, you are a reprehensible, deceitful, unrepentant disgrace to any God you may think you worship. You may not recognize the noisome stench of lies and hypocracy that still clings to you from your work on that abhorrent piece of mendacious propaganda called Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed, but other people are most assuredly not so handicapped.
There's no point in telling you to go to Hell, Mr. Miller, because your own actions have bought you your reservation, and your isotopically-pure lack of repentance has sealed your post-mortem fate. Enjoy your stay in the lake of fire, you Commandment-breaking scum in human form.

Wow. I'm gonna have that framed.

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
Tracy P. Hamilton



Posts: 1238
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2011,10:04   

Quote (kevinmillerxi @ Nov. 12 2011,23:43)
Thought I'd let you folks know we just wrapped principal photography on "Hellbound?" You can read all about it here.

You may also want to check out my other two docs that are currently in release: spOILed and Sex+Money.

You should rename "Hellbound" to "DVDbound".

--------------
"Following what I just wrote about fitness, youíre taking refuge in what we see in the world." †PaV

"The simple equation F = MA leads to the concept of four-dimensional space." GilDodgen

"We have no brain, I don't, for thinking." Robert Byers

  
Kristine



Posts: 3037
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 14 2011,13:13   

*Possible spoiler alert*

I am sure that Kevin's film concludes that Hell is separation from God, a state of being, not a literal place - which is what I was taught, after all. Not everyone learns "Dante's hell." (Although I think they used it on us kids when my age was in the single digits.)

It's interesting that believers do not also refer to the Apocalypse as a state of being, then. Or creation - is not everything being destroyed and created all the time in a cosmos of change?

I think the concept of change is key - liberal Christians who accept evolution do so because they accept a universe of death and change, which IMHO really is much closer to animism/pantheism than the Lawgiver idea (who is unchanging because death and change are punishments).

One could also argue that any dungeon (hell) utilized even by the most benevolent deity represents that deity's unconscious, peopled with desires, urges, and actions that the deity denies (judges). I have always argued that Edgar Allan Poe came up with the idea of the unconscious before Freud, but one could also credit more ancient writers of this. Hell represents our unconscious and our dark side, which we fear. Unfortunately, cultivating this fear via religion does little to deter one from acting immorally, if one is so inclined, and uselessly and destructively torments those whose default setting is not be so inclined.

--------------
Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3305
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 14 2011,15:44   

Quote (Kristine @ Nov. 14 2011,13:13)
*Possible spoiler alert*

I am sure that Kevin's film concludes that Hell is separation from God, a state of being, not a literal place - which is what I was taught, after all. Not everyone learns "Dante's hell." (Although I think they used it on us kids when my age was in the single digits.)

It's interesting that believers do not also refer to the Apocalypse as a state of being, then. Or creation - is not everything being destroyed and created all the time in a cosmos of change?

I think the concept of change is key - liberal Christians who accept evolution do so because they accept a universe of death and change, which IMHO really is much closer to animism/pantheism than the Lawgiver idea (who is unchanging because death and change are punishments).

One could also argue that any dungeon (hell) utilized even by the most benevolent deity represents that deity's unconscious, peopled with desires, urges, and actions that the deity denies (judges). I have always argued that Edgar Allan Poe came up with the idea of the unconscious before Freud, but one could also credit more ancient writers of this. Hell represents our unconscious and our dark side, which we fear. Unfortunately, cultivating this fear via religion does little to deter one from acting immorally, if one is so inclined, and uselessly and destructively torments those whose default setting is not be so inclined.

Has anyone else read the latest Ian Banks?  Hell is examined very closely and is rather interesting.

Of course, the Christians really WANT hell to be a place of eternal torture and pain and suffering so that they can A) scare the non-believers into believing and B) thumb their noses and think "He'll suffer forever in hell" of someone that they don't like.

If hell is nothing more than the absence of God... well, sounds like heaven to me.  Of course, heaven (eternally singing the praises of the sociopathic monster that is the Judeo-Christian God) always sounded like hell to me... and it would be for those poor souls stuck next to me in the chorus.

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
Amadan



Posts: 1245
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 14 2011,17:07   

Quote (Kristine @ Nov. 14 2011,19:13)
I have always argued that Edgar Allan Poe came up with the idea of the unconscious before Freud, ...

Or how about Hieronymus Bosch?

--------------
"People are always looking for natural selection to generate random mutations" - Densye  4-4-2011
JoeG BTW dumbass- some variations help ensure reproductive fitness so they cannot be random wrt it.

   
fnxtr



Posts: 2123
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 14 2011,17:12   

Quote (Amadan @ Nov. 14 2011,15:07)
Quote (Kristine @ Nov. 14 2011,19:13)
I have always argued that Edgar Allan Poe came up with the idea of the unconscious before Freud, ...

Or how about Hieronymus Bosch?

Poe came up with Bosch before Freud did? Or Poe came up with Bosch before he came up with Freud? I'm all confused now.

--------------
"But it's disturbing to think someone actually thinks creationism -- having put it's hand on the hot stove every day for the last 400 years -- will get a different result tomorrow." -- midwifetoad

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4362
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 14 2011,17:33   

Hey Kev 11 - A TrueHell™ would be forced to read only UD, and only talk to yokels like You~

HTH

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Kristine



Posts: 3037
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 14 2011,19:55   

Quote (OgreMkV @ Nov. 14 2011,15:44)
 
Quote (Kristine @ Nov. 14 2011,13:13)
*Possible spoiler alert*

I am sure that Kevin's film concludes that Hell is separation from God, a state of being, not a literal place - which is what I was taught, after all. Not everyone learns "Dante's hell." (Although I think they used it on us kids when my age was in the single digits.)

It's interesting that believers do not also refer to the Apocalypse as a state of being, then. Or creation - is not everything being destroyed and created all the time in a cosmos of change?

I think the concept of change is key - liberal Christians who accept evolution do so because they accept a universe of death and change, which IMHO really is much closer to animism/pantheism than the Lawgiver idea (who is unchanging because death and change are punishments).

One could also argue that any dungeon (hell) utilized even by the most benevolent deity represents that deity's unconscious, peopled with desires, urges, and actions that the deity denies (judges). I have always argued that Edgar Allan Poe came up with the idea of the unconscious before Freud, but one could also credit more ancient writers of this. Hell represents our unconscious and our dark side, which we fear. Unfortunately, cultivating this fear via religion does little to deter one from acting immorally, if one is so inclined, and uselessly and destructively torments those whose default setting is not be so inclined.

Has anyone else read the latest Ian Banks? †Hell is examined very closely and is rather interesting.

Of course, the Christians really WANT hell to be a place of eternal torture and pain and suffering so that they can A) scare the non-believers into believing and B) thumb their noses and think "He'll suffer forever in hell" of someone that they don't like.

If hell is nothing more than the absence of God... well, sounds like heaven to me. †Of course, heaven (eternally singing the praises of the sociopathic monster that is the Judeo-Christian God) always sounded like hell to me... and it would be for those poor souls stuck next to me in the chorus.

Do you want to know the truth? Sometimes I think that being an atheist means that there is no separation from "God" at all.

Don't get me wrong, I'm talking about "God" on a metaphoric level. I don't "believe" in God. Truth to tell, I don't believe in anything - I try very hard not to have beliefs (preconceived ideas) at all.

Most of my life is lived in silence. In silence there is dance, love, pleasure, and love. Christianity talks too much - most religions talk too much. I don't believe in talk - it does not cook rice. I believe (if I believe in anything) in phenomena.

Hell scared me for a long time, even after I became an atheist at age nine. (Who the hell becomes an atheist at age nine? Especially if she was, and continued to be, a shining Bible study student?) It scared me so badly that I lay awake at night thinking about it. I remember thinking about it in the dark while staying over night at my cousins's house (the younger cousin who just died of cancer).

Hell scared me even into college, when I re-read all those Hal Lindsey books that were laying around the house. You should have seen my reaction to the film "Fanny and Alexander" - I was so terrified by the religious imp ;) -lications raised by that film that I literally trembled and cried in my ex's arms.

(He was also an atheist, and a preacher's son.)

Believe you me, I understand religious believers. I understand them more than they know.

But now I know about OCD, and that the "unforgivable sin" (which apparently is not taught to Catholics, according to Rev. Barky), which scares so many Protestants.

Do I still have nightmares of hell? OF COURSE I do! I did last night. But increasingly I have learned to put them in perspective.

"Hell" is my fear that I am not a good person - not in a legalistic sense (in either the secular legal or Christian) sense, but in the deep and human sense. In so fearing, I have come to see people that I do not agree with (esp. with regard to religion) as likewise deep and humane people. I have come to love them in a way that I do not understand.

I do understand. More than non-atheists think that I do. I have been through what has been called St. John of the Cross's pit of experience and survived.

Christianity was necessary - it was the logical outcome of paganism - but now we are at a transition point. People who are atheists, like me, who still struggle with religious fear are far ahead of those who were raised without religion, because there is a certain fear at the basis of existence.

I don't know how to put my finger on it exactly, but "hell" expresses our deepest fear, and thus our deepest humanity. There is something shallow about people who have never suffered deeply.

Christianity tells a deep truth about our fears of our own depravity. Unfortunately, it also tells a great lie about that same thing. Namely, that we are not as bad as we fear we may be.

I do think that Christianity was a necessary phase, but I wish it had been shorter, and less didactic. Christians who support ID talk of a "paradigm shift," but they do not want the BIG paradigm shift that is coming - which has to do with us forgiving ourselves of our sins, because they are human, and because they pale in comparison with the sins that we have committed in the name of "Christian morality."

Hell? I've been there. Everyone has been there. It is not a place, nor "separation from God." It is fear. And I have reached the point (even in my dreams) where I am no longer afraid.

What then?

--------------
Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
Henry J



Posts: 4068
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 15 2011,09:24   

Fear leads to hate.

Hate leads to the dark side.

(But then so does the end of DST.)

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 15 2011,10:42   

Quote (kevinmillerxi @ Nov. 13 2011,04:43)
Thought I'd let you folks know we just wrapped principal photography on "Hellbound?" You can read all about it here.

You may also want to check out my other two docs that are currently in release: spOILed and Sex+Money.

Didn't pay to see Expelled, won't pay to see these. Shill ineffectively elsewhere, Kevvo.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Kristine



Posts: 3037
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 17 2011,09:25   

Well, well, well, looky who we have here, Dr. Norman Geisler, who testified for "creation science" in McLean v. Arkansas. Atheism is Dead, eh? Well, I guess we are all in heaven, then, because we know where creation science went. :p

--------------
Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
kevinmillerxi



Posts: 92
Joined: Feb. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 27 2012,16:41   

Thought you guys may want to see some of our latest imagery for Hellbound?

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 10130
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 27 2012,17:29   

Yay! Christian torture porn!

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3305
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 27 2012,17:44   

Quote (kevinmillerxi @ Jan. 27 2012,16:41)
Thought you guys may want to see some of our latest imagery for Hellbound?

You thought?

Really?

And the best you could come up with is sending a link to a Noe-Christian Dominist film to a bunch of hardened skeptics?

Seriously?

I used to wonder how much dumber our society could get... I am no longer surprised by the results?

Here's a fun question, Kevin, who do you prefer in the GOP primaries?

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4241
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 27 2012,17:53   

Quote (kevinmillerxi @ Jan. 27 2012,17:41)
Thought you guys may want to see some of our latest imagery for Hellbound?

That is some juvenile shit, there.

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
Cubist



Posts: 349
Joined: Oct. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 27 2012,18:27   

Quote (kevinmillerxi @ Jan. 27 2012,16:41)
Thought you guys may want to see some of our latest imagery for Hellbound?

Speaking solely for myself, Mr. Miller, I have no interest in seeing any movie that you had anything to do with. By your own behavior, you have demonstrated yourself to be a goddamned liar-for-Jesus and a propagandist in whose mind 'truth' must always be subordinated to whatever ideology you happen to be whoring yourself out for at the time. The fact that the God you profess to worship has not smited you for your numerous violations of His Ninth Commandmentóexactly none of which violations you have seen fit to even acknowledge, let alone repent forómust be considered evidence that the God you profess to worship either does not exist, or else doesn't give a shit what sort of shenanigans us humans get up to in His name.
You, Mr. Miller, had better hope that the Bible is wrong about the post mortem fate God has reserved for false witnesses. Because if the Bible is right about that, you are going to burn in a lake of fire for all eternity.

  
Kattarina98



Posts: 1255
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 27 2012,19:30   

Quote (kevinmillerxi @ Jan. 27 2012,16:41)
Thought you guys may want to see some of our latest imagery for Hellbound?

This looks sooo Fifties - yawn!

--------------
Barry Arrington is a bitch.

  
MichaelJ



Posts: 455
Joined: June 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 30 2012,16:59   

I wonder why there is such a negative correlation between creativity and general talent and the kind of people that get attracted to fundamentalist religion. Take out his Atheist writings and Hitchens was still an amazing essayist, Dawkins with his popularisation of science, Stephen Fry! Colbert and Stewart aren't atheists but they accept reality. The list can go on.

Even at a local level, I have about 1000 clients on my list and without exception the creative and the clever are all left leaning.

Kevin is never going to be anything but a hack and an admitted liar. I don't know how anybody could live with themselves just being happy with mediocre

  
Henry J



Posts: 4068
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 30 2012,17:43   

How often do people who didn't grow up in one of those religions get attracted into one of them later in life?

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3305
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 30 2012,17:45   

Quote (MichaelJ @ Jan. 30 2012,16:59)
I wonder why there is such a negative correlation between creativity and general talent and the kind of people that get attracted to fundamentalist religion. Take out his Atheist writings and Hitchens was still an amazing essayist, Dawkins with his popularisation of science, Stephen Fry! Colbert and Stewart aren't atheists but they accept reality. The list can go on.

Even at a local level, I have about 1000 clients on my list and without exception the creative and the clever are all left leaning.

Kevin is never going to be anything but a hack and an admitted liar. I don't know how anybody could live with themselves just being happy with mediocre

In my experience, the ability to think is critical to creativity.  It's also critical to seeing and understanding reality, which means (in the US) the tendency to move away from the GOP.

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
Kristine



Posts: 3037
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 31 2012,15:07   

Quote (MichaelJ @ Jan. 30 2012,16:59)
I wonder why there is such a negative correlation between creativity and general talent and the kind of people that get attracted to fundamentalist religion. Take out his Atheist writings and Hitchens was still an amazing essayist, Dawkins with his popularisation of science, Stephen Fry! Colbert and Stewart aren't atheists but they accept reality. The list can go on.

Even at a local level, I have about 1000 clients on my list and without exception the creative and the clever are all left leaning.

Kevin is never going to be anything but a hack and an admitted liar. I don't know how anybody could live with themselves just being happy with mediocre

It has to do with the difference between rules, and a rule-based or authoritarian mentality, and principles, which are guided by open-ended inquiry.

Look up "Maslow's hierarchy of needs." However, be aware of the criticisms of this system, but his is a helpful illustration.

Also, research seems to indicate that "left-wingers" more ably tolerate ambiguity. Right-wing versus left-wing brains. "Right-wingers" tend to be more imitative than innovative. Of course, this is a generalization, and I am always cautious when reading research results reported in the media.

--------------
Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
kevinmillerxi



Posts: 92
Joined: Feb. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 21 2012,10:33   

We've just released our new teaser trailer and web site for the film. Check it out: http://www.hellboundthemovie.com/press-r....release

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 21 2012,10:47   

who cares?

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell.†Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 21 2012,10:52   

Quote (kevinmillerxi @ Mar. 21 2012,10:33)
We've just released our new teaser trailer and web site for the film. Check it out: http://www.hellboundthemovie.com/press-r....release

Quote
Kevin always dreamed of being in the movie business but never actually believed heíd get there.


http://www.hellboundthemovie.com/the-cre....he-crew

You ain't there yet buddy.

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gaugerís work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 3560
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 21 2012,11:26   

Quote
Of course, this is a generalization, and I am always cautious when reading research results reported in the media.


When discussing the right, it might be helpful to distinguish between authoritarian and libertarian.

Politics make for orthogonal alliances.

--------------
Ēletís not make a joke of ourselves.Ē

Pat Robertson

  
Cubist



Posts: 349
Joined: Oct. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 21 2012,12:11   

Quote (kevinmillerxi @ Mar. 21 2012,10:33)
We've just released our new teaser trailer and web site for the film.

That's nice, Mr. Miller. It doesn't alter the fact that you are a damned liar (literallyó9th Commandment, you know?) and an odious shill for other damned liars, but it's nice.

  
Kattarina98



Posts: 1255
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 21 2012,12:20   

Quote
interviews with an eclectic group of high profile authors, theologians, pastors, social commentators, musicians, exorcists and individuals who claim to have experienced the fires of hell firsthand.

(my emphasis)

I'm relieved to find that at least, they couldn't find an expert in witch hunting.

And by the way, they are still too cheap to employ a web designer.

--------------
Barry Arrington is a bitch.

  
JohnW



Posts: 2238
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 21 2012,12:21   

Quote (Kattarina98 @ Mar. 21 2012,10:20)
Quote
interviews with an eclectic group of high profile authors, theologians, pastors, social commentators, musicians, exorcists and individuals who claim to have experienced the fires of hell firsthand.

(my emphasis)

I'm relieved to find that at least, they couldn't find an expert in witch hunting.

And by the way, they are still too cheap to employ a web designer.

Perhaps we could throw Miller in the lake and see if he floats.

--------------
Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it.
- Robert Byers

  
fnxtr



Posts: 2123
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 21 2012,18:48   

Quote (midwifetoad @ Mar. 21 2012,09:26)
Quote
Of course, this is a generalization, and I am always cautious when reading research results reported in the media.


When discussing the right, it might be helpful to distinguish between authoritarian and libertarian.

Politics make for orthogonal alliances.

Bible-thumpers or solipsists.

The Right is all about Small Government until it comes to telling people (especially women) The Right Way To Live.

Couple of US conservative women on CBC the other day were saying they're voting Republican anyway because of the economy, completely forgetting that if The Right had had its way 100 years ago these women still wouldn't be voting at all.

--------------
"But it's disturbing to think someone actually thinks creationism -- having put it's hand on the hot stove every day for the last 400 years -- will get a different result tomorrow." -- midwifetoad

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4362
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 22 2012,20:14   

Quote (JohnW @ Mar. 21 2012,12:21)
Quote (Kattarina98 @ Mar. 21 2012,10:20)
Quote
interviews with an eclectic group of high profile authors, theologians, pastors, social commentators, musicians, exorcists and individuals who claim to have experienced the fires of hell firsthand.

(my emphasis)

I'm relieved to find that at least, they couldn't find an expert in witch hunting.

And by the way, they are still too cheap to employ a web designer.

Perhaps we could throw Miller in the lake and see if he floats.

YES!

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
DiEb



Posts: 235
Joined: May 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 23 2012,02:49   

Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Mar. 21 2012,16:52)
Quote (kevinmillerxi @ Mar. 21 2012,10:33)
We've just released our new teaser trailer and web site for the film. Check it out: http://www.hellboundthemovie.com/press-r....release

 
Quote
Kevin always dreamed of being in the movie business but never actually believed heíd get there.


http://www.hellboundthemovie.com/the-cre....he-crew

You ain't there yet buddy.

When I see the pictures of the crew I ask myself how much of a coincident is it that they are all male? Are women indeed intellectually superior beings? Or are Miller and his friends just misogynistic  twats?

Edited by DiEb on Mar. 23 2012,08:53

   
Cubist



Posts: 349
Joined: Oct. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 07 2012,05:56   

Mr. Miller's latest celluloid excrescence, Hellbound, is apparently going to be foisted upon an unsuspecting world within the next week or so. See [ www.hellboundthemovie.com/ ] for further details.

  
Tracy P. Hamilton



Posts: 1238
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 07 2012,08:07   

Quote (Cubist @ Sep. 07 2012,05:56)
Mr. Miller's latest celluloid excrescence, Hellbound, is apparently going to be foisted upon an unsuspecting world within the next week or so. See [ www.hellboundthemovie.com/ ] for further details.

How many church basements are scheduled for opening week?

--------------
"Following what I just wrote about fitness, youíre taking refuge in what we see in the world." †PaV

"The simple equation F = MA leads to the concept of four-dimensional space." GilDodgen

"We have no brain, I don't, for thinking." Robert Byers

  
fnxtr



Posts: 2123
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 07 2012,08:53   

Is Ron Perlman going to be in this one, too? The first one was okay, the second one not so much.

--------------
"But it's disturbing to think someone actually thinks creationism -- having put it's hand on the hot stove every day for the last 400 years -- will get a different result tomorrow." -- midwifetoad

  
kevinmillerxi



Posts: 92
Joined: Feb. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 07 2012,09:28   

A quick note to say "Hellbound?" is doing a sneak preview in Nashville on Sept. 12 and then opening in NYC, Dallas and Minneapolis on Sept. 21. See all of the details here: http://hellboundthemovie.com./....ie.com.

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3305
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 07 2012,09:48   

Quote (kevinmillerxi @ Sep. 07 2012,09:28)
A quick note to say "Hellbound?" is doing a sneak preview in Nashville on Sept. 12 and then opening in NYC, Dallas and Minneapolis on Sept. 21. See all of the details here: http://hellboundthemovie.com./....ie.....ie.com.

Just out of curiosity, do you think anyone here actually cares?

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
MichaelJ



Posts: 455
Joined: June 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 07 2012,18:12   

Quote (OgreMkV @ Sep. 08 2012,00:48)
Quote (kevinmillerxi @ Sep. 07 2012,09:28)
A quick note to say "Hellbound?" is doing a sneak preview in Nashville on Sept. 12 and then opening in NYC, Dallas and Minneapolis on Sept. 21. See all of the details here: http://hellboundthemovie.com./....ie.....ie.com.

Just out of curiosity, do you think anyone here actually cares?

By posting here it triples his web traffic.

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3305
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 07 2012,18:22   

Quote (MichaelJ @ Sep. 07 2012,18:12)
Quote (OgreMkV @ Sep. 08 2012,00:48)
Quote (kevinmillerxi @ Sep. 07 2012,09:28)
A quick note to say "Hellbound?" is doing a sneak preview in Nashville on Sept. 12 and then opening in NYC, Dallas and Minneapolis on Sept. 21. See all of the details here: http://hellboundthemovie.com./....ie.....ie.com.

Just out of curiosity, do you think anyone here actually cares?

By posting here it triples his web traffic.

I thought web traffic was when people click on your website, not when you click on someone else's website.

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5378
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 07 2012,18:52   

Quote (OgreMkV @ Sep. 07 2012,19:22)
Quote (MichaelJ @ Sep. 07 2012,18:12)
Quote (OgreMkV @ Sep. 08 2012,00:48)
 
Quote (kevinmillerxi @ Sep. 07 2012,09:28)
A quick note to say "Hellbound?" is doing a sneak preview in Nashville on Sept. 12 and then opening in NYC, Dallas and Minneapolis on Sept. 21. See all of the details here: http://hellboundthemovie.com./....ie.....ie.com.

Just out of curiosity, do you think anyone here actually cares?

By posting here it triples his web traffic.

I thought web traffic was when people click on your website, not when you click on someone else's website.

Three clicks would in fact triple his web traffic. The bar is pretty low, which is appropriate for a low-life.

--------------
Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

Work-friendly photography
NSFW photography

   
MichaelJ



Posts: 455
Joined: June 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 08 2012,03:44   

Quote (OgreMkV @ Sep. 08 2012,09:22)
Quote (MichaelJ @ Sep. 07 2012,18:12)
Quote (OgreMkV @ Sep. 08 2012,00:48)
 
Quote (kevinmillerxi @ Sep. 07 2012,09:28)
A quick note to say "Hellbound?" is doing a sneak preview in Nashville on Sept. 12 and then opening in NYC, Dallas and Minneapolis on Sept. 21. See all of the details here: http://hellboundthemovie.com./....ie.....ie.com.

Just out of curiosity, do you think anyone here actually cares?

By posting here it triples his web traffic.

I thought web traffic was when people click on your website, not when you click on someone else's website.

He might think that some of us would be bored enough to click on his website.

  
Freddie



Posts: 366
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 08 2012,03:57   

Quote (MichaelJ @ Sep. 08 2012,03:44)
 
Quote (OgreMkV @ Sep. 08 2012,09:22)
Quote (MichaelJ @ Sep. 07 2012,18:12)
†  
Quote (OgreMkV @ Sep. 08 2012,00:48)
† †
Quote (kevinmillerxi @ Sep. 07 2012,09:28)
A quick note to say "Hellbound?" is doing a sneak preview in Nashville on Sept. 12 and then opening in NYC, Dallas and Minneapolis on Sept. 21. See all of the details here: http://hellboundthemovie.com./....ie.....ie.com.

Just out of curiosity, do you think anyone here actually cares?

By posting here it triples his web traffic.

I thought web traffic was when people click on your website, not when you click on someone else's website.

He might think that some of us would be bored enough to click on his website.

<hangs head in shame :( >

--------------
Joe: Most criticisims of ID stem from ignorance and jealousy.
Joe: As for the authors of the books in the Bible, well the OT was authored by Moses and the NT was authored by various people.
Byers: The eskimo would not need hairy hair growth as hair, I say, is for keeping people dry. Not warm.

  
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