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  Topic: Thoughts on Hell, for Kevin Miller's new Film, Hellbound< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
JAM



Posts: 503
Joined: July 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2011,14:28   

Quote (OgreMkV @ Mar. 25 2011,10:30)

Really, the religions all categorically called Christianity, should be called Paulism.

Exactly.

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4361
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2011,15:14   

Should we start a new thread..."Where's Kevin?"

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Henry J



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(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2011,15:28   

Maybe he's at home alone?

  
Kristine



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Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2011,18:32   

Quote (kevinmillerxi @ Mar. 24 2011,13:38)
As far as this argument goes:
 
Quote
To me, something like The God Delusion †is a really good challenge to think through what I believe in and why do I believe it, and ask myself the big questions. Essentially, if Dawkins is right, the very tool he used to form his argument, which is reason, we have absolutely no reason to trust the outcome of. So his argument has destroyed the tool he used to create the argument. So itís nonsensical.
I've heard plenty of you mock it, but no one refute it.

Refute what? It doesn't even make sense.

--------------
Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
Kristine



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Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2011,18:33   

P.S. I have been busy and have not waded through all of these pages yet.

--------------
Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
khan



Posts: 1479
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2011,18:41   

Quote (Kristine @ Mar. 25 2011,19:32)
Quote (kevinmillerxi @ Mar. 24 2011,13:38)
As far as this argument goes:
Quote
To me, something like The God Delusion †is a really good challenge to think through what I believe in and why do I believe it, and ask myself the big questions. Essentially, if Dawkins is right, the very tool he used to form his argument, which is reason, we have absolutely no reason to trust the outcome of. So his argument has destroyed the tool he used to create the argument. So itís nonsensical.
I've heard plenty of you mock it, but no one refute it.

Refute what? It doesn't even make sense.

Something about refuting the Tooth Fairy and not using birth control...whatever.

--------------
"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

  
Kristine



Posts: 3037
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2011,18:46   

Quote (kevinmillerxi @ Mar. 25 2011,00:52)
My thought process: If what we refer to as reason is nothing but the product of chance + necessity, then the outcome of our reasoning process couldn't be anything more than the same--a product of chance plus necessity. Therefore, the things we refer to as thoughts and arguments are of no more consequence than than the process in our body that manufactures insulin. I'm not saying that's how I think. I just see it as the logical consequence of an atheistic point of view. Put another way: If chance + necessity are the only forces at work in the universe shaping life and everything else we see around us (another way of saying random mutation plus natural selection), you can't sneak anything else in and pretend that the thoughts in your brain are a product of anything that would give them significance beyond what you ascribe to them. So why give credence to them? Why feel passionately about them?

I guess my point is, I hear a lot of people espousing an atheistic point of view but very people actually living out the logical consequences of that point of view. Even Will Provine, who has done as good a job as any of following things through to their logical conclusions, does not seem to live according to his espoused worldview.

But I'm off topic. This thread is supposed to be about hell.

So, in other words, yellow + blue pigment does not equal green?

I refute it thus: the evidence shows otherwise.

You're sitting around navel-gazing.

Learn some facts.

--------------
Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
khan



Posts: 1479
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2011,18:51   

Quote (Kristine @ Mar. 25 2011,19:46)
Quote (kevinmillerxi @ Mar. 25 2011,00:52)
My thought process: If what we refer to as reason is nothing but the product of chance + necessity, then the outcome of our reasoning process couldn't be anything more than the same--a product of chance plus necessity. Therefore, the things we refer to as thoughts and arguments are of no more consequence than than the process in our body that manufactures insulin. I'm not saying that's how I think. I just see it as the logical consequence of an atheistic point of view. Put another way: If chance + necessity are the only forces at work in the universe shaping life and everything else we see around us (another way of saying random mutation plus natural selection), you can't sneak anything else in and pretend that the thoughts in your brain are a product of anything that would give them significance beyond what you ascribe to them. So why give credence to them? Why feel passionately about them?

I guess my point is, I hear a lot of people espousing an atheistic point of view but very people actually living out the logical consequences of that point of view. Even Will Provine, who has done as good a job as any of following things through to their logical conclusions, does not seem to live according to his espoused worldview.

But I'm off topic. This thread is supposed to be about hell.

So, in other words, yellow + blue pigment does not equal green?

I refute it thus: the evidence shows otherwise.

You're sitting around navel-gazing.

Learn some facts.

Facts would fuck with his total world view.

--------------
"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2011,20:02   

Quote (khan @ Mar. 26 2011,00:51)
Quote (Kristine @ Mar. 25 2011,19:46)
Quote (kevinmillerxi @ Mar. 25 2011,00:52)
My thought process: If what we refer to as reason is nothing but the product of chance + necessity, then the outcome of our reasoning process couldn't be anything more than the same--a product of chance plus necessity. Therefore, the things we refer to as thoughts and arguments are of no more consequence than than the process in our body that manufactures insulin. I'm not saying that's how I think. I just see it as the logical consequence of an atheistic point of view. Put another way: If chance + necessity are the only forces at work in the universe shaping life and everything else we see around us (another way of saying random mutation plus natural selection), you can't sneak anything else in and pretend that the thoughts in your brain are a product of anything that would give them significance beyond what you ascribe to them. So why give credence to them? Why feel passionately about them?

I guess my point is, I hear a lot of people espousing an atheistic point of view but very people actually living out the logical consequences of that point of view. Even Will Provine, who has done as good a job as any of following things through to their logical conclusions, does not seem to live according to his espoused worldview.

But I'm off topic. This thread is supposed to be about hell.

So, in other words, yellow + blue pigment does not equal green?

I refute it thus: the evidence shows otherwise.

You're sitting around navel-gazing.

Learn some facts.

Facts would fuck with his total world view.

So would learning.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3282
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2011,20:57   

He's probably thinking the same thing that the colonial marines were wondering when they got to the colonists.

"What the fuck have I gotten into and why the fuck did I voluntarily come here?"

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
Woodbine



Posts: 773
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2011,21:08   

Kevin,

Hell is where other people go when they die. Jews, Atheists, Muslims, Homos. Especially Homos.

  
Henry J



Posts: 4045
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2011,21:44   

Quote
So, in other words, yellow + blue pigment does not equal green?

I refute it thus: the evidence shows otherwise.

You're sitting around navel-gazing.

Learn some facts.

He's observing lint?

  
lkeithlu



Posts: 321
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 26 2011,09:49   

I don't exactly feel qualified to wade into this morass, but I will do so anyway: A question for Kevin:

Why does this film single out Hell?
From my perspective, you can't separate hell from all the other things that religion expects you to believe. Why only hell? As a non-believer, I lump it in with everything else supernatural: angels, heaven, gods, miracles, demons, devils, possession, prayer.
From a evolutionary perspective (ironically) religion makes perfect sense. As intelligence and self awareness grew, so did questions about how the world came to be and what happens after death. Humans have a natural tendency to perceive the world this way, and what they are taught by their society reinforces it. People who subscribe to the cultural beliefs are more successful in passing on their genes than those who don't.

At some level, I have to agree with the other posters here regarding your motives. Expelled was an awful and dishonest film, and gullible people accepted it as fact. As an educator, I see the country slipping more and more into a trend of rejecting sound science; my state is one of many who have pending legislation to allow the most recent manifestation of creationist interference ("academic freedom to teach weaknesses in evolution") Your film, I'm sad to say, is used as support for these efforts, making my job all the harder.

  
Schroedinger's Dog



Posts: 1691
Joined: Jan. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 26 2011,11:29   

Just a quick thought on Hell.

It promises eternal suffering (how very christian). But, in my own experience, with time you can get used to all types of pain (I've been a martyr to toothache and backache for a long time, but don't even feel anything anymore). So, how does this work? Exponantial increase in pain levels until the end of eternity? (And believe you me, in the wise words of Bad Religion: "Eternity, my friend, is a long fucking time"). Because if that's how it works, god's little torturous helpers would have to at least start by giving me a blowjob as a form of torture before they can even reach the point when pain becomes just a tiny nuisance...

--------------
"Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G

"I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis

"The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

   
OgreMkV



Posts: 3282
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 26 2011,14:09   

Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Mar. 26 2011,11:29)
Just a quick thought on Hell.

It promises eternal suffering (how very christian). But, in my own experience, with time you can get used to all types of pain (I've been a martyr to toothache and backache for a long time, but don't even feel anything anymore). So, how does this work? Exponantial increase in pain levels until the end of eternity? (And believe you me, in the wise words of Bad Religion: "Eternity, my friend, is a long fucking time"). Because if that's how it works, god's little torturous helpers would have to at least start by giving me a blowjob as a form of torture before they can even reach the point when pain becomes just a tiny nuisance...

Read "Surface Detail" by Ian Banks.  It's a way better description of hell than what they whiny little Christians call hell.

Of course, we've had 2000 years to refine our ideas of hell from when Paul or his disciples (I suspect) wrote revelation.

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
Schroedinger's Dog



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Joined: Jan. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 26 2011,15:01   

Thanks for the recommandation Ogre. I've heard good things about that book and will order it.

I was just musing. What would be the reaction of Kev' and friends if Jesus Himself appeared to them and said something along the lines of "stop believing in me, God and the Bible right now, under pain of eternal punishment and suffering".

I'd like to be a fly on those walls...

--------------
"Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G

"I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis

"The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

   
Kristine



Posts: 3037
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 26 2011,18:00   

Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Mar. 26 2011,15:01)
Thanks for the recommandation Ogre. I've heard good things about that book and will order it.

I was just musing. What would be the reaction of Kev' and friends if Jesus Himself appeared to them and said something along the lines of "stop believing in me, God and the Bible right now, under pain of eternal punishment and suffering".

I'd like to be a fly on those walls...

I have asked believers how they know that, just hypothetically understand, the Bible was not written by Satan to confuse them. I have yet to receive an answer other than, "But it wasn't!"

I mean, how can they know? They weren't there when it was written, were they? †;)

Edited by Kristine on Mar. 26 2011,18:01

--------------
Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
MichaelJ



Posts: 455
Joined: June 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 27 2011,18:31   

If he was at all honest he would start with the Bible and find that the Christian view of Satan, devils and Hell does not exist in the Bible and is largely an invention of the Dark Age.

He also needs to deal with the fact that the various Christian sects have a very different view of how to avoid going to hell.

Lastly he needs to deal with the fact that according to mainstream Christianity a lot of people who don't deserve it are going to end up in Hell.

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3282
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 27 2011,18:55   

Quote (MichaelJ @ Mar. 27 2011,18:31)
If he was at all honest he would start with the Bible and find that the Christian view of Satan, devils and Hell does not exist in the Bible and is largely an invention of the Dark Age.

He also needs to deal with the fact that the various Christian sects have a very different view of how to avoid going to hell.

Lastly he needs to deal with the fact that according to mainstream Christianity a lot of people who don't deserve it are going to end up in Hell.

And that a lot of people who don't deserve it are going to end up in heaven.

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
Cubist



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Joined: Oct. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 27 2011,19:57   

Quote (MichaelJ @ Mar. 27 2011,18:31)
Lastly he needs to deal with the fact that according to mainstream Christianity a lot of people who don't deserve it are going to end up in Hell.

I beg to differ: According to mainstream Christianity, everyone deserves to end up in Hell, because everyone is maximally disgusting and sinful and evil JUST BECAUSE. So sayeth the lovely, life-affirming doctrine of Original Sin, don't'cha know.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 28 2011,04:25   

Quote (Cubist @ Mar. 28 2011,01:57)
Quote (MichaelJ @ Mar. 27 2011,18:31)
Lastly he needs to deal with the fact that according to mainstream Christianity a lot of people who don't deserve it are going to end up in Hell.

I beg to differ: According to mainstream Christianity, everyone deserves to end up in Hell, because everyone is maximally disgusting and sinful and evil JUST BECAUSE. So sayeth the lovely, life-affirming doctrine of Original Sin, don't'cha know.

I find it extremely telling that original sin derived from curiosity and the desire for knowledge. Well, if you believe one version of the fairy tales that is.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
k.e..



Posts: 2872
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 28 2011,04:44   

Quote (Louis @ Mar. 28 2011,12:25)
Quote (Cubist @ Mar. 28 2011,01:57)
Quote (MichaelJ @ Mar. 27 2011,18:31)
Lastly he needs to deal with the fact that according to mainstream Christianity a lot of people who don't deserve it are going to end up in Hell.

I beg to differ: According to mainstream Christianity, everyone deserves to end up in Hell, because everyone is maximally disgusting and sinful and evil JUST BECAUSE. So sayeth the lovely, life-affirming doctrine of Original Sin, don't'cha know.

I find it extremely telling that original sin derived from curiosity and the desire for knowledge. Well, if you believe one version of the fairy tales that is.

Louis

That's funny I thought OS was something to do with a talking snake (with at least two legs) and a woman.

Snakes came out the winners there didn't they when he condemed all snake kind to crawl on their bellies? Wait 'till the big G finds out that one in the garden of Eden didn't have legs to start with*.

*NOT SMART ARSE EVO COMMENTS ON SNAKE EVOLUTION PLEASE I'M TALKING ABOUT A MYTH.

--------------
"I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his clown DaveTard suit" dogdidit
"Abbie Smith (ERV) who's got to be the most obnoxious arrogant snot I've ever seen except for when I look in a mirror" DAVE TARD
"ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus

  
fnxtr



Posts: 2110
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 28 2011,10:18   

Quote (Louis @ Mar. 28 2011,02:25)
Quote (Cubist @ Mar. 28 2011,01:57)
 
Quote (MichaelJ @ Mar. 27 2011,18:31)
Lastly he needs to deal with the fact that according to mainstream Christianity a lot of people who don't deserve it are going to end up in Hell.

I beg to differ: According to mainstream Christianity, everyone deserves to end up in Hell, because everyone is maximally disgusting and sinful and evil JUST BECAUSE. So sayeth the lovely, life-affirming doctrine of Original Sin, don't'cha know.

I find it extremely telling that original sin derived from curiosity and the desire for knowledge. Well, if you believe one version of the fairy tales that is.

Louis

Somehow I got the impression that "orginal sin" was actually, you know, doin' it.

At least all the bluestocking Bible-thumpers I was exposed to seemed to think so.

--------------
"But it's disturbing to think someone actually thinks creationism -- having put it's hand on the hot stove every day for the last 400 years -- will get a different result tomorrow." -- midwifetoad

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 28 2011,10:29   

Quote (fnxtr @ Mar. 28 2011,16:18)
Quote (Louis @ Mar. 28 2011,02:25)
 
Quote (Cubist @ Mar. 28 2011,01:57)
Quote (MichaelJ @ Mar. 27 2011,18:31)
Lastly he needs to deal with the fact that according to mainstream Christianity a lot of people who don't deserve it are going to end up in Hell.

I beg to differ: According to mainstream Christianity, everyone deserves to end up in Hell, because everyone is maximally disgusting and sinful and evil JUST BECAUSE. So sayeth the lovely, life-affirming doctrine of Original Sin, don't'cha know.

I find it extremely telling that original sin derived from curiosity and the desire for knowledge. Well, if you believe one version of the fairy tales that is.

Louis

Somehow I got the impression that "orginal sin" was actually, you know, doin' it.

At least all the bluestocking Bible-thumpers I was exposed to seemed to think so.

So shagging and figuring out stuff about the universe = Teh Bad?

I knew I didn't like that religion for a good reason.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3282
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 28 2011,10:29   

Quote (fnxtr @ Mar. 28 2011,10:18)
Quote (Louis @ Mar. 28 2011,02:25)
 
Quote (Cubist @ Mar. 28 2011,01:57)
Quote (MichaelJ @ Mar. 27 2011,18:31)
Lastly he needs to deal with the fact that according to mainstream Christianity a lot of people who don't deserve it are going to end up in Hell.

I beg to differ: According to mainstream Christianity, everyone deserves to end up in Hell, because everyone is maximally disgusting and sinful and evil JUST BECAUSE. So sayeth the lovely, life-affirming doctrine of Original Sin, don't'cha know.

I find it extremely telling that original sin derived from curiosity and the desire for knowledge. Well, if you believe one version of the fairy tales that is.

Louis

Somehow I got the impression that "orginal sin" was actually, you know, doin' it.

At least all the bluestocking Bible-thumpers I was exposed to seemed to think so.

That puts a disturbing interpretation on 'born in sin'.

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
Henry J



Posts: 4045
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 28 2011,10:45   

Quote (Cubist @ Mar. 27 2011,18:57)
Quote (MichaelJ @ Mar. 27 2011,18:31)
Lastly he needs to deal with the fact that according to mainstream Christianity a lot of people who don't deserve it are going to end up in Hell.

I beg to differ: According to mainstream Christianity, everyone deserves to end up in Hell, because everyone is maximally disgusting and sinful and evil JUST BECAUSE. So sayeth the lovely, life-affirming doctrine of Original Sin, don't'cha know.

Don't beg; it isn't dignified.  :p

  
Henry J



Posts: 4045
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 28 2011,10:47   

Quote
So shagging and figuring out stuff about the universe = Teh Bad?

I knew I didn't like that religion for a good reason.

Louis

Yeah; things like that could lead to dancing!

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4361
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 28 2011,11:05   

And I ask once again, where in the hell is Kevin?

Have we been so mean to him that he has gone to his own little private hell?  Is he sulking?  Rejoicing in his suffering?

We Question - You Decide!

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 28 2011,12:45   

Quote (Henry J @ Mar. 28 2011,16:47)
Quote
So shagging and figuring out stuff about the universe = Teh Bad?

I knew I didn't like that religion for a good reason.

Louis

Yeah; things like that could lead to dancing!

{Faints from shock}

--------------
Bye.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 28 2011,13:52   

Quote (J-Dog @ Mar. 28 2011,17:05)
And I ask once again, where in the hell is Kevin?

Have we been so mean to him that he has gone to his own little private hell? †Is he sulking? †Rejoicing in his suffering?

We Question - You Decide!

Darling,

You know I love you, but really, does anyone care where Kevin is? He's done what he came for, to stir up some noise about some shite movie he's involved with, just like the pointless propagandist he is. He is intellectually negligible and utterly forgettable.

He's not interested in engaging, he's interested in free advertising. He hopes a lurker/troll/reader of the site will think to themselves "I'll go and see that movie" for whatever reason.

Personally speaking, he's just another chew toy. As disposable as any of the others. He can stay gone for all I care. If he comes back, I shall insult him some more! Hurrah!

(His mother was a hamster and his father smelt of elderberries)

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
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