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  Topic: Coloration of animals, mimicry, aposematism, Is really natural selection behind it?< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 01 2007,12:59   

Quote (VMartin @ Oct. 01 2007,12:50)
 
Quote (BWE @ Oct. 01 2007,12:01)
I'm sorry. I can't take it any more. VMartin, this isn't a challenge to evolution by natural selection.

This is a micro example. Since evolution by natural selection is the force driving speciation, we can know for certain that these things evolved the way they did through natural selection. How is an academic matter with potentially no useful information flowing from the answer. Of course there could be something useful but maybe not. Anyway, raising your objection at all is a weird straw-grasping gesture that even makes the moonies at the airport avoid you.

Yeesh.

Uf. Another "expert". Micro example, would you believe to such an "argument"?

BWE, do you know something about mimicry or not? Then go away and have a talk at "bathroom wall" with poor Arden. You have written stupid gibberish yet like him. You are not at school to deceive small children how "natural selection" created "warning coloration" you know. But I am aftraid even a small child wouldn't be persuaded by your "airport natural selection" gibberish.

'Stupid gibberish'? Asking you to provide an alternate solution to the one you're witlessly trashing is 'stupid gibberish'?

Out of curiosity, Marty, do you have any kind science education at all? Or did your science teachers just spend all the time trashing theories they didn't like?

Put up or shut up, Marty. Give us an alternate theory. Otherwise, either go back to cuddling Davison, or get back to work.

Quote

Uf. Another "expert". Micro example, would you believe to such an "argument"?


As someone who never offers arguments of any kind, you shouldn't talk, Marty.

Answer the questions or leave, troll.

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 01 2007,13:10   

Quote
17 Public Members and 2 Anonymous Members   [ View Complete List ]
>Arden Chatfield >N.Wells >dheddle >Richardthughes >Louis >slpage >Venus Mousetrap >improvius >BWE >jeannot >argystokes >J-Dog >Tom >oldmanintheskydidntdoit >JohnW >Albatrossity2 >VMartin


Uh, Marty, we're waiting.

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
VMartin



Posts: 525
Joined: Nov. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 01 2007,13:13   

Quote (jeannot @ Oct. 01 2007,12:58)
Quote (VMartin @ Oct. 01 2007,12:34)
But who knows, there was once a time wasps have no predators due to their "waring stripes" hehe...

Martin, what about the paper I linked to? I clearly shows that a painted stripped pattern lowers the risk of death by predation. Why is that?
So far, you failed to comment on its results.

PS: your photos are totally irrelevant.

Oh, really? Because the research I gave you the link  contardicts to such fantasies clearly:


Quote

Overall, we found no evidence to support the hypothesis that wasp-like warning signals protect small insect prey from attack by dragonflies, although size seems to be an important cue in dragonfly prey choice.


Another point is why do you stick at dragonflies. Do you mean  they play any significant role in selecting of color patterns of wasps or what? Because Poulton was of another meaning. The protection of wasps against birds (quoting Poulton:) "would be largely compensated by a relatively increased exposure to predaceous Invertebrata".

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I could not answer, but should maintain my ground.-
Charles Darwin

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 01 2007,13:17   

Marty, we're waiting.

What's your explanation?

Have one?

Anything? Nothing?

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
BWE



Posts: 1896
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 01 2007,13:18   

Quote (VMartin @ Oct. 01 2007,12:50)
Quote (BWE @ Oct. 01 2007,12:01)
I'm sorry. I can't take it any more. VMartin, this isn't a challenge to evolution by natural selection.

This is a micro example. Since evolution by natural selection is the force driving speciation, we can know for certain that these things evolved the way they did through natural selection. How is an academic matter with potentially no useful information flowing from the answer. Of course there could be something useful but maybe not. Anyway, raising your objection at all is a weird straw-grasping gesture that even makes the moonies at the airport avoid you.

Yeesh.

Uf. Another "expert". Micro example, would you believe to such an "argument"?

BWE, do you know something about mimicry or not? Then go away and have a talk at "bathroom wall" with poor Arden. You have written stupid gibberish yet like him. You are not at school to deceive small children how "natural selection" created "warning coloration" you know. But I am aftraid even a small child wouldn't be persuaded by your "airport natural selection" gibberish.

Sorry V. I was hoping that if I misused the words it might help you understand.

Anyway, since you appear to be interested in whacky mimicry, here's the way out best mimic:




Quote
Description & Behavior

Movie 1 | Movie 2 | Movie 3 | Movie 4

This fascinating creature was discovered in 1998 off the coast of Sulawesi in Indonesia on the bottom of a muddy river mouth. For the next 2 years, scientists filmed nine different mimic octopuses, Thaumoctopus mimicus (Norman & Hochberg, 2005), impersonating sea snakes, lionfish, and flatfish—a strategy used to avoid predators. The mimic octopus reaches about 60 cm long, and is typically brown and white striped.

The mimic octopus has been observed shifting between impersonations as it crosses the ocean floor to return to its burrow.

Scientists speculate that additional mimic species will be found in muddy river and estuary bottoms in the tropics as these areas are typically unexplored.

All octopus species are highly intelligent and change the color and texture of their skin for camouflage to avoid predators. Until the mimic octopus was discovered, however, the remarkable ability to impersonate another animal had never been observed.

Norman and fellow researchers, Julian Finn of the University of Tasmania in Australia and Tom Tregenza of the University of Leeds in England, describe the mimic octopus in the September 7th issue of the Proceedings of the Royal Society of London.

Although mimicry is a common survival strategy in nature, certain flies assume the black and yellow stripes of bees as a warning to potential predators, the mimic octopus is the first known species to take on the characteristics of multiple species. The creatures they mimic include:

» Sole fish: This flat, poisonous fish is imitated by the mimic octopus by building up speed through jet propulsion as it draws all of its arms together into a leaf-shaped wedge as it undulates in the manner of a swimming flat fish.

» Lion fish: To mimic the lion fish, the octopus hovers above the ocean floor with its arms spread wide, trailing from its body to take on the appearance of the lion fish's poisonous fins.

» Sea snakes: The mimic octopus changes color taking on the yellow and black bands of the toxic sea snake as it waves 2 arms in opposite directions in the motion of two sea snakes.

Scientists believe this creature may also impersonate sand anemones, stingrays, mantis shrimp and even jellyfish.

This animal is so intelligent that it is able to discern which dangerous sea creature to impersonate that will present the greatest threat to its current possible predator. For example, scientists observed that when the octopus was attacked by territorial damselfishes, it mimicked the banded sea snake, a known predator of damselfishes.


The movies from the site are really cool BTW. here's the link: here.

But V, don't stop. You've no idea how much fun you are at parties.

--------------
Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered
When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it
Look what it's done so far

The Daily Wingnut

   
VMartin



Posts: 525
Joined: Nov. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 01 2007,14:39   

BWE having no idea about insect mimicry is trying to discuss it using off topic example. But even his example is spreading this nonsense:

   
Quote

Although mimicry is a common survival strategy in nature, certain flies assume the black and yellow stripes of bees as a warning to potential predators...


I don't know at what darwinian party the article was written, but on my opinion black and yellow stripes are more visible on wasps than on bees. Bees even look  more inconspicuous, even cryptic.  But because authors do not discern between wasps and bees no wonder they see "multiple" mimicry now everywhere.

   
Quote

But V, don't stop. You've no idea how much fun you are at parties.


I don't doubt about it. If at those  parties are  darwinian adolescents and experts on mimicry like you and others here...

--------------
I could not answer, but should maintain my ground.-
Charles Darwin

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 01 2007,14:43   

Quote

I don't doubt about it. If at those  parties are  darwinian adolescents and experts on mimicry like you and others here...


Oh Maaaaartyyyyyyyy......Maaaaartyyyyyyyy...... answer our questions, Maaaaartyyyyyyyy......

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
BWE



Posts: 1896
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 01 2007,14:48   

Um... Have you looked at the reference provided by jeannot? That's ok. I didn't either until I read your last post.

BTW, you are right V. I am not an expert in insect mimicry. However, referring to my previous point, I don't need to be in order to know that speciation is the result of evolution through natural selection.

However, I am learning something on this thread so I hope you continue to enjoy yourself.

--------------
Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered
When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it
Look what it's done so far

The Daily Wingnut

   
jeannot



Posts: 1200
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 01 2007,15:03   

Martin, you're getting more boring and arrogant than ever. ???
There are hundreds of studies testing and confirming aposematism in many animals. Do I need past all their abstracts here?
Your fancy pictures of wasps being eaten by predators (big news), and this old study whose negative result fail to demonstrate aposematism doesn't prove your point, whatever that is.

  
VMartin



Posts: 525
Joined: Nov. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 01 2007,15:26   

Quote (jeannot @ Oct. 01 2007,15:03)
Martin, you're getting more boring and arrogant than ever. ???
There are hundreds of studies testing and confirming aposematism in many animals. Do I need past all their abstracts here?
Your fancy pictures of wasps being eaten by predators (big news), and this old study whose negative result fail to demonstrate aposematism doesn't prove your point, whatever that is.

Oh, there are "hundreds of studies"? You have presented only one of them yet - which was mildly speaking utterly childish. Feel free to put here second one of them. As you can see I have no problem tu put here "studies" or experiments or facts that refute your "studies" very clearly. There is unbelievable mess in those studies.  
We can go through each one of those "hundreds of studies" one by one.


All this mess is caused by the fact that there is no such thing as "warning coloration" of wasps, bees, ladybirds, butterfiles. This is the reason why such studies contradicts each other. But selectionists insist on "warning coloration", or aposematism to explain colourful patterns of many insect species.

Now you are using the argument - we are so many, we have so many studies, we must be right!
But you are not.
Let's start with another "study" of insect "warning coloration". Choice the one you like best.

--------------
I could not answer, but should maintain my ground.-
Charles Darwin

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 01 2007,15:28   

Quote

We can go through each one of those "hundreds of studies" one by one.


Instead, why don't you explain what *your* theory is, Marty?

Or, explain why it's 'adolescent' to ask you to explain yourself.

Martin, for your country's sake, I sincerely hope you're not a typical result of the Slovakian educational system.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
BWE



Posts: 1896
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 01 2007,15:39   

V,

Hmmm. High school kid playing a prank?

OK, thought experiment, why are they warning coloration on wasps? Why not just a bit o teh sexah? But if you were a kind of thing that didn't like the sting so to speak and you got tired of gittin jiggy wit the owie kabowie, you'd be fair to likely to cross the seat and not bitch about the color of twinkie's eyes if you catch my drift. At that point my slinky mollusk is thinking Arby's. Follow?

--------------
Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered
When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it
Look what it's done so far

The Daily Wingnut

   
BWE



Posts: 1896
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 01 2007,16:42   

Quote (VMartin @ Oct. 01 2007,14:39)
Quote

But V, don't stop. You've no idea how much fun you are at parties.


I don't doubt about it. If at those  parties are  darwinian adolescents and experts on mimicry like you and others here...

Can you elaborate? Forgive me if I miss the reference. Your thinking style isn't native to my whatever it could be...

--------------
Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered
When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it
Look what it's done so far

The Daily Wingnut

   
deadman_932



Posts: 3094
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 01 2007,17:05   

Some things to look at, perhaps:

Lindström, L. , Alatalo, R. V. , Lyytinen, A. & Mappes, J. (2001) Strong antiapostatic selection against novel rare aposematic prey. Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA 98, 9181-9184 http://www.pnas.org/cgi....1a92ec6

Commentary on Lindstrom's work by James Mallet in PNAS: Mimicry: An interface between psychology and evolution PNAS 2001 98: 8928-8930 http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/98/16/8928

 
Quote
Every now and then, a new technique allows major breakthroughs to be made on a hitherto intractable problem. In this issue of PNAS, Leena Lindström and colleagues have shed light on long-standing controversies in warning color and mimicry. They have achieved this through experiments on the behavior of wild-caught birds (great tits, Parus major), using their ingenious "novel world" setup, a modification of that originally introduced by Rauno Alatalo and Johanna Mappes in 1996...

I believe that simplistic number-dependent selection will ultimately be disproved; however, near-zero attack asymptotes can ONLY lead to conventional, mutualistic Müllerian mimicry... Will we ever have a complete, unassailable theory of warning color and Müllerian mimicry? I don't know, but I believe the ingenious "novel world" experiments  are the best yet designed to investigate the psychological interface of this unsolved evolutionary problem (my emphases)


--------------
AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

  
deadman_932



Posts: 3094
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 01 2007,17:44   

Those little works lead me to things like:

C. Barnett, M Bateson, and C Rowe. State-dependent decision making: educated predators strategically trade off the costs and benefits of consuming aposematic prey
Behav. Ecol., July 1, 2007; 18(4): 645 - 651. http://beheco.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/18/4/645

and:

M. V. Trotter and H. G. Spencer. Frequency-Dependent Selection and the Maintenance of Genetic Variation: Exploring the Parameter Space of the Multiallelic Pairwise Interaction Model. Genetics, July 1, 2007; 176(3): 1729 - 1740.

commentary on early models of "Speedian" or "quasi-Batesian" mimicry:

Joron, M. ; Mallet, JLB.(1998) Diversity in mimicry: paradox or paradigm? Trends in Ecology & Evolution. Vol. 13, no. 11, 461 p. Nov 1998. http://zeldia.cap.ed.ac.uk/joron/joron98.pdf

A proposed mathematical model and a good overview of various theoretical models of aposematism:

Evol Puurtinen M,Kaitala V (2006) CONDITIONS FOR THE SPREAD OF CONSPICUOUS WARNING SIGNALS: A NUMERICAL MODEL WITH NOVEL INSIGHTS. Evolution 60(11): 2246 http://users.jyu.fi/~hemipu/2227_Puurtinen.pdf

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AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

  
VMartin



Posts: 525
Joined: Nov. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 01 2007,23:47   

Quote (deadman_932 @ Oct. 01 2007,17:44)
Those little works lead me to things like:

C. Barnett, M Bateson, and C Rowe. State-dependent decision making: educated predators strategically trade off the costs and benefits of consuming aposematic prey
Behav. Ecol., July 1, 2007; 18(4): 645 - 651. http://beheco.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/18/4/645

and:

M. V. Trotter and H. G. Spencer. Frequency-Dependent Selection and the Maintenance of Genetic Variation: Exploring the Parameter Space of the Multiallelic Pairwise Interaction Model. Genetics, July 1, 2007; 176(3): 1729 - 1740.

commentary on early models of "Speedian" or "quasi-Batesian" mimicry:

Joron, M. ; Mallet, JLB.(1998) Diversity in mimicry: paradox or paradigm? Trends in Ecology & Evolution. Vol. 13, no. 11, 461 p. Nov 1998. http://zeldia.cap.ed.ac.uk/joron/joron98.pdf

A proposed mathematical model and a good overview of various theoretical models of aposematism:

Evol Puurtinen M,Kaitala V (2006) CONDITIONS FOR THE SPREAD OF CONSPICUOUS WARNING SIGNALS: A NUMERICAL MODEL WITH NOVEL INSIGHTS. Evolution 60(11): 2246 http://users.jyu.fi/~hemipu/2227_Puurtinen.pdf

As I have already told to Jeannot - please pick up only one of those materials and put it here for discussion.  It doesn't mean that giving links to ten materials in two  consecutive posts  you prove story of  aposematism. You see I have also other interests as study all selectionists links you put here.

The last link is of no avail - armchair mathematical models are proving nothing. It is ridiculous to make armchair computation and charts how are wasps protected where there are bird predators specialised on wasps.

In the other link you have given is written these sentence:

   
Quote

This result challenges classic theoretical models of the evolution of aposematism based purely on predator learning and forgetting rates and demonstrates the need to consider energy-toxin trade-offs in foraging decisions on defended prey.


In other words it told us what we know more than 70 years. This "trade-off" is nothing more and nothing less than the fact if the foraging bird is hungry or not.  
If it is hungry it will eat aposematics regardless of their poison.

The most important are experiments outdoors and from those are the most important studies of the content of stomachs of real birds.

These experiments was done by Biological Survey Division of United States Department of Agriculture. They wanted to estimate harmfulness of birds. These results are neglected by selectionists, because they show something selectionists do not like - wasp, bees are readily eaten by birds.

McAtee made statistics from these results and argue with Poulton about efecteveness of "warning coloration" of wasps, etc...

The same study was done in Hungary 1905-1910 by Csiki, who studied contents of stomachs of almost 2.800 birds. The result corresponds with those done in USA. Heikertinger quoted results in his book refuting selectionists explanation of mimicry.

Such studies are not done anymore, but instead we are facing the great number of indoor experiments and "mathematical models" proving aposematism.

 
Quote

Professor Beal on the Food of our More Important Flycatchers...
Of this hymenoptera-- bees, wasps, etc. constitute more than a
third and as these insects are for the most part beneficial, this element must be weighed against the destruction of noxious species, which Prof. Beal considers more than balances it....


Quote

Food.--The 186 stomachs of the tufted titmouse examined by Professor Beal (Beal, McAtee, and Kalmbach, 1916) were irregularly distributed throughout the year and were considered by him too few "to afford more than an approximation of the bird's economic worth." ...
The food consisted of 66.57 percent animal matter and 33.43 percent vegetable. He says that the food "includes one item, caterpillars, which form more than half the animal food, and two items, caterpillars and wasps, which are more than half of the whole food."



This is reality, not armchair mathematical models.

--------------
I could not answer, but should maintain my ground.-
Charles Darwin

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 02 2007,00:20   

Quote
This is reality, not armchair mathematical models.


VMartin tells us what 'reality' is. Good lord.

Share your reality, Marty. Since you disdain 'selectionists' so, what is the correct model?

You do HAVE a model, right, troll?

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 02 2007,10:09   

Quote
They even "THINK"? Really? Did't you make some naive antropomorphism to support your ridiculous concept of mimicry and it's protective value?


You fool, you believe that only humans think?  Do you think visual display is the only sort of mimicry?  What is your point anyway, other than making an ass out of yourself?

Quote
you do not know that in nests is dark and that ants use their antennae to check each other. You would  continue to spread nonsense about ant mimics which visionaly look like ants. It should give them protection by your flawed logic - but no one know protection against what.


Speaking of anthropomorphic projection, what is dark to you is dark to all?  Someone should tell the burrowing salamanders.  I have seen spiders beetles and hemiptera that look just like ants and that live in ant colonies.  I would love to hear your explanation for why that is so.  If you want to yammer on and on about directed mutations please do so but realize there is not one single shred of evidence for such things.  With a few exceptions most working biologists have realized that many things are invisible to selection and not every feature of the natural world has been forged in the fire of selection.  See 'Spandrels and homage to Santa Rosalia' silly fool.

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
VMartin



Posts: 525
Joined: Nov. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 02 2007,14:06   

Erasmus
 
Quote

You fool, you believe that only humans think?


I have supposed that insects are driven by instincts. But if you are sure that insects and especially ants "think" I have nothing to say.
Anyway your opinion about a "thinking ant" is a brand new theory I dare say.

 
Quote

Do you think visual display is the only sort of mimicry?


But it was you who claimed the same in the next sentence:

 
Quote

I have seen spiders beetles and hemiptera that look just like ants and that live in ant colonies.


I have asked you it first btw. How are you sure that such a "visual" mimicry is perceived as a mimicry by ants' antennae in the dark of an anthill? They use touch, not look.

 
Quote

Speaking of anthropomorphic projection, what is dark to you is dark to all?  Someone should tell the burrowing salamanders.  


We are discussing ants' mimics now. Do you suggest that ants use vision in anthill and are decepted by their vision there?


But as far as I underestand your point of view you don't care about point 2 and 3. Any similarity is a mimicry for you. Even if we accept a fact that some spiders looks like ants to us (I am speaking about humans and our vision, not about ants and their way of perception)
the question remains: what was the driving force of such similarity?

Obviously you do agree that it was not natural selection -or am I wrong? Because you have written:

 
Quote

With a few exceptions most working biologists have realized that many things are invisible to selection and not every feature of the natural world has been forged in the fire of selection.


I fully agree. In the case of ants and their "mimics" (as well as wasps and their mimics and ladybirds and their mimics) natural selection play no role whatsever.

Because: to look like an ant, wasp or ladybird brings no "survival advantage".

 
Quote

What is your point anyway, other than making an ass out of yourself?


My point is as you wrote it  -  natural selection play no role in evolution of "warning coloration" - aposematism and NS play no role in mimicry. I think that you agree with me. It's fine even though you are such an ignorant in the interesting cases of coloration of insects.

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I could not answer, but should maintain my ground.-
Charles Darwin

  
Steviepinhead



Posts: 532
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 02 2007,16:57   

Vweenie:
Quote
Oh, there are "hundreds of studies"? You have presented only one of them yet - which was mildly speaking utterly childish. Feel free to put here second one of them. As you can see I have no problem tu put here "studies" or experiments or facts that refute your "studies" very clearly. There is unbelievable mess in those studies.  We can go through each one of those "hundreds of studies" one by one.


And, when we does so, are you going to have a more acute criticism--oh, you know, something involving critiquing the evidence, data, observation, experimental design?--as opposed to evidence-free assertions like "utterly childish"?

Didn't think so.

In the meantime, Vmaroonie, got any answers to Teh Questiones?

Didn't think so.

  
jeannot



Posts: 1200
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 02 2007,17:11   

Quote (VMartin @ Oct. 01 2007,23:47)
As I have already told to Jeannot - please pick up only one of those materials and put it here for discussion.

Why are flies painted with striped color more avoided that flies painted in black?  

Scientists say: that's because they look like wasps, which happen to be less predated.

VMartin says: ...

Science 1
VMartin 0

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 02 2007,17:36   

Quote
Because: to look like an ant, wasp or ladybird brings no "survival advantage".


Oh really, Marty? You quite sure about that? Or is your arrogance supposed to prove it?

Quote
natural selection play no role in evolution of "warning coloration" - aposematism and NS play no role in mimicry. I


Then what does 'play a role', Marty?

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Henry J



Posts: 4114
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 02 2007,21:58   

Re "Scientists say: that's because they look like wasps, which happen to be less predated."

I'm guessing it depends on the kind of bird. A predator with the ability to get around the wasp's defences will probably not be put off by its appearance. A predator that is more vulnerable to that stinger, probably would be.

Henry

  
jeannot



Posts: 1200
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2007,05:44   

Quote (Henry J @ Oct. 02 2007,21:58)
Re "Scientists say: that's because they look like wasps, which happen to be less predated."

I'm guessing it depends on the kind of bird. A predator with the ability to get around the wasp's defences will probably not be put off by its appearance. A predator that is more vulnerable to that stinger, probably would be.

Henry

Yes, but what counts is the average fitness cost due to predation.

  
improvius



Posts: 807
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2007,07:48   

Quote (VMartin @ Oct. 02 2007,15:06)
Because: to look like an ant, wasp or ladybird brings no "survival advantage".

You're saying that an insect which feeds on ant larvae receives no advantage from blending in with those ants?  Come on, this is beyond stupid.

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Quote (afdave @ Oct. 02 2006,18:37)
Many Jews were in comfortable oblivion about Hitler ... until it was too late.
Many scientists will persist in comfortable oblivion about their Creator ... until it is too late.

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2007,10:32   

Martin you of course are whistling past the graveyard where your 'instinct' and my 'think' lie intertwined as mutually inclusive explanations for animal behavior.  

Otherwise, it is just instinct that is causing you to be an obnoxious troll and not answer questions that folks are dying to hear.  

Or just instinct for you to do anything else you do.  Or a dog.  Or an amoeba.  Or an ant.  Or Leviathan.

Or are humans different, martin?  Is that where we are going?  animals and plants use instinct, men think?  

Now, ants don't live in anthills all the time.  So surely they see sometimes (or perhaps the Designer guides them around like sparrows).  Anthills are probably not entirely dark.  I'm not making a positive point here, just pointing out that yours is stupid and irrelevant.  

Now listen up, troll.

You say natural selection plays no role whatsoever in mimicry.  WHAT DOES???

If by whatever reason, a mimicry arises that does confer selective advantage, then selection will fix that mimicry.

When you claim that selection cannot account for mimicry, then you claim that mimicry by definition is the result of natural selection, you are setting up straw men that you seem to enjoy tearing down.  Trolling is fun.  No doubt.  But you haven't added anything to the discussion.

We are waiting to hear how mimicry arises, according to the world famous well-published well-read VMartin.  You can play semantic games from the position of the german school all day long, but the mechanisms of heredity are against you when you claim that selection can't fix it in a population.

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Steviepinhead



Posts: 532
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2007,13:08   

Erasmus, FCD:
Quote
Now listen up, troll.

You say natural selection plays no role whatsoever in mimicry.  WHAT DOES???


Arden Chatfield:
Quote
Vweenie:  
"natural selection play no role in evolution of "warning coloration" - aposematism and NS play no role in mimicry."


Then what does 'play a role', Marty?


These are pretty clear questions, weenie.  Heck, I'll even give you a hint: they are the same question.

Either answer it or, by failing to answer it, admit that you can't and that you're the clueless maroon we've all recognized as such since you first slithered in under out swinging bar doors, clinging to the coattails of JAD, who at least stumbled in on his own two hindlimbs, albeit swaying perilously.

  
VMartin



Posts: 525
Joined: Nov. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2007,14:45   

Erasmus:
 
Quote

If by whatever reason, a mimicry arises that does confer selective advantage, then selection will fix that mimicry.


First I wrote that something to be consider mimicry it should fulfil all the following conditions:

1) there is a resemblance to other species.
2) This resemblance give some advantage to species.
3) This resemblance aroused via Natural selection.

You answered Sep 28:

   
Quote

we can safely dispense with 2 and 3 here.  i'm interested in why things look like other things when they are not those things, and i'm calling that mimicry.


But now you added "survival advantage" and "natural selection" to it. Probably you eventualy see that the above mentioned definition is a good definition of mimicry.

My point is that if in some given case under discussion:

1) there is no resemlance to other species
2) there is a resemblance but such resemblance give no "survival advantage"
3) there is a resemblance that give "survival advantage" bur this resemblance is not an outcome of natural selection,

then considering all these cases we are not facing mimicry.

   
Quote

You can play semantic games from the position of the german school all day long, but the mechanisms of heredity are against you when you claim that selection can't fix it in a population.


I am trying to define mimicry.  I defined it some times ago, but you disagreed, because for you every similarity represented "mimicry" at that time.

In the case of insects that resemble ants we are encountering cavernous shapes of insects. For such cavernous animals are characteristic:
- small or no eyes.
- often, but not always, striking extention of antennae and legs.            
- very often narrowing of the front part of the body
- swelling of the hind part of the body (bubble shape).

Neverthenless they can be tell apart from similarly looking ants because their shape is like of "stock" (of rifle) and ants shape is that of "dumbbell".

These cavernous shape we encounter very often outside anthills, in (micro)cavernous environment where no ants live.

If we encounter such shaped animal living amongst ants it doesn't mean that it "mimic" them.

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I could not answer, but should maintain my ground.-
Charles Darwin

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2007,14:47   

You're still not answering the question, or answering the objections to your previous statements.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
VMartin



Posts: 525
Joined: Nov. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2007,15:02   

Quote (jeannot @ Oct. 02 2007,17:11)
 
Quote (VMartin @ Oct. 01 2007,23:47)
As I have already told to Jeannot - please pick up only one of those materials and put it here for discussion.

Why are flies painted with striped color more avoided that flies painted in black?  

Scientists say: that's because they look like wasps, which happen to be less predated.

VMartin says: ...

Science 1
VMartin 0

Do you mean Dipteria? From these most wasps-like are Syrphidae, hoverflies.

But I am not sure you mean these. As for Syrphidae
the black segments with some yellow margin stripes are their common coloration.

There are about 6,000 species in 200 genera in this family of Syrphidae. Do you mean these 6.000 species are mimics of wasps? If not, which of them?

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I could not answer, but should maintain my ground.-
Charles Darwin

  
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