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Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 26 2012,08:47   

crossposted to TSZ thread
Quote


I was thinking of stephen, wasn't aware of mandi.  

so we have one good example of someone de-tarding within the history of this board.  

what we still haven't demonstrated is whether that de-tard was

Quote
on the basis of [your] online dialogue


It's hard to imagine ID without the internet, indeed that is about the only place it exists.  

A theoretically possible mythic beast that is often hailed in story and song, but all reports and observations of this purported being have turned out to be the rotting corpse of Creationism, being animated by dominionist political tools.

Mike Elzinga likes to toodle about this non-stop, how he has been watching the creationists since before creation and it's all a Duane Gish Henry Morris rehash mashup and nothing new has come from this since.




If the only positive examples of de-tard, In the Time of Swamp, which we can provide are Stephen Elliot (who I hope will chime in) and one other blogger then I offer the consideration that detard doesn't really happen because of anything we do here or anyone else on the internet.

Consider the tards that have scrawled upon the walls of all the science blogs you have ever read.  Now, say slowly and aloud "Creationists do not change their minds on the basis of arguments on blogs."  Can you say it and believe it?

I'd love to be convinced that i am wrong.  But since motive is important, and apparently one of the limited set of the topics for which "there is a place" here to discuss, I'd like to say that if you think you are performing a social benefit by internetting creationist retards onto their own petard then you are taking yourself too seriously.

And i say that in love, dear tardahols.  Hi, I'm Erasmus, FCD and I am a tardaholic.

Edited by Erasmus, FCD on Sep. 26 2012,09:48

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 26 2012,08:55   

Keiths has provided a reasonable answer
here

Quote
Well, we do it for amusement, of course, but some of us also do it for the onlookers.  Seriously.

I grew up an evangelical creationist and had to grow out of it in my teens.  Those were difficult years. It would have done me a world of good if I could have gone online and seen creationist arguments getting trounced on the Internet.

We may never persuade the hardened tards, but there are kids out there who are brainwashed, like I was, but smart enough to know a good argument when they see one.  They are still reachable.


What I am questioning is the assumption that brainwashed kids are coming to UD and TSZ and reading the esoterically misrepresented obfuscations and costuming of "god dunnit".  

No way are you doing this "for the kids".  Unless you are trying to steal FtK from Rich.

How many kids do you think have read upright bi-tard's  spammiotic horseshit?  I know how many I think have.

What evidence is there that youth de-tard occurs as a consequence of of internet responses to Discovery Institute?

Edited by Erasmus, FCD on Sep. 26 2012,09:56

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
k.e..



Posts: 3058
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 26 2012,09:23   

Dear lord man have you lost your marbles?

If what you are suggesting were possible, it could be worse than the end of the British Raj in India.



Think of all that privelage wasted on the great unwashed?

Free thinking isn't for THEM.

What you need my boy is a good round with Mr Leathers.

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"I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his clown DaveTard suit" dogdidit
"Abbie Smith (ERV) who's got to be the most obnoxious arrogant snot I've ever seen except for when I look in a mirror" DAVE TARD
"ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 3607
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 26 2012,09:41   

I think of UD as the Wedge Document for any future Dover trial. There was a year or so after Dover (AD?) When UD tred to maintain the fiction that they were about science rather religion, but that is gone.

The Adam and Eve fiasco was icing.

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”let’s not make a joke of ourselves.”

Pat Robertson

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 26 2012,09:53   

Quote (midwifetoad @ Sep. 26 2012,10:41)
I think of UD as the Wedge Document for any future Dover trial. There was a year or so after Dover (AD?) When UD tred to maintain the fiction that they were about science rather religion, but that is gone.

The Adam and Eve fiasco was icing.

agreed.

and you know that they won't de-tard.  even gpuccio aint gonna de-tard.  

and as a tardaholic i am happy to say that I am glad there will always be tards to lick.

but do you think that daily internetting them into hilarious logical contradictions, or goading them to deny empirical science solely on the basis of their magick beliefs, is providing a social benefit.  

I don't think so, but in this thread I would like for people to provide examples of de-tarding.  What we should want to do is to determine whether there is any correlation between de-tard and the strength and presentation of arguments offered against some form of creationism.  

Because I don't think anyone is going to provide much of that.  And I note that I am not denying that de-tard is possible, I am questioning specifically the notion that de-tard occurs as a consequence of the valiant deeds of these noble and courteous internetting white-knight defenders of science.

anyone have anything empirical?  or hell, testimony?  I can tell you how I de-tarded but it's the same old shit for you too probably.  I think PZ's "why i am OP" shitkick is lamer than all hells and i never read his blag anyway but my prediction* is that if you compiled them all that the motiviation for those de-tards have very little to do with seriously considering internet arguments with tards

*where "prediction" = "speculation"

Edited by Erasmus, FCD on Sep. 26 2012,10:55

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Soapy Sam



Posts: 536
Joined: Jan. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 26 2012,10:02   

Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Sep. 26 2012,08:47)
crossposted to TSZ thread
 
Quote


I was thinking of stephen, wasn't aware of mandi.  

so we have one good example of someone de-tarding within the history of this board.  

what we still haven't demonstrated is whether that de-tard was

 
Quote
on the basis of [your] online dialogue


It's hard to imagine ID without the internet, indeed that is about the only place it exists.  

A theoretically possible mythic beast that is often hailed in story and song, but all reports and observations of this purported being have turned out to be the rotting corpse of Creationism, being animated by dominionist political tools.

Mike Elzinga likes to toodle about this non-stop, how he has been watching the creationists since before creation and it's all a Duane Gish Henry Morris rehash mashup and nothing new has come from this since.




If the only positive examples of de-tard, In the Time of Swamp, which we can provide are Stephen Elliot (who I hope will chime in) and one other blogger then I offer the consideration that detard doesn't really happen because of anything we do here or anyone else on the internet.

Consider the tards that have scrawled upon the walls of all the science blogs you have ever read.  Now, say slowly and aloud "Creationists do not change their minds on the basis of arguments on blogs."  Can you say it and believe it?

I'd love to be convinced that i am wrong.  But since motive is important, and apparently one of the limited set of the topics for which "there is a place" here to discuss, I'd like to say that if you think you are performing a social benefit by internetting creationist retards onto their own petard then you are taking yourself too seriously.

And i say that in love, dear tardahols.  Hi, I'm Erasmus, FCD and I am a tardaholic.

I think you're right - I talk as if I think minds can be changed, but I certainly don't believe it, and I don't do it in the hope of 'saving' someone. I just like ideas, and argue for (what I see as) good ones and against (what I see as) bad ones. No point being cleverer than the rest of the world if you don't get a chance to show it!  ;)

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If hail is made out of ice and ice came from ice via water, then hail is made out of ice. Joe G

BTW, when you make little jabs like “I thought basic logic was one thing UDers could handle,” you come off looking especially silly when you turn out to be wrong. - Barry Arrington

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3350
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 26 2012,10:05   

I don't know if this helps, but if every time tard appears, it gets hammered, then anyone who looks for it will see the counter points.

I don't have any examples of this being the case, but I sure as hell don't want to see tard being promoted without counterpoints.

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Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5379
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 26 2012,10:19   

I'll say that I de-tarded slowly, in the early '90s, before there was much of a public internet presence. It definitely began before I was surfing the web.

After having been tossed out of BlowJobU, I spent some time with my mom, who I hadn't seen but once since I was 5. That meant running into my Uncle Bob, a loud and rather strident atheist and anti-theist. I didn't listen much to what he said at the time, but my BJU experience was festering, and our really passionate arguments were not helpful to my faith. It was probably years later, once I was no longer calling myself a Christian (probably still a theist of the vaguest sort though) maybe, when some of the things he said began to sink in. I'm old and didn't keep a play-by-play journal, sadly.

But all that said, it was bumping into the BadAstronomy website (which led in turn to the discovery of the Panda's Thumb just about when the Dover trial started) that got me sorted out on critical thinking, science, religious belief, etc. And knowing how way leads on to way, here I am, sighing ages and ages hence, as it were.

Did I de-tard online? Hmmm.. probably not so much. In that sense, I'd say that my experience is a data point in 'Ras' favor. But online discussions certainly catalyzed the last bit of the reaction.

Edited to reverse the order of the last two sentences for the sake of clarity.

Edited by Lou FCD on Sep. 26 2012,11:23

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Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

Work-friendly photography
NSFW photography

   
keiths



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Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 26 2012,11:11   

Detardation rarely involves a 'road to Damascus' moment. More often it's a gradual process unfolding over multiple years with multiple causes, as in Lou's (and my) case.

What happens is that the cognitive dissonance builds up until it crosses the threshold of intolerability.  At this point the victim must shed some of his or her more tardacious beliefs in order to get comfortably back below the threshold.  Things stabilize for a while until the CD creeps back up above the threshold again and more tardaciousness must be jettisoned.

No single factor, including online dialogue, is decisive, but they all contribute to the process.

My point is that although we cross swords with the tards primarily for fun, it's worthwhile to argue carefully and with an eye toward the audience.  We are adding straws to the camel's back.

Edited by keiths on Sep. 26 2012,09:51

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And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number.  -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 26 2012,11:19   

Quote
My point is that although we cross swords with the tards primarily for fun, its worthwhile to argue carefully and with an eye toward the audience.  We are adding straws to the camel's back.


I am suggesting that this is more or less equivalent to a religious belief.  It seems for those who hold it, that it *must* be true.

But there is precious little evidence that the camel's back breaks on account of straws.

I admit it's hard to get a handle on this because (like you point out) de-tard happens gradually.  But this may be for social/psychological reasons rather than the development or maturation of a robust understanding of how the claims of particular species of tard are contradicted by the empirical evidence.

I think when you say "it's worthwhile to argue carefully with an eye towards the audience" that the "worth" is something you personally value, like intellectual integrity, and not a social benefit of say "less tard in the world".

Absolutely agreed that constructing an argument is a pleasurable activity, and fully agreed that T.A.R.D. warrioring can keep you sharp.  But, so what? It doesn't reduce the amount of tard in the world (it multiplies it) and i think it doesn't reduce the number of creationists in the world either.

tone trolling is lame i don't care if it is joe felsenstein doing it.

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
keiths



Posts: 2041
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 26 2012,11:38   

To observe someone in flagrante detardo, check out JLAfan2001 in this thread at UD.

Note the lame attempts by the UDers to assuage his or her doubts.

Best wishes to you, JLAfan2001.

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And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number.  -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 26 2012,11:51   

Quote (keiths @ Sep. 26 2012,12:38)
To observe someone in flagrante detardo, check out JLAfan2001 in this thread at UD.

Note the lame attempts by the UDers to assuage his or her doubts.

Best wishes to you, JLAfan2001.

your sock detector doesn't go off on that thread?

mine does!  If i were to sock up and go visiting the tardbin that is precisely the hat I would wear.

 
Quote

77
JLAfan2001September 2, 2012 at 11:08 am

Timaeus

Sorry for the late reply. I think tjguy echoes my thoughts as you already know. Yes, I am beginning to reject the faith primarily based on what science is uncovering but also what you are bringing up too. You seem to reject a literal reading of Genesis while others don’t. What makes your reading more valid than a literalist? If we all have our different views of scripture then where does truth lie in all of it? It becomes as subjective as atheism. Why does CS Lewis or GK Chesterton have it right and Ham or Morris doesn’t? I had no idea that ID proponents reject the flood. That makes me question the bible even more. Why do we accept the creation and flood accounts as stories and not the gospels? Jesus was real, sure, but maybe the accounts are exaggerated especially if they were written some 40 years later. This is why athiests laugh at theists. The evidence is piling up that the bible isn’t true and theists continue to make excuses. If Adam and Eve was mythical then why did Jesus die? If not for penal substitution then why? I can give you my email address but I’m almost looking for you to convince me now that Christianity is right rather than looking to change what I believe. What makes you so convinced that God is real?




If i am wrong I would love to know!  JLAfan2001 you out there?

ETA:  note the mastery of the tard, JLAfan2001 convinces several different posters to write an enormous amount of material in response to several innocently posed questions or comments.  classic tard mining tactic to expose the seams quickly and to allow the continuous mining machine to strategically reposition in order to auger the deepest possible amount of tard from the face of the deposit.

ETAA:  I don't have a method for detecting false-positives here so maybe this is confirmation bias.  After all, Poe and it is UD.  But I'd just say, further, that if JLAfan is real (and my general de-tard hypothesis is correct) then his propensity to question is what is driving de-tard, not so much as the answers.

Edited by Erasmus, FCD on Sep. 26 2012,12:59

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
keiths



Posts: 2041
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 26 2012,12:18   

Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Sep. 26 2012,09:19)
I am suggesting that this is more or less equivalent to a religious belief.  It seems for those who hold it, that it *must* be true.

Them's fightin' words, 'Ras. Swords or pistols?  Or Royal Wulffs?
Quote
But there is precious little evidence that the camel's back breaks on account of straws.

I was quite happy as a kid with my creationism and my Christianity. I had no reason to abandon either, and plenty of reasons not to.  Logic and evidence made the difference.

Don't forget what a cocoon many young evangelicals live in.  The Internet is often the first place they encounter reasonable, intelligent people who don't believe the horseshit. I think it's a very good thing that when they go to UD or similar places, they see that it's the godless evilutionists who are making the intelligent, sensible arguments.

Edited by keiths on Sep. 26 2012,10:19

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And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number.  -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
Amadan



Posts: 1268
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 26 2012,12:19   

Tard is an attribute of Movement Conservatism. People do not leave Movement Conservatism because someone explains that 2 + 2 does not equal Baby Jesus. They leave it because they change their perception of the leading figures, because they are drawn to life in the real world, because they cease to identify with their peers as strongly as they used to, because they are not naturally susceptible to authoritarianism, or for a variety of other reasons.

Mocking and debunking tard is a good healthy pastime that might occasionally reinforce latent doubts in a few fundies, but I'd be pretty sure that those most likely to harbour those doubts are, at best, onlookers rather than participants. I would say that the strongest impetus for detardation comes from within the fundie tent rather than from outside.

I hope nobody ever classifies tard-baiting as anything other than a sport. Nothing would kill the thrill as thoroughly as ascribing notions of 'social benefit' (or even 'community service' - which brings up connotations of scrubbing off graffiti and of the Probation Act).

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"People are always looking for natural selection to generate random mutations" - Densye  4-4-2011
JoeG BTW dumbass- some variations help ensure reproductive fitness so they cannot be random wrt it.

   
Glen Davidson



Posts: 752
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 26 2012,12:41   

Josh McDowell famously said:

 
Quote
“Now here is the problem,” said McDowell, “going all the way back, when Al Gore invented the Internet [he said jokingly], I made the statement off and on for 10-11 years that the abundance of knowledge, the abundance of information, will not lead to certainty; it will lead to pervasive skepticism. And, folks, that’s exactly what has happened. It’s like this. How do you really know, there is so much out there… This abundance [of information] has led to skepticism. And then the Internet has leveled the playing field [giving equal access to skeptics].”
Read more at http://www.christianpost.com/news.......dQHa.99


It does appear that atheism has at least gained energy from the internet, but not so clear that it has especially gained much for science or shown much more than that a lot of them aren't much better than fundamentalists.  Not that I care, I'm just godless, not really concerned about others' godlessness.

Still, I like to see McDowell at least scared of the internet.  WTF does he really know, though?  I don't know, it may be that the less ignorant tards really might have a better handle on whether or not the web is a serious weapon against their ignorance, however it'll never be easy to trust what they say.

Then there's the question of snark about creationism/ID by commenters really has any effect, even IF the web overall diminishes the tard.  Sure, the information about evolution is out there, it's just that good information coming from universities and places like Talkorigins might be the real powerhouses, not sport had at the expense of tards.

What I think is likely the case is that politicians contemplating the value to their careers of mandating the Dark Ages probably do fear the gibes and contempt of net denizens.  Plus, I rather suspect that the possible impact of a travesty like Expelled was diminished by the fisking it took on the internets, especially since it was so Godwinesque and generally stupid twaddle.  

On the whole there seems little possible downside to exposing the idiocy of ID/creationism, but it's still not so clear that there's a whole lot of upside, either.

Glen Davidson

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http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p....p

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of coincidence---ID philosophy

   
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 26 2012,13:36   

Quote
Them's fightin' words, 'Ras. Swords or pistols?  Or Royal Wulffs?


i was hoping we would have a go at it but you are too violent, darwinist.  i aint no puppy. this is what it will look like, a sissy slapfest only we'll make out afterwards



Quote
I think it's a very good thing that when they go to UD or similar places, they see that it's the godless evilutionists who are making the intelligent, sensible arguments.


ahem, "it's the godless evilutionists who are making the intelligent, sensible arguments [in your perception]"

I happen to share your perception, for reasons that reach back to why we value science as the way of knowing.  Most of the tards at UD would disagree with this perception, and do.

I suggest that to this fresh-faced young fish these tard wars are opaque.  There is no moral or ethical high ground when you are wrestling a pig, any more than there is when you are discussing science with a creationist.

Just because you value logic and evidence now, post-de-tard, doesn't imply that this why you de-tarded.

We often take it for granted that the direction of causality is as you describe, but I think we do that on the basis of a miniscule or absent amount of evidence.  So far we have only provided 2 cases of de-tarding In The Time of Swamp.  And an absolute shit ton of tard has gone through the pipes in that time

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 26 2012,13:41   

Glen, the Expelled case is very interesting to consider in light of De-tard hypotheses

How many people have you seen say "Well I was convinced at first but then I read Expelled Exposed and now I changed my mind"

People who were susceptible to Expelled, IMO, were not likely to detard in the first place.  But I could be very wrong about this!  Anyone have any linkies to folks who rejected expelled on the basis of internetting?

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
keiths



Posts: 2041
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 26 2012,14:13   

Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Sep. 26 2012,11:36)
Just because you value logic and evidence now, post-de-tard, doesn't imply that this why you de-tarded.

I think you're misunderestimating the power of logic and evidence.  People do sometimes change their minds for no reason other than "old belief doesn't make sense; new one does".

In my case, one of the things that got the ball rolling was arguing religion with a Mormon friend.  I would come up with these knockdown arguments against Mormonism,  only to realize that the same arguments were fatal to my own evangelical faith.

Add thirty years or so, and here I am in the fever swamp with the rest of you crocodiles.

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And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number.  -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
Glen Davidson



Posts: 752
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 26 2012,14:49   

I decided to see if the NCSE had any data on the effect of media fighting creationism.  I didn't bother to see if there was anything on web snarks, of course, but there is something on the effect of Judgment Day upon college students.

Doesn't tell us all that much about how the general public is affected, which I suspect was a good deal less (not many watched, and one wonders how many of those weren't already decidedly in either of the two main factions).  But then, laughing at creationists on the web is more likely to be affecting college students, too, than the general public.

Anyhow, there are few data out there at all, and at least this is something real, however limited.

Glen Davidson

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http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p....p

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of coincidence---ID philosophy

   
midwifetoad



Posts: 3607
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 26 2012,15:45   

I see only one really good reason for engaging in the argument regarding design, and that is self-education.

Although there is a lot of repetition in the online debate, I find that the creationist quote mining occasionally brings up nuggets that I haven't encountered or don't fully understand. So I have to read about them. Sometimes this takes weeks or months. Sometimes there are layers of understanding.

The other aspect of self-education is learning to express the argument.

I see this as a win-win situation. Regardless of whether the onlookers learn anything, I do.

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”let’s not make a joke of ourselves.”

Pat Robertson

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 26 2012,15:50   

Quote (Glen Davidson @ Sep. 26 2012,15:49)
I decided to see if the NCSE had any data on the effect of media fighting creationism.  I didn't bother to see if there was anything on web snarks, of course, but there is something on the effect of Judgment Day upon college students.

Doesn't tell us all that much about how the general public is affected, which I suspect was a good deal less (not many watched, and one wonders how many of those weren't already decidedly in either of the two main factions).  But then, laughing at creationists on the web is more likely to be affecting college students, too, than the general public.

Anyhow, there are few data out there at all, and at least this is something real, however limited.

Glen Davidson

very interesting.  thanks!  i wonder what it would look like if you followed up a year or two later.

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 26 2012,15:51   

Quote (midwifetoad @ Sep. 26 2012,16:45)
I see only one really good reason for engaging in the argument regarding design, and that is self-education.

Although there is a lot of repetition in the online debate, I find that the creationist quote mining occasionally brings up nuggets that I haven't encountered or don't fully understand. So I have to read about them. Sometimes this takes weeks or months. Sometimes there are layers of understanding.

The other aspect of self-education is learning to express the argument.

I see this as a win-win situation. Regardless of whether the onlookers learn anything, I do.

agreed.  and learning how to insult your opponent graciously is an important skill!  LOL

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
JohnW



Posts: 2319
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 26 2012,16:01   

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ Sep. 26 2012,13:51)
Quote (midwifetoad @ Sep. 26 2012,16:45)
I see only one really good reason for engaging in the argument regarding design, and that is self-education.

Although there is a lot of repetition in the online debate, I find that the creationist quote mining occasionally brings up nuggets that I haven't encountered or don't fully understand. So I have to read about them. Sometimes this takes weeks or months. Sometimes there are layers of understanding.

The other aspect of self-education is learning to express the argument.

I see this as a win-win situation. Regardless of whether the onlookers learn anything, I do.

agreed.  and learning how to insult your opponent graciously is an important skill!  LOL

As is learning when not to bother being gracious*.



*Yes, Joe.  That would be you.

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Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it.
- Robert Byers

  
Soapy Sam



Posts: 536
Joined: Jan. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 26 2012,16:24   

Quote (midwifetoad @ Sep. 26 2012,15:45)
The other aspect of self-education is learning to express the argument.

I see this as a win-win situation. Regardless of whether the onlookers learn anything, I do.

+1. There are probably better ways of gaining an education, but my understanding of the role of sex, 'search space', entropy, protein motifs, the structure and mechanism of the genetic code, speciation, the selection/drift continuum, and many other things besides, have been enhanced greatly by watching Creationists bullshit their way through the material, and engaging the debate myself. Even Joe has provided insight, despite - rather because of - being so obviously, consistently and blisteringly wrong. Shit arguments can lead to better ones.

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If hail is made out of ice and ice came from ice via water, then hail is made out of ice. Joe G

BTW, when you make little jabs like “I thought basic logic was one thing UDers could handle,” you come off looking especially silly when you turn out to be wrong. - Barry Arrington

  
MichaelJ



Posts: 455
Joined: June 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 26 2012,16:31   

I agree that being here hones our own skills. I think that starting somebody on the path of reality probably occurs elsewhere. It could be a creationist commenting in a blog on sewing or cameras etc.

I think these people aren't as committed and because we have heard all of the arguments before it usually means that they shut up after a couple of exchanges or say something lame like "I still believe it anyway".

What I have noticed over the years is that if a creationist pipes up now it isn't just me but they usually get snarky comments from a bunch of other people. I think that the internet can be a lonely place for creationists if they venture out of their friendly confines.

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 3607
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 26 2012,18:15   

That's interesting, because I have never felt lonely being the only evo on a hostile site.

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”let’s not make a joke of ourselves.”

Pat Robertson

  
Soapy Sam



Posts: 536
Joined: Jan. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 26 2012,18:46   

Quote (midwifetoad @ Sep. 26 2012,18:15)
That's interesting, because I have never felt lonely being the only evo on a hostile site.

Not lonely, but it can be damned hard to offer sensible, thought-out and researched answers to a large, baying crowd detecting fresh meat who consider the entire gamut fair game and themselves as expert as one would need to be. Trying to be honest and accurate - and being called a cowardly liar for your trouble! - takes a lot more effort than just saying stuff.

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If hail is made out of ice and ice came from ice via water, then hail is made out of ice. Joe G

BTW, when you make little jabs like “I thought basic logic was one thing UDers could handle,” you come off looking especially silly when you turn out to be wrong. - Barry Arrington

  
Tracy P. Hamilton



Posts: 1239
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 26 2012,20:14   

Reminds me of the old days.  The not so old days, every Fall you would get new freshman at Cedarville college posting to this new-fangled talk.origins electronic thingy, with all of the printed crap from the faux scientists Morris and Gish.

They still publish Acts and Facts.  Jeebus, talk about being out of touch.  Almost as comical as Dishonesty Institute facebook.  God knows what their tweets are like.

Edited by Tracy P. Hamilton on Sep. 26 2012,20:14

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"Following what I just wrote about fitness, you’re taking refuge in what we see in the world."  PaV

"The simple equation F = MA leads to the concept of four-dimensional space." GilDodgen

"We have no brain, I don't, for thinking." Robert Byers

  
Tracy P. Hamilton



Posts: 1239
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 26 2012,20:18   

For the record, I de-tarded in 1980 AND I can drink all the beer.  Having about 20 oz of this: http://www.ratebeer.com/beer....1

12%

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"Following what I just wrote about fitness, you’re taking refuge in what we see in the world."  PaV

"The simple equation F = MA leads to the concept of four-dimensional space." GilDodgen

"We have no brain, I don't, for thinking." Robert Byers

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 26 2012,20:23   

Quote (Soapy Sam @ Sep. 26 2012,19:46)
Quote (midwifetoad @ Sep. 26 2012,18:15)
That's interesting, because I have never felt lonely being the only evo on a hostile site.

Not lonely, but it can be damned hard to offer sensible, thought-out and researched answers to a large, baying crowd detecting fresh meat who consider the entire gamut fair game and themselves as expert as one would need to be. Trying to be honest and accurate - and being called a cowardly liar for your trouble! - takes a lot more effort than just saying stuff.

it's important to remember that it's all about the LULZ

pretending like there is some sort of substance to critique therefore good faith internetting discussion is possible with ID creationists is a huge error IMO

that's a very different thing from fisking the tard.

look at wes on dembski:  fisks the tard, brutally and without remorse, in print, with citations and leaves it up for dembski to run away from.

that's a totally different from trying to get KF to admit he is a lying dooshbag on UD where he can be lord of the flies gilligan bob marley gk chesterton version.

So, although I may have not been as clear on this in this thread as I was in my head, i think fisking the tard is great.  i guess what i am getting at is that there are a lot of smart people wasting a great deal of time and effort to fruitlessly yet systematically expose the Wizard in the arguments made by some very obtuse, dishonest and stubborn stupid fucking creationists.

And I have done it too.  And I hopefully will in the future.  But I am about convinced that "wasting a great deal of time and effort" is a pretty good descriptor, if your objective is to detard more tards.

oh shit this is now framing

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
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