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  Topic: The DI's latest martyr:  Guillermo Gonzalez< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 24 2007,18:20   

Quote
If GG won a court case over this based on religious discrimination, wouldn’t that ruling be helpful in future cases where ID proponents were claiming it as science?


damn fine question, and one that everybody was at least thinking.

It would sure seem to be the case, if it weren't already blatantly obvious from Kitzmiller (which it is).

we all know the IDiots wanna have their cake and eat it too, but it just don't work that way.

In fact, reversing your question:

Since Dover conclusively proved that ID ISN'T science, it would seem that the ONLY way for GG to challenge the tenure decision IS by claiming ID to be religion.

BTW, it doesn't matter.  If he brings the ID issue up as a reason for tenure denial at all, he'll lose anyway.

bottom line:

he plans to be a martry and make money that way, just like Dembski.

He has no real desire for tenure at this point.

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"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 27 2007,11:40   

O'Leary:
Quote
Here at Uncommon Descent, Bill Dembski points out an instance where Hector Avalos, an atheist religion prof who is Gonzalez’s nemesis, appears to have coyly inflated a member magazine article into a journal article on astronomy.

Link
Erm, I thought that was all cleared up? Heh.
Quote
Of course, Avalos is entitled to his opinions - on some of which I may well dine out, so I certainly don’t want the little crank suppressed on that account. Besides, the Bible always changes more lives when people try to suppress it.

Even the loons at UD generally ignore her. 0 comments is typical for O'Leary nowdays.

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I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



Posts: 2560
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 27 2007,15:56   

Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ May 27 2007,11:40)
O'Leary: Here at Uncommon Descent, Bill Dembski points out an instance where Hector Avalos, an atheist religion prof



Besides, the Bible always changes more lives when people try to suppress it.

But, ya know, ID ain't about religion.  No sirree Bob.  It's just them lying atheist darwinists (and activist judges) who say it is.  It ain't based on no particular religious doctrines or sources, no way, no how.

(snicker)  (giggle)

--------------
Editor, Red and Black Publishers
www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

  
stevestory



Posts: 8825
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 02 2007,15:21   

Some new info from Panda's Thumb:

Quote
   The Des Moines Register reported Thursday that university records showed that Gonzalez had raised significantly less research and grant money than his peers in the Department of Physics and Astronomy.

   Iowa State has sponsored $22,661 in outside grant money for Gonzalez since July 2001, records show. In that same time period, Gonzalez’s peers in physics and astronomy secured an average of $1.3 million by the time they were granted tenure.


Jesus.

linky goodness

   
Richardthughes



Posts: 10071
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 02 2007,15:27   

Quote (stevestory @ June 02 2007,15:21)
Some new info from Panda's Thumb:

Quote
   The Des Moines Register reported Thursday that university records showed that Gonzalez had raised significantly less research and grant money than his peers in the Department of Physics and Astronomy.

   Iowa State has sponsored $22,661 in outside grant money for Gonzalez since July 2001, records show. In that same time period, Gonzalez’s peers in physics and astronomy secured an average of $1.3 million by the time they were granted tenure.


Jesus.

linky goodness

Bwahahahahahahahahaha.


Come on DI, sponsor your man!

[DI] Oh Noes!!!!!1111 U can only has monies 4 bringing childrens 2 Jebus/ K bai [/DI]

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"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
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stevestory



Posts: 8825
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 02 2007,19:05   



http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/06/the_swooning_begins.php

   
Richardthughes



Posts: 10071
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 02 2007,19:15   

Best comment ever?

http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelli....-123511

Quote


jpark320

06/02/2007

5:58 pm
Hopefully this will be the catalyst to expose Atheist/Secular humanist for who they are…

Or the Rapture -

Not a good sign for any person who denies Darwin and wants to go to academia


Or the rapture! I wet my undercrackers.

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 02 2007,20:34   

Ooh, check out FTK's inane PT comments on this!:

Quote
Maybe he wasn’t up to par, but it doesn’t matter.

No matter WHAT he did, after he became associated with the ID movement he was finished.

Who ya kiddin?


Translated: "okay, I admit there were loads of totally valid reasons not to tenure him, but you STILL discriminated against him because you don't like ID!"

Wow. Just, wow.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 02 2007,20:38   

Quote (stevestory @ June 02 2007,19:05)


http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/06/the_swooning_begins.php

Who is 'Galapagos Finch', and is (s)he responsible for the swell graphics?

Bet that image made Heddle wince.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
stevestory



Posts: 8825
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 02 2007,20:42   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ June 02 2007,21:34)
Ooh, check out FTK's inane PT comments on this!:

 
Quote
Maybe he wasn’t up to par, but it doesn’t matter.

No matter WHAT he did, after he became associated with the ID movement he was finished.

Who ya kiddin?


Translated: "okay, I admit there were loads of totally valid reasons not to tenure him, but you STILL discriminated against him because you don't like ID!"

Wow. Just, wow.

Because my powers are useless at Panda's Thumb and I can't see her IP address over there I was kinda hoping that comment wasn't made by FTK, but somebody spoofing her to make her look bad.

Assuming the comment is real for the sake of argument, I'm not sure what she'd want us to do. Affirmative Action for ID supporters who don't qualify for jobs?

   
silverspoon



Posts: 123
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: June 02 2007,20:47   

Quote (Richardthughes @ June 02 2007,19:15)
Best comment ever?

http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelli....-123511

 
Quote


jpark320

06/02/2007

5:58 pm
Hopefully this will be the catalyst to expose Atheist/Secular humanist for who they are…

Or the Rapture -

Not a good sign for any person who denies Darwin and wants to go to academia


Or the rapture! I wet my undercrackers.

jpark320 deserves cash for that one. What a comedic genius.

--------------
Grand Poobah of the nuclear mafia

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 02 2007,20:47   

Quote (stevestory @ June 02 2007,20:42)
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ June 02 2007,21:34)
Ooh, check out FTK's inane PT comments on this!:

 
Quote
Maybe he wasn’t up to par, but it doesn’t matter.

No matter WHAT he did, after he became associated with the ID movement he was finished.

Who ya kiddin?


Translated: "okay, I admit there were loads of totally valid reasons not to tenure him, but you STILL discriminated against him because you don't like ID!"

Wow. Just, wow.

Because my powers are useless at Panda's Thumb and I can't see her IP address over there I was kinda hoping that comment wasn't made by FTK, but somebody spoofing her to make her look bad.

Well, I suppose we should ask her if that gem was hers, but if it was a parody, it was certainly created by someone who's completely mastered her style...

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 02 2007,20:52   

Quote
Assuming the comment is real for the sake of argument, I'm not sure what she'd want us to do. Affirmative Action for ID supporters who don't qualify for jobs?


I suppose so. I guess FTK thinks that universities should tenure unqualified ID supporters just to be nice.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Jasper



Posts: 76
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: June 02 2007,21:03   

I don't think that was Forthekids on PT.

The "Who ya kiddin?" line is one used by a particularly prolific commenter who has been polluting the discourse under various screen names at RedStateRabble, several different ScienceBlogs, and kcfs.org.

  
stevestory



Posts: 8825
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 02 2007,21:04   

It would be interesting to try FTK's argument in court.

Lawyer: "Your honor, maybe my client is guilty. But even if he wasn't, that meanie prosecutor would Still want to convict him!"
Judge: "Did you even go to law school?"

Jasper:
Yeah, it's probably that Emmanuel Goldstein jerk.

   
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: June 02 2007,22:02   

Sigh...it wasn't me.  No doubt it was the Goldstein crew...sounds just like him/them.  This is about the 5th time someone has alerted me to someone ~borrowing~ my name.

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"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
stevestory



Posts: 8825
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 02 2007,22:10   

The Goldstein guy is banned for numerous violations, and especially for stealing names. He's one of the worst creationists.

   
Dr.GH



Posts: 1950
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: June 02 2007,22:11   

Quote
If GG won a court case over this based on religious discrimination, wouldn’t that ruling be helpful in future cases where ID proponents were claiming it as science?

I don't think so.  Gonzalez would have to show that his "religion" of IDC prevented him from writing grants, or publishing papers and inspite of that the government had an obligation to give him a lifetime (well paided) job.

I doubt he could make that argument work, and the DI would drop him cold.

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"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5375
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 02 2007,22:12   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ June 02 2007,20:34)
Ooh, check out FTK's inane PT comments on this!:

Quote
Maybe he wasn’t up to par, but it doesn’t matter.

No matter WHAT he did, after he became associated with the ID movement he was finished.

Who ya kiddin?


Translated: "okay, I admit there were loads of totally valid reasons not to tenure him, but you STILL discriminated against him because you don't like ID!"

Wow. Just, wow.

Y'know my first thought about that was:

"Yeah, but it could have been a real bunch of Marines prayin' like that."

--------------
Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

Work-friendly photography
NSFW photography

   
"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



Posts: 2560
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 03 2007,08:54   

Quote (Ftk @ June 02 2007,22:02)
Sigh...it wasn't me.  No doubt it was the Goldstein crew...sounds just like him/them.  This is about the 5th time someone has alerted me to someone ~borrowing~ my name.

Hey FTK, didn't you go storming out all in a huff?

Why are you back?

--------------
Editor, Red and Black Publishers
www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 10071
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 03 2007,13:33   

Quote ("Rev Dr" Lenny Flank @ June 03 2007,08:54)
Quote (Ftk @ June 02 2007,22:02)
Sigh...it wasn't me.  No doubt it was the Goldstein crew...sounds just like him/them.  This is about the 5th time someone has alerted me to someone ~borrowing~ my name.

Hey FTK, didn't you go storming out all in a huff?

Why are you back?

SHE NEVER SCAPED TEH SEXI_HAWT ZONE.

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 03 2007,14:02   

Quote (Richardthughes @ June 03 2007,13:33)
Quote ("Rev Dr" Lenny Flank @ June 03 2007,08:54)
Quote (Ftk @ June 02 2007,22:02)
Sigh...it wasn't me.  No doubt it was the Goldstein crew...sounds just like him/them.  This is about the 5th time someone has alerted me to someone ~borrowing~ my name.

Hey FTK, didn't you go storming out all in a huff?

Why are you back?

SHE NEVER SCAPED TEH SEXI_HAWT ZONE.

I heard about that. It's supposed to be right outside Funkytown.

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Robert O'Brien



Posts: 348
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 03 2007,19:01   

Quote (stevestory @ June 02 2007,19:05)


http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/06/the_swooning_begins.php

Where is Avalos' dunce cap?

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Caeli enarrant gloriam Dei

    
Richardthughes



Posts: 10071
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 03 2007,19:08   

http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelli....-123659

Quote
I don’t know that this figured in to the tenure denial, but it can’t have helped that GG is the “wrong kind” of Hispanic (Cuban) and Hector Avalos is the “right kind” (Mexican). The secular left has no use for the former, while celebrating the latter.


CAN I HAS FOREIGNERZ? NO. RONG KIND. BAI.

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 03 2007,19:15   

Quote (Robert O'Brien @ June 03 2007,19:01)
Quote (stevestory @ June 02 2007,19:05)


http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/06/the_swooning_begins.php

Where is Avalos' dunce cap?

Not being a dunce, I would imagine he doesn't need one.

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
stevestory



Posts: 8825
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 04 2007,19:42   

Allen MacNeill makes an informed comment at PT

Quote
Comment #182105

Posted by Allen MacNeill on June 4, 2007 7:31 PM (e)

Having been a quasi-tenured senior lecturer at a major research university for over 30 years, I can tell you that (surprise, surprise) it ultimately comes down to money. The emphasis on research grants is primary because that’s what pays the bills. At my institution, the university rakes off over 50% of every dollar that comes in via grant money, calling it “overhead.” And indeed, that’s exactly what it is; paying for laboratory construction and maintenance, equipment purchase and maintenance, paying utility bills, etc. Lecture halls, libraries, and so forth are at least partially funded via student tuition and alumni giving, but research is virtually entirely funded via grant money. At a university like mine, that means that if professors don’t bring in enough grant money to support themselves and their graduate students, that support comes out of the grant support “overhead” earned by their colleagues.

This means that when people come up for tenure review, the amount of grant support they bring into their department is the first and most important thing that everyone considers. “Dead weight” is literally that; it’s a kind of parasitism on the department that can make or break it. If, as the public record shows, Gonzalez brought in minimal grant funding (and the bulk of that was in the form of support from his department/university), while other department members brought in much more, he has literally been parasitizing the other members of his department when he should have been doing exactly the opposite.

This is why it takes several years to make a tenure decision. Department members want to be able to identify trends, so that they can predict what a prospective tenure candidate will do in the future. On the basis of his performance over the critical six-year assistant professor period, Gonzalez showed every indication of being a financial burden on his department, without any corresponding benefits.

If his research had been outstanding (despite low grant funding) and reflected credit on the rest of his department, they might grant him tenure anyway, because that would reflect credit on them and therefore make grant funding more likely for them. This is why people like Isaac Asimov are kept on the faculty of their universities, despite bringing in virtually no grant funding (indeed, Asimov was promoted from associate to full professor, without pay but without debate).

That was clearly not the case with Gonzalez, who made the rest of his department look like a bunch of creationist yahoos. My guess is that the vote against granting tenure was virtually unanimous, and that they are all heaving a great sigh of relief, especially as the professional politicians at the Discovery Instititute daily confirm all of their worst fears.

His department dodged a bullet, IOW, and I’m sure they’re happy they had the opportunity to do so. Gonzalez, OTOH, has been crucified, but by the Discovery Instititute, not his department. The best Gonzalez can hope for now is that the Discovery Instititute can line up some kind of financial support that can provide for him and his family for the foreseeable future. Like Dembski, his career in mainstream academics is effectively over.

There’s an old lesson here; don’t rock the boat until you have tenure. Once you have tenure, generally the only way you can be removed is for malfeasance (which nowdays means having sex with one of your students or stealing departmental funds) or alienating a major contributor and having your departmental line removed from the budget as a result. “Academic freedom,” in other words, is mostly for tenured faculty members and non-tenure-track academics.

Gonzalez abandoned a golden opportunity to establish himself as a credible researcher, apparently prefering to build a career as a guiding light of the “intelligent design” movement. That was a serious strategic error on his part, and he has paid the price. If Gonzalez were in theoretical physics or mathematics, he could still go on to make a name for himself, as he could do them anywhere (a Swiss patent clerk did just that, and not without some midling success). However, Gonzalez’s chosen field requires telescope time and access to high-speed computers to analyze the data obtained from telescope observations. Both of these are now out of reach for him, probably forever. Bad career move, and worse, because now the only people who will pay him anything are the ID supporters, but his academic credibility has now been permanently damaged, with no prospect of earning it back via observational astronomy.

Which means that there is now only one tenured academic in a mainstream university doing even quasi-scientific work in “intelligent design theory” - Michael Behe, at Lehigh University. He has tenure, of course, and so until he retires he can essentially do what he wants…unless he so alienates a major source of funding to his department that the administration decides to eliminate his budget line. The trend for “doing science” among IDers is therefore steeply downhill, and talented people with an open mind and curiosity about the possibilities of design in nature should be re-thinking their career tracks. Showing support for ID is now the kiss of death in mainstream academics, and only those very few who already have tenure and are in secure positions can still publically do so.

As we know from past experience, this does not mean that the ID political machine (as exemplified by the Discovery Institute) will shut down. On the contrary, it will shift into high gear, pumping out more propaganda for as long as its financial supporters will fund it. But as far as penetrating mainstream academics, it’s all over…for now. They will be back, of course, but it will take a generation or more, as it did for ID to take up the cause of “scientific creationism.”

In the interests of full disclosure, I am a non-tenure track professional teacher at a major research university. This means that I come up for reappointment every five years, and as long as I’m doing a decent job teaching, I get reappointed. This leaves me free to do what I want with my free time, as I’m not required to do research. I do some anyway, without the usual restrictions placed on professors.

   
stevestory



Posts: 8825
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 05 2007,16:30   

Interesting bit from Ed Brayton

Quote
Ask yourself this: if an astronomy professor seeking tenure spent his time writing popular books advocating astrology rather than bringing in grants to do actual astronomy research, would a university be justified in not giving him tenure? If so, tell me what the difference is. The only difference I see is that, unlike ID, astrology actually makes specific and testable predictions (which inevitably fail to come true, of course).

   
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4465
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: July 16 2007,00:08   

Ran across this testimony from Dr. Scott Minnich, DI Fellow, in the KvD trial:

Quote

[336]Q. What is significant about research support for a scientist?

[337]A. Well, to be successful and to do experiments you've got to have extramural support and, you know, it's to be likened to running a small business within a research community. You know, I have to pay my graduate students, technicians, pay for supplies, animal care, and there's overhead associated with it as well. So funding is very important.


It's very important for Minnich, I guess because he has it, and completely unimportant for Gonzalez, again because he does not.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
JonF



Posts: 571
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 16 2007,17:34   

I was half-watching Moon Mysteries on Naked Science on  the National Geographic channel, when "award-winning astronomer Guillermo Gonzales" showed up, discussing his calculations of the energy requirements to fling rocks from the Earth to the Moon, and the likelihood of asteroid impacts causing that.

  
JAM



Posts: 503
Joined: July 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 17 2007,11:34   

Quote (Robert O'Brien @ May 13 2007,14:47)
Refusing to grant tenure to Guillermo Gonzalez is clearly ideologically/politically motivated. He has at least 55 publications in his field according to ISI Web of Knowledge, which is more than his most vociferous critics have accomplished.

But how many of those were from his time at Iowa State? A lot of pubs before the first independent position and very few after taking that position is damning.

And how much did he bring in in grants? More to the point, how much indirect?

  
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