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  Topic: The DI's latest martyr:  Guillermo Gonzalez< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
BWE



Posts: 1896
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 15 2007,00:37   

Quote (Dr.GH @ May 14 2007,21:44)
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ May 14 2007,13:31)
If you haven't already done so, see Ed's blog for a good discussion of this, with some very apropos remarks about just how arbitrary the awarding or not rewarding of tenure often/usually is.

What could Brayton ever know about tenure?  He is not eligable, never considered, and never will be.

Gack gack ptuie.  Heddle did have a sensible comment. I was rejected for tenure at one college the same year I cleared the same amount of grant $$ as my salary, received  the board of trustee's "Commendation for Excellence" and was named "Teacher of the Year." I was told that a single tenured faculty member stopped the application by claiming  I "was not very collegal."  Translated that means I objected to his habit of giving good grades for blow-jobs.

Sure there is a personality aspect.  Anybody here work in any large companies?

I'd trade grades for blow jobs. Maybe that's part of the reason I was never tenured.

Hmmm. There may be more to it though.

--------------
Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered
When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it
Look what it's done so far

The Daily Wingnut

   
N.Wells



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(Permalink) Posted: May 15 2007,00:49   

Say that a research university grants tenure to a 30-year-old scientist.  The university is likely to keep that person for another 35 years, which could amount to on the order of 2.5-5 million dollars in salary, fringe benefits, and work space prior to retirement.  Actually, since no one can make you retire any more, you could conceivably add another 15 or so years on to that, adding another 40% to those costs.

A popular teacher at a state university who pulls in 300 students into a large lecture course once a semester will earn their department somewhere around $200,000 to $300,000 per year for that course, depending on how much the university pays the department per enrollee at that course level.  Let's say $240,000 at $400 per student.  In contrast, an unpopular teacher who can only draw 30 students per intro session is only going to earn the department $24,000 per year for two offerings of that course.  Over 35 years that's going to be a difference in $7,560,000 in departmental income.  So a tenure decision is not a minor one, and a department will have a long time to regret a mistake.

Moreover, whomever a department tenures, the department is probably going to be stuck with for the next 35 years.  A single person can quite easily turn a department from being a great place to work to a miserable place.  Someone who carries their share of committee work is to be desired, whereas someone whose trials and tribulations creates committee work just drags everyone down. A good professor pulls in good students and adds to the glory of the department, whereas a bad professor scares the good students away.  People have different strengths in different areas, so one hopes to get a good mix of strengths in a department.  People say tenure is like a marriage (worse, because it's probably more like a plural marriage), but at least in marriages you can get a divorce if things turn ugly.

Thus a lot weighs on a tenure decision besides 'did this person meet the minimum requirements?'  

Among the factors taken into consideration in tenure decisions (besides the numbers of papers published) are $$$ obtained in external funding; where were articles and books published; how many times have the various publications been cited; how many coauthors were involved in publications and grants; what were the candidate's contributions in multi-author works and multiple-investigator grants; how many masters, doctoral, and post-doc students has the candidate mentored; what  senior people in the field but outside your university think of the person's research; professional awards and service; and teaching evaluations by students and fellow faculty.  Along with other stuff.  Shortcomings in almost any of these things could potentially doom a tenure decision.    

To enlarge on the importance of where things are published: the humanities in particular have few ways of assessing the significance of a work (citation records for humanities works tend to be problematic and not comparable), so they have made a finely honed art out of assessing the reputation of the publisher of your book.  This can arise, albeit to a lesser degree, in science as well.  I would guess that a Regnery Press book might well be held against a candidate at a college- or university-level committee: it's sort of sending up a flag that you don't want to be considered a serious scholar.

(My apologies for some repetition of points that others have already made.)

  
slpage



Posts: 349
Joined: June 2004

(Permalink) Posted: May 15 2007,14:38   

I admit, I was granted tenure and I have far fewer publications that Gonzalez (but many more than Wells and Dembski) and have never even received a major research grant (I have received a few small ones).

Then, I am not at a major research institution, do not claim to be or present myself as a major researcher, have not claimed (implicitly or explicitly) to have overturned a major scientific theory or to have provided material support for a fringe ideology.  Nor have I ignored the course catalog description of a class and instead taught my preferred fringe ideology.  

Tenure is no guarantee, even if you publish, even if you have grants.  As others have pointed out, there is much more to it.  While I was in grad school, one of the profs in my dept. was up for tenure.  She had dozens of publications, had recently received a big NSF grant, taught several courses, etc., yet was denied tenure.  I know a major researcher at Harvard that has never received tenure yet has been there for decades.

For the ID crowd to whine about this is to yet again display their intellectual limitations, their spoiled child attitude, and their condescending hubris.

  
Lou FCD



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Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 15 2007,15:29   

Denialism Blog's post on the subject.

Just thought I'd share.

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Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

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Robert O'Brien



Posts: 348
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 15 2007,16:42   

Quote (Ichthyic @ May 15 2007,00:11)
something tells me you constantly attempt to overcompensate for your rather tiny "measuring stick", bobbo.

Maybe I should demonstrate my manhood by teaming up with you and Peezee to pick on another high school student.

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Caeli enarrant gloriam Dei

    
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 15 2007,17:06   

ooh, nice try at deflection, but nobody's biting, bobbo.

bait's too small.

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"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
MidnightVoice



Posts: 380
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 16 2007,17:33   

Quote
P.S. For those of an unfortunately foreign disposition (you have my pity for losing life's great lottery and not being born an Englishman) [snip, snip, blahbiddy blah]We are the best club in the UK and if all goes well this weekend, the best club in Europe.

Quote
Ahem. In Europe, yes, maybe.


And in the Southern Hemisphere it will be a South African Team  :D

Back to tenure:

From the local paper

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/apps....0514050

Supporters of Gonzalez said they think the university denied him tenure, because he was promoting an unpopular idea on college campuses, the theory that some features of life are best explained as products of an intelligent cause, rather than natural selection or random mutation.

“I think if looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it likely is a duck,” said John West, a senior fellow at the Discovery Institute, a Seattle-based organization that supports discussing intelligent design in science classes.

“There are two issues here: academic freedom and the First Amendment. Gonzalez has gained attention for his advocacy of intelligent design as legitimate science in his book, "The Privileged Planet."

More than 400 faculty members at the three public universities have signed petitions since Gonzalez’s book was published that rejected attempts to represent intelligent design as science. None of the statements mention Gonzalez by name.

http://desmoinesregister.com/apps....004

prof appeals denial of tenure

About 12 people have applied for tenure in the past 10 years in the physics and astronomy department, and four of those were denied, said Eli Rosenberg, the chairman of the ISU department of physics and astronomy.

John McCarroll, an ISU spokesman, said tenure is achieved through approval from the candidate's department, the department chairman, a committee within the College of Liberal Arts and Sciences, the dean of the College of Liberal Arts and Sciences, the executive vice president and provost, and the university president.

Gonzalez was denied a favorable vote on each of those levels, he said.

The decision on whether to award tenure is also based on the quality of the faculty member's work, the "impact in the community, how you are being received in the community," Rosenberg said.

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If I fly the coop some time
And take nothing but a grip
With the few good books that really count
It's a necessary trip

I'll be gone with the girl in the gold silk jacket
The girl with the pearl-driller's hands

  
Henry J



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(Permalink) Posted: May 16 2007,21:34   

Quote
“I think if looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it likely is a duck,” said John West, [...]


Seems like DI people should avoid using lines like that, since it could so easily be used against the guy he's defending.

Henry

  
Chris Hyland



Posts: 705
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 16 2007,23:20   

I've never laughed so hard at creationist dishonesty:

Quote
Two of the five active tenured astronomy professors in the department that denied tenure to Guillermo Gonzalez at Iowa State University are connected to a widely-publicized statement that denounces intelligent design as "creationist pseudoscience."

...

Iowa State University has made much of the fact that Dr. Gonzalez's tenure application was rejected starting at the level of his department. Now we know that at least 40% of the tenured faculty in astronomy in his department are connected to a statement that regards intelligent design as "creationist pseudoscience" and insists that "it is scientifically inappropriate and pedagogically irresponsible" for it "to be introduced into… science curricula."


For anyone who doesnt know the statement actually reads:
Quote
It is scientifically inappropriate and pedagogically irresponsible for creationist pseudoscience, including but not limited to "intelligent design," to be introduced into the science curricula of our nation's public schools.
ie nothing to do with teaching at university whatsoever.

I did some investigation of my own and it turns out the project Steve statement also says:

Quote
Evolution is ... a major ... inappropriate and pedagogically irresponsible ... curricula
So it turns out it's a pro-ID statement after all.

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4468
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: May 17 2007,00:10   

Quote

“There are two issues here: academic freedom and the First Amendment. Gonzalez has gained attention for his advocacy of intelligent design as legitimate science in his book, "The Privileged Planet."


A tenure committee should take note of someone advocating a scam as if it were legitimate science.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Robert O'Brien



Posts: 348
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 17 2007,01:08   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ May 17 2007,00:10)
A tenure committee should take note of someone advocating a scam as if it were legitimate science.

I do not think that criticism applies to Guillermo Gonzalez.

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Caeli enarrant gloriam Dei

    
Chris Hyland



Posts: 705
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 17 2007,05:17   

Haha it gets even better:
Quote
Science Professor Expresses Astonishment at Iowa State's Denial of Tenure to Gonzalez
Can you guess what science?
Quote
Dr. Robert J. Marks, Distinguished Professor of Electrical and Computer Engineering at Baylor University

Quote
I went to the Web of Science citation index which is the authority on citations. Only journal papers, not conference papers, are indexed. There are lots of Prof. Gonzalez's papers listed. My jaw dropped when I saw one of his papers has 153 citations and 139 on another. I have sat on oodles of tenure committees at both a large private university and a state research university, chaired the university tenure committee, and have seen more tenure cases than the Pope has Cardinals. This is a LOT of citations for an assistant professor up for tenure.
Right from now on whenever I see a post about this from a creationist I'm going to search for:
Quote
$
and if I don't find anything I'm not going to read it.

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4468
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: May 17 2007,06:18   

Quote (Robert O'Brien @ May 17 2007,01:08)
Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ May 17 2007,00:10)
A tenure committee should take note of someone advocating a scam as if it were legitimate science.

I do not think that criticism applies to Guillermo Gonzalez.

According to the DI, it does. Emphasis added:

Quote

“There are two issues here: academic freedom and the First Amendment. Gonzalez has gained attention for his advocacy of intelligent design as legitimate science in his book, "The Privileged Planet."


--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Dr.GH



Posts: 1954
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(Permalink) Posted: May 17 2007,11:04   

Faculty have a proper concern about the reputation of the school and the consequent effect this has on their students.  I would be more likely to accept a student from schools without creationists teaching than schools where they do.

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"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
Robert O'Brien



Posts: 348
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 17 2007,13:25   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ May 17 2007,06:18)
According to the DI, it does. Emphasis added:

 
Quote

“There are two issues here: academic freedom and the First Amendment. Gonzalez has gained attention for his advocacy of intelligent design as legitimate science in his book, "The Privileged Planet."

You should know as well as anyone that there are two schools in the ID "big tent," one for "biological ID" and one for "cosmological ID." Guillermo Gonzalez is in the latter group, and as far as I know he has not specifically endorsed Of Pandas and People.

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Caeli enarrant gloriam Dei

    
Richardthughes



Posts: 10094
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 17 2007,13:32   

Quote (Robert O'Brien @ May 17 2007,13:25)
Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ May 17 2007,06:18)
According to the DI, it does. Emphasis added:

 
Quote

“There are two issues here: academic freedom and the First Amendment. Gonzalez has gained attention for his advocacy of intelligent design as legitimate science in his book, "The Privileged Planet."

You should know as well as anyone that there are two schools in the ID "big tent," one for "biological ID" and one for "cosmological ID." Guillermo Gonzalez is in the latter group, and as far as I know he has not specifically endorsed Of Pandas and People.

Two schools; one manifesto, BobTard.

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
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Robert O'Brien



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Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 17 2007,13:40   

Quote (Richardthughes @ May 17 2007,13:32)
Two schools; one manifesto, BobTard.

I refuse to lump them all together, DickTard. Guillermo Gonzalez is several steps above the Apostle of Savior-King Moon, for example.

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Caeli enarrant gloriam Dei

    
Richardthughes



Posts: 10094
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 17 2007,13:48   

Quote (Robert O'Brien @ May 17 2007,13:40)
Quote (Richardthughes @ May 17 2007,13:32)
Two schools; one manifesto, BobTard.

I refuse to lump them all together, DickTard. Guillermo Gonzalez is several steps above the Apostle of Savior-King Moon, for example.

Gotcha. Despite the whole DI thing. Nothing like arbitrary Fundy dichotomies. But if he were a Moonie, he'd be bad, no doubt.

You're using less Latin these days.

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Robert O'Brien



Posts: 348
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 17 2007,14:14   

Quote (Richardthughes @ May 17 2007,13:48)
Nothing like arbitrary Fundy dichotomies.

DickTard:

When you use "labels" indiscriminately they lose their force. If I'm a "fundy" then what's this guy

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Caeli enarrant gloriam Dei

    
blipey



Posts: 2061
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(Permalink) Posted: May 17 2007,15:17   

Quote (Robert O'Brien @ May 17 2007,13:25)
Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ May 17 2007,06:18)
According to the DI, it does. Emphasis added:

 
Quote

“There are two issues here: academic freedom and the First Amendment. Gonzalez has gained attention for his advocacy of intelligent design as legitimate science in his book, "The Privileged Planet."

You should know as well as anyone that there are two schools in the ID "big tent," one for "biological ID" and one for "cosmological ID." Guillermo Gonzalez is in the latter group, and as far as I know he has not specifically endorsed Of Pandas and People.

I'm sorry, where was Of Pandas and People in Wes's quote?  You're going to have to show me that evidence card, now Bob.

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But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4468
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: May 17 2007,15:49   

To be fair, the IDC-as-scam link is about the drafts of "Of Pandas and People".

However, the point that Gonzalez may not have explicitly endorsed OPAP doesn't affect the validity of my statement. OPAP is not the only evidence going that IDC is a sham.
Also, some people involved in a Ponzi scheme may sincerely believe that they are engaged in legitimate multi-level marketing business practices; they would still be wrong.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Richardthughes



Posts: 10094
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 17 2007,16:10   

Quote (Robert O'Brien @ May 17 2007,14:14)
Quote (Richardthughes @ May 17 2007,13:48)
Nothing like arbitrary Fundy dichotomies.

DickTard:

When you use "labels" indiscriminately they lose their force. If I'm a "fundy" then what's this guy

Your Dad?

Checked out your blog, BTW.

Latin down 70%, bitterness at Ed Brayton up 35%.

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
silverspoon



Posts: 123
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: May 17 2007,17:58   

Of course Gonzalez could end all the speculations about why he was denied.  ISU’s policies require them to inform him in writing the reasons for his denial.

The negative publicity he’s receiving from all the whining the DI is doing must outweigh any prospects of future employment in his book.  Very strange, coming from such an intelligent fellow.

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Grand Poobah of the nuclear mafia

  
JohnW



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(Permalink) Posted: May 17 2007,18:04   

Quote (silverspoon @ May 17 2007,17:58)
Of course Gonzalez could end all the speculations about why he was denied.  ISU’s policies require them to inform him in writing the reasons for his denial.

The negative publicity he’s receiving from all the whining the DI is doing must outweigh any prospects of future employment in his book.  Very strange, coming from such an intelligent fellow.

The publicity is all but guaranteeing him a tenured position in the Department of Apologetics at some fundie bible college.  Maybe he's taking advice from The Isaac Newton of Farty Noises.

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Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it.
- Robert Byers

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5377
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 17 2007,18:08   

Quote (silverspoon @ May 17 2007,17:58)
Of course Gonzalez could end all the speculations about why he was denied.  ISU’s policies require them to inform him in writing the reasons for his denial.

The negative publicity he’s receiving from all the whining the DI is doing must outweigh any prospects of future employment in his book.  Very strange, coming from such an intelligent fellow.

Playing the martyr is much more conducive to filling the offering plate than doing actual research.  Especially when you know ahead of time that there's no research to do.

--------------
Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

Work-friendly photography
NSFW photography

   
"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



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(Permalink) Posted: May 17 2007,19:03   

Quote (Robert O'Brien @ May 17 2007,13:25)
Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ May 17 2007,06:18)
According to the DI, it does. Emphasis added:

 
Quote

“There are two issues here: academic freedom and the First Amendment. Gonzalez has gained attention for his advocacy of intelligent design as legitimate science in his book, "The Privileged Planet."

You should know as well as anyone that there are two schools in the ID "big tent," one for "biological ID" and one for "cosmological ID." Guillermo Gonzalez is in the latter group, and as far as I know he has not specifically endorsed Of Pandas and People.

Hey Bobbie, in the phrase "cosmological ID", what, uh, does the "ID" stand for . . . . . . . . .  . . . . . ?

--------------
Editor, Red and Black Publishers
www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4468
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: May 17 2007,23:03   

Seems that FtK doesn't like the fact that a tenure committee could pay attention to whether a candidate is promoting a scam.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Richardthughes



Posts: 10094
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 18 2007,10:15   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ May 17 2007,23:03)
Seems that FtK doesn't like the fact that a tenure committee could pay attention to whether a candidate is promoting a scam.

She'd have 'teach the controversy' 2+3 =7 mathematicians in there, too.

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
heddle



Posts: 124
Joined: Nov. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 18 2007,10:20   

JohnW,

Quote
The publicity is all but guaranteeing him a tenured position in the Department of Apologetics at some fundie bible college.


Nope. Most fundie colleges (e.g., BJU, Liberty), require an affirmation of the YEC view. Gonzalez would not qualify.

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Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

  
J-Dog



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Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 18 2007,10:46   

Quote (heddle @ May 18 2007,10:20)
JohnW,

Quote
The publicity is all but guaranteeing him a tenured position in the Department of Apologetics at some fundie bible college.


Nope. Most fundie colleges (e.g., BJU, Liberty), require an affirmation of the YEC view. Gonzalez would not qualify.

Unless you're William Dembski...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Dembski#Recent_developments

Maybe there is room under the big tent for a dis-credited ID Martyr after all at a Liberty, or a Patriot U.

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
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