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  Topic: Philo 4483: Christian Faith and Science, Honest questions from Dembski's students< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
Tom Ames



Posts: 238
Joined: Dec. 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 22 2010,14:06   

Just in case any of WMAD's students are looking for a way to fulfill Course Requirement #4:
Quote

(4) 3,000-word record of interactions with contrary websites, totaling at least 10 posts
and giving URLs for posts — 10 percent positive. Due by last class meeting. This is
where you get to mix it up with people on the other side of the debate over faith and
science. It will open your eyes.


and would like to do so without the dishonesty and pretense that we've seen to date, here is the place to do it.

Two requests:
1. Don't insult our intelligence by pretending that you're not approaching the question from the specific perspective of a particular faith-tradition;

2. At least TRY to engage the substance of what you read. This is an opportunity to ask questions and to learn, not to take a stand in the culture wars.

You're free to say anything, of course (no censors here). However, we all have plenty of experience with the mock-humility that sometimes acts as a cover for self-righteousness. If you approach people here with some amount of GENUINE respect, you'll see that respect reflected back.

Even your classmate DAEVANS is welcome to try again if he or she can be honest and respectful.

"It will open your eyes."

I'll bump this as the last class day--April 28--approaches.

--------------
-Tom Ames

  
bfish



Posts: 267
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 22 2010,14:53   

I think this is a great idea for a topic. Much better to ask questions or make comments without pretending to be something you are not.

  
Dr.GH



Posts: 1950
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 22 2010,14:55   

I promise I'll try very hard to be nice.

--------------
"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2777
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 22 2010,15:01   

Quote (Dr.GH @ Feb. 22 2010,14:55)
I promise I'll try very hard to be nice.

Perhaps we should also repost carlsonjok's timeline here, as a word to the wise...

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
khan



Posts: 1479
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 22 2010,15:25   

Quote (Tom Ames @ Feb. 22 2010,15:06)
Just in case any of WMAD's students are looking for a way to fulfill Course Requirement #4:
 
Quote

(4) 3,000-word record of interactions with contrary websites, totaling at least 10 posts
and giving URLs for posts — 10 percent positive. Due by last class meeting. This is
where you get to mix it up with people on the other side of the debate over faith and
science. It will open your eyes.

Can you supply a link to the course requirements (I'm too lazy to look)?

--------------
"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

  
sledgehammer



Posts: 530
Joined: Sep. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 22 2010,15:31   

Quote (khan @ Feb. 22 2010,13:25)
Can you supply a link to the course requirements (I'm too lazy to look)?

Philo 4483

--------------
The majority of the stupid is invincible and guaranteed for all time. The terror of their tyranny is alleviated by their lack of consistency. -A. Einstein  (H/T, JAD)
If evolution is true, you could not know that it's true because your brain is nothing but chemicals. ?Think about that. -K. Hovind

  
Thought Provoker



Posts: 530
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 22 2010,15:31   

I had to see it for myself.

Here is the link

EDIT - I see Sledgehammer beat me to it.

  
JohnW



Posts: 2207
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 22 2010,15:38   

Quote (Thought Provoker @ Feb. 22 2010,13:31)
I had to see it for myself.

Here is the link

EDIT - I see Sledgehammer beat me to it.

Dr Dr D:
Quote
ACADEMIC INTEGRITY
Plagiarism is the misrepresentation of another's work as one's own. When the professor
concludes that a student has plagiarized an assignment, the student will receive the grade of zero
for the assignment, and the office of the Vice President for Student Affairs will be notified about
the incident. The same actions apply to other acts of academic dishonesty such as cheating on
examinations (see Ethical Conduct section in SWBTS catalog).

I don't see "Make a video about the inner workings of the cell" in the course requirements.  So it looks like Dembski won't get thrown out of his own course.

--------------
Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it.
- Robert Byers

  
Tom Ames



Posts: 238
Joined: Dec. 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 22 2010,16:13   

Quote (Dr.GH @ Feb. 22 2010,12:55)
I promise I'll try very hard to be nice.

My hunch is that it will be a lot easier to be nice to people when they're not insulting my intelligence by pretending to be disinterested observers. Concern trolls piss me off. Concern trolling for credit in one of Dembski's religion classes REALLY pisses me off.

(At the very least we can point DAEVANS and his/her kind to this thread and see what they say for themselves.)

--------------
-Tom Ames

  
Dr.GH



Posts: 1950
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 22 2010,16:31   

Quote (JohnW @ Feb. 22 2010,13:38)
Dr Dr D:
 
Quote
ACADEMIC INTEGRITY
Plagiarism is the misrepresentation of another's work as one's own. When the professor concludes that a student has plagiarized an assignment, the student will receive the grade of zero for the assignment, and the office of the Vice President for Student Affairs will be notified about the incident. The same actions apply to other acts of academic dishonesty such as cheating on examinations (see Ethical Conduct section in SWBTS catalog).

And let's not forget his defense of quotemining when I busted him for it in "Dembski’s Five Questions: Number One." That was in June of 2004. Nobody much paid attention to it until D^3 responded hizself on 26 April 2005, Quoting, Misquoting, Quote-Mining.

This too might have gone unheralded, except that a few months later Jason Rosenhouse wrote about it in Skeptical Enquirer, "Why do Scientists Get So Angry when Dealing with ID Proponents?".

Not surprisingly, nearly all subsequent references are to Jason's piece.

Edited by Dr.GH on Feb. 22 2010,14:34

--------------
"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
J-Dog



Posts: 4360
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 22 2010,16:49   

Doc GH - Thanks for the links, and of course doing all the work in the first place to absolutely nail down the lies told by the lying scumbag that we like to call Dr. Dr. Dembski.

I knew there was a reason why I always think of him as a weasel.*



* No disrespect intended to all proper four-legged weasels.

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
khan



Posts: 1479
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 22 2010,16:52   

"Doctor Doctor give me the news, got a bad case of quote mining youse..."

--------------
"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

  
Tom Ames



Posts: 238
Joined: Dec. 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 22 2010,23:10   

On the off chance that any of Dembski's Philo 4483 students wander over into this Swamp of Immorality, I made an offer to answer their questions on this thread. However, I'd also like to direct a few questions in return to these Dembski students. Here goes:


Dear Student,

You are taking a class called "Christian Faith and Science" which I hope means that you have some interest in learning about how your religion can inform your interest in the natural world, and vice versa. I'd like to think that you might actually have some interest in science beyond its use as a cudgel in the hands of the culture warrior. You might once have thought that you'd become a scientist some day. If that is the case, I think you owe it to yourself to ask a few questions. (Of yourself, but if you're really gutsy, you'll ask these of your professor as well.) And as long as you're answering these questions for yourself, perhaps you would consider shedding some light on them by telling us here what these answers are. Because we've never gotten a straight answer from your professor and his colleagues.

1. Dr. Dembski says of your prospective experience at sites like this that "it will open your eyes". By this I assume he means that there is a hostility and level of disrespect here that is emblematic of the failed worldview we hold. I'd dearly like to know if Dr. Dembski has mentioned anything in class about respectful treatment towards members of the judiciary. In particular, does he show his "Judge Jones with Fart Noises" flash animation with pride?

2. I imagine that Dr. Dembski, as a good apologist, has exhorted you to "speak truth to power" and stand up for what you believe in in the face of withering odds. (My understanding of Christian iconography says that this kind of courage against secular foes is evidence of strength and confidence in one's faith.) Please ask yourself (or Dr. Dembski) why, when it came time to testify in Kitzmiller v Dover he took a pass, choosing to risk letting the defense fail rather than expose his ideas to criticism.

3. In a similar vein, Dr. Dembski has said that some kind of Scientific Conspiracy has suppressed the ideas of his theory of Intelligent Design, via the mechanism of peer review. You might ask him why his own journal, "PCID" languishes for lack of submissions, despite having a very low bar to publication of ideas such as his.

4. Dr. Dembski accuses his perceived opponents of censorship quite a lot, actually. Many of us would like to know how this squares with the fact that the only place that he will engage in discussion of his ideas is among people who he knows agree with him, in fora that he has absolute control over. (This mostly turns out to be blogs, books-for-sale and seminary classrooms.)

5. According to my understanding of Christianity, there is a prohibition against "bearing false witness". Is Dembski's informing on a professor to the state security apparatus because of a second-hand account of his lecture an example of this? Or are some forms of bearing false witness acceptable if they're done to advance the correct political agenda?

6. Whatever does Dr. Dembski mean by "science is the embodiment of the Logos of St. John"? Is there any way to relate this to someone who does not partake in a particular sectarian worldview?

I imagine there will be many more questions, but I'll leave it at that.

My image of the educational environment of a Baptist seminary is, I'm sure, full of stereotypes and misconceptions. I hope that, counter to my conceptions, there is room within the seminary to ask these kinds of questions of yourself and your professors. Meanwhile, if you are in fact interested in science for its own sake, you should be aware of the fact that your professor is a very unreliable source of information. If he ever tried to argue his ideas among practicing scientists, they'd face a withering storm of spontaneously arising mockery. They are provocative in the way that many ideas of mediocre and narcissistic minds are. They are, quite frankly, incoherent babblings.

I've allowed myself some editorial commentary, obviously. My hope is that I've laid my cards on the table, and got it out of my system. Although you're a student of his, I do not start with the assumption that you've bought his snake oil.

If there's anything you genuinely want to know (and if you're not engaged in a drive-by for grades) I, and many others here, will do our best to address your questions respectfully.

--------------
-Tom Ames

  
Dr.GH



Posts: 1950
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 22 2010,23:47   

Tom, I am amazed at your self restraint. I will try (really) to use it as a standard.

--------------
"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
Richardthughes



Posts: 10080
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 22 2010,23:54   

I think it would be helpfull to all if someone could post this at UD.

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Dr.GH



Posts: 1950
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 23 2010,00:32   

Quote (J-Dog @ Feb. 22 2010,14:49)
Doc GH - Thanks for the links, and of course doing all the work in the first place to absolutely nail down the lies told by the lying scumbag that we like to call Dr. Dr. Dembski.

I knew there was a reason why I always think of him as a weasel.*



* No disrespect intended to all proper four-legged weasels.

I recalled that D^3 stated his position somewhere that if he could "quote" an author without changing words, it didn't matter what the author might have intended.

Now, all the crap that post-modernist literary critisim pumps out, is matched by the anti-PoMo crap that gets pumped. That is an argument for another day and another thread.

However, I cannot think of a better example of the worst excesses of PoMo than Dembski- words mean what ever I want them to mean.

Edited by Dr.GH on Feb. 23 2010,08:52

--------------
"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
sledgehammer



Posts: 530
Joined: Sep. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 23 2010,00:37   

Quote (khan @ Feb. 22 2010,14:52)
"Doctor Doctor give me the news, got a bad case of quote mining youse..."

"No pill's gonna cure that shill. Bill's got a bad case of Dover blues"

--------------
The majority of the stupid is invincible and guaranteed for all time. The terror of their tyranny is alleviated by their lack of consistency. -A. Einstein  (H/T, JAD)
If evolution is true, you could not know that it's true because your brain is nothing but chemicals. ?Think about that. -K. Hovind

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3268
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 23 2010,09:10   

I'm gonna get out the popcorn and hope for a couple of students.  Since dawkins' forum is out, they might be hurting for some place to 'engage'...

I guess my biggest question for Dembski is "Why do you have this as a course requirement?  Aren't you afraid that the 1-2% of your students that can think might 'lose their way' when exposed to reality (and truth for that matter, not your truthiness)?"

If I were Dembski, I'd be worried sick about a student asking me a question from this thread.  

Of course, he probably figures out who the smart ones are with a pop-quiz on the first or second class day and then administratively drops them.

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
JohnW



Posts: 2207
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 23 2010,11:15   

Quote (Dr.GH @ Feb. 22 2010,22:32)
Quote (J-Dog @ Feb. 22 2010,14:49)
Doc GH - Thanks for the links, and of course doing all the work in the first place to absolutely nail down the lies told by the lying scumbag that we like to call Dr. Dr. Dembski.

I knew there was a reason why I always think of him as a weasel.*



* No disrespect intended to all proper four-legged weasels.

I recalled that D^3 stated his position somewhere that if he could "quote" an author without changing words, it didn't matter what the author might have intended.

Now, all the crap that post-modernist literary critisim pumps out, is matched by the anti-PoMo crap that gets pumped. That is an argument for another day and another thread.

However, I cannot think of a better example of the worst excesses of PoMo than Dembski- words mean what ever I want them to mean.

We all really know, because of the objective and absolute moral code inscribed in our hearts, that goddidit.  All that Dembski is doing is identifying the bits of text where our conscience takes over and we speak the truth.

Right now, he's on page 9,759 of The Structure Of Evolutionary Theory, still looking for Gould's admission that he didn't come from no monkey.

--------------
Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it.
- Robert Byers

  
Tom Ames



Posts: 238
Joined: Dec. 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 23 2010,11:43   

Quote (Dr.GH @ Feb. 22 2010,21:47)
Tom, I am amazed at your self restraint. I will try (really) to use it as a standard.

Well, I've had a few good friends over the years who could have found themselves in situations analogous to being a student of Dembski's. I'm writing as if to them, because I really do want to draw out the answers to some of these questions.

I've made questionable choices myself at times, and I'm sure glad that there have been friendly people there to help me move beyond them. Long odds of doing so here? You bet. But it's not like I'm being civil to Salvador Cordova or Casey Luskin.

--------------
-Tom Ames

  
Dr.GH



Posts: 1950
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 23 2010,13:32   

Quote (Tom Ames @ Feb. 23 2010,09:43)
But it's not like I'm being civil to Salvador Cordova or Casey Luskin.

No. That would qualify for sainthood.

--------------
"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
JLT



Posts: 740
Joined: Jan. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 23 2010,14:20   

Quote (Tom Ames @ Feb. 23 2010,05:10)
On the off chance that any of Dembski's Philo 4483 students wander over into this Swamp of Immorality, I made an offer to answer their questions on this thread. However, I'd also like to direct a few questions in return to these Dembski students. Here goes:


Dear Student,

[snip excellent questions]

If there's anything you genuinely want to know (and if you're not engaged in a drive-by for grades) I, and many others here, will do our best to address your questions respectfully.

I'd suggest that any one who wants to talk about scientific questions states first,

- what s/he thinks the age of the earth is
- whether he accepts common descent (including humans)
- what kind of background he has in biology*

That would make it much easier.


* I actually mean biology, not whether he thinks he "knows" evolutionary theory. I want to know if he knows anything about e.g. genetics.

--------------
"Random mutations, if they are truly random, will affect, and potentially damage, any aspect of the organism, [...]
Thus, a realistic [computer] simulation [of evolution] would allow the program, OS, and hardware to be affected in a random fashion." GilDodgen, Frilly shirt owner

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 23 2010,14:23   

Quote (Dr.GH @ Feb. 23 2010,18:32)
Quote (Tom Ames @ Feb. 23 2010,09:43)
But it's not like I'm being civil to Salvador Cordova or Casey Luskin.

No. That would qualify for sainthood.

Or at least heavy medication.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1000
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 23 2010,16:46   

Regarding

Quote
some kind of Scientific Conspiracy


as President for Life of the Darwinian Pressure Group, Delta Pi Gamma, I hasten to caution you about using the onspiracy-cay word in ublic-pay if you get my drift.  Wouldn't want anything to happen to your grant money, would we, though accidents do happen.

If youse don't mind, me and my associates will let ourselves out.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 23 2010,17:15   

Quote (Doc Bill @ Feb. 23 2010,21:46)
Regarding

Quote
some kind of Scientific Conspiracy


as President for Life of the Darwinian Pressure Group, Delta Pi Gamma, I hasten to caution you about using the onspiracy-cay word in ublic-pay if you get my drift.  Wouldn't want anything to happen to your grant money, would we, though accidents do happen.

If youse don't mind, me and my associates will let ourselves out.

This is...errrr....a very nice place you've got here. Wouldn't want it to...errrr...catch fire or anything. It looks kind of flammable.

By happy coincidence my colleagues and I are in the fire prevention and insurance market...

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
fnxtr



Posts: 2094
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 23 2010,20:01   

Quote (Louis @ Feb. 23 2010,15:15)
Quote (Doc Bill @ Feb. 23 2010,21:46)
Regarding

 
Quote
some kind of Scientific Conspiracy


as President for Life of the Darwinian Pressure Group, Delta Pi Gamma, I hasten to caution you about using the onspiracy-cay word in ublic-pay if you get my drift.  Wouldn't want anything to happen to your grant money, would we, though accidents do happen.

If youse don't mind, me and my associates will let ourselves out.

This is...errrr....a very nice place you've got here. Wouldn't want it to...errrr...catch fire or anything. It looks kind of flammable.

By happy coincidence my colleagues and I are in the fire prevention and insurance market...

Louis

I mean, fings break, don' 'ey?

--------------
"But it's disturbing to think someone actually thinks creationism -- having put it's hand on the hot stove every day for the last 400 years -- will get a different result tomorrow." -- midwifetoad

  
Dr.GH



Posts: 1950
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 08 2010,05:18   

Bumbumty Bum
bumbty b

umpty

Is this pervy?


:(

--------------
"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
fnxtr



Posts: 2094
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 08 2010,10:49   

Quote (Dr.GH @ Mar. 08 2010,03:18)
Bumbumty Bum
bumbty b

umpty

Is this pervy?


:(

Sorry, no. Keep trying, though.

--------------
"But it's disturbing to think someone actually thinks creationism -- having put it's hand on the hot stove every day for the last 400 years -- will get a different result tomorrow." -- midwifetoad

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 08 2010,10:53   

Quote (fnxtr @ Mar. 08 2010,15:49)
Quote (Dr.GH @ Mar. 08 2010,03:18)
Bumbumty Bum
bumbty b

umpty

Is this pervy?


:(

Sorry, no. Keep trying, though.

What worries me is that comments like Dr GH's there make me want to post something that starts with "No. But this is...".

I feel that would be a Bad Thing. So instead, something whoelsome from the potter's wheel:



Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4360
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 08 2010,11:02   

It's a bit small innit?

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
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