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  Topic: The Discovery Institute Thread, Everyone's Favorite Propaganda Mill< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
JLT



Posts: 740
Joined: Jan. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 12 2009,08:30   

Quote
Egnor: Science and religion don’t address entirely separate aspects of human experience. There is one truth about the world. The truth about the natural world is obviously a part of metaphysical truth. Science addresses the truth about the natural world, and religion addresses the deeper metaphysical truth. There are no separate magesteria, despite Stephen J. Gould’s spin. If God made the world, then intelligent design is true, assuming that the artifacts of His designing intelligence can be recognized as such. If there is no God, and the world just came to be, then Darwinism is true, because ID and Darwinism are just the affirmative and the negative answer to the same question: is there evidence for design in biology?

This is clear: metaphysical truth determines scientific truth. If there is a designer (metaphysical truth), then intelligent design is true (scientific truth). If there is no designer (metaphysical truth), then Darwinism is true (scientific truth).


Good grief. Egnor really is losing it. He rambles on like this for another six paragraphs, repeating the same point. It's exactly as he puts it: for him and his buddies their preconceived metaphysical "truth" determines scientific truth. No need to actually DO science or look at the evidence - you just know it.

--------------
"Random mutations, if they are truly random, will affect, and potentially damage, any aspect of the organism, [...]
Thus, a realistic [computer] simulation [of evolution] would allow the program, OS, and hardware to be affected in a random fashion." GilDodgen, Frilly shirt owner

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1005
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 12 2009,13:51   

Here it is Darwin's 200th Birthday and the best the DI can do is have Anika "The Tank" Smith report on a Zogby poll about academic freedom.

Nice one, Crowther and West!  Way to strut your stuff!

Wowzer, I'm convinced!

  
Schroedinger's Dog



Posts: 1691
Joined: Jan. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 12 2009,13:55   

Ok, Doc Bill. In regard to this post and the one on the RFJE topic, am I right in assuming that you have once again abused teh ol' bottle O' spirit?  :D

--------------
"Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G

"I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis

"The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

   
RupertG



Posts: 80
Joined: Nov. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 12 2009,15:07   

Quote (JLT @ Feb. 12 2009,08:30)
Quote
Egnor: Science and religion don’t address entirely separate aspects of human experience. There is one truth about the world. The truth about the natural world is obviously a part of metaphysical truth. Science addresses the truth about the natural world, and religion addresses the deeper metaphysical truth. There are no separate magesteria, despite Stephen J. Gould’s spin. If God made the world, then intelligent design is true, assuming that the artifacts of His designing intelligence can be recognized as such. If there is no God, and the world just came to be, then Darwinism is true, because ID and Darwinism are just the affirmative and the negative answer to the same question: is there evidence for design in biology?

This is clear: metaphysical truth determines scientific truth. If there is a designer (metaphysical truth), then intelligent design is true (scientific truth). If there is no designer (metaphysical truth), then Darwinism is true (scientific truth).


Good grief. Egnor really is losing it. He rambles on like this for another six paragraphs, repeating the same point. It's exactly as he puts it: for him and his buddies their preconceived metaphysical "truth" determines scientific truth. No need to actually DO science or look at the evidence - you just know it.

Quite, quite wonderful. It's certainly unarguable - it has that distinctive cargo-cultish logicky tang, where if words are placed in roughly the same sort of order that words are used in normal argument, they magically acquire the same power as normal argument. Like a painting of a dog, it gives off a doggy aura.  But it won't fetch sticks.

A friend of mine was grinding his teeth over this sort of thing, but that's surely one of the intents - to annoy the opposition - along with comforting the believers. I think it's better to just watch and wonder, treating it as an anthropological phenomenon with, if you're lucky, an accompanying insight into some peculiar human condition.

--------------
Uncle Joe and Aunty Mabel
Fainted at the breakfast table
Children, let this be a warning
Never do it in the morning -- Ralph Vaughan Williams

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1005
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 12 2009,15:23   

Once every 200 years I'm allowed to make merry.

Lime Jell-O vodka shots.

  
khan



Posts: 1483
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 12 2009,15:26   

Quote (Doc Bill @ Feb. 12 2009,16:23)
Once every 200 years I'm allowed to make merry.

Lime Jell-O vodka shots.

Back when I was in college (the Pleistocene) we preferred strawberry.

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"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1005
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 12 2009,16:00   

Thunderbird wine mixed with cherry Kool-Aid.

(Hey, maybe that's where I drank the Kool-Aid.)

Then, Annie Green Springs wine came out and there was no turning back.

Bending over and hurling, sure, but no turning back.

** Breaking News! **

The DI has listed a series of Darwin Day peer-reviewed research articles written by DI fellows and supporters.

Oh, sorry, they're OpEd pieces.  John-Boy Wells has a "nice" article that's getting shredded in the comments.  The article sucks but the comments are fun.

  
khan



Posts: 1483
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 12 2009,16:25   

Quote (Doc Bill @ Feb. 12 2009,17:00)
Thunderbird wine mixed with cherry Kool-Aid.

(Hey, maybe that's where I drank the Kool-Aid.)

Then, Annie Green Springs wine came out and there was no turning back.

Bending over and hurling, sure, but no turning back.

** Breaking News! **

The DI has listed a series of Darwin Day peer-reviewed research articles written by DI fellows and supporters.

Oh, sorry, they're OpEd pieces.
 John-Boy Wells has a "nice" article that's getting shredded in the comments.  The article sucks but the comments are fun.

Close enough for creos.

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"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

  
Lowell



Posts: 101
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 12 2009,16:39   

Quote (Doc Bill @ Feb. 12 2009,16:00)
** Breaking News! **

The DI has listed a series of Darwin Day peer-reviewed research articles written by DI fellows and supporters.

Oh, sorry, they're OpEd pieces.  John-Boy Wells has a "nice" article that's getting shredded in the comments.  The article sucks but the comments are fun.

Anybody got a link? I couldn't find it on discovery.org, and it sounds tardalicious.

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The resurrection of Jesus Christ is one of the most well documented events of antiquity. Barry Arrington, Jan 17, 2012.

  
Ptaylor



Posts: 888
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 12 2009,17:41   

These guys don't do well when they leave the shelter of their comment free zones. Casey Luskin indulges in a 6,750+ word whinefest here. Don't bother reading any more than the first few paragraphs - they set the tone for the rest of the piece. The comments, however, are worthwhile.
(Sorry if this is off topic - it's not about the DI, but it is Casey.)

--------------
“To surrender to ignorance and call it God has always been premature, and it remains premature today.” - Isaac Asimov

"Grow up, assface" - Joe G., grown up ID spokesperson, Sandwalk, April 2014

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1005
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 12 2009,17:50   

Here's the Well's piece of shit.

And this from some Texas lawyer goober.

And from Oklahoma we have this.  Hey, ERV, sic 'em!

  
khan



Posts: 1483
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 12 2009,17:57   

Quote (Ptaylor @ Feb. 12 2009,18:41)
These guys don't do well when they leave the shelter of their comment free zones. Casey Luskin indulges in a 6,750+ word whinefest [URL=http://www.usnews.com/blogs/room-for-debate/2009/02/12/darwin-believers-hide-fears-of-intelligent-design-behind-a-wall-of-denial-and-ridicule.htm

l]here[/URL]. Don't bother reading any more than the first few paragraphs - they set the tone for the rest of the piece. The comments, however, are worthwhile.
(Sorry if this is off topic - it's not about the DI, but it is Casey.)

That is some serious whining dumbfuckery.

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"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

  
Schroedinger's Dog



Posts: 1691
Joined: Jan. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2009,00:32   

I love that part in the comments on Luskin's blattering:

Quote
If throwing shoes as a symbol of disrespect was practiced in the US The Discovery Institute would have received a shoe closet that would make even Imelda Marcos jealous.


:D  :D  :D

--------------
"Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G

"I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis

"The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

   
Bob O'H



Posts: 1979
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2009,00:53   

Ha!  In the middle of the 1224 word section on how we evilutionists just ridicule IDers, Luskin write this:
Quote
We should ignore this type of empty rhetoric that is patently designed to intimidate dissenters.

1224 words?  That's a whole lotta ignoring goin' in.

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It is fun to dip into the various threads to watch cluelessness at work in the hands of the confident exponent. - Soapy Sam (so say we all)

   
Doc Bill



Posts: 1005
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2009,10:31   

Whoa!  Where am I?  Who am I?

I woke up this morning and the party was over and the monkey was dead.*

Darn that Nyquil!




*That's the punchline to a joke I can't remember.

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4504
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2009,10:58   

Casey Luskin:

Quote

Robert Pennock behaves in much the same fashion. In 2006, I observed that the University of California at San Diego ("UCSD," my alma mater) was requiring all freshman students to attend a lecture by Pennock attacking ID. I had no particular problem with that, apart from the fact that this was an imbalanced lecture series and no pro-ID speaker was invited for a similarly mandatory lecture. Pennock responded to my protests by writing a UCSD dean, attacking me as deceptive:

"The article on the Discovery Institute website about my talk (actually prior to my talk) is standard propaganda from these guys and filled with their usual deceptions and factual mistakes." (emphasis added)

In his recent op-ed here with U.S. News & World Report, Pennock likewise attempts to equate ID with creationism (more on this below) and tries to demonize ID proponents by stating that "Creationism, in whatever guise it has taken to get into the schools, has proven itself to be fundamentally deceptive."

Again, we see the use of demonization and character assassination to prevent people from scrutinizing the evidence for themselves.

Clearly, Mr. Katskee, Mr. Pennock, and many other Darwinists feel that the use of namecalling and ridicule should play a central role in their case against intelligent design.


Uh, Casey, your prime supporting quote from Pennock... didn't you notice that it only attacked the ideas and had precisely zero namecalling and zero ridicule content in it?

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
J-Dog



Posts: 4364
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2009,11:06   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Feb. 13 2009,10:58)
Uh, Casey, your prime supporting quote from Pennock... didn't you notice that it only attacked the ideas and had precisely zero namecalling and zero ridicule content in it?


Casey Luskin  - Still Starring in   Clueless In Seattle ...

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
JohnW



Posts: 2263
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2009,11:08   

Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Feb. 12 2009,22:32)
I love that part in the comments on Luskin's blattering:

 
Quote
If throwing shoes as a symbol of disrespect was practiced in the US The Discovery Institute would have received a shoe closet that would make even Imelda Marcos jealous.


:D  :D  :D

Seattle phone book:

Discovery Institute     1511 3rd   206 292-0401
Payless ShoeSource   1529 3rd   206 622-9557

Same building.  I think Mrs Marcos had more expensive tastes, though.

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Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it.
- Robert Byers

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4504
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2009,11:42   

Casey Luskin:

Quote

"Q: Dr. Pennock, isn ' t it true that there ' s not agreement among philosophers of science concerning the validity of methodological naturalism?"

Pennock implies that only philosophers of science who are sympathetic to ID reject methodological naturalism:

"A: The term methodological naturalism is fairly straightforward in the literature. There have been criticisms of it from people like Del Ratzsch from discussions specifically of this debate. So there ' s some who have taken up a sympathetic position to the intelligent design folks and tried to argue that we could dispense with this. (Pennock 2005b, 84)"

Larry Laudan (1983) is a good counterexample to this: he is not sympathetic to ID, yet he rejects methodological naturalism as a demarcation criterion for science. (This follows from the sentence from Laudan ' s paper I quoted in Section 1, as well as from the rest of Laudan ' s paper.)


Casey, didn't you notice the lack of discussion of "demarcation" in the transcript Q&A that you quoted?

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
JLT



Posts: 740
Joined: Jan. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2009,17:25   

I watched the ID - the future video podcast in "honour" of Darwin day and I realised for the first time that by looking at Wells' body language you can actually determine if he his lying.
You really have to look closely otherwise you may miss it. But every time just before he starts lying, he opens his mouth.

--------------
"Random mutations, if they are truly random, will affect, and potentially damage, any aspect of the organism, [...]
Thus, a realistic [computer] simulation [of evolution] would allow the program, OS, and hardware to be affected in a random fashion." GilDodgen, Frilly shirt owner

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1005
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2009,17:49   

My favorite DI Moment of all time was when Mark Ryland from the DI's Washington, D.C. office was on a panel with Richard Thompson who defended the school board in Kitzmiller.

Thompson made a comment that the DI added fuel to the Dover fire by advocating teaching ID in the public school.

Then Ryland said no, no no!  The DI has NEVER advocated teaching ID in the public school.

THEN Thompson pulled out a document that the DI used to have on their website titled something like "How to Teach Intelligent Design and Avoid Constitutional Entanglements - A Teacher's Guide" and waved it in Ryland's face.

Now, remember, these guys are on the SAME SIDE!  It was hilarious.  Ryland shut up fast and Thompson was furious enough to launch into a tirade about how the DI pulled out of the case and what assholes they were.   (Poetic license at work here, but you get the picture.)

Soon after that Ryland left the DI to "pursue other interests" as they say.

Busted, I say!

  
JLT



Posts: 740
Joined: Jan. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2009,19:33   

Quote (Doc Bill @ Feb. 13 2009,23:49)
My favorite DI Moment of all time was when Mark Ryland from the DI's Washington, D.C. office was on a panel with Richard Thompson who defended the school board in Kitzmiller.

Thompson made a comment that the DI added fuel to the Dover fire by advocating teaching ID in the public school.

Then Ryland said no, no no!  The DI has NEVER advocated teaching ID in the public school.

THEN Thompson pulled out a document that the DI used to have on their website titled something like "How to Teach Intelligent Design and Avoid Constitutional Entanglements - A Teacher's Guide" and waved it in Ryland's face.

Now, remember, these guys are on the SAME SIDE!  It was hilarious.  Ryland shut up fast and Thompson was furious enough to launch into a tirade about how the DI pulled out of the case and what assholes they were.   (Poetic license at work here, but you get the picture.)

Soon after that Ryland left the DI to "pursue other interests" as they say.

Busted, I say!

LOL.

I found this little tale about Ryland at The Institute for the Study of Nature homepage:
   
Quote
In the early 1990s Mark became interested in the modern debate over evolution theory, finding merit in modern critiques of the standard (selectionist) understanding of neo-Darwinism. This interest led him to collaborate for a time with the Discovery Institute, a center of gravity for both critics of neo-Darwinism (a broader group, many of whom have no opinion on an alternative explanation for biological evolution) as well as proponents of "intelligent design theory" or "IDT" (who purport to provide an alternative explanation). Eventually he became convinced that IDT was not a real alternative, and he also grew tired of the narrow perspectives and endless bickering that characterize the modern debate about evolution. [...]

See, he wasn't busted. He grew tired of the bickering. And  
Quote
He also discovered that there is a pressing need for the re-development of an explicitly philosophical, classically informed, and non-reductionist approach to nature, synthesizing the wisdom of the ancients with the insights and capabilities of modern scientific ideas and methods.
which is why he co-founded the ISN.
Now you know...

--------------
"Random mutations, if they are truly random, will affect, and potentially damage, any aspect of the organism, [...]
Thus, a realistic [computer] simulation [of evolution] would allow the program, OS, and hardware to be affected in a random fashion." GilDodgen, Frilly shirt owner

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1005
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2009,20:38   

I wonder if Ryland got a layoff package from the DI.

Knowing Ryland's luck he got Luskin's "package."

  
JLT



Posts: 740
Joined: Jan. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 17 2009,11:29   

Looks like Casey Luskin doesn't like Expelled Exposed. He spends more than 4000 words (and ~80 links) on "correc[ting]  the various misrepresentations and falsehoods spread by Darwinists about Expelled."

Maybe he doesn't like the fact that if you google "expelled" you get Expelled Exposed as the first hit and not their lousy movie.

 
Quote
“Expelled Exposed” is now exposed for what it really is: it’s not just a website making the case against ID (which is perfectly fine if that’s what ID critics want to do)—it’s a website attempting to convince people that ID deserves no academic freedom. In other words, “Expelled Exposed” is an effort to encourage the further persecution of ID-proponents.

Ironically, by denying that professionally qualified ID proponents have a right to "a place in academia,” “Expelled Exposed” has justified the central thesis of the documentary Expelled, namely that qualified ID proponents do not receive academic freedom to hold, discuss, and promote their views within the academy.

Someone should tell Luskin that academic freedom isn't the freedom to spout nonsense.

--------------
"Random mutations, if they are truly random, will affect, and potentially damage, any aspect of the organism, [...]
Thus, a realistic [computer] simulation [of evolution] would allow the program, OS, and hardware to be affected in a random fashion." GilDodgen, Frilly shirt owner

  
Schroedinger's Dog



Posts: 1691
Joined: Jan. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 17 2009,12:32   

Sometimes, you just have to stop for a moment and wonder at the infinite stupidity of the ID movement.

Let's say I have a theory that bananas are a kind of fish. I will write books about it, create my own Banana Institute to promote the idea, try to push it in nutrition classes, get my ass handed to me, complain about the evil fruity conspiracy not willing to Teach The Controversy© and finally cry "oppresion" because the institutions refuse to take my claims, or its defenders, seriously.

Academic freedom, yeah. These guys are a tablecloth and a ham sandwich short of a picnic...

--------------
"Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G

"I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis

"The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

   
Doc Bill



Posts: 1005
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 17 2009,15:56   

What I like is how Luskin references his OWN propaganda.

"Hey, they were mean to Sternberg and if you don't believe me just read me.  See, I told you so!"

  
Texas Teach



Posts: 1038
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 17 2009,18:30   

Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Feb. 17 2009,12:32)
Sometimes, you just have to stop for a moment and wonder at the infinite stupidity of the ID movement.

Let's say I have a theory that bananas are a kind of fish. I will write books about it, create my own Banana Institute to promote the idea, try to push it in nutrition classes, get my ass handed to me, complain about the evil fruity conspiracy not willing to Teach The Controversy© and finally cry "oppresion" because the institutions refuse to take my claims, or its defenders, seriously.

Academic freedom, yeah. These guys are a tablecloth and a ham sandwich short of a picnic...

But are fish designed to fit perfectly into your hand?

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"Creationists think everything Genesis says is true. I don't even think Phil Collins is a good drummer." --J. Carr

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4364
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 17 2009,20:20   

Quote (JLT @ Feb. 17 2009,11:29)
Someone should tell Luskin that academic freedom isn't the freedom to spout nonsense.

Sig Worthy!

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Henry J



Posts: 4078
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 17 2009,21:14   

Quote
But are fish designed to fit perfectly into your hand?


The square kind that they serve in fast food places are. ;)

Henry

  
Texas Teach



Posts: 1038
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 17 2009,21:25   

Quote (Henry J @ Feb. 17 2009,21:14)
Quote
But are fish designed to fit perfectly into your hand?


The square kind that they serve in fast food places are. ;)

Henry

Waterloo!!!!!!11111!!!!!1!!!!11!1oneoneone

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"Creationists think everything Genesis says is true. I don't even think Phil Collins is a good drummer." --J. Carr

  
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