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Quack



Posts: 1715
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 17 2009,03:37   

Quote (Nils Ruhr @ Jan. 16 2009,14:39)
Behe has kicked Miller's ass

http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/01/behes_take_miller_vs_luskin.html

Miller will never recognize his own failure, since he's too proud (dogmatic).

Since I don't know quite how to properly "fix it for you", I just have to point out that in my opinion, it should rather have read "Behe will never recognize..."

IANAS, but my initial reaction to DBB when I first read it in 1996 was a strong sense that here way a guy that I was not prepared to believe.

History has proven me right; unless I am too dogmatic, science has shown why Irreducible Complexity and Complex Specified Information are little more than fancy terms designed to impress the gullible.

Behe struck me as someone more like being on a mission than a scientist. And we know that he is; he has made it clear that he thinks the designer is God. Wishful thinking is probably not the best approach for doing science. But then we know that Behe is not doing proper science as we know it, his definition of science includes things like astrology.

This passage from p233 of DBB forever etched in my mind stands out as a prime example of the sort of kitch/camp Behe is capable of producing; making me very suspicions about his entire enterprise:

 
Quote
The result of these cumulative efforts to investigate the cell - to investigate life at the molecular level-is a loud, clear, piercing cry of "design!"  The result is so unambiguous and so significant that it must be ranked as one of the greatest achievements in the history of science. The discovery rivals those of Newton and Einstein, Lavoisier and Schrodinger, Pasteur, and Darwin. The observation of the intelligent design of life is as momentous as the observation that the earth goes around the sun or that disease is caused by bacteria or that radiation is emitted in quanta. The magnitude of the victory, gained at such great cost through sustained effort over the course of decades, would be expected to send champagne corks flying in labs around the world. This triumph of science should evoke cries of "Eureka!" from ten thousand throats, should occasion much hand-slapping and high-fiving, and perhaps even be an excuse to take a day off.
But no bottles have been uncorked, no hands slapped. Instead, a curious, embarrassed silence surrounds the stark complexity of the cell. When the subject comes up in public, feet start to shuffle, and breathing gets a bit labored. In private people are a bit more relaxed; many explicitly admit the obvious but then stare at the ground, shake their heads, and let it go at that.
Why does the scientific community not greedily embrace its startling discovery? Why is the observation of design handled with intellectual gloves? The dilemma is that while one side of the elephant is labeled intelligent design, the other side might be labeled God.




Edited by Lou FCD on Jan. 18 2009,08:45

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Waiting for Gary to reply to the question: Show us at least one person alive that understand his diagram and theory.

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4352
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 17 2009,07:01   

Quote (Quack @ Jan. 17 2009,03:37)
Quote (Nils Ruhr @ Jan. 16 2009,14:39)
Behe has kicked Miller's ass

http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/01/behes_take_miller_vs_luskin.html

Miller will never recognize his own failure, since he's too proud (dogmatic).

Since I don't know quite how to properly "fix it for you", I just have to point out that in my opinion, it should rather have read "Behe will never recognize..."

IANAS, but my initial reaction to DBB when I first read it in 1996 was a strong sense that here way a guy that I was not prepared to believe.

History has proven me right; unless I am too dogmatic, science has shown why Irreducible Complexity and Complex Specified Information are little more than fancy terms designed to impress the gullible.

Behe struck me as someone more like being on a mission than a scientist. And we know that he is; he has made it clear that he thinks the designer is God. Wishful thinking is probably not the best approach for doing science. But then we know that Behe is not doing proper science as we know it, his definition of science includes things like astrology.

This passage from p233 of DBB forever etched in my mind stands out as a prime example of the sort of kitch/camp Behe is capable of producing; making me very suspicions about his entire enterprise:

 
Quote
The result of these cumulative efforts to investigate the cell - to investigate life at the molecular level-is a loud, clear, piercing cry of "design!"  The result is so unambiguous and so significant that it must be ranked as one of the greatest achievements in the history of science. The discovery rivals those of Newton and Einstein, Lavoisier and Schrodinger, Pasteur, and Darwin. The observation of the intelligent design of life is as momentous as the observation that the earth goes around the sun or that disease is caused by bacteria or that radiation is emitted in quanta. The magnitude of the victory, gained at such great cost through sustained effort over the course of decades, would be expected to send champagne corks flying in labs around the world. This triumph of science should evoke cries of "Eureka!" from ten thousand throats, should occasion much hand-slapping and high-fiving, and perhaps even be an excuse to take a day off.
But no bottles have been uncorked, no hands slapped. Instead, a curious, embarrassed silence surrounds the stark complexity of the cell. When the subject comes up in public, feet start to shuffle, and breathing gets a bit labored. In private people are a bit more relaxed; many explicitly admit the obvious but then stare at the ground, shake their heads, and let it go at that.
Why does the scientific community not greedily embrace its startling discovery? Why is the observation of design handled with intellectual gloves? The dilemma is that while one side of the elephant is labeled intelligent design, the other side might be labeled God.

POTW for Quack!  

Your Behe quote puts Behe's whole schtick in the proper perspective, IMO.

Excellent.

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4375
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 17 2009,19:21   

Academic Free-For-All Day

Quote

Why stand on the shoulders of giants when we can peer from between their ankles?


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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
nuytsia



Posts: 131
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 18 2009,04:17   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Jan. 17 2009,11:21)
Academic Free-For-All Day

 
Quote

Why stand on the shoulders of giants when we can peer from between their ankles?

That's lovely.
The t-shirt competition looks interesting too, but I can't help thinking that shirts with  "Academic Free-For-All Day"
on the front and "End the Tyranny of 1,000 Years of Learning!" on the back would be good.
Put on a shirt, find an "Academic freeDum" group, slip yourself in and see if anybody notices... or even compliments you on your alternative design.  :D

   
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4222
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 18 2009,08:13   

Quote (nuytsia @ Jan. 18 2009,05:17)
Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Jan. 17 2009,11:21)
Academic Free-For-All Day

   
Quote

Why stand on the shoulders of giants when we can peer from between their ankles?

That's lovely.
The t-shirt competition looks interesting too, but I can't help thinking that shirts with  "Academic Free-For-All Day"
on the front and "End the Tyranny of 1,000 Years of Learning!" on the back would be good.
Put on a shirt, find an "Academic freeDum" group, slip yourself in and see if anybody notices... or even compliments you on your alternative design.  :D

I dunno. The T-shirt contests I most enjoy are rarely about the shirts.

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

  
nuytsia



Posts: 131
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 18 2009,23:08   

Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Jan. 18 2009,00:13)
I dunno. The T-shirt contests I most enjoy are rarely about the shirts.

Ahhhh so your more a fabrics man are you?

You materialists. You're all the same.
:p

   
dvunkannon



Posts: 1376
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 27 2009,18:44   

I was playing around with Google Maps today and decided to map "Discovery Institute". Whoa! Three locations in Seattle and one in DC. I thought they were in one tiny office that Ben Stein couldn't find with GPS. It's bi coastal anti-intellectual kudzu!

What if they start selling coffee and public policy from thousands of locations? A venti double Luskin, to go, please. Mega-churches are so big box retailer, what DI's secret strategy is heading for is a presence in every school cafeteria.

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I’m referring to evolution, not changes in allele frequencies. - Cornelius Hunter
I’m not an evolutionist, I’m a change in allele frequentist! - Nakashima

  
Wolfhound



Posts: 468
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 27 2009,19:06   

I go to Seattle every August for some dog shows.  Anybody want to go leave a flaming bag of canine leavings on their [three] doorstep[s]?  I can procure the canine leavings, of course.    :)

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I've found my personality to be an effective form of birth control.

  
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4222
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 27 2009,19:23   

Quote (nuytsia @ Jan. 19 2009,00:08)
Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Jan. 18 2009,00:13)
I dunno. The T-shirt contests I most enjoy are rarely about the shirts.

Ahhhh so your more a fabrics man are you?

You materialists. You're all the same.
:p

It's Big Bazooms theory. I can't help myself.

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Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

  
JohnW



Posts: 2167
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 28 2009,13:26   

Quote (Wolfhound @ Jan. 27 2009,17:06)
I go to Seattle every August for some dog shows.  Anybody want to go leave a flaming bag of canine leavings on their [three] doorstep[s]?  I can procure the canine leavings, of course.    :)

And in what way will this be distinguishable from their customary product?  They'll never even notice.

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Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it.
- Robert Byers

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4352
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 28 2009,13:29   

Quote (JohnW @ Jan. 28 2009,13:26)
Quote (Wolfhound @ Jan. 27 2009,17:06)
I go to Seattle every August for some dog shows.  Anybody want to go leave a flaming bag of canine leavings on their [three] doorstep[s]?  I can procure the canine leavings, of course.    :)

And in what way will this be distinguishable from their customary product?  They'll never even notice.

NAILED IT!

Do we have One-Liner Of The Week Award yet?

I'd submit your name, but as an Illinoisan, ny Governor insists that for this kind of honor, you owe me some *&6%$$ money...

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 3509
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 30 2009,15:29   

Quote
Discovery Institute in JPost: Darwin Led to Hitler
Opinion | Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 11:51:21 am PST

David Klinghoffer of the anti-evolution Discovery Institute has an opinion column in the Jerusalem Post, attacking Jewish groups like the ADL for protesting against Pope Benedict’s reinstatement of Holocaust-denying Bishop Richard Williamson. Klinghoffer calls it “whining:” The wages of whining.

But the real purpose of Klinghoffer’s column is to attempt to redirect Jewish anger toward the Discovery Institute’s main target: the theory of evolution.



http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article...._Hitler

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”let’s not make a joke of ourselves.”

Pat Robertson

  
Wolfhound



Posts: 468
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 30 2009,16:58   

Quote (JohnW @ Jan. 28 2009,14:26)
Quote (Wolfhound @ Jan. 27 2009,17:06)
I go to Seattle every August for some dog shows.  Anybody want to go leave a flaming bag of canine leavings on their [three] doorstep[s]?  I can procure the canine leavings, of course.    :)

And in what way will this be distinguishable from their customary product?  They'll never even notice.

Erm, uh, it's in Smell-O-Vision?

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I've found my personality to be an effective form of birth control.

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 995
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 31 2009,16:24   

Out of the mouths of IDiots, and especially our Favorite IDiot, Egnor the Egnorant!

It's the Money Quote!


Quote
Intelligent design is the opinion that design is empirically detectable in biology, and that it is the best scientific inference to explain many aspects of biology, especially the genetic code and the complex molecular machinery inside cells.


Look, up in the sky!  Is it a theory?  Is it a notion?  Is it a concept?  Is it pie?

No, it's an "opinion."

Finally, the truth from a Discovery Institute FELLOW his own self.

ID is an opinion.

Egnor:  Tell me the truth, now, does this opinion make my head look fat?

  
JohnW



Posts: 2167
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 02 2009,12:53   

Quote (Doc Bill @ Jan. 31 2009,14:24)
Egnor:  Tell me the truth, now, does this opinion make my head look fat?

No, it doesn't.  It makes your head look very, very slim.  Pin-like.

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Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it.
- Robert Byers

  
Steviepinhead



Posts: 532
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 02 2009,18:43   

Quote (JohnW @ Feb. 02 2009,10:53)
Quote (Doc Bill @ Jan. 31 2009,14:24)
Egnor:  Tell me the truth, now, does this opinion make my head look fat?

No, it doesn't.  It makes your head look very, very slim.  Pin-like.

Now, now...   :D

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 995
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 02 2009,19:02   

I knew that was coming and moved as far away from Ground Zero as possible.

Ixnay on teh inPay edHay.

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4352
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 05 2009,13:23   

HaHa!  I  just received a letter from the DI begging for money to fight the evil Darwinistas!

Included in the packet is:
1. Envelope to mail back money or give them my Credit Card!  Too bad it is not postage paid.  Possibly a very heavy Postage Due mail-back might help them empty their over-flowing coffers.

2.  "Note" from "The desk of David Berlinski, Paris France"
(hand signed btw!) Evidently we are to think that he is exiled and not allowed in the USA. Perhaps Jeannot or The New French Guy Schrodingers Dog could reason with him.
Too bad Marcel Marceau passed on the the BIG CSI in teh Sky -  He probably feels about mimes, the way DaveScot feels about clowns.

3.) An "article" from John G West from the National Review Online entitled The Gospel According to Darwin.  Warns the rubes that Darwin and evilutioniusts are out to kill Christian immortal souls.

4.) A legal sized letter from Teh DI from John West begging for money, with a tear-off on the bottom to I can send money.  Yeah, I'll get right on that asshat.

It is a travesty that they have 501© 3 tax status.

added in edit:  If anyone wants a copy of this crap, PM me and I will scan and send as a pdf email.

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
paragwinn



Posts: 376
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 05 2009,22:28   

Quote (J-Dog @ Feb. 05 2009,13:23)
HaHa!  I  just received a letter from the DI begging for money to fight the evil Darwinistas!

Are they giving you the opportunity to sponsor a DI Fellow for only $24 a month?
Will your sponsored Fellow send you research papers, works in progress reports, personalized pictures and letters relating their experiences at the DI?
Is your money going towards efforts to provide a safe environment within which your sponsored Fellow can pursue research?
Will your money help erase the stigma that comes with being a DI Fellow?

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All women build up a resistance [to male condescension]. Apparently, ID did not predict that. -Kristine 4-19-11
F/Ns to F/Ns to F/Ns etc. The whole thing is F/N ridiculous -Seversky on KF footnote fetish 8-20-11
The geological maps that realist use to make money are all surface maps. -forastero

  
Dr.GH



Posts: 1946
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 05 2009,23:48   

Bravo paragwinn. Definitely a "Best Post Of The Last Several Minutes," or "Post That Is Better Than My Last Five." (OK, ten).

--------------
"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
Badger3k



Posts: 861
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 06 2009,01:56   

Quote (paragwinn @ Feb. 05 2009,22:28)
Quote (J-Dog @ Feb. 05 2009,13:23)
HaHa!  I  just received a letter from the DI begging for money to fight the evil Darwinistas!

Are they giving you the opportunity to sponsor a DI Fellow for only $24 a month?
Will your sponsored Fellow send you research papers, works in progress reports, personalized pictures and letters relating their experiences at the DI?
Is your money going towards efforts to provide a safe environment within which your sponsored Fellow can pursue research?
Will your money help erase the stigma that comes with being a DI Fellow?

I'm not sure of that, but they will send you a "Teiko" sport's watch.  :D

(I think the DI fellow goes by "Marvin")

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"Just think if every species had a different genetic code We would have to eat other humans to survive.." : Joe G

  
Lowell



Posts: 101
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 06 2009,17:11   

Guess who gave a lecture at Liberty University's convocation last Friday?
Quote
According to Behe, “irreducible complexity” is the idea that a system has a number of parts that interact to produce a function that each part on its own could not produce. Using a mousetrap as an example, he explained how the complexity of bacteria flagella (self-propelled cells) in the human body point to an intelligent designer.

Bacteria flagellum is made up of three essential parts: a paddle, a motor and a rotor. He said without any one of these parts the flagella, like a mousetrap without a spring, would cease to function properly.

“Like the mousetrap, it’s extremely difficult to see how something like [bacteria flagella] could be put together by numerous, successive, slight modifications,” he said.

There's a nice big picture of Behe accompanying the article. It would be a shame if someone were to photoshop it in some demeaning way.

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The resurrection of Jesus Christ is one of the most well documented events of antiquity. Barry Arrington, Jan 17, 2012.

  
khan



Posts: 1478
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 06 2009,17:17   

Quote (Lowell @ Feb. 06 2009,18:11)
Guess who gave a lecture at Liberty University's convocation last Friday?
 
Quote
According to Behe, “irreducible complexity” is the idea that a system has a number of parts that interact to produce a function that each part on its own could not produce. Using a mousetrap as an example, he explained how the complexity of bacteria flagella (self-propelled cells) in the human body point to an intelligent designer.

Bacteria flagellum is made up of three essential parts: a paddle, a motor and a rotor. He said without any one of these parts the flagella, like a mousetrap without a spring, would cease to function properly.

“Like the mousetrap, it’s extremely difficult to see how something like [bacteria flagella] could be put together by numerous, successive, slight modifications,” he said.

There's a nice big picture of Behe accompanying the article. It would be a shame if someone were to photoshop it in some demeaning way.

I get a 'not found'.

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"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

  
JonF



Posts: 570
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 06 2009,17:36   

Quote (khan @ Feb. 06 2009,18:17)
I get a 'not found'.

http://tinyurl.com/bohyeh

Interesting choice for the end of that URL.

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 995
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 06 2009,18:09   

Behe Liberty Blah Blah

Pardon my French but fuck me to hell in a handbasket, I can't believe Behe is STILL going on about the freaking mousetrap and flagellum.

I mean, srsly, HOW MANY TIMES does he have to have his nose rubbed in it to get a fucking clue?

He's like Jason coming back over and over and over.  "Intelligent Design" XIX - the Never Ending Flapdoodle

Mousetrap!  (You're wrong.)
Mousetrap!  (You're wrong.)
Mousetrap!  (You're wrong.)

OK, it's like Groundhog Day except Behe NEVER LEARNS!

Of course, I realize he has learned and he knows he's full of shit but he's so happy to spread shit, by god, there's a pony in there somewhere!

OMFG, what an idiot.

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 3509
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 06 2009,19:22   

Quote
According to Behe, “irreducible complexity” is the idea that a system has a number of parts that interact to produce a function that each part on its own could not produce.


Isn't that a change from earlier definitions, and isn't it a bit tautological?

--------------
”let’s not make a joke of ourselves.”

Pat Robertson

  
Richard Simons



Posts: 425
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 06 2009,19:31   

http://tinyurl.com/bohyeh

 
Quote
According to Behe, “irreducible complexity” is the idea that a system has a number of parts that interact to produce a function that each part on its own could not produce.

How many definitions of irreducible complexity has he given us? There was the 'the loss of any part will cause loss of function' definition, the 'cannot arise through evolution' definition and now this. I do wish he would decide on one definition and stick to it. I wonder, have the good people at UD been informed of the latest? I will have to check out their FAQs to see if they are keeping up with the latest in ID research.

ETA: I need to think and type quicker.

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All sweeping statements are wrong.

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2774
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 07 2009,07:57   

Quote (Richard Simons @ Feb. 06 2009,19:31)
http://tinyurl.com/bohyeh

   
Quote
According to Behe, “irreducible complexity” is the idea that a system has a number of parts that interact to produce a function that each part on its own could not produce.

How many definitions of irreducible complexity has he given us? There was the 'the loss of any part will cause loss of function' definition, the 'cannot arise through evolution' definition and now this. I do wish he would decide on one definition and stick to it. I wonder, have the good people at UD been informed of the latest? I will have to check out their FAQs to see if they are keeping up with the latest in ID research.

ETA: I need to think and type quicker.

It is interesting how the same folks who whine about science because "it changes all the time!!!! What am I supposed to believe????" are OK with Behe's definition mutating like this...

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Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Henry J



Posts: 3964
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 07 2009,16:19   

Quote
It is interesting how the same folks who whine about science because "it changes all the time!!!! What am I supposed to believe????" are OK with Behe's definition mutating like this...

Ah, but the mutations in his definitions are designed, rather than being selected based on their fitness as explanations.

Henry

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 995
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 07 2009,19:43   

So, given the New Improved Definition of Irrefutably Complicated, how might we categorize a chef's knife?

It's a simple machine, a wedge.  (haha, I said "Wedge")  It has a handle, rivets and a blade.  Obviously, it works just fine without the handle or rivets to do "cutting" but the handle and rivets can't do "cutting" by themselves.

I must be missing something, 'cause I can't figure it out.

Ah, ha!

I've got it.

I'm not MISSING something, my problem is that I HAVE something.

A brain.

  
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