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stevestory



Posts: 8895
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2006,08:42   

Quote

Discovery Institute Has Put Over $4 Million Towards Scientific and Academic Research into Evolution and Intelligent Design in the Past Decade

Discovery Institute launched the Center for Science and Culture in 1996, recognizing the need for an institutional home for the emerging scientific theory of intelligent design. Even though the nascent theory of intelligent design was already being discussed by individual scientists around the world, it was not until the Center for Science and Culture was established that scientists were given the resources to research what has become the most exciting scientific story since the Big Bang.

The Center provides funding and support for scientists and scholars whose research challenges various aspects of neo-Darwinian theory and develops the scientific theory known as intelligent design. Saturday, October 21st, the Institute will host a ten year anniversary dinner to honor the achievements of the Center for Science & Culture, along with its Fellows and staff.

“In 1996, it was almost impossible to receive funding to do scientific research related to intelligent design,” says Bruce Chapman, President of Discovery Institute. “And, in addition to a lack of funding and resources, it was clear that scientists working on intelligent design were facing more and more persecution and harassment, making it difficult for them to conduct research.”

“So we started the Center, and now, just ten years later, we’ve put over $4 million directly into scientific and scholarly research on intelligent design and evolution.”

In the last ten years the CSC has:

   * Supported research and writing by more than 50 scientists and scholars in the sciences, social sciences and humanities.
   * Supported scientists and philosophers of science working on specific journal articles, monographs, and books in such areas as biology, biochemistry, cosmology, physics, probability theory, philosophy of mind, and philosophy of science.
   * Financially supported a number of scientific and academic conferences, including the International Symposium on the Origins of Animal Body Plans in Chengjiang, China, the Nature of Nature conference at Baylor University, and and intelligent design conference at Yale University.

The dinner is open to the public, and the cost to attend is $100 per person. Anyone interested in attending can register online at the Discovery Institute website at www.discovery.org. For more information, contact event coordinator Annelise Davis at (206) 292-0401 x153.

Posted by Robert Crowther on October 5, 2006 10:26 AM | Permalink
http://www.evolutionnews.org/2006/10/discovery_institute_has_put_ov.html


and btw, Thoughts From Kansas's response, and some additional info about more ways you can throw Benjamins at these frauds:

Quote
Like fish in a barrel

Category: Creationism • Culture Wars
Posted on: October 5, 2006 2:11 PM, by Josh Rosenau

I doubt that the research that produced Nobel prizes in Chemistry and Medicine/Physiology cost $4 million combined. I don't really know for sure, but some of the most fundamental discoveries cost quite little to make.
I point this out only because the DI's "Mr. Suave" aka Rob Crowther, is bragging that the "Discovery Institute Has Put Over $4 Million Towards Scientific and Academic Research into Evolution and Intelligent Design in the Past Decade":
Quote
“In 1996, it was almost impossible to receive funding to do scientific research related to intelligent design,” says Bruce Chapman, President of Discovery Institute.…

“So we started the Center, and now, just ten years later, we’ve put over $4 million directly into scientific and scholarly research on intelligent design and evolution.”
And what did that $4 million buy them? No original research. They still lack a theory of ID, so whether or not you have funding, it remains impossible to actually do research on ID.

Yes, that money has bought them conferences, and has paid for books to be published. But if the NSF spent $4 million on a research program that had as little to show for it as the DI can show for their money, Congress would be holding serious hearings into that mismanagement of funds.

Odd that the DI would be bragging about this.

Incidentally, their recent PR blitz on this point, especially tacked onto an ad for a $100 a plate dinner, suggests that the DI's failures in court and lab are hurting their bottom line. Tack on the recently created "Discovery Society" another effort to extract cash from gullible IDolators, and it's hard to come to any other conclusion.

   
Henry J



Posts: 4058
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2006,08:57   

Reckon it's a good thing these guys didn't sell stock shares in their, uh, business, huh? :p

Henry

  
jeannot



Posts: 1200
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2006,09:04   

Maybe Chapman is not aware of how research works, but it's not the funds that indicate good science, it's the results.

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3324
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2006,09:13   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 10 2006,13:42)
 
Quote

Discovery Institute Has Put Over $4 Million Towards Scientific and Academic Research into Evolution and Intelligent Design in the Past Decade

I am confused. I thought ID research was crippled because they couldn't get funds.  Where could I have gotten that idea from?

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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Occam's Aftershave



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Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2006,09:31   

I think we should take up a collection to send JanieBelle and Corporal Kate to the DI /CSC dinner.  What a hoot that would be!  I'm good for $20.

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JoeG: And by eating the cake you are consuming the information- some stays with you and the rest is waste.

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2006,09:32   

Quote (carlsonjok @ Oct. 10 2006,14:13)
Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 10 2006,13:42)
   
Quote

Discovery Institute Has Put Over $4 Million Towards Scientific and Academic Research into Evolution and Intelligent Design in the Past Decade

I am confused. I thought ID research was crippled because they couldn't get funds.  Where could I have gotten that idea from?

ID is funded just like real science, and at the same time ID can't get funding. ID produces lots of research but at the same time it's unfair to expect them to produce research. ID researchers are persecuted and harassed, and at the same time they have Darwinism 'on the run'. Darwinists are a mafia of atheist materialists who ruthlessly suppress dissent throughout science, and Darwinism is also 'practically dead'. ID produces all kinds of publications, and at the same time can't get their research published because of persecution by Darwinists. ID has nothing to do with religion, but at the same time it is the Logos theology of John's Gospel restated in the idiom of information theory. IDists believe that the earth is 6,000 years old and that it is 4.5 billion years old. IDists believe that evolution happened, that it never happened, and that it once happened but no longer does.

Oh yes, and we've always been at war with Eurasia.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Mr_Christopher



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Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2006,09:39   

This is a laff riot, I mean a total knee slapper.

Holy crikey those guys are mentally ill or something and their cultists lap it up.  I bet their little "celebrate success" event is a sell out.

I suppose spending 4 million bucks promoting ID is pretty much all the evidence they need to prove ID really is science.

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Uncommon Descent is a moral cesspool, a festering intellectual ghetto that intoxicates and degrades its inhabitants - Stephen Matheson

  
stevestory



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(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2006,09:40   

http://www.talkdesign.org/faqs/hunch/hunch.html

   
Mr_Christopher



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Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2006,09:47   

I wonder if at their little celebration whether they will be bragging about all the goals they have reached that they outlined years ago in their Wedge Strategy.

That would be cool.

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Uncommon Descent is a moral cesspool, a festering intellectual ghetto that intoxicates and degrades its inhabitants - Stephen Matheson

  
Henry J



Posts: 4058
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2006,09:48   

Re "ID is...but..."

One more: they believe in an all-powerful designer/God/being who is unable to get natural processes to produce the wanted results. (I suspect that one's kind of at the root of things.)

Henry

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2006,10:07   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 10 2006,14:40)
http://www.talkdesign.org/faqs/hunch/hunch.html

A good one from there:

 
Quote
If a living system looks well designed, it's evidence for ID. If it looks poorly designed, that's just because we have no way of knowing what constitutes good and bad design.


If something is well designed, God, erm, I mean the Disembodied Designer obviously did that. I mean, it's just obvious.

But it's completely invalid to claim that something was poorly designed, since that's claiming to be able to know what God's the DD's motives are. That's theology. We don't do that.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Henry J



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Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2006,10:19   

Re "If something is well designed, God, erm, I mean the Disembodied Designer obviously did that. I mean, it's just obvious."

Does that also apply to well designed parasites? ;)

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5378
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2006,12:06   

Quote
I think we should take up a collection to send JanieBelle and Corporal Kate to the DI /CSC dinner.  What a hoot that would be!  I'm good for $20.


Janie and Kate would go "all breezy" under their dresses (we guys know this as going commando) and flashing Bill Dembski.

Jonathan Wells would come on to Janie, and Kate would probably whack 'em upside his head.  There might wind up being a naked jello cat fight somewhere along the line.  MorphoDyke Denyse would definitely be targeted with a large raw fish from the kitchen.

DaveScot would wind up being tied to a chair where he'd be videotaped and forced to tell his mama he was a homo.

Then they'd have to kick the girls out. Janie would leave peacefully but it'd take 3-4 security personnel to expel Kate.  She doesn't really take crap from anybody.

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Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

Work-friendly photography
NSFW photography

   
Ichthyic



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(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2006,14:28   

Quote
Denyse would definitely be targeted with a large raw fish from the kitchen.


??

I thought Densye WAS a large raw fish from the kitchen.

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"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
mcc



Posts: 110
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2006,16:42   

Quote (Mr_Christopher @ Oct. 10 2006,14:39)
This is a laff riot, I mean a total knee slapper.

Holy crikey those guys are mentally ill or something and their cultists lap it up.  I bet their little "celebrate success" event is a sell out.

I suppose spending 4 million bucks promoting ID is pretty much all the evidence they need to prove ID really is science.

Well, you know, it's just like Ghandi says:

First your factual claims are soundly refuted and rejected,

Then you are unable to get traction or attention except among religious extremists,

Then a court rules you are barred from public schools,

Then your allies in the media and politics desert you,

Then you win.

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2006,18:12   

Quote (Ichthyic @ Oct. 10 2006,19:28)
Quote
Denyse would definitely be targeted with a large raw fish from the kitchen.


??

I thought Densye WAS a large raw fish from the kitchen.

Ouch.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Mr_Christopher



Posts: 1238
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 11 2006,06:32   

I notice this subject is not getting any air time over on Dembski's cult of conformity network.  

One would think that celebrating all the ID scientific accomplishments brought to you by the Discovery Institute would be something they would rejoice in?

Why isn't Dave Tard bragging about it and where is Sal the Snake when you most expect him?  The silence about this event at UD is eerie...

Color me perplexed!

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Uncommon Descent is a moral cesspool, a festering intellectual ghetto that intoxicates and degrades its inhabitants - Stephen Matheson

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



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(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 10 2009,09:08   

METHINKS IT IS LIKE A CONFESSION

You know how, when put on the spot, the DI tells school boards and legislators that, no, they aren't arguing to have "intelligent design" arguments inserted into the schools? The DI's "Academic Freedom Day" website shows that they really, really haven't been telling the truth.

Edited by Wesley R. Elsberry on Jan. 10 2009,09:10

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Schroedinger's Dog



Posts: 1691
Joined: Jan. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 10 2009,10:24   

Well, the next challenge will probably be to find out what they will call it next.

Let's get started:

-Creationism

--Creation Science

---Intelligent Design

----mmmhhh...Not so Intelligent but more kinda like Apologetic Design, but wait, no, that's not what we said...er...oh...YOU MEANIES!!!

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"Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G

"I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis

"The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

   
blipey



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(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 10 2009,10:46   

Quote (Occam's Aftershave @ Oct. 10 2006,09:31)
I think we should take up a collection to send JanieBelle and Corporal Kate to the DI /CSC dinner.  What a hoot that would be!  I'm good for $20.

Oh, I want to go too!  I'll even dress up.

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But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
Quidam



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(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 10 2009,12:28   

Why does the 'Academic Freedom Day' logo show people  shooting rubber chickens from behind an American flag while Darwin looks on with dismay, armed only with a large, phallic pencil?


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The organized fossils ... and their localities also, may be understood by all, even the most illiterate. William Smith, Strata. 1816

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4362
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 10 2009,13:15   

Quote (Quidam @ Jan. 10 2009,12:28)
Why does the 'Academic Freedom Day' logo show people  shooting rubber chickens from behind an American flag while Darwin looks on with dismay, armed only with a large, phallic pencil?

And why are there 160 stars on the American Flag?

Is the DI counting our newest states... like Iraq?  Gaza?

I for one would welcome the fair, balanced and open dialogue between, Dembski, Lusin and Muqtadr al Sadr...
as they discuss Allah The Designer.

Now THAT my friends would be a movie worth watching :)

added in edit:  OOOPS!  I have to offer an apology!

It seems Muqtadr LOVES this site, (I think he has a crush on Kristine) and sent me a PM - He says he wants NOTHING to do wit the DI - He strongly stressed that there are some things that even half-crazed mullahs have to draw the line at - and the DI is the line in the sand for the Muq Man.

However, he did say his cousin, Muqtardr , al Sadr is always going on and on about how he sees Allah in camel dung droppings. Even written a couple books, called No Free Camels, and On The Edge Of a Camel.

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Doc Bill



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(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 10 2009,20:26   

I think the DI is just trying to spoil the party.

You know, Luskin in the punchbowl.

  
Advocatus Diaboli



Posts: 197
Joined: Nov. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 15 2009,16:32   

This looks interesting: http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009....me.html

Quote
The Louisiana Board of Elementary and Secondary Education (BESE) voted unanimously to adopt rules today implementing the Louisiana Science Education Act (LSEA), the landmark academic freedom bill passed last summer.

The rules approved by the BESE effectuate the academic freedom bill’s purpose to allow teachers to use supplementary materials to teach controversial scientific theories without threat of recrimination.

A subcommittee of the Board removed a provision prohibiting intelligent design before passing the rules unanimously. The legally redundant provision would have gone beyond the intent of the legislation and was dropped after the subcommittee heard testimony from supporters and opponents of the language.

In adopting these rules, the BESE reiterated its support for academic freedom for teachers to teach controversial scientific theories.

According to Discovery Institute education policy analyst Casey Luskin, “This is another victory for Louisiana students and teachers to have a climate of academic freedom to learn about scientific controversies over evolution and other topics in the curriculum.”


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I once thought that I made a mistake, but I was wrong.

"I freely admit I’m a sociopath" - DaveScot

"Most importanly, the facts are on the side of ID." - scordova

"UD is the greatest website of all time." stevestory

   
silverspoon



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Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 15 2009,17:07   

Quote (Advocatus Diaboli @ Jan. 15 2009,16:32)
This looks interesting: http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009....me.html

 
Quote
The Louisiana Board of Elementary and Secondary Education (BESE) voted unanimously to adopt rules today implementing the Louisiana Science Education Act (LSEA), the landmark academic freedom bill passed last summer.

The rules approved by the BESE effectuate the academic freedom bill’s purpose to allow teachers to use supplementary materials to teach controversial scientific theories without threat of recrimination.

A subcommittee of the Board removed a provision prohibiting intelligent design before passing the rules unanimously. The legally redundant provision would have gone beyond the intent of the legislation and was dropped after the subcommittee heard testimony from supporters and opponents of the language.

In adopting these rules, the BESE reiterated its support for academic freedom for teachers to teach controversial scientific theories.

According to Discovery Institute education policy analyst Casey Luskin, “This is another victory for Louisiana students and teachers to have a climate of academic freedom to learn about scientific controversies over evolution and other topics in the curriculum.”

So the state board used this as an occasion to remove a restriction that the state board rules previously held against teaching intelligent design.

Am I reading this right?

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Grand Poobah of the nuclear mafia

  
Dr.GH



Posts: 1956
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 15 2009,17:26   

Quote (silverspoon @ Jan. 15 2009,15:07)
So the state board used this as an occasion to remove a restriction that the state board rules previously held against teaching intelligent design.

Am I reading this right?

That is how it reads to me.

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"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
Nils Ruhr



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(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 16 2009,14:39   

Behe has kicked Miller's ass

http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/01/behes_take_miller_vs_luskin.html

Miller will never recognize his own failure, since he's too proud (dogmatic).

  
Dr.GH



Posts: 1956
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 17 2009,00:08   

Quote (Nils Ruhr @ Jan. 16 2009,12:39)
Behe has Licked Miller's ass and fucked Luskin.

http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/01/behe_takes_ass_luskin

Fixed it for you.

Edited by Dr.GH on Jan. 16 2009,22:09

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"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
MIchael Roberts



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(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 17 2009,02:11   

Quote (Nils Ruhr @ Jan. 16 2009,14:39)
Behe has kicked Miller's ass

http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/01/behes_take_miller_vs_luskin.html

Miller will never recognize his own failure, since he's too proud (dogmatic).

Nils

If you knew just a little science you would have realised that Behe was sorted out by Miller 10 years ago. To claim this is nonsense .

I read Behe in 1996 and soon realised it was bs especially over bloodclotting . It was nice to read Miller later!!

Gary's comment is apt.

  
Advocatus Diaboli



Posts: 197
Joined: Nov. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 17 2009,03:15   

Quote (Nils Ruhr @ Jan. 16 2009,14:39)
Behe has kicked Miller's ass

http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/01/behes_take_miller_vs_luskin.html

Miller will never recognize his own failure, since he's too proud (dogmatic).

Short take on Behe's second response: "Scientists' results are suggestive, tentative. But even if true, it would still require design. I win!"

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I once thought that I made a mistake, but I was wrong.

"I freely admit I’m a sociopath" - DaveScot

"Most importanly, the facts are on the side of ID." - scordova

"UD is the greatest website of all time." stevestory

   
Quack



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Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 17 2009,03:37   

Quote (Nils Ruhr @ Jan. 16 2009,14:39)
Behe has kicked Miller's ass

http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/01/behes_take_miller_vs_luskin.html

Miller will never recognize his own failure, since he's too proud (dogmatic).

Since I don't know quite how to properly "fix it for you", I just have to point out that in my opinion, it should rather have read "Behe will never recognize..."

IANAS, but my initial reaction to DBB when I first read it in 1996 was a strong sense that here way a guy that I was not prepared to believe.

History has proven me right; unless I am too dogmatic, science has shown why Irreducible Complexity and Complex Specified Information are little more than fancy terms designed to impress the gullible.

Behe struck me as someone more like being on a mission than a scientist. And we know that he is; he has made it clear that he thinks the designer is God. Wishful thinking is probably not the best approach for doing science. But then we know that Behe is not doing proper science as we know it, his definition of science includes things like astrology.

This passage from p233 of DBB forever etched in my mind stands out as a prime example of the sort of kitch/camp Behe is capable of producing; making me very suspicions about his entire enterprise:

 
Quote
The result of these cumulative efforts to investigate the cell - to investigate life at the molecular level-is a loud, clear, piercing cry of "design!"  The result is so unambiguous and so significant that it must be ranked as one of the greatest achievements in the history of science. The discovery rivals those of Newton and Einstein, Lavoisier and Schrodinger, Pasteur, and Darwin. The observation of the intelligent design of life is as momentous as the observation that the earth goes around the sun or that disease is caused by bacteria or that radiation is emitted in quanta. The magnitude of the victory, gained at such great cost through sustained effort over the course of decades, would be expected to send champagne corks flying in labs around the world. This triumph of science should evoke cries of "Eureka!" from ten thousand throats, should occasion much hand-slapping and high-fiving, and perhaps even be an excuse to take a day off.
But no bottles have been uncorked, no hands slapped. Instead, a curious, embarrassed silence surrounds the stark complexity of the cell. When the subject comes up in public, feet start to shuffle, and breathing gets a bit labored. In private people are a bit more relaxed; many explicitly admit the obvious but then stare at the ground, shake their heads, and let it go at that.
Why does the scientific community not greedily embrace its startling discovery? Why is the observation of design handled with intellectual gloves? The dilemma is that while one side of the elephant is labeled intelligent design, the other side might be labeled God.




Edited by Lou FCD on Jan. 18 2009,08:45

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YEC creationists denigrate science without an inkling of what their lives would be without it. YEC creationism is an enrageous, abominable insult to the the human intellect.
                                                         Me.

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4362
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 17 2009,07:01   

Quote (Quack @ Jan. 17 2009,03:37)
Quote (Nils Ruhr @ Jan. 16 2009,14:39)
Behe has kicked Miller's ass

http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/01/behes_take_miller_vs_luskin.html

Miller will never recognize his own failure, since he's too proud (dogmatic).

Since I don't know quite how to properly "fix it for you", I just have to point out that in my opinion, it should rather have read "Behe will never recognize..."

IANAS, but my initial reaction to DBB when I first read it in 1996 was a strong sense that here way a guy that I was not prepared to believe.

History has proven me right; unless I am too dogmatic, science has shown why Irreducible Complexity and Complex Specified Information are little more than fancy terms designed to impress the gullible.

Behe struck me as someone more like being on a mission than a scientist. And we know that he is; he has made it clear that he thinks the designer is God. Wishful thinking is probably not the best approach for doing science. But then we know that Behe is not doing proper science as we know it, his definition of science includes things like astrology.

This passage from p233 of DBB forever etched in my mind stands out as a prime example of the sort of kitch/camp Behe is capable of producing; making me very suspicions about his entire enterprise:

 
Quote
The result of these cumulative efforts to investigate the cell - to investigate life at the molecular level-is a loud, clear, piercing cry of "design!"  The result is so unambiguous and so significant that it must be ranked as one of the greatest achievements in the history of science. The discovery rivals those of Newton and Einstein, Lavoisier and Schrodinger, Pasteur, and Darwin. The observation of the intelligent design of life is as momentous as the observation that the earth goes around the sun or that disease is caused by bacteria or that radiation is emitted in quanta. The magnitude of the victory, gained at such great cost through sustained effort over the course of decades, would be expected to send champagne corks flying in labs around the world. This triumph of science should evoke cries of "Eureka!" from ten thousand throats, should occasion much hand-slapping and high-fiving, and perhaps even be an excuse to take a day off.
But no bottles have been uncorked, no hands slapped. Instead, a curious, embarrassed silence surrounds the stark complexity of the cell. When the subject comes up in public, feet start to shuffle, and breathing gets a bit labored. In private people are a bit more relaxed; many explicitly admit the obvious but then stare at the ground, shake their heads, and let it go at that.
Why does the scientific community not greedily embrace its startling discovery? Why is the observation of design handled with intellectual gloves? The dilemma is that while one side of the elephant is labeled intelligent design, the other side might be labeled God.

POTW for Quack!  

Your Behe quote puts Behe's whole schtick in the proper perspective, IMO.

Excellent.

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4482
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 17 2009,19:21   

Academic Free-For-All Day

Quote

Why stand on the shoulders of giants when we can peer from between their ankles?


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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
nuytsia



Posts: 131
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 18 2009,04:17   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Jan. 17 2009,11:21)
Academic Free-For-All Day

 
Quote

Why stand on the shoulders of giants when we can peer from between their ankles?

That's lovely.
The t-shirt competition looks interesting too, but I can't help thinking that shirts with  "Academic Free-For-All Day"
on the front and "End the Tyranny of 1,000 Years of Learning!" on the back would be good.
Put on a shirt, find an "Academic freeDum" group, slip yourself in and see if anybody notices... or even compliments you on your alternative design.  :D

   
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4238
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 18 2009,08:13   

Quote (nuytsia @ Jan. 18 2009,05:17)
Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Jan. 17 2009,11:21)
Academic Free-For-All Day

   
Quote

Why stand on the shoulders of giants when we can peer from between their ankles?

That's lovely.
The t-shirt competition looks interesting too, but I can't help thinking that shirts with  "Academic Free-For-All Day"
on the front and "End the Tyranny of 1,000 Years of Learning!" on the back would be good.
Put on a shirt, find an "Academic freeDum" group, slip yourself in and see if anybody notices... or even compliments you on your alternative design.  :D

I dunno. The T-shirt contests I most enjoy are rarely about the shirts.

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
nuytsia



Posts: 131
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 18 2009,23:08   

Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Jan. 18 2009,00:13)
I dunno. The T-shirt contests I most enjoy are rarely about the shirts.

Ahhhh so your more a fabrics man are you?

You materialists. You're all the same.
:p

   
dvunkannon



Posts: 1377
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 27 2009,18:44   

I was playing around with Google Maps today and decided to map "Discovery Institute". Whoa! Three locations in Seattle and one in DC. I thought they were in one tiny office that Ben Stein couldn't find with GPS. It's bi coastal anti-intellectual kudzu!

What if they start selling coffee and public policy from thousands of locations? A venti double Luskin, to go, please. Mega-churches are so big box retailer, what DI's secret strategy is heading for is a presence in every school cafeteria.

--------------
I’m referring to evolution, not changes in allele frequencies. - Cornelius Hunter
I’m not an evolutionist, I’m a change in allele frequentist! - Nakashima

  
Wolfhound



Posts: 468
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 27 2009,19:06   

I go to Seattle every August for some dog shows.  Anybody want to go leave a flaming bag of canine leavings on their [three] doorstep[s]?  I can procure the canine leavings, of course.    :)

--------------
I've found my personality to be an effective form of birth control.

  
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4238
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 27 2009,19:23   

Quote (nuytsia @ Jan. 19 2009,00:08)
Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Jan. 18 2009,00:13)
I dunno. The T-shirt contests I most enjoy are rarely about the shirts.

Ahhhh so your more a fabrics man are you?

You materialists. You're all the same.
:p

It's Big Bazooms theory. I can't help myself.

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
JohnW



Posts: 2232
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 28 2009,13:26   

Quote (Wolfhound @ Jan. 27 2009,17:06)
I go to Seattle every August for some dog shows.  Anybody want to go leave a flaming bag of canine leavings on their [three] doorstep[s]?  I can procure the canine leavings, of course.    :)

And in what way will this be distinguishable from their customary product?  They'll never even notice.

--------------
Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it.
- Robert Byers

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4362
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 28 2009,13:29   

Quote (JohnW @ Jan. 28 2009,13:26)
Quote (Wolfhound @ Jan. 27 2009,17:06)
I go to Seattle every August for some dog shows.  Anybody want to go leave a flaming bag of canine leavings on their [three] doorstep[s]?  I can procure the canine leavings, of course.    :)

And in what way will this be distinguishable from their customary product?  They'll never even notice.

NAILED IT!

Do we have One-Liner Of The Week Award yet?

I'd submit your name, but as an Illinoisan, ny Governor insists that for this kind of honor, you owe me some *&6%$$ money...

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 3556
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 30 2009,15:29   

Quote
Discovery Institute in JPost: Darwin Led to Hitler
Opinion | Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 11:51:21 am PST

David Klinghoffer of the anti-evolution Discovery Institute has an opinion column in the Jerusalem Post, attacking Jewish groups like the ADL for protesting against Pope Benedict’s reinstatement of Holocaust-denying Bishop Richard Williamson. Klinghoffer calls it “whining:” The wages of whining.

But the real purpose of Klinghoffer’s column is to attempt to redirect Jewish anger toward the Discovery Institute’s main target: the theory of evolution.



http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article...._Hitler

--------------
”let’s not make a joke of ourselves.”

Pat Robertson

  
Wolfhound



Posts: 468
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 30 2009,16:58   

Quote (JohnW @ Jan. 28 2009,14:26)
Quote (Wolfhound @ Jan. 27 2009,17:06)
I go to Seattle every August for some dog shows.  Anybody want to go leave a flaming bag of canine leavings on their [three] doorstep[s]?  I can procure the canine leavings, of course.    :)

And in what way will this be distinguishable from their customary product?  They'll never even notice.

Erm, uh, it's in Smell-O-Vision?

--------------
I've found my personality to be an effective form of birth control.

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1005
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 31 2009,16:24   

Out of the mouths of IDiots, and especially our Favorite IDiot, Egnor the Egnorant!

It's the Money Quote!


Quote
Intelligent design is the opinion that design is empirically detectable in biology, and that it is the best scientific inference to explain many aspects of biology, especially the genetic code and the complex molecular machinery inside cells.


Look, up in the sky!  Is it a theory?  Is it a notion?  Is it a concept?  Is it pie?

No, it's an "opinion."

Finally, the truth from a Discovery Institute FELLOW his own self.

ID is an opinion.

Egnor:  Tell me the truth, now, does this opinion make my head look fat?

  
JohnW



Posts: 2232
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 02 2009,12:53   

Quote (Doc Bill @ Jan. 31 2009,14:24)
Egnor:  Tell me the truth, now, does this opinion make my head look fat?

No, it doesn't.  It makes your head look very, very slim.  Pin-like.

--------------
Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it.
- Robert Byers

  
Steviepinhead



Posts: 532
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 02 2009,18:43   

Quote (JohnW @ Feb. 02 2009,10:53)
Quote (Doc Bill @ Jan. 31 2009,14:24)
Egnor:  Tell me the truth, now, does this opinion make my head look fat?

No, it doesn't.  It makes your head look very, very slim.  Pin-like.

Now, now...   :D

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1005
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 02 2009,19:02   

I knew that was coming and moved as far away from Ground Zero as possible.

Ixnay on teh inPay edHay.

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4362
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 05 2009,13:23   

HaHa!  I  just received a letter from the DI begging for money to fight the evil Darwinistas!

Included in the packet is:
1. Envelope to mail back money or give them my Credit Card!  Too bad it is not postage paid.  Possibly a very heavy Postage Due mail-back might help them empty their over-flowing coffers.

2.  "Note" from "The desk of David Berlinski, Paris France"
(hand signed btw!) Evidently we are to think that he is exiled and not allowed in the USA. Perhaps Jeannot or The New French Guy Schrodingers Dog could reason with him.
Too bad Marcel Marceau passed on the the BIG CSI in teh Sky -  He probably feels about mimes, the way DaveScot feels about clowns.

3.) An "article" from John G West from the National Review Online entitled The Gospel According to Darwin.  Warns the rubes that Darwin and evilutioniusts are out to kill Christian immortal souls.

4.) A legal sized letter from Teh DI from John West begging for money, with a tear-off on the bottom to I can send money.  Yeah, I'll get right on that asshat.

It is a travesty that they have 501© 3 tax status.

added in edit:  If anyone wants a copy of this crap, PM me and I will scan and send as a pdf email.

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
paragwinn



Posts: 380
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 05 2009,22:28   

Quote (J-Dog @ Feb. 05 2009,13:23)
HaHa!  I  just received a letter from the DI begging for money to fight the evil Darwinistas!

Are they giving you the opportunity to sponsor a DI Fellow for only $24 a month?
Will your sponsored Fellow send you research papers, works in progress reports, personalized pictures and letters relating their experiences at the DI?
Is your money going towards efforts to provide a safe environment within which your sponsored Fellow can pursue research?
Will your money help erase the stigma that comes with being a DI Fellow?

--------------
All women build up a resistance [to male condescension]. Apparently, ID did not predict that. -Kristine 4-19-11
F/Ns to F/Ns to F/Ns etc. The whole thing is F/N ridiculous -Seversky on KF footnote fetish 8-20-11
The geological maps that realist use to make money are all surface maps. -forastero

  
Dr.GH



Posts: 1956
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 05 2009,23:48   

Bravo paragwinn. Definitely a "Best Post Of The Last Several Minutes," or "Post That Is Better Than My Last Five." (OK, ten).

--------------
"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
Badger3k



Posts: 861
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 06 2009,01:56   

Quote (paragwinn @ Feb. 05 2009,22:28)
Quote (J-Dog @ Feb. 05 2009,13:23)
HaHa!  I  just received a letter from the DI begging for money to fight the evil Darwinistas!

Are they giving you the opportunity to sponsor a DI Fellow for only $24 a month?
Will your sponsored Fellow send you research papers, works in progress reports, personalized pictures and letters relating their experiences at the DI?
Is your money going towards efforts to provide a safe environment within which your sponsored Fellow can pursue research?
Will your money help erase the stigma that comes with being a DI Fellow?

I'm not sure of that, but they will send you a "Teiko" sport's watch.  :D

(I think the DI fellow goes by "Marvin")

--------------
"Just think if every species had a different genetic code We would have to eat other humans to survive.." : Joe G

  
Lowell



Posts: 101
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 06 2009,17:11   

Guess who gave a lecture at Liberty University's convocation last Friday?
Quote
According to Behe, “irreducible complexity” is the idea that a system has a number of parts that interact to produce a function that each part on its own could not produce. Using a mousetrap as an example, he explained how the complexity of bacteria flagella (self-propelled cells) in the human body point to an intelligent designer.

Bacteria flagellum is made up of three essential parts: a paddle, a motor and a rotor. He said without any one of these parts the flagella, like a mousetrap without a spring, would cease to function properly.

“Like the mousetrap, it’s extremely difficult to see how something like [bacteria flagella] could be put together by numerous, successive, slight modifications,” he said.

There's a nice big picture of Behe accompanying the article. It would be a shame if someone were to photoshop it in some demeaning way.

--------------
The resurrection of Jesus Christ is one of the most well documented events of antiquity. Barry Arrington, Jan 17, 2012.

  
khan



Posts: 1482
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 06 2009,17:17   

Quote (Lowell @ Feb. 06 2009,18:11)
Guess who gave a lecture at Liberty University's convocation last Friday?
 
Quote
According to Behe, “irreducible complexity” is the idea that a system has a number of parts that interact to produce a function that each part on its own could not produce. Using a mousetrap as an example, he explained how the complexity of bacteria flagella (self-propelled cells) in the human body point to an intelligent designer.

Bacteria flagellum is made up of three essential parts: a paddle, a motor and a rotor. He said without any one of these parts the flagella, like a mousetrap without a spring, would cease to function properly.

“Like the mousetrap, it’s extremely difficult to see how something like [bacteria flagella] could be put together by numerous, successive, slight modifications,” he said.

There's a nice big picture of Behe accompanying the article. It would be a shame if someone were to photoshop it in some demeaning way.

I get a 'not found'.

--------------
"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

  
JonF



Posts: 571
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 06 2009,17:36   

Quote (khan @ Feb. 06 2009,18:17)
I get a 'not found'.

http://tinyurl.com/bohyeh

Interesting choice for the end of that URL.

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1005
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 06 2009,18:09   

Behe Liberty Blah Blah

Pardon my French but fuck me to hell in a handbasket, I can't believe Behe is STILL going on about the freaking mousetrap and flagellum.

I mean, srsly, HOW MANY TIMES does he have to have his nose rubbed in it to get a fucking clue?

He's like Jason coming back over and over and over.  "Intelligent Design" XIX - the Never Ending Flapdoodle

Mousetrap!  (You're wrong.)
Mousetrap!  (You're wrong.)
Mousetrap!  (You're wrong.)

OK, it's like Groundhog Day except Behe NEVER LEARNS!

Of course, I realize he has learned and he knows he's full of shit but he's so happy to spread shit, by god, there's a pony in there somewhere!

OMFG, what an idiot.

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 3556
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 06 2009,19:22   

Quote
According to Behe, “irreducible complexity” is the idea that a system has a number of parts that interact to produce a function that each part on its own could not produce.


Isn't that a change from earlier definitions, and isn't it a bit tautological?

--------------
”let’s not make a joke of ourselves.”

Pat Robertson

  
Richard Simons



Posts: 425
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 06 2009,19:31   

http://tinyurl.com/bohyeh

 
Quote
According to Behe, “irreducible complexity” is the idea that a system has a number of parts that interact to produce a function that each part on its own could not produce.

How many definitions of irreducible complexity has he given us? There was the 'the loss of any part will cause loss of function' definition, the 'cannot arise through evolution' definition and now this. I do wish he would decide on one definition and stick to it. I wonder, have the good people at UD been informed of the latest? I will have to check out their FAQs to see if they are keeping up with the latest in ID research.

ETA: I need to think and type quicker.

--------------
All sweeping statements are wrong.

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2779
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 07 2009,07:57   

Quote (Richard Simons @ Feb. 06 2009,19:31)
http://tinyurl.com/bohyeh

   
Quote
According to Behe, “irreducible complexity” is the idea that a system has a number of parts that interact to produce a function that each part on its own could not produce.

How many definitions of irreducible complexity has he given us? There was the 'the loss of any part will cause loss of function' definition, the 'cannot arise through evolution' definition and now this. I do wish he would decide on one definition and stick to it. I wonder, have the good people at UD been informed of the latest? I will have to check out their FAQs to see if they are keeping up with the latest in ID research.

ETA: I need to think and type quicker.

It is interesting how the same folks who whine about science because "it changes all the time!!!! What am I supposed to believe????" are OK with Behe's definition mutating like this...

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Henry J



Posts: 4058
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 07 2009,16:19   

Quote
It is interesting how the same folks who whine about science because "it changes all the time!!!! What am I supposed to believe????" are OK with Behe's definition mutating like this...

Ah, but the mutations in his definitions are designed, rather than being selected based on their fitness as explanations.

Henry

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1005
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 07 2009,19:43   

So, given the New Improved Definition of Irrefutably Complicated, how might we categorize a chef's knife?

It's a simple machine, a wedge.  (haha, I said "Wedge")  It has a handle, rivets and a blade.  Obviously, it works just fine without the handle or rivets to do "cutting" but the handle and rivets can't do "cutting" by themselves.

I must be missing something, 'cause I can't figure it out.

Ah, ha!

I've got it.

I'm not MISSING something, my problem is that I HAVE something.

A brain.

  
JLT



Posts: 740
Joined: Jan. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 12 2009,08:30   

Quote
Egnor: Science and religion don’t address entirely separate aspects of human experience. There is one truth about the world. The truth about the natural world is obviously a part of metaphysical truth. Science addresses the truth about the natural world, and religion addresses the deeper metaphysical truth. There are no separate magesteria, despite Stephen J. Gould’s spin. If God made the world, then intelligent design is true, assuming that the artifacts of His designing intelligence can be recognized as such. If there is no God, and the world just came to be, then Darwinism is true, because ID and Darwinism are just the affirmative and the negative answer to the same question: is there evidence for design in biology?

This is clear: metaphysical truth determines scientific truth. If there is a designer (metaphysical truth), then intelligent design is true (scientific truth). If there is no designer (metaphysical truth), then Darwinism is true (scientific truth).


Good grief. Egnor really is losing it. He rambles on like this for another six paragraphs, repeating the same point. It's exactly as he puts it: for him and his buddies their preconceived metaphysical "truth" determines scientific truth. No need to actually DO science or look at the evidence - you just know it.

--------------
"Random mutations, if they are truly random, will affect, and potentially damage, any aspect of the organism, [...]
Thus, a realistic [computer] simulation [of evolution] would allow the program, OS, and hardware to be affected in a random fashion." GilDodgen, Frilly shirt owner

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1005
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 12 2009,13:51   

Here it is Darwin's 200th Birthday and the best the DI can do is have Anika "The Tank" Smith report on a Zogby poll about academic freedom.

Nice one, Crowther and West!  Way to strut your stuff!

Wowzer, I'm convinced!

  
Schroedinger's Dog



Posts: 1691
Joined: Jan. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 12 2009,13:55   

Ok, Doc Bill. In regard to this post and the one on the RFJE topic, am I right in assuming that you have once again abused teh ol' bottle O' spirit?  :D

--------------
"Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G

"I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis

"The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

   
RupertG



Posts: 80
Joined: Nov. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 12 2009,15:07   

Quote (JLT @ Feb. 12 2009,08:30)
Quote
Egnor: Science and religion don’t address entirely separate aspects of human experience. There is one truth about the world. The truth about the natural world is obviously a part of metaphysical truth. Science addresses the truth about the natural world, and religion addresses the deeper metaphysical truth. There are no separate magesteria, despite Stephen J. Gould’s spin. If God made the world, then intelligent design is true, assuming that the artifacts of His designing intelligence can be recognized as such. If there is no God, and the world just came to be, then Darwinism is true, because ID and Darwinism are just the affirmative and the negative answer to the same question: is there evidence for design in biology?

This is clear: metaphysical truth determines scientific truth. If there is a designer (metaphysical truth), then intelligent design is true (scientific truth). If there is no designer (metaphysical truth), then Darwinism is true (scientific truth).


Good grief. Egnor really is losing it. He rambles on like this for another six paragraphs, repeating the same point. It's exactly as he puts it: for him and his buddies their preconceived metaphysical "truth" determines scientific truth. No need to actually DO science or look at the evidence - you just know it.

Quite, quite wonderful. It's certainly unarguable - it has that distinctive cargo-cultish logicky tang, where if words are placed in roughly the same sort of order that words are used in normal argument, they magically acquire the same power as normal argument. Like a painting of a dog, it gives off a doggy aura.  But it won't fetch sticks.

A friend of mine was grinding his teeth over this sort of thing, but that's surely one of the intents - to annoy the opposition - along with comforting the believers. I think it's better to just watch and wonder, treating it as an anthropological phenomenon with, if you're lucky, an accompanying insight into some peculiar human condition.

--------------
Uncle Joe and Aunty Mabel
Fainted at the breakfast table
Children, let this be a warning
Never do it in the morning -- Ralph Vaughan Williams

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1005
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 12 2009,15:23   

Once every 200 years I'm allowed to make merry.

Lime Jell-O vodka shots.

  
khan



Posts: 1482
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 12 2009,15:26   

Quote (Doc Bill @ Feb. 12 2009,16:23)
Once every 200 years I'm allowed to make merry.

Lime Jell-O vodka shots.

Back when I was in college (the Pleistocene) we preferred strawberry.

--------------
"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1005
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 12 2009,16:00   

Thunderbird wine mixed with cherry Kool-Aid.

(Hey, maybe that's where I drank the Kool-Aid.)

Then, Annie Green Springs wine came out and there was no turning back.

Bending over and hurling, sure, but no turning back.

** Breaking News! **

The DI has listed a series of Darwin Day peer-reviewed research articles written by DI fellows and supporters.

Oh, sorry, they're OpEd pieces.  John-Boy Wells has a "nice" article that's getting shredded in the comments.  The article sucks but the comments are fun.

  
khan



Posts: 1482
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 12 2009,16:25   

Quote (Doc Bill @ Feb. 12 2009,17:00)
Thunderbird wine mixed with cherry Kool-Aid.

(Hey, maybe that's where I drank the Kool-Aid.)

Then, Annie Green Springs wine came out and there was no turning back.

Bending over and hurling, sure, but no turning back.

** Breaking News! **

The DI has listed a series of Darwin Day peer-reviewed research articles written by DI fellows and supporters.

Oh, sorry, they're OpEd pieces.
 John-Boy Wells has a "nice" article that's getting shredded in the comments.  The article sucks but the comments are fun.

Close enough for creos.

--------------
"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

  
Lowell



Posts: 101
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 12 2009,16:39   

Quote (Doc Bill @ Feb. 12 2009,16:00)
** Breaking News! **

The DI has listed a series of Darwin Day peer-reviewed research articles written by DI fellows and supporters.

Oh, sorry, they're OpEd pieces.  John-Boy Wells has a "nice" article that's getting shredded in the comments.  The article sucks but the comments are fun.

Anybody got a link? I couldn't find it on discovery.org, and it sounds tardalicious.

--------------
The resurrection of Jesus Christ is one of the most well documented events of antiquity. Barry Arrington, Jan 17, 2012.

  
Ptaylor



Posts: 883
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 12 2009,17:41   

These guys don't do well when they leave the shelter of their comment free zones. Casey Luskin indulges in a 6,750+ word whinefest here. Don't bother reading any more than the first few paragraphs - they set the tone for the rest of the piece. The comments, however, are worthwhile.
(Sorry if this is off topic - it's not about the DI, but it is Casey.)

--------------
“To surrender to ignorance and call it God has always been premature, and it remains premature today.” - Isaac Asimov

"Grow up, assface" - Joe G., grown up ID spokesperson, Sandwalk, April 2014

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1005
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 12 2009,17:50   

Here's the Well's piece of shit.

And this from some Texas lawyer goober.

And from Oklahoma we have this.  Hey, ERV, sic 'em!

  
khan



Posts: 1482
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 12 2009,17:57   

Quote (Ptaylor @ Feb. 12 2009,18:41)
These guys don't do well when they leave the shelter of their comment free zones. Casey Luskin indulges in a 6,750+ word whinefest [URL=http://www.usnews.com/blogs/room-for-debate/2009/02/12/darwin-believers-hide-fears-of-intelligent-design-behind-a-wall-of-denial-and-ridicule.htm

l]here[/URL]. Don't bother reading any more than the first few paragraphs - they set the tone for the rest of the piece. The comments, however, are worthwhile.
(Sorry if this is off topic - it's not about the DI, but it is Casey.)

That is some serious whining dumbfuckery.

--------------
"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

  
Schroedinger's Dog



Posts: 1691
Joined: Jan. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2009,00:32   

I love that part in the comments on Luskin's blattering:

Quote
If throwing shoes as a symbol of disrespect was practiced in the US The Discovery Institute would have received a shoe closet that would make even Imelda Marcos jealous.


:D  :D  :D

--------------
"Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G

"I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis

"The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

   
Bob O'H



Posts: 1969
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2009,00:53   

Ha!  In the middle of the 1224 word section on how we evilutionists just ridicule IDers, Luskin write this:
Quote
We should ignore this type of empty rhetoric that is patently designed to intimidate dissenters.

1224 words?  That's a whole lotta ignoring goin' in.

--------------
ID theorists don’t postulate a designer for their arguments. - Crandaddy
There is no connection between a peppered moth, natural selection, and religion that I can see. - FtK

   
Doc Bill



Posts: 1005
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2009,10:31   

Whoa!  Where am I?  Who am I?

I woke up this morning and the party was over and the monkey was dead.*

Darn that Nyquil!




*That's the punchline to a joke I can't remember.

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4482
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2009,10:58   

Casey Luskin:

Quote

Robert Pennock behaves in much the same fashion. In 2006, I observed that the University of California at San Diego ("UCSD," my alma mater) was requiring all freshman students to attend a lecture by Pennock attacking ID. I had no particular problem with that, apart from the fact that this was an imbalanced lecture series and no pro-ID speaker was invited for a similarly mandatory lecture. Pennock responded to my protests by writing a UCSD dean, attacking me as deceptive:

"The article on the Discovery Institute website about my talk (actually prior to my talk) is standard propaganda from these guys and filled with their usual deceptions and factual mistakes." (emphasis added)

In his recent op-ed here with U.S. News & World Report, Pennock likewise attempts to equate ID with creationism (more on this below) and tries to demonize ID proponents by stating that "Creationism, in whatever guise it has taken to get into the schools, has proven itself to be fundamentally deceptive."

Again, we see the use of demonization and character assassination to prevent people from scrutinizing the evidence for themselves.

Clearly, Mr. Katskee, Mr. Pennock, and many other Darwinists feel that the use of namecalling and ridicule should play a central role in their case against intelligent design.


Uh, Casey, your prime supporting quote from Pennock... didn't you notice that it only attacked the ideas and had precisely zero namecalling and zero ridicule content in it?

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
J-Dog



Posts: 4362
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2009,11:06   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Feb. 13 2009,10:58)
Uh, Casey, your prime supporting quote from Pennock... didn't you notice that it only attacked the ideas and had precisely zero namecalling and zero ridicule content in it?


Casey Luskin  - Still Starring in   Clueless In Seattle ...

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
JohnW



Posts: 2232
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2009,11:08   

Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Feb. 12 2009,22:32)
I love that part in the comments on Luskin's blattering:

 
Quote
If throwing shoes as a symbol of disrespect was practiced in the US The Discovery Institute would have received a shoe closet that would make even Imelda Marcos jealous.


:D  :D  :D

Seattle phone book:

Discovery Institute     1511 3rd   206 292-0401
Payless ShoeSource   1529 3rd   206 622-9557

Same building.  I think Mrs Marcos had more expensive tastes, though.

--------------
Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it.
- Robert Byers

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4482
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2009,11:42   

Casey Luskin:

Quote

"Q: Dr. Pennock, isn ' t it true that there ' s not agreement among philosophers of science concerning the validity of methodological naturalism?"

Pennock implies that only philosophers of science who are sympathetic to ID reject methodological naturalism:

"A: The term methodological naturalism is fairly straightforward in the literature. There have been criticisms of it from people like Del Ratzsch from discussions specifically of this debate. So there ' s some who have taken up a sympathetic position to the intelligent design folks and tried to argue that we could dispense with this. (Pennock 2005b, 84)"

Larry Laudan (1983) is a good counterexample to this: he is not sympathetic to ID, yet he rejects methodological naturalism as a demarcation criterion for science. (This follows from the sentence from Laudan ' s paper I quoted in Section 1, as well as from the rest of Laudan ' s paper.)


Casey, didn't you notice the lack of discussion of "demarcation" in the transcript Q&A that you quoted?

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
JLT



Posts: 740
Joined: Jan. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2009,17:25   

I watched the ID - the future video podcast in "honour" of Darwin day and I realised for the first time that by looking at Wells' body language you can actually determine if he his lying.
You really have to look closely otherwise you may miss it. But every time just before he starts lying, he opens his mouth.

--------------
"Random mutations, if they are truly random, will affect, and potentially damage, any aspect of the organism, [...]
Thus, a realistic [computer] simulation [of evolution] would allow the program, OS, and hardware to be affected in a random fashion." GilDodgen, Frilly shirt owner

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1005
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2009,17:49   

My favorite DI Moment of all time was when Mark Ryland from the DI's Washington, D.C. office was on a panel with Richard Thompson who defended the school board in Kitzmiller.

Thompson made a comment that the DI added fuel to the Dover fire by advocating teaching ID in the public school.

Then Ryland said no, no no!  The DI has NEVER advocated teaching ID in the public school.

THEN Thompson pulled out a document that the DI used to have on their website titled something like "How to Teach Intelligent Design and Avoid Constitutional Entanglements - A Teacher's Guide" and waved it in Ryland's face.

Now, remember, these guys are on the SAME SIDE!  It was hilarious.  Ryland shut up fast and Thompson was furious enough to launch into a tirade about how the DI pulled out of the case and what assholes they were.   (Poetic license at work here, but you get the picture.)

Soon after that Ryland left the DI to "pursue other interests" as they say.

Busted, I say!

  
JLT



Posts: 740
Joined: Jan. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2009,19:33   

Quote (Doc Bill @ Feb. 13 2009,23:49)
My favorite DI Moment of all time was when Mark Ryland from the DI's Washington, D.C. office was on a panel with Richard Thompson who defended the school board in Kitzmiller.

Thompson made a comment that the DI added fuel to the Dover fire by advocating teaching ID in the public school.

Then Ryland said no, no no!  The DI has NEVER advocated teaching ID in the public school.

THEN Thompson pulled out a document that the DI used to have on their website titled something like "How to Teach Intelligent Design and Avoid Constitutional Entanglements - A Teacher's Guide" and waved it in Ryland's face.

Now, remember, these guys are on the SAME SIDE!  It was hilarious.  Ryland shut up fast and Thompson was furious enough to launch into a tirade about how the DI pulled out of the case and what assholes they were.   (Poetic license at work here, but you get the picture.)

Soon after that Ryland left the DI to "pursue other interests" as they say.

Busted, I say!

LOL.

I found this little tale about Ryland at The Institute for the Study of Nature homepage:
   
Quote
In the early 1990s Mark became interested in the modern debate over evolution theory, finding merit in modern critiques of the standard (selectionist) understanding of neo-Darwinism. This interest led him to collaborate for a time with the Discovery Institute, a center of gravity for both critics of neo-Darwinism (a broader group, many of whom have no opinion on an alternative explanation for biological evolution) as well as proponents of "intelligent design theory" or "IDT" (who purport to provide an alternative explanation). Eventually he became convinced that IDT was not a real alternative, and he also grew tired of the narrow perspectives and endless bickering that characterize the modern debate about evolution. [...]

See, he wasn't busted. He grew tired of the bickering. And  
Quote
He also discovered that there is a pressing need for the re-development of an explicitly philosophical, classically informed, and non-reductionist approach to nature, synthesizing the wisdom of the ancients with the insights and capabilities of modern scientific ideas and methods.
which is why he co-founded the ISN.
Now you know...

--------------
"Random mutations, if they are truly random, will affect, and potentially damage, any aspect of the organism, [...]
Thus, a realistic [computer] simulation [of evolution] would allow the program, OS, and hardware to be affected in a random fashion." GilDodgen, Frilly shirt owner

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1005
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2009,20:38   

I wonder if Ryland got a layoff package from the DI.

Knowing Ryland's luck he got Luskin's "package."

  
JLT



Posts: 740
Joined: Jan. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 17 2009,11:29   

Looks like Casey Luskin doesn't like Expelled Exposed. He spends more than 4000 words (and ~80 links) on "correc[ting]  the various misrepresentations and falsehoods spread by Darwinists about Expelled."

Maybe he doesn't like the fact that if you google "expelled" you get Expelled Exposed as the first hit and not their lousy movie.

 
Quote
“Expelled Exposed” is now exposed for what it really is: it’s not just a website making the case against ID (which is perfectly fine if that’s what ID critics want to do)—it’s a website attempting to convince people that ID deserves no academic freedom. In other words, “Expelled Exposed” is an effort to encourage the further persecution of ID-proponents.

Ironically, by denying that professionally qualified ID proponents have a right to "a place in academia,” “Expelled Exposed” has justified the central thesis of the documentary Expelled, namely that qualified ID proponents do not receive academic freedom to hold, discuss, and promote their views within the academy.

Someone should tell Luskin that academic freedom isn't the freedom to spout nonsense.

--------------
"Random mutations, if they are truly random, will affect, and potentially damage, any aspect of the organism, [...]
Thus, a realistic [computer] simulation [of evolution] would allow the program, OS, and hardware to be affected in a random fashion." GilDodgen, Frilly shirt owner

  
Schroedinger's Dog



Posts: 1691
Joined: Jan. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 17 2009,12:32   

Sometimes, you just have to stop for a moment and wonder at the infinite stupidity of the ID movement.

Let's say I have a theory that bananas are a kind of fish. I will write books about it, create my own Banana Institute to promote the idea, try to push it in nutrition classes, get my ass handed to me, complain about the evil fruity conspiracy not willing to Teach The Controversy© and finally cry "oppresion" because the institutions refuse to take my claims, or its defenders, seriously.

Academic freedom, yeah. These guys are a tablecloth and a ham sandwich short of a picnic...

--------------
"Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G

"I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis

"The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

   
Doc Bill



Posts: 1005
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 17 2009,15:56   

What I like is how Luskin references his OWN propaganda.

"Hey, they were mean to Sternberg and if you don't believe me just read me.  See, I told you so!"

  
Texas Teach



Posts: 1020
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 17 2009,18:30   

Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Feb. 17 2009,12:32)
Sometimes, you just have to stop for a moment and wonder at the infinite stupidity of the ID movement.

Let's say I have a theory that bananas are a kind of fish. I will write books about it, create my own Banana Institute to promote the idea, try to push it in nutrition classes, get my ass handed to me, complain about the evil fruity conspiracy not willing to Teach The Controversy© and finally cry "oppresion" because the institutions refuse to take my claims, or its defenders, seriously.

Academic freedom, yeah. These guys are a tablecloth and a ham sandwich short of a picnic...

But are fish designed to fit perfectly into your hand?

--------------
"Creationists think everything Genesis says is true. I don't even think Phil Collins is a good drummer." --J. Carr

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4362
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 17 2009,20:20   

Quote (JLT @ Feb. 17 2009,11:29)
Someone should tell Luskin that academic freedom isn't the freedom to spout nonsense.

Sig Worthy!

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Henry J



Posts: 4058
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 17 2009,21:14   

Quote
But are fish designed to fit perfectly into your hand?


The square kind that they serve in fast food places are. ;)

Henry

  
Texas Teach



Posts: 1020
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 17 2009,21:25   

Quote (Henry J @ Feb. 17 2009,21:14)
Quote
But are fish designed to fit perfectly into your hand?


The square kind that they serve in fast food places are. ;)

Henry

Waterloo!!!!!!11111!!!!!1!!!!11!1oneoneone

--------------
"Creationists think everything Genesis says is true. I don't even think Phil Collins is a good drummer." --J. Carr

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3324
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 17 2009,21:26   

Quote (Henry J @ Feb. 17 2009,21:14)
Quote
But are fish designed to fit perfectly into your hand?


The square kind that they serve in fast food places are. ;)

Henry

Like these?

--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
k.e..



Posts: 2881
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 17 2009,22:59   

The DI needs a little help.

It seems pretty clear to me.
To spin away from what THEY say
Bring momentum into play
Give intelligence a new name
To keep asininity in the game
Beget Darwin's anti theme
Generate a modern meme
Creationism's virgin saying
Can have them paying if not praying
Burnish it with well worn words
All will see the shine not turds
Cast it wide as warm and brown
Not green causing stuffed shirt frown

When you hate natural selection
Drag out your predilection
Wave it 'round for all to see
..Ahh ..just not in front of me
Then proceed to ram projection
In the the sphincter of prediction
Multiply and make it wander
Crowds will gather for a gander
“Look” they will blurt
“Casey's not been hurt”
He rises phoenix  from ID rubble
With brand new word in a bubble
Claiming not selection never nature
Adam's apple blew that day sure
Eve's to blame for our pickle
Not her creeper who could pedal
Cannot use the 'anti' message
Must be something from Messiah
Done to death by Roman Law
Anyone for crucifixion?


Never mind they onward blunder
Fearing all of Howard's thunder
'Casey you useless shit
Ahmanson  turrets in a snit
'Where's my new plan you little nerd
'Don't worry sir it's all but heard
Casey and the DI ponder
When's the best time to send it yonder?
'Rap it Casey' Sal advises
'Yeh dude' he blissfully surmises
'I'll back you all the way
'..but not today.
'I know what to do
We'll fix Darwin's diabolical design
We'll call it God's Industrial Revolution™

Give us not God's long plan
Casey Casey he's our man


--------------
"I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his clown DaveTard suit" dogdidit
"Abbie Smith (ERV) who's got to be the most obnoxious arrogant snot I've ever seen except for when I look in a mirror" DAVE TARD
"ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1005
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 19 2009,18:23   

Over at Evo Spews and Snooze, David Klinghoffer (Hey, David, what's that clinging to your hoffer?), is indignant

INDIGNANT, I say

about being called a dishonest creationist.

Is there any other kind?

Seems that the Klingmeister sent an unsolicited request for a university event to a representative of said university and was shocked

SHOCKED, I say

to find said unsolicited email request posted on PZ's website for all on the Intertubes to see.

"How dare they post my Spam," fumed Klingknocker!

The Klingster then proceeded to lambast against the gentle biology prof from Vermont  and Ben Stein with dialogue directly out of Star Trek.

Regarding Stein, Colonel Kling stated, "Dammit, Jim, he's an entertainer, not a doctor!"

I guess Ben won't get an invitation to the DI's Annual Picnic and Crow Eating Contest this year.

Check out the fun at
Pharyngula and
E&V Screed.

Srsly, folks, you can't make this stuff up.

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4362
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 19 2009,18:27   

Quote (Doc Bill @ Feb. 19 2009,18:23)
Over at Evo Spews and Snooze, David Klinghoffer (Hey, David, what's that clinging to your hoffer?), is indignant

INDIGNANT, I say

about being called a dishonest creationist.

Is there any other kind?

Seems that the Klingmeister sent an unsolicited request for a university event to a representative of said university and was shocked

SHOCKED, I say

to find said unsolicited email request posted on PZ's website for all on the Intertubes to see.

"How dare they post my Spam," fumed Klingknocker!

The Klingster then proceeded to lambast against the gentle biology prof from Vermont  and Ben Stein with dialogue directly out of Star Trek.

Regarding Stein, Colonel Kling stated, "Dammit, Jim, he's an entertainer, not a doctor!"

I guess Ben won't get an invitation to the DI's Annual Picnic and Crow Eating Contest this year.

Check out the fun at
Pharyngula and
E&V Screed.

Srsly, folks, you can't make this stuff up.

I just got a thank you note from the Good Doctor thanking me for thanking him for spanking Klinghoffer!

I'm never gonna wash my keyboard again!

(I paraphrased on the actual wording, but that's what it said!)

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1005
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 19 2009,20:38   

Not to brag, but I got a note from the Good Doctor before it appeared on PZ's website and sent a copy, with permission from the Good Doctor, how ironic is that, to Genie Scott.

I'm having his baby.

Doc Bill Jr.

You're all invited to the Baby Shower.


(OK, I'm bragging.)

  
Henry J



Posts: 4058
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 19 2009,22:05   

Quote
about being called a dishonest creationist.

Is there any other kind?


Hard to tell, since an honest one would presumably not repeat an argument after hearing a refutation of it, I'd guess that nearly all the argumentation comes from the other kind.

Henry

  
Ptaylor



Posts: 883
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 20 2009,01:07   

Dear Dr Klinghoffer,

I read and enjoyed your article "What Is Hypocrisy, After All?" at Evolution News & Views. I followed your links to Pharyngula and to Prof Gotelli's web page (and from there to his Burlington Post op-ed piece). Both pieces were of course outrageous and both (i.e. Pharyngula and the BP article) had comments sections where readers could voice their disapproval or otherwise.

Where can I provide feedback like this on EN&V?

Yours,

Paul Taylor

--------------
“To surrender to ignorance and call it God has always been premature, and it remains premature today.” - Isaac Asimov

"Grow up, assface" - Joe G., grown up ID spokesperson, Sandwalk, April 2014

  
AmandaHuginKiss



Posts: 150
Joined: Dec. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 06 2009,21:27   

Those atheists from the Vatican and the Templeton Foundation are stopping the  DI from contributing.

I have read this before but it is nice to see the Vatican and the TI panning the DI in public.

  
k.e..



Posts: 2881
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 06 2009,21:53   

Quote (AmandaHuginKiss @ Mar. 07 2009,05:27)
Those atheists from the Vatican and the Templeton Foundation are stopping the  DI from contributing.

I have read this before but it is nice to see the Vatican and the TI panning the DI in public.

Help were being supressed

Quote
"We think that it's not a scientific perspective, nor a theological or philosophical one," said the Rev. Marc Leclerc, the conference director and a professor of philosophy of nature at the Gregorian. "This makes a dialogue very difficult, maybe impossible."



BWHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA

--------------
"I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his clown DaveTard suit" dogdidit
"Abbie Smith (ERV) who's got to be the most obnoxious arrogant snot I've ever seen except for when I look in a mirror" DAVE TARD
"ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 07 2009,00:09   

it's not science nor philosophy nor theology

roflmffffao

ITS THE TROOF HOMO.  WRITE THAT DOWN

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1005
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 24 2009,17:41   

Under the heading of Deja Vu All Over Again, the DI posted a brain fart by our favorite Heeeeeeere's Johnny Wells in response to something Coyne wrote.

What does Johnny-boy raise as a devastating rebuttal to Coyne's remarks?

Some cutting-edge research fresh out of the Biologic Institute?

No.

Results of research Wells has done at his lab in Frog Fur, Florida?

Nope.

A revolutionary computer simulation from the Marks & Dembski Centir for Intelligent Design, Tire and Hair Care Emporium in Waco, Texas?

Uh, not quite.

OK, whatever Wells did PLEASE let it not be the tired old Cambrian Explosion and Haeckel and Jaeckel!  Please, pleasepleasepleaseplease!

Ding! Correct answer.  Yes, Wells trotted out for almost as many times as Apple has downloaded apps from iTunes the Good Old Cambrian Explosion.

Srsly.

It's like Wells is playing the Sands and there's nobody in the audience.  Take my Cambrian Explosion ... please!

  
Badger3k



Posts: 861
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: April 24 2009,22:41   

Quote (Doc Bill @ April 24 2009,17:41)
Under the heading of Deja Vu All Over Again, the DI posted a brain fart by our favorite Heeeeeeere's Johnny Wells in response to something Coyne wrote.

What does Johnny-boy raise as a devastating rebuttal to Coyne's remarks?

Some cutting-edge research fresh out of the Biologic Institute?

No.

Results of research Wells has done at his lab in Frog Fur, Florida?

Nope.

A revolutionary computer simulation from the Marks & Dembski Centir for Intelligent Design, Tire and Hair Care Emporium in Waco, Texas?

Uh, not quite.

OK, whatever Wells did PLEASE let it not be the tired old Cambrian Explosion and Haeckel and Jaeckel!  Please, pleasepleasepleaseplease!

Ding! Correct answer.  Yes, Wells trotted out for almost as many times as Apple has downloaded apps from iTunes the Good Old Cambrian Explosion.

Srsly.

It's like Wells is playing the Sands and there's nobody in the audience.  Take my Cambrian Explosion ... please!

There's a Cambrian Explosion App?  Damn, I guess they do have an App for everything...

Hmm - a creationist bingo app?  There could be gold in them thar hills!

--------------
"Just think if every species had a different genetic code We would have to eat other humans to survive.." : Joe G

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1005
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: June 15 2009,14:58   

Stephen Meyer, Director of Something Very Important at the Dishonesty Institute, has a new book coming out!

It's called "The Bafflegab of Tard" or along those lines.  They even have a pitiful Blogspot-esque website that I'll leave as an exercise for the student to find.

There is a link to Dr. Meyer's long and illustrious biography that contains this choice bit when referring to his previous "publication" of nearly 5 years ago:

Quote
Prior to the publication of Signature in the Cell (ed. aka Bafflegab of Tard), the piece of writing for which Meyer was best known was an August 2004 review essay in the Smithsonian Institution-affiliated peer-reviewed biology journal Proceedings of the Biological Society of Washington. The article laid out the evidential case for intelligent design, that certain features of living organisms--such as the miniature machines and complex circuits within cells--are better explained by an unspecified designing intelligence than by an undirected natural process like random mutation and natural selection.

Because the article was the first peer-review publication in a technical journal arguing for ID, the journal’s editor, evolutionary biologist Richard Sternberg, was punished by his Smithsonian supervisors for allowing Meyer’s pro-ID case into print. This led to an investigation of top Smithsonian personnel by the U.S. Office of Special Counsel, widely covered in the media, including the Wall Street Journal and Washington Post. The federal investigation concluded that Sternberg had been wrongly disciplined and intimidated. The case led to widespread public indignation at the pressures placed on Darwin-doubting scientists not only at the Smithsonian but at universities around the U.S. and elsewhere.


Dirty laundry in a freaking BIOGRAPHY!

Pitiful.

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4482
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: June 15 2009,17:29   

Quote

The federal investigation concluded that Sternberg had been wrongly disciplined and intimidated. The case led to widespread public indignation at the pressures placed on Darwin-doubting scientists not only at the Smithsonian but at universities around the U.S. and elsewhere.


The federal investigation concluded that there were no grounds on which the Office of Special Counsel could proceed. A political hack working there offered an unofficial opinion that Sternberg could pursue a civil complaint against the Smithsonian. Sternberg has declined to do so, AFAICT.

It doesn't sound quite so portentous when accurately described, does it?

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
JLT



Posts: 740
Joined: Jan. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: June 15 2009,17:32   

Quote (Doc Bill @ June 15 2009,20:58)
Stephen Meyer, Director of Something Very Important at the Dishonesty Institute, has a new book coming out!

It's called "The Bafflegab of Tard" or along those lines.  They even have a pitiful Blogspot-esque website that I'll leave as an exercise for the student to find.

There is a link to Dr. Meyer's long and illustrious biography that contains this choice bit when referring to his previous "publication" of nearly 5 years ago:

 
Quote
Prior to the publication of Signature in the Cell (ed. aka Bafflegab of Tard), the piece of writing for which Meyer was best known was an August 2004 review essay in the Smithsonian Institution-affiliated peer-reviewed biology journal Proceedings of the Biological Society of Washington. The article laid out the evidential case for intelligent design, that certain features of living organisms--such as the miniature machines and complex circuits within cells--are better explained by an unspecified designing intelligence than by an undirected natural process like random mutation and natural selection.

Because the article was the first peer-review publication in a technical journal arguing for ID, the journal’s editor, evolutionary biologist Richard Sternberg, was punished by his Smithsonian supervisors for allowing Meyer’s pro-ID case into print. This led to an investigation of top Smithsonian personnel by the U.S. Office of Special Counsel, widely covered in the media, including the Wall Street Journal and Washington Post. The federal investigation concluded that Sternberg had been wrongly disciplined and intimidated. The case led to widespread public indignation at the pressures placed on Darwin-doubting scientists not only at the Smithsonian but at universities around the U.S. and elsewhere.


Dirty laundry in a freaking BIOGRAPHY!

Pitiful.

From teh short video about the book:
Quote
If you want to produce life in the first place, if you want to develop a new form of life from a preexisting form of life you have to provide information. So the question is where does that information comes from...
[SCM’s book] will show that the digital code embedded in DNA points powerfully to a designing intelligence and helps unravel a mystery that Darwin did not address: How did the very first life begin.

That's just depressing.

The Bafflegab of Tard
Index
Ch. 1: Paley's Watch
Ch. 2: A cell is more complicated than a watch
Ch. 3: Where did the information come from?
Ch. 3: Code is designed, DNA is code, therefore God
Ch. 4: Also, first cell was designed because nothing comes from nothing
Ch. 5: How can you not be convinced by this?
Ch. 6: I was Expelled because Darwinists were afraid of me
Ch. 7: Waterloo

--------------
"Random mutations, if they are truly random, will affect, and potentially damage, any aspect of the organism, [...]
Thus, a realistic [computer] simulation [of evolution] would allow the program, OS, and hardware to be affected in a random fashion." GilDodgen, Frilly shirt owner

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: June 15 2009,18:11   

if it doesn't end with waterloo it doesn't pass the offering plate test.  good tard is uplifting.  jolly good show and all that kinda stuff

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Timothy McDougald



Posts: 1007
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 28 2009,19:31   

H'mph! The Disco Institute gets a two'fer in an Associated Press article on Wallace. Flannery and Dembski's new "book" on Wallace gets mentioned, as does Roy Davies crud.

--------------
Church burning ebola boy

FTK: I Didn't answer your questions because it beats the hell out of me.

PaV: I suppose for me to be pried away from what I do to focus long and hard on that particular problem would take, quite honestly, hundreds of thousands of dollars to begin to pique my interest.

   
J-Dog



Posts: 4362
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 28 2009,20:59   

Quote (afarensis @ June 28 2009,19:31)
H'mph! The Disco Institute gets a two'fer in an Associated Press article on Wallace. Flannery and Dembski's new "book" on Wallace gets mentioned, as does Roy Davies crud.

They would be better off talking about Ray   Davies "Return To Waterloo" ...

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4482
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: July 13 2009,19:28   

Illogic and Innumeracy at the Discovery Institute

Dr. Ann Gauger shows she has the right spin for the DI.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
midwifetoad



Posts: 3556
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 13 2009,19:50   

Quote
If three out of the four forces driving evolution are non-adaptive, then perhaps most evolutionary change is also non-adaptive, and not due to the power of natural selection.




--------------
”let’s not make a joke of ourselves.”

Pat Robertson

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 3556
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 13 2009,20:18   

Quote
A trivial result from examination of the genetic code is that about 20% of possible single nucleotide changes are completely neutral, meaning that a substantial proportion of a genome could change without engaging any selection at all. On the other hand, only about 1.5% of the human genome codes for proteins. Selective processes can be far less frequently in action than drift and yet have important effects on the evolution of traits; what the mode of evolution is does not eliminate selection as the cause of the various phenomena Gauger lists.

Question, not a comment:

Are some "neutral" mutations important in retrospect? That is, does context change the interpretation of a mutation? Does the accumulation of non-selected mutations ever look, in retrospect, like a chain of selection?

--------------
”let’s not make a joke of ourselves.”

Pat Robertson

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4482
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: July 13 2009,21:33   

Quote (midwifetoad @ July 13 2009,20:18)
 
Quote
A trivial result from examination of the genetic code is that about 20% of possible single nucleotide changes are completely neutral, meaning that a substantial proportion of a genome could change without engaging any selection at all. On the other hand, only about 1.5% of the human genome codes for proteins. Selective processes can be far less frequently in action than drift and yet have important effects on the evolution of traits; what the mode of evolution is does not eliminate selection as the cause of the various phenomena Gauger lists.

Question, not a comment:

Are some "neutral" mutations important in retrospect? That is, does context change the interpretation of a mutation? Does the accumulation of non-selected mutations ever look, in retrospect, like a chain of selection?

I'm not intending any implication of exclusion. It looks like quite a lot of important evolutionary events, like various speciation events, are neutral. But Gauger's argument to dismiss selection as incapable of important evolutionary change is completely specious.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
midwifetoad



Posts: 3556
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 13 2009,22:25   

All I'm suggesting, based on my own fiddling around, is that there is no need to assume that each step in the invention of a new function must be selected.

Of course I'm thinking of Behe's irreducible structures.

I see no reason why a population rich in fitness equivalent variants cannot occasionally produce a significant new capability. Looking backward at the history it might look like a continuous chain leading toward a goal, but seen in the context of a population, it would not look like continuous cumulative selection.

Forgive me for asking what may be naive questions, but I'm not a biologist.

--------------
”let’s not make a joke of ourselves.”

Pat Robertson

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4482
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: July 13 2009,22:58   

Quote

All I'm suggesting, based on my own fiddling around, is that there is no need to assume that each step in the invention of a new function must be selected.


This is true.

Gauger's claim, though, wasn't about monotonicity.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
JLT



Posts: 740
Joined: Jan. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 14 2009,03:49   

Quote (midwifetoad @ July 14 2009,04:25)
All I'm suggesting, based on my own fiddling around, is that there is no need to assume that each step in the invention of a new function must be selected.

After a gene duplication mutations in the duplicated gene that limit/alter the original functionality (and might have been deleterious in the original gene) can spread trough genetic drift. Subsequent mutations can lead to a complete loss of the duplicated gene but in rare cases they can convey a new function (or altered enzyme specificity or ...).

Maybe not a perfect example for this but still interesting in this context is the evolution of hormone receptors.

--------------
"Random mutations, if they are truly random, will affect, and potentially damage, any aspect of the organism, [...]
Thus, a realistic [computer] simulation [of evolution] would allow the program, OS, and hardware to be affected in a random fashion." GilDodgen, Frilly shirt owner

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3324
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 14 2009,05:58   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ July 13 2009,19:28)
Illogic and Innumeracy at the Discovery Institute

Dr. Ann Gauger shows she has the right spin for the DI.

That name sounded familiar.

From a report on the 2007 Wistar conference by Daniel R Brooks found here:
Quote
The next presentation in this session was by Ann Gauger, a microbiologist and employee of the Biologic Institute, whose presentation was entitled, “Assessing the difficulty of pathway evolution: an experimental test.” Her presentation was remarkable in part because she performed experiments and reported original data.

She began with the repetitive attempt at a reductio ad absurdum, stating that the current complexity of metabolic pathways within cells could not have been created by gene duplication or gene recruitment (another name for co-option), and therefore they were designed. She suggested that contemporary evolutionists believe if there is not a payoff in terms of adaptive value within a few generations, any duplicated gene will be lost, and that for recruitment/co-option to work, function must change within a very few mutations. It is factually untrue that these assertions are an essential part of Darwinian theory. At most, they were initial starting points for investigations into protein evolution long ago, but today’s evolutionary biology does not adhere to any of them. Gene duplication is considered an integral part of evolutionary dynamics and one major source of the co-option that is so ubiquitous in evolution.

She suggested that when similar proteins are “arranged by hierarchy,” the evidence suggests they arose from a common ancestor that predates the eukaryote/prokaryote split and perhaps even the Archaea. Gauger thus, like Behe, accepted not only a phylogeny of life but an ancient singular origin of life. Then she embarked on a series of experiments designed to emulate 2 billion years of microbial evolution in Petri dishes over a few bacterial generations. Specifically, she wanted to see if either of two forms of a protein would mutate directly into the other under those experimental conditions. They did not.

Gunther Wagner congratulated Dr. Gauger on doing some great experimental work, but noted some logical inconsistencies in inference. The first is a phylogenetic comparative issue; it is necessary to know the ancestral state of the two proteins. If you are dealing with two proteins each derived separately from a common ancestor, then the experiment involves a minimum of two steps, backwards to the ancestral condition and then forwards to the alternative derived condition. It seems unlikely that you would be able to do that experimentally, especially if you have no idea of the environmental conditions under which the evolutionary diversification took place, and no idea if there were any intermediate forms that no longer survive. In response, Gauger admitted that the two proteins she studied are quite old and that studies of enzymes that are more recently diverged from each other report a lot of functional co-option, but only on a small scale.

She was then prompted by one of her colleagues to regale us with some new experimental finds. She gave what amounted to a second presentation, during which she discussed “leaky growth,” in microbial colonies at high densities, leading to horizontal transfer of genetic information, and announced that under such conditions she had actually found a novel variant that seemed to lead to enhanced colony growth. Gunther Wagner said, “So, a beneficial mutation happened right in your lab?” at which point the moderator halted questioning. We shuffled off for a coffee break with the admission hanging in the air that natural processes could not only produce new information, they could produce beneficial new information.


--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 14 2009,07:19   

carlson i've said it before and i'll say it again, I truly value your powers of recall.  Good find.

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1005
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 14 2009,11:34   

Ann promises us Big Things in Part 2!

Quote
In the next post I will consider some of the implications of this controversy for intelligent design theory.


I'm extremely confident that Annie will fill in the blanks for us:

The theory of intelligent design is *blank*

The implications to the theory of intelligent design are *blank*

We shall see!  I can't wait.

**UPDATE ! !**

Late breaking news.  Ann's Part 2 is up and sure enough she filled in the blanks.

Unfortunately, she filled the blanks with blanks.


They need a new slogan:  Biologic - Shooting Blanks Since 2005

  
ERV



Posts: 329
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 14 2009,13:18   

Quote (midwifetoad @ July 13 2009,20:18)
Quote
A trivial result from examination of the genetic code is that about 20% of possible single nucleotide changes are completely neutral, meaning that a substantial proportion of a genome could change without engaging any selection at all. On the other hand, only about 1.5% of the human genome codes for proteins. Selective processes can be far less frequently in action than drift and yet have important effects on the evolution of traits; what the mode of evolution is does not eliminate selection as the cause of the various phenomena Gauger lists.

Question, not a comment:

Are some "neutral" mutations important in retrospect? That is, does context change the interpretation of a mutation? Does the accumulation of non-selected mutations ever look, in retrospect, like a chain of selection?

From my perspective-- Absolutely!  Context always matters!

Certain amino acids in HIV-1 envelope protein are 100% necessary in some subtypes... but not others.  You change the AA landscape of a protein, you change the tertiary structure, and a 'neutral'/variable position becomes deleterious/necessary.

Every domain is coevolving with every other domain.  Context totally matters.

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 14 2009,13:36   

ummm but what about duh e-scentual information that jesus put in there?  that must be taken literally not contextually!

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4482
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: July 14 2009,15:35   

Quote

They need a new slogan:  Biologic - Shooting Blanks Since 2005


I recall hearing that the National Enquirer paid really, really well by journalism standards. Of course, the pay scale followed from the fact that working for the National Enquirer was a terminal move so far as a journalism career went, so they had to offer something extra.

So far as I can tell, all the Biologic Institute offers extra is potential martyrdom for its employees, if you include as martyrdom pulling in whatever book sales can bear and the honoraria from touring around various churches and whining about how one has been "expelled" from something. Hint: "martyr" is not what you are when someone argues with you, or disagrees with you vehemently.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Henry J



Posts: 4058
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 14 2009,16:06   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ July 14 2009,14:35)
Hint: "martyr" is not what you are when someone argues with you, or disagrees with you vehemently.

Sort of like the movie line "you keep using that word. I do not believe it means what you think it means."

  
JLT



Posts: 740
Joined: Jan. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 25 2009,07:44   

Very good video about the Disco'tutes religious roots. Some of it you'll probably know already but there were some useful little facts in it that I hadn't heard before:
Discovery Institute: Let the TRUTH Be Told (part 1) and (part 2)

--------------
"Random mutations, if they are truly random, will affect, and potentially damage, any aspect of the organism, [...]
Thus, a realistic [computer] simulation [of evolution] would allow the program, OS, and hardware to be affected in a random fashion." GilDodgen, Frilly shirt owner

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4362
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 25 2009,09:08   

Quote (JLT @ July 25 2009,07:44)
Very good video about the Disco'tutes religious roots. Some of it you'll probably know already but there were some useful little facts in it that I hadn't heard before:
Discovery Institute: Let the TRUTH Be Told (part 1) and (part 2)

Thanks for the post and the link!

Yeah, I knew all that, but it was good to see the presentation, the presentations was well done, and laughing and pointing at the screen shots of Luskin are always fun and good to do.

This is an outstanding source to use in educating someone new to the DI's and the ID shill game.

Any puppets - willing to accept martydom - should link and/or post about this at UD!

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
JLT



Posts: 740
Joined: Jan. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 25 2009,10:22   

Quote (J-Dog @ July 25 2009,15:08)
 
Quote (JLT @ July 25 2009,07:44)
Very good video about the Disco'tutes religious roots. Some of it you'll probably know already but there were some useful little facts in it that I hadn't heard before:
Discovery Institute: Let the TRUTH Be Told (part 1) and (part 2)

Thanks for the post and the link!

Yeah, I knew all that, but it was good to see the presentation, the presentations was well done, and laughing and pointing at the screen shots of Luskin are always fun and good to do.

This is an outstanding source to use in educating someone new to the DI's and the ID shill game.

Any puppets - willing to accept martydom - should link and/or post about this at UD!

One of these days I'll have to register at UD...
Unfortunately, I've got only one chance for puppetry. It's very unlikely, with all their design detection methods, that they wouldn't recognise my German accent the second time around...

--------------
"Random mutations, if they are truly random, will affect, and potentially damage, any aspect of the organism, [...]
Thus, a realistic [computer] simulation [of evolution] would allow the program, OS, and hardware to be affected in a random fashion." GilDodgen, Frilly shirt owner

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3324
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 25 2009,10:31   

Quote (JLT @ July 25 2009,07:44)
Very good video about the Disco'tutes religious roots. Some of it you'll probably know already but there were some useful little facts in it that I hadn't heard before:
Discovery Institute: Let the TRUTH Be Told (part 1) and (part 2)



--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4362
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 25 2009,11:23   

Quote (carlsonjok @ July 25 2009,10:31)
Quote (JLT @ July 25 2009,07:44)
Very good video about the Disco'tutes religious roots. Some of it you'll probably know already but there were some useful little facts in it that I hadn't heard before:
Discovery Institute: Let the TRUTH Be Told (part 1) and (part 2)


But I am not sure that I can ever forgive Luskin for stealing this poor kitty's eyebrows... Perhaps a call to Homeland Security the Enforcement Division of PETA might be in order?



Edited by Lou FCD on July 25 2009,21:11

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
khan



Posts: 1482
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 25 2009,12:18   

Quote (carlsonjok @ July 25 2009,11:31)
Quote (JLT @ July 25 2009,07:44)
Very good video about the Disco'tutes religious roots. Some of it you'll probably know already but there were some useful little facts in it that I hadn't heard before:
Discovery Institute: Let the TRUTH Be Told (part 1) and (part 2)


POTW!

--------------
"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

  
Timothy McDougald



Posts: 1007
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 25 2009,14:34   

Quote (khan @ July 25 2009,12:18)
Quote (carlsonjok @ July 25 2009,11:31)
Quote (JLT @ July 25 2009,07:44)
Very good video about the Disco'tutes religious roots. Some of it you'll probably know already but there were some useful little facts in it that I hadn't heard before:
Discovery Institute: Let the TRUTH Be Told (part 1) and (part 2)


POTW!

Seconded!

--------------
Church burning ebola boy

FTK: I Didn't answer your questions because it beats the hell out of me.

PaV: I suppose for me to be pried away from what I do to focus long and hard on that particular problem would take, quite honestly, hundreds of thousands of dollars to begin to pique my interest.

   
JLT



Posts: 740
Joined: Jan. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 25 2009,16:15   

Quote (carlsonjok @ July 25 2009,16:31)
       
Quote (JLT @ July 25 2009,07:44)
Very good video about the Disco'tutes religious roots. Some of it you'll probably know already but there were some useful little facts in it that I hadn't heard before:
Discovery Institute: Let the TRUTH Be Told (part 1) and (part 2)


       
Quote
Forgiveness: Prescription for Health and Happiness

This ground breaking approach offers insights into the healing powers and medical benefits of forgiveness. Dr. Fred Casey Luskin offers a powerful method in which the emphasis is of letting go of hurt, helplessness and anger while increasing confidence, hope and happiness. Through these powerful techniques individuals can learn how to release unwanted hurts and grudges and open themselves to happiness, peace and love.

Did you let go of you hurt, helplessness, and anger yet?

XOX
JLT

--------------
"Random mutations, if they are truly random, will affect, and potentially damage, any aspect of the organism, [...]
Thus, a realistic [computer] simulation [of evolution] would allow the program, OS, and hardware to be affected in a random fashion." GilDodgen, Frilly shirt owner

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 10110
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 05 2009,16:30   

Cool:

http://homepage.mac.com/pmcarlton/.Pictures/propaganda/DI_mosaic.jpg

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4362
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 05 2009,19:55   

Quote (Richardthughes @ Aug. 05 2009,16:30)
Cool:

http://homepage.mac.com/pmcarlton/.Pictures/propaganda/DI_mosaic.jpg

I'm not sure if that is art, or just some Christo-Luskin with a fetish about posting pictures of naked men in pain... OK it's not art.

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4362
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 10 2009,13:41   

DISCOVERY BREAKS NEW ALCHEMY GROUND!

CONTINUES TO TURN PAPER INTO GOLD!

I just their latest abuse of the IRS 503© code, the lying scumbags at the DI have sent another letter to their loyal IDiot troops asking for money to support their lavish lifestyle by buying Stephen Meyer's latest excuse for a book.

They also include - at no extra charge!- the one page, two-sided bullshit screed that appeared in the Boston Globe and purports to show why Thomas Jefferson was an IDist.  

No better way to end this note than to quote from their latest vomit-inducing list of lies:

 
Quote
ps: For a gift of $150 or more, we will send you a copy of Signature in the Cell.  You won't want to miss the book that Norman Nevi, one of Britain's leading genticists, is calling "a landmark in the intelligent design debate."


pps:  If anyone wants more details, or a scan copy of the actual letter or Meyer's article, PM me with contact details and I'll try to get it to you.  I personally recommend everyone go right to the source and use a puppet to sign up for ALL the latest DI mail scams.  You'll be glad you did!

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1005
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 10 2009,16:44   

The DI has a video on YouTube:

Ziggy in the Cell

I thought it was Ziggy, but I didn't see Ziggy.  Thank Monkey for that!

Anyway, Meyer comments in the video that just after a protein is sequenced it enters a "barrel shaped machine" where the protein is folded.

What the hell is he talking about?  Barrel shaped machine?  It's been a while but I thought the final conformation resulted from the secondary structure (cross-links) derived from the primary structure (amino acid sequence).

Need education on this please!

(I know it may be a shock to some of you that old Doc Bill doesn't know everything, but there you have it.)

Also, comments are currently open on YouTube (hint, hint).

  
Tracy P. Hamilton



Posts: 1237
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 10 2009,17:03   

Quote (Doc Bill @ Aug. 10 2009,16:44)
The DI has a video on YouTube:

Ziggy in the Cell

I thought it was Ziggy, but I didn't see Ziggy.  Thank Monkey for that!

Anyway, Meyer comments in the video that just after a protein is sequenced it enters a "barrel shaped machine" where the protein is folded.

What the hell is he talking about?  Barrel shaped machine?  It's been a while but I thought the final conformation resulted from the secondary structure (cross-links) derived from the primary structure (amino acid sequence).

Need education on this please!

(I know it may be a shock to some of you that old Doc Bill doesn't know everything, but there you have it.)

Also, comments are currently open on YouTube (hint, hint).

Doc Bill,

The barrel shaped protein is a chaperone.  Of course, the designer had to use one to get the proteins to fold.  ;)

--------------
"Following what I just wrote about fitness, you’re taking refuge in what we see in the world."  PaV

"The simple equation F = MA leads to the concept of four-dimensional space." GilDodgen

"We have no brain, I don't, for thinking." Robert Byers

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1005
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 10 2009,17:19   

Yeah, so who chaperoned the chaperone, eh?

Are chaperone proteins generic or specific?

OK, I just read up on chaperone proteins at Wikipedia and it sounds more like chemistry than what Meyer described as a "barrel shaped machine" that "molds" the protein, or did he say "shaped?"

Who cares about Meyer!  I got bored and Googled "jennifer anniston nude pix" and got more hits.  Come to think about it, I could probably use a chaperone myself.

  
JLT



Posts: 740
Joined: Jan. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 28 2009,05:59   

Egnor's latest:
 
Quote
It’ll be interesting to see how the struggle between the new atheists and the framing atheists works itself out. I have no doubt that the new atheist approach is of considerable help to the ID movement. New atheism is an amalgam of all that is odious about atheism: self-aggrandizing arrogance, ignorance of even the rudiments of philosophy or theology or history, and the inexorable recourse to censorship, professional destruction, and other totalitarian methods. The only way in which the new atheists make the theist job harder in this debate is that the new atheists are so radically explicit that they’re difficult to satirize.

Framing atheists are much more difficult to deal with. They are less likely to be practicing scientists, but they are much savvier about the effective advancement of their ideology. The only way that atheism can advance is if it is implicit in cultural change, not explicit. That is why Darwinism has been atheism’s most powerful engine, bar none. The assertion that there is no God and therefore no teleology in nature is, to thoughtful men, transparent nonsense; it can only be advanced by cloaking it in ‘science’ — ill-defined concepts such as ‘evolution’ serve nicely, and have been remarkably effective.

LOL.

--------------
"Random mutations, if they are truly random, will affect, and potentially damage, any aspect of the organism, [...]
Thus, a realistic [computer] simulation [of evolution] would allow the program, OS, and hardware to be affected in a random fashion." GilDodgen, Frilly shirt owner

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4362
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 28 2009,12:50   

Quote (JLT @ Aug. 28 2009,05:59)
Egnor's latest:
 
Quote
It’ll be interesting to see how the struggle between the new atheists and the framing atheists works itself out. I have no doubt that the new atheist approach is of considerable help to the ID movement. New atheism is an amalgam of all that is odious about atheism: self-aggrandizing arrogance, ignorance of even the rudiments of philosophy or theology or history, and the inexorable recourse to censorship, professional destruction, and other totalitarian methods. The only way in which the new atheists make the theist job harder in this debate is that the new atheists are so radically explicit that they’re difficult to satirize.

Framing atheists are much more difficult to deal with. They are less likely to be practicing scientists, but they are much savvier about the effective advancement of their ideology. The only way that atheism can advance is if it is implicit in cultural change, not explicit. That is why Darwinism has been atheism’s most powerful engine, bar none. The assertion that there is no God and therefore no teleology in nature is, to thoughtful men, transparent nonsense; it can only be advanced by cloaking it in ‘science’ — ill-defined concepts such as ‘evolution’ serve nicely, and have been remarkably effective.

LOL.

Quote
  New atheism Dr. Egnor is an amalgam of all that is odious about atheism : self-aggrandizing arrogance, ignorance of even the rudiments of philosophy or theology or history, and the inexorable recourse to censorship, professional destruction, and other totalitarian methods.


Projection much Herr Doctor Egnor???  Kudos to you JLT for risking teminal-stage vomiting to read the drivel at the DI's "Slanted Views" site.  BTW - I felt sorry for Egnor, so I fixed his sentence.

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Advocatus Diaboli



Posts: 197
Joined: Nov. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 01 2009,12:06   

Disco Institute added the Dembski & Marks paper to their ever escalating list of "Peer-Reviewed & Peer-Edited Scientific Publications Supporting the Theory of Intelligent Design."

Quote
William A. Dembski and Robert J. Marks II, "Conservation of Information in Search: Measuring the Cost of Success," IEEE Transactions on Systems, Man and Cybernetics A, Systems & Humans, Vol. 39 (5):1051-1061 (September, 2009). (PDF, 359KB)


Now the list has 41 items.

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I once thought that I made a mistake, but I was wrong.

"I freely admit I’m a sociopath" - DaveScot

"Most importanly, the facts are on the side of ID." - scordova

"UD is the greatest website of all time." stevestory

   
Richardthughes



Posts: 10110
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 01 2009,12:14   

Quote (Advocatus Diaboli @ Sep. 01 2009,12:06)
Disco Institute added the Dembski & Marks paper to their ever escalating list of "Peer-Reviewed & Peer-Edited Scientific Publications Supporting the Theory of Intelligent Design."

 
Quote
William A. Dembski and Robert J. Marks II, "Conservation of Information in Search: Measuring the Cost of Success," IEEE Transactions on Systems, Man and Cybernetics A, Systems & Humans, Vol. 39 (5):1051-1061 (September, 2009). (PDF, 359KB)


Now the list has 41 items.

"Peer-Edited"

Fnar.

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"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 01 2009,12:29   

they might as well include every single article ever published in Ecology, Evolution, PLoS, Nature, Science, Bioscience, Biogeography and the rest of all of them.  

right, jerry?

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Quack



Posts: 1754
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 01 2009,17:07   

Quote (Advocatus Diaboli @ Sep. 01 2009,12:06)
Disco Institute added the Dembski & Marks paper to their ever escalating list of "Peer-Reviewed & Peer-Edited Scientific Publications Supporting the Theory of Intelligent Design."

   
Quote
William A. Dembski and Robert J. Marks II, "Conservation of Information in Search: Measuring the Cost of Success," IEEE Transactions on Systems, Man and Cybernetics A, Systems & Humans, Vol. 39 (5):1051-1061 (September, 2009). (PDF, 359KB)


Now the list has 41 items.

Yadda yadda, but what is The Theory of Intelligent Design ??? I don't hear ya?

--------------
YEC creationists denigrate science without an inkling of what their lives would be without it. YEC creationism is an enrageous, abominable insult to the the human intellect.
                                                         Me.

  
JohnW



Posts: 2232
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 01 2009,17:55   

Quote (Quack @ Sep. 01 2009,15:07)
Yadda yadda, but what is The Theory of Intelligent Design ??? I don't hear ya?

Pre-Dover: An unknowable entity did unknowable things at unknowable times for unknowable reasons in an unknowable manner.  This is scientifically valid.

Post-Dover: Goddidit.  This is scientifically valid.

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Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it.
- Robert Byers

  
Quack



Posts: 1754
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 02 2009,02:13   

Quote (JohnW @ Sep. 01 2009,17:55)
   
Quote (Quack @ Sep. 01 2009,15:07)
Yadda yadda, but what is The Theory of Intelligent Design ??? I don't hear ya?

Pre-Dover: An unknowable entity did unknowable things at unknowable times for unknowable reasons in an unknowable manner.  This is scientifically valid.

Post-Dover: Goddidit.  This is scientifically valid.

Ah, now I see! It is like Behe has been saying all the time?

--------------
YEC creationists denigrate science without an inkling of what their lives would be without it. YEC creationism is an enrageous, abominable insult to the the human intellect.
                                                         Me.

  
Schroedinger's Dog



Posts: 1691
Joined: Jan. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 02 2009,05:37   

Quote (JohnW @ Sep. 02 2009,00:55)
Quote (Quack @ Sep. 01 2009,15:07)
Yadda yadda, but what is The Theory of Intelligent Design ??? I don't hear ya?

Pre-Dover: An unknowable entity did unknowable things at unknowable times for unknowable reasons in an unknowable manner.  This is scientifically valid.

Post-Dover: Goddidit.  This is scientifically valid.

Don't you mean:

Pre-Dover: Goddidit.  This is scientifically valid.

Post-Dover: An unknowable entity did unknowable things at unknowable times for unknowable reasons in an unknowable manner.  This is scientifically valid.

?

On the information level, it seems more in agreement with Dr Dr Dr's studies.

--------------
"Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G

"I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis

"The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

   
JohnW



Posts: 2232
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 02 2009,10:58   

Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Sep. 02 2009,03:37)
Quote (JohnW @ Sep. 02 2009,00:55)
Quote (Quack @ Sep. 01 2009,15:07)
Yadda yadda, but what is The Theory of Intelligent Design ??? I don't hear ya?

Pre-Dover: An unknowable entity did unknowable things at unknowable times for unknowable reasons in an unknowable manner.  This is scientifically valid.

Post-Dover: Goddidit.  This is scientifically valid.

Don't you mean:

Pre-Dover: Goddidit.  This is scientifically valid.

Post-Dover: An unknowable entity did unknowable things at unknowable times for unknowable reasons in an unknowable manner.  This is scientifically valid.

?

On the information level, it seems more in agreement with Dr Dr Dr's studies.

I disagree.  Pre-Dover, IDers were (unless they were behind closed doors) very careful not to identify the designer as Big G, to maximise the chances of getting it into the schools.

Post-Dover, there's zero chance of getting ID into the schools, it's all about selling crap to the gullible, and it's all Jesus, all the time.

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Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it.
- Robert Byers

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 10110
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 02 2009,11:15   

If we could count "God"s per 100 words at UD, the trend would be increasing. If we expanded it to apologetics in general, we'd find that is pretty much the zeitgeist these days.


No science so far!

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"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Dwimr



Posts: 1
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 03 2009,07:43   

This is my first time posting here. I have two questions.

1.Has Dembski ever publicly acknowledged whether he's a YEC or not? I noticed he can't stand theistic evolutionists. That brings me to question #2.

2.Isn't Behe Catholic and therefore a theistic evolutionist? Why doesn't Dembski ever criticize Behe?

  
Tracy P. Hamilton



Posts: 1237
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 03 2009,15:38   

Quote (Dwimr @ Sep. 03 2009,07:43)
This is my first time posting here. I have two questions.

1.Has Dembski ever publicly acknowledged whether he's a YEC or not? I noticed he can't stand theistic evolutionists. That brings me to question #2.

2.Isn't Behe Catholic and therefore a theistic evolutionist? Why doesn't Dembski ever criticize Behe?

Both Behe and Dembski are not YEC.  Not great thinkers either, putting out rationalizations of "Ohh, life is so complex, God must be necessary to make the changes."

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"Following what I just wrote about fitness, you’re taking refuge in what we see in the world."  PaV

"The simple equation F = MA leads to the concept of four-dimensional space." GilDodgen

"We have no brain, I don't, for thinking." Robert Byers

  
JLT



Posts: 740
Joined: Jan. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 03 2009,05:00   

Michael Egnor crows about a figure by ClimateAudit:

   
Quote
Real climate scientists are sifting out the details of the data to which CRU director and warmist Phil Jones applied fellow warmist Michael Mann's ‘Nature trick…to hide the decline…’.

The hidden data is that of Keith Briffa, a fellow climate scientist (and warmist) at East Anglia. Briffa compiled tree-ring data to obtain global temperature estimates back to 1400. But there was a problem with the tree-ring data, from the warmist perspective. The tree ring data showed pronounced cooling beginning in the mid-20th century. [...]
What to do?
Simple. Delete the tree rign data beginning in the mid-20th century, when the cooling became pronounced, and use (already CRU 'modified') ground station data more supportive of the warmist hypothesis in it's place.[...]
So here's "Mike's Nature trick...to hide the decline":
The warmists switched the source of the data at the end of the graph, just at the point where the data contradicted their hypothesis, and replaced it with manipulated different-source data that supported their hypothesis. They deleted the original contradictory data from the published report and from the public database. When pressed by years of Freedom of Information Act requests to release the original raw 'supportive' data, they finally admit that they threw it out and it can never be checked.


I found an explanation of the data in question here.

Apparently, what ClimateAudit shows is something called maximum latewood density. These data match the actually measured temperatures quite nicely up until the 1960 but fail to match up after that. Instead of hiding that fact, the scientists wrote an article about it*, where you can find this figure (figure 5 of the article shows the data from 1400 - 2000):


The maximum latewood densities that were deleted are hidden in the thick black line.



* Briffa et al. (1998). Trees tell of past climates: but are they speaking less clearly today? Phil. Trans. R. Soc. Lond. B 1998 353, 65-73 [pdf; free access (LOL)]

--------------
"Random mutations, if they are truly random, will affect, and potentially damage, any aspect of the organism, [...]
Thus, a realistic [computer] simulation [of evolution] would allow the program, OS, and hardware to be affected in a random fashion." GilDodgen, Frilly shirt owner

  
JLT



Posts: 740
Joined: Jan. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 03 2009,05:03   

BTW there's a good editorial in this week's Nature. The first couple of paragraphs:
 
Quote
The e-mail archives stolen last month from the Climatic Research Unit at the University of East Anglia (UEA), UK, have been greeted by the climate-change-denialist fringe as a propaganda windfall (see page 551). To these denialists, the scientists' scathing remarks about certain controversial palaeoclimate reconstructions qualify as the proverbial 'smoking gun': proof that mainstream climate researchers have systematically conspired to suppress evidence contradicting their doctrine that humans are warming the globe.

This paranoid interpretation would be laughable were it not for the fact that obstructionist politicians in the US Senate will probably use it next year as an excuse to stiffen their opposition to the country's much needed climate bill. Nothing in the e-mails undermines the scientific case that global warming is real — or that human activities are almost certainly the cause. That case is supported by multiple, robust lines of evidence, including several that are completely independent of the climate reconstructions debated in the e-mails.


ETA: Science does have something about it, too.
Quote
Four e-mail exchanges have received most of the media attention. The first regards a research finding considered by most scientists as a canonical fact: that the globe warmed by roughly 0.7°C in the 20th century. That fact derives in large part from global temperature data recorded by stations on land and sea, as analyzed independently by groups at East Anglia, NASA, and the U.S. National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration.

Referring to requests for climate data from critics, CRU Director Phil Jones wrote in 2005 that "I think I'll delete the file rather than send to anyone." In May 2009, Jones told Michael Mann of Pennsylvania State University, University Park, to "delete any emails" to a colleague about their work on the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) report and to ask a third colleague to do the same. (Mann says he conveyed the message but deleted no messages himself.) Through a spokesperson, Jones declined an interview request. But in a statement he said that "no record" has been deleted amid a bombardment of "Freedom of Information requests." CRU acknowledged in August that it deleted old data on digital tapes to make space for a move.

A second message relates to a chapter in the 2007 IPCC report that Jones edited. In 2004, he suggested that two recent papers on temperature trends didn't deserve to be published in a peer-reviewed journal. "I can't see either of these papers being in the next IPCC report," he wrote Mann. "Kevin [Trenberth] and I will keep them out somehow - even if we have to redefine what the peer-review literature is." But Trenberth, of the National Center for Atmospheric Research in Boulder, Colorado, says the papers were indeed considered. Thomas Karl, director of the National Climatic Data Center in Asheville, North Carolina, an official reviewer for the chapter, says the IPCC's peer-review procedures "were sacrosanct." Both papers wound up being cited.

A third message is viewed by critics as an acknowledgement that global warming has ceased. "The fact is that we can't account for the lack of warming at the moment and it is a travesty that we can't," wrote Trenberth in October. Contrarians have noted the lack of record new highs in global temperature since 1998 (Science, 2 October, p. 28). But Trenberth was actually bemoaning something else. "The observing system we have is inadequate for tracking energy flow through the climate system," he observed, affecting the forecasting of year-to-year climate changes.

A fourth message, about assembling a diagram for a 1999 World Meteorological Organization report, has been misinterpreted, says Trenberth (see graphic). Scientists believe proxy data such as tree rings are valuable for reconstructing past climates, but certain tree-ring data became unreliable midway through the century. So scientists used proxy data for all but the final 40 years of the millennium before switching to instrumental data in 1961. "Reasonable people," writes Stephen McIntyre, a retired industry consultant and prominent blogger, might conclude that the decision not to show the divergence of the two data sets was "simply a trick" to avoid giving fuel to skeptics.


--------------
"Random mutations, if they are truly random, will affect, and potentially damage, any aspect of the organism, [...]
Thus, a realistic [computer] simulation [of evolution] would allow the program, OS, and hardware to be affected in a random fashion." GilDodgen, Frilly shirt owner

  
RupertG



Posts: 80
Joined: Nov. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 06 2009,13:09   

Quote (J-Dog @ Aug. 10 2009,13:41)
     
Quote
ps: For a gift of $150 or more, we will send you a copy of Signature in the Cell.  You won't want to miss the book that Norman Nevi, one of Britain's leading genticists, is calling "a landmark in the intelligent design debate."


Norman who? I've never heard of the fellow, and neither has Google. I live in that Britain place (I like Marmite) and I can spell genneticyst, so if anyone should know...

R

--------------
Uncle Joe and Aunty Mabel
Fainted at the breakfast table
Children, let this be a warning
Never do it in the morning -- Ralph Vaughan Williams

  
fnxtr



Posts: 2117
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 06 2009,21:27   

That's a typo. Nevi called it a skidmark, not a landmark.

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"But it's disturbing to think someone actually thinks creationism -- having put it's hand on the hot stove every day for the last 400 years -- will get a different result tomorrow." -- midwifetoad

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4482
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 15 2010,04:52   

Rob Crowther, Again

Taking apart a short post from Rob Crowther demonstrates that a lot of explanation can be required to respond to even brief passages of BS.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Timothy McDougald



Posts: 1007
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 01 2010,19:11   

I was at work today and received a mass email from one of our clients announcing that he was no longer in the mortgage business as he was going to work for the Discovery Institute. Can't be the same Disco 'Tute we all no and laugh at I thought. Then I followed the link provided in the announcement and sure enough it was. So how does one go from working in the mortgage industry in Cleveland to working for the DI???

--------------
Church burning ebola boy

FTK: I Didn't answer your questions because it beats the hell out of me.

PaV: I suppose for me to be pried away from what I do to focus long and hard on that particular problem would take, quite honestly, hundreds of thousands of dollars to begin to pique my interest.

   
J-Dog



Posts: 4362
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 01 2010,19:35   

Quote (afarensis @ Mar. 01 2010,19:11)
So how does one go from working in the mortgage industry in Cleveland to working for the DI???

Aferensis - Dude, repeat after me:

"There's A Sucker Born Every Minute".

When your done fleecing souls for the Mortgage Industry, it's a natural switch to fleecing souls for The Jesus Industry The Designer Industry.

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Timothy McDougald



Posts: 1007
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 01 2010,20:18   

Quote (J-Dog @ Mar. 01 2010,19:35)
Quote (afarensis @ Mar. 01 2010,19:11)
So how does one go from working in the mortgage industry in Cleveland to working for the DI???

Aferensis - Dude, repeat after me:

"There's A Sucker Born Every Minute".

When your done fleecing souls for the Mortgage Industry, it's a natural switch to fleecing souls for The Jesus Industry The Designer Industry.

Apparently I was wrong about Cleveland- this is the guy - based on his profile I can see how he got there. Apparently he is bi, that is he fleeces for himself and for Jesus.

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Church burning ebola boy

FTK: I Didn't answer your questions because it beats the hell out of me.

PaV: I suppose for me to be pried away from what I do to focus long and hard on that particular problem would take, quite honestly, hundreds of thousands of dollars to begin to pique my interest.

   
Dr.GH



Posts: 1956
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 01 2010,23:40   

Quote (afarensis @ Mar. 01 2010,17:11)
I was at work today and received a mass email from one of our clients announcing that he was no longer in the mortgage business as he was going to work for the Discovery Institute. Can't be the same Disco 'Tute we all no and laugh at I thought. Then I followed the link provided in the announcement and sure enough it was. So how does one go from working in the mortgage industry in Cleveland to working for the DI???

Could you share with us the Email?

PLLeeeeazzzzzzzzzzzzzze!!!!!!

--------------
"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
Timothy McDougald



Posts: 1007
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 02 2010,19:05   

Quote (Dr.GH @ Mar. 01 2010,23:40)
Quote (afarensis @ Mar. 01 2010,17:11)
I was at work today and received a mass email from one of our clients announcing that he was no longer in the mortgage business as he was going to work for the Discovery Institute. Can't be the same Disco 'Tute we all no and laugh at I thought. Then I followed the link provided in the announcement and sure enough it was. So how does one go from working in the mortgage industry in Cleveland to working for the DI???

Could you share with us the Email?

PLLeeeeazzzzzzzzzzzzzze!!!!!!

No, unfortunately it was a work email and they have some serious security rules.

--------------
Church burning ebola boy

FTK: I Didn't answer your questions because it beats the hell out of me.

PaV: I suppose for me to be pried away from what I do to focus long and hard on that particular problem would take, quite honestly, hundreds of thousands of dollars to begin to pique my interest.

   
sledgehammer



Posts: 531
Joined: Sep. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 04 2010,10:23   

From the NYT on the politics of linking AGW to EvoDenial:
Quote
The linkage of evolution and global warming is partly a legal strategy: courts have found that singling out evolution for criticism in public schools is a violation of the separation of church and state. By insisting that global warming also be debated, deniers of evolution can argue that they are simply championing academic freedom in general.

Quote
John G. West, a senior fellow with the Discovery Institute in Seattle, a group that advocates intelligent design and has led the campaign for teaching critiques of evolution in the schools, said that the institute was not specifically promoting opposition to accepted science on climate change. Still, Mr. West said, he is sympathetic to that cause.
“There is a lot of similar dogmatism on this issue,” he said, “with scientists being persecuted for findings that are not in keeping with the orthodoxy. We think analyzing and evaluating scientific evidence is a good thing, whether that is about global warming or evolution.”

Larry Krause weighs in:
Quote
“Wherever there is a battle over evolution now,” he said, “there is a secondary battle to diminish other hot-button issues like Big Bang and, increasingly, climate change. It is all about casting doubt on the veracity of science — to say it is just one view of the world, just another story, no better or more valid than fundamentalism.”

and the NCSE:
Quote
After that, said Joshua Rosenau, a project director for the National Center for Science Education, he began noticing that attacks on climate change science were being packaged with criticism of evolution in curriculum initiatives.
He fears that even a few state-level victories could have an effect on what gets taught across the nation.


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The majority of the stupid is invincible and guaranteed for all time. The terror of their tyranny is alleviated by their lack of consistency. -A. Einstein  (H/T, JAD)
If evolution is true, you could not know that it's true because your brain is nothing but chemicals. ?Think about that. -K. Hovind

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4482
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: June 02 2010,18:51   

DI bleating self-denial.

Go ahead, DI; admit that you have a creation science problem. It's the first step toward recovery...

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Kristine



Posts: 3037
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 02 2010,19:43   

Quote (afarensis @ Mar. 01 2010,19:11)
I was at work today and received a mass email from one of our clients announcing that he was no longer in the mortgage business as he was going to work for the Discovery Institute. Can't be the same Disco 'Tute we all no and laugh at I thought. Then I followed the link provided in the announcement and sure enough it was. So how does one go from working in the mortgage industry in Cleveland to working for the DI???

Maybe the DI is in danger of having its P.O. box foreclosed on? :p

--------------
Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
Henry J



Posts: 4058
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 03 2010,12:34   

Without a P.O. Box, would they become the Disgruntled Institute?

  
Steviepinhead



Posts: 532
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 03 2010,13:46   

Quote (Henry J @ June 03 2010,10:34)
Without a P.O. Box, would they become the Disgruntled Institute?

Mmm.  If the 'x' mutated to the 'y,' then they'd at least have a PO Boy sandwich, which ought to give them something to chew on in their disgruntlement...

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4362
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 03 2010,14:24   

Quote (Steviepinhead @ June 03 2010,13:46)
Quote (Henry J @ June 03 2010,10:34)
Without a P.O. Box, would they become the Disgruntled Institute?

Mmm.  If the 'x' mutated to the 'y,' then they'd at least have a PO Boy sandwich, which ought to give them something to chew on in their disgruntlement...

BUT...

Since ID is all about magic, it's much easier, and I think appropriate, to use alchemy and transform the P to Fe, and the O to C and La, thus leaving the DI with a nice Fecal(a) Sandwich... "which ought to really give them something to chew on in their disgruntlement...

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Henry J



Posts: 4058
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 03 2010,14:40   

Or, maybe they could use the Fe to iron out their problems?

  
Occam's Aftershave



Posts: 1480
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 03 2010,15:08   

Quote (Henry J @ June 03 2010,14:40)
Or, maybe they could use the Fe to iron out their problems?

Ya know, you don't have to repeat some old, tired, and decidedly unfunny pun every time someone posts.

Just sayin'.

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JoeG: And by eating the cake you are consuming the information- some stays with you and the rest is waste.

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3324
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 03 2010,15:24   

Quote (Occam's Aftershave @ June 03 2010,15:08)
Quote (Henry J @ June 03 2010,14:40)
Or, maybe they could use the Fe to iron out their problems?

Ya know, you don't have to repeat some old, tired, and decidedly unfunny pun every time someone posts.

Just sayin'.

Fluorine Ununhexium Potassium Uranium.

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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Henry J



Posts: 4058
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 03 2010,22:16   

Ununhexium? What's element 116 got to do with it?

Henry

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1005
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: June 06 2010,11:47   

Appropriate for D-Day, Steve Matheson has dropped Da Bomb on Stevie Meyer and the Disco Tute.

Steve's Blog

Nothing that hasn't been said before in one forum or another, but he kicked the ant hill pretty hard.

Fun and games to follow, no doubt!

  
Hermagoras



Posts: 1260
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: June 06 2010,21:01   

Quote (Doc Bill @ June 06 2010,11:47)
Appropriate for D-Day, Steve Matheson has dropped Da Bomb on Stevie Meyer and the Disco Tute.

Steve's Blog

Nothing that hasn't been said before in one forum or another, but he kicked the ant hill pretty hard.

Fun and games to follow, no doubt!

Wow, that's nice.  The whole thing should be shared widely, but point 3 is especially delicious:  
Quote
3. Your Discovery Institute is a horrific mistake, an epic intellectual tragedy that is degrading the minds of those who consume its products and bringing dishonor to you and to the church. It is for good reason that Casey Luskin is held in such extreme contempt by your movement's critics, and there's something truly sick about the pattern of attacks that your operatives launched in the weeks after the Biola event.  It's clear that you have a cadre of attack dogs that do this work for you, and some of them seem unconstrained by standards of integrity. I can't state this strongly enough: the Discovery Institute is a dangerous cancer on the Christian intellect, both because of its unyielding commitment to dishonesty and because of its creepy mission to undermine science itself.  I'd like to see you do better, but I have no such hope for your institute. It needs to be destroyed, and I will do what I can to bring that about.

Emphasis added.  
I like this guy.

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"I am not currently proving that objective morality is true. I did that a long time ago and you missed it." -- StephenB

http://paralepsis.blogspot.com/....pot.com

   
Quack



Posts: 1754
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: June 07 2010,03:25   

Awesome! His writing skills are superb; he is crystal clear and a joy to read. I believe he even knows what he's talking about.
Too many people don't.

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YEC creationists denigrate science without an inkling of what their lives would be without it. YEC creationism is an enrageous, abominable insult to the the human intellect.
                                                         Me.

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4362
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 07 2010,08:14   

Quote (Quack @ June 07 2010,03:25)
Awesome! His writing skills are superb; he is crystal clear and a joy to read. I believe he even knows what he's talking about.
Too many people don't.

Like any / all at the Discovery Institute!

emphasis added

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1005
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: June 09 2010,21:48   

Over at the Dishonesty Institutes "website" our intrepid Luskin wannabe, Anika "The Tank" Smith writes an article for Dr. Dougie Axe, who, apparently can't write for himself, defending Axe's "work."

Damn, it's hard writing about the Dishonesty Institute because you have to put so many words in quotes!  Otherwise you'd think they have a real website and did real work.

Hey, Axe, you moron, how's it feel having your "research" written up by The Tank?  Whazzamatta, weasel got your tongue???

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1005
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: June 09 2010,22:16   

Oh, my bad, a thousand apologies!  

I misrepresented, misconstrued and conflated DOCTOR Douglas Axe's "argument" with some sort of fiction reported by Anika "The Tank" Smith.

My bad.

Actually, Axe responded at the non-peer reviewed, closed, creationist propaganda website from the BioIlogic institute who's URL I seem to have lost.

Anyway, Axe responds from the echo chamber up there in Seattle something like he has a PC running Windows 3.1 and it crashed and therefore Darwin screwed nutria, or something like that.

I can't figure it out even though I have 4 PhD's for which I paid a pretty penny.

(Actually, I paid for 3 and the other I stole from Louis.)

  
Bob O'H



Posts: 1969
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 10 2010,01:55   

There used to be a Biologic Institute thread, but I can't find it. Anyway, here's the lost link. Axe declares Matheson wrong, because of a calculation based on a 747-in-junkyard model. Even wMad isn't that dumb any more.

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ID theorists don’t postulate a designer for their arguments. - Crandaddy
There is no connection between a peppered moth, natural selection, and religion that I can see. - FtK

   
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 10 2010,05:52   

Quote (Doc Bill @ June 10 2010,04:16)
[SNIP]

(Actually, I paid for 3 and the other I stole from Louis.)

Damn! I wondered where that had gone. Which one did you steal, was it the PhD in Beeronomics from the Institute of Applied Drunkenness or the PhD in Truthiness from the Department of Creationist Emulation?

Louis

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Bye.

  
sledgehammer



Posts: 531
Joined: Sep. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: June 10 2010,11:21   

Quote (Bob O'H @ June 09 2010,23:55)
There used to be a Biologic Institute thread, but I can't find it. Anyway, here's the lost link. Axe declares Matheson wrong, because of a calculation based on a 747-in-junkyard model. Even wMad isn't that dumb any more.

It's telling that in his response, Axe correctly restates Matheson's criitique (that probability based on the size of the sequence space is irrelevant in a nested hierarchy), but doesn't even address that issue.  Instead, he throws out the usual "Gee, Look! BigNumber!" probability argument.
 Now Axe is not stupid, and I know that he knows very well what Matheson's argument implies, so I can only conclude that he knows or suspects that Matheson's argument is correct, he has no rebuttal, and is being purposely deceitful.
This is the same kind of intellectual dishonesty that Durston and Abel demonstrate whenever the subject of protein sequence space in an evolutionary context comes up.

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The majority of the stupid is invincible and guaranteed for all time. The terror of their tyranny is alleviated by their lack of consistency. -A. Einstein  (H/T, JAD)
If evolution is true, you could not know that it's true because your brain is nothing but chemicals. ?Think about that. -K. Hovind

  
fnxtr



Posts: 2117
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 10 2010,12:29   

Quote (Louis @ June 10 2010,03:52)
Quote (Doc Bill @ June 10 2010,04:16)
[SNIP]

(Actually, I paid for 3 and the other I stole from Louis.)

Damn! I wondered where that had gone. Which one did you steal, was it the PhD in Beeronomics from the Institute of Applied Drunkenness or the PhD in Truthiness from the Department of Creationist Emulation?

Louis

Maybe he meant that out of the pretty penny he paid for 4 Fuds, he paid for 3 himself.

He owes you a farthing.

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"But it's disturbing to think someone actually thinks creationism -- having put it's hand on the hot stove every day for the last 400 years -- will get a different result tomorrow." -- midwifetoad

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 12 2010,08:35   

A poster on pharyngula notes the Disco tute's 990 forms are also available.

http://dynamodata.fdncenter.org/990_pdf....990.pdf

Some sick amounts of money being paid out to Meyer etc.

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I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
keiths



Posts: 2041
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 12 2010,10:57   

Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ June 12 2010,06:35)
A poster on pharyngula notes the Disco tute's 990 forms are also available.

http://dynamodata.fdncenter.org/990_pdf....990.pdf

Some sick amounts of money being paid out to Meyer etc.

Lying for Jesus is hard work.  He deserves every penny of that $140,000.

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And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number.  -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
sledgehammer



Posts: 531
Joined: Sep. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: June 12 2010,11:09   

Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ June 12 2010,06:35)
A poster on pharyngula notes the Disco tute's 990 forms are also available.

http://dynamodata.fdncenter.org/990_pdf....990.pdf

Some sick amounts of money being paid out to Meyer etc.



Meyer proposes his own salary, board approves. Sweet deal.

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The majority of the stupid is invincible and guaranteed for all time. The terror of their tyranny is alleviated by their lack of consistency. -A. Einstein  (H/T, JAD)
If evolution is true, you could not know that it's true because your brain is nothing but chemicals. ?Think about that. -K. Hovind

  
khan



Posts: 1482
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: June 12 2010,11:14   

Quote (sledgehammer @ June 12 2010,12:09)
Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ June 12 2010,06:35)
A poster on pharyngula notes the Disco tute's 990 forms are also available.

http://dynamodata.fdncenter.org/990_pdf....990.pdf

Some sick amounts of money being paid out to Meyer etc.



Meyer proposes his own salary, board approves. Sweet deal.

Why can't I arrange that?

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"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

  
keiths



Posts: 2041
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 12 2010,13:42   

Quote (sledgehammer @ June 12 2010,09:09)
Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ June 12 2010,06:35)
A poster on pharyngula notes the Disco tute's 990 forms are also available.

http://dynamodata.fdncenter.org/990_pdf....990.pdf

Some sick amounts of money being paid out to Meyer etc.



Meyer proposes his own salary, board approves. Sweet deal.

Actually, Bruce Chapman is the president.  Meyer is the director of the Center for Science and Culture.

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And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number.  -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4482
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: June 12 2010,14:01   

The DI folks cycle through "we're spending loads on research" and "we get pittances of money". I took a look at one of the pittance-class claims some years ago.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
JLT



Posts: 740
Joined: Jan. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: June 30 2010,03:03   

Who is the DI's new attack gerbil, Jonathan McLatchie? Another lawyer?
He manages right from the start to match Luskin's dishonesty and/or cluelessness which is not an easy feat.

Every year or so Luskin resurrects the "Haeckel was a fraud and his painting is still printed in our textbooks" canard. The last time he did it, he got told by Nick Matzke and Matt Young at PT and by Josh Rosenau.

Now Latchie reacts to Nick's and Young's post, starting with a quote:

Quote
According to Nick Matzke:
Quote
Haeckel didn't ignore the differences in embryos in the earliest period just after fertilization (differences which are visually significant but mostly fairly trivial, due to the different amounts of yolk in different vertebrate eggs).

Apparently Matzke missed some of the authorities cited by Luskin, which contradict Matzke's claims. All the necessary refutations of Matzke can be found in Luskin's original posts: [my emphasis]

He then goes on to quote what Gould, Richardson, etc., said about Haeckel's drawings of the pharyngeal stage. But that's not at all what Nick was talking about. He was talking about gastrulation which is a much earlier stage. This is obvious if you know embryonic development, but even if you don't you could just follow the link given in the same sentence by Nick Matzke:
Quote
First, Haeckel didn’t ignore the differences in embryos in the earliest period just after fertilization (differences which are visually significant but mostly fairly trivial, due to the different amounts of yolk in different vertebrate eggs) – in fact, Haeckel himself prominently diagrammed them, as I showed here back in 2006. Whoops!

Whoops, indeed. Gastrulation is followed by a neurula stage and only after that comes the pharyngeal stage.

Latchie's presentation of Matt Young's post is equally dishonest.

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"Random mutations, if they are truly random, will affect, and potentially damage, any aspect of the organism, [...]
Thus, a realistic [computer] simulation [of evolution] would allow the program, OS, and hardware to be affected in a random fashion." GilDodgen, Frilly shirt owner

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1005
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: June 30 2010,08:18   

McLatch is, apparently, a respected scientist in the UK.

Here's his profile.

Probably has degrees in mathematics, history, philosophy, physics, chemistry, cooking and cosmotology, soon to be a Senior Jolly Old Fellow at the Disco Tute.

Works out of the Luskin Institute for Higher Learning Tyre Care and Massage Salon, Ltd., UK branch, Lower Uppington, Wilts, BR 549.

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 3556
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: June 30 2010,09:20   

I now have to reformat my brain.

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”let’s not make a joke of ourselves.”

Pat Robertson

  
fnxtr



Posts: 2117
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 30 2010,10:56   

Quote (Doc Bill @ June 30 2010,06:18)
BR 549.

Nice touch.

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"But it's disturbing to think someone actually thinks creationism -- having put it's hand on the hot stove every day for the last 400 years -- will get a different result tomorrow." -- midwifetoad

  
JLT



Posts: 740
Joined: Jan. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: June 30 2010,11:49   

Quote (Doc Bill @ June 30 2010,14:18)
McLatch is, apparently, a respected scientist in the UK.

Here's his profile.

Probably has degrees in mathematics, history, philosophy, physics, chemistry, cooking and cosmotology, soon to be a Senior Jolly Old Fellow at the Disco Tute.

Works out of the Luskin Institute for Higher Learning Tyre Care and Massage Salon, Ltd., UK branch, Lower Uppington, Wilts, BR 549.

I don't know whether that's the new DI guy or not, but he sure could be one. 21 and already completely messed up.

Oh no, he's StephenB's clone!
 
Quote
In order to reason coherently we use the laws of logic. But why do the laws of logic hold? There has to be an ultimate standard of absolute logic which we are to pattern our reasoning after. The laws of logic are essentially a reflection of the mind of God. The laws of non-contradiction, for instance, is hardly a subjective entity. [...]
Outside a Biblical framework, the atheist has no reason for assuming that his reasoning is absolute. In fact he must use his reasoning to derive that his reasoning is absolute, which is of course a circular argument. Therefore, the evolutionist must in fact ‘borrow’ from the very worldview he is trying to discredit, and so his argument absolutely breaks down. It is a bit like trying to argue against the existence of the All-About-God network on the All-About-God forums. In order for his reasoning to be coherent, it has to be false. Therefore, to assert that there is no God is self-refuting.


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"Random mutations, if they are truly random, will affect, and potentially damage, any aspect of the organism, [...]
Thus, a realistic [computer] simulation [of evolution] would allow the program, OS, and hardware to be affected in a random fashion." GilDodgen, Frilly shirt owner

  
Glen Davidson



Posts: 752
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2010,03:15   

There's a highly dishonest (perhaps too prejudiced and stupid to know what honesty is, but whatever) piece of slime on the Biologos forum who goes by the name of Rich, whose passive-aggressive nastiness is apparently allowed, while calling him on his constant dishonesty about others is not approved.  If he's allowed to prevent honest discussion too greatly, and for much longer, well, I'll be among those opposed to Biologos.

Like all such "polite" bullies, he ignores any evidence for evolution that isn't approved by the IDiots, that is, every genetic step of the evolution of a complex organ (or some such thing) has to be given, at least for a hypothetical evolutionary scenario.  As a worshipper of Denton (we have to read him, he won't read anything at Pharyngula, Panda's Thumb, or Talkorigins--just to show how dishonest he is), he made me curious, so I checked out Denton's "Evolution:  A Theory in Crisis," although his disciple Behe certainly gave me no reason to think Denton had anything intelligent to say.

I didn't find anything very intelligent in the bits I have thus far scanned.

But I was surprised to quickly find the inversion of truth in a Denton analogy that seems to be behind ID, Rich, and the whole DI's (hence the thread I chose--Denton having once been a fellow of the DI, and certainly influential on most still there) moronic insistence that we have to provide all of the steps in evolution if we're to at all adequately demonstrate that it occurred -- without teh miracle.  I don't suppose this is unknown, but I'd never heard of it, and I'm sure that many haven't.

 
So here's a somewhat modified excerpt of something I wrote in another context (and yes, it involved Rich and his nastiness/stupidity/dishonesty):
   
Quote
Rich is enamored with Denton, and Denton included in "Evolution:  a theory in crisis" a very misleading, although not obviously deliberately dishonest, analogy with the evolution of languages, one that is actually completely opposite from the truth of the importance and necessity of understanding that evolution occurred prior to understanding all of the steps involved (which may never happen with much life, for the obvious reasons involving lost information).  Anyhow, here is the telling paragraph:

   
Quote
All the major Germanic languages of Europe, for example, including English, Dutch, German, and Icelandic, were already well differentiated and distinct and unlinked by transitional dialects when they first appeared in written form.  Yet, despite the absence of intermediates, no linguist today doubts that all the Germanic languages descended gradually over a period of three thousand years from an ancestral proto-Germanic tongue.  This is because they have been able to work out in very exact detail all the semantic, syntactic and phonetic changes which occurred along all the hypothetical pathways through which the languages evolved.  The reconstruction has been taken to such an extent that the entire lexicon, grammar, and even the sound of these extinct and long dead languages can be specified at every point along all the various lineages leading back in time to the proto-Germanic source.

Michael Denton  Evolution:  A Theory in Crisis.  p. 199.



One can quibble in various ways about that paragraph, as he's almost certainly exaggerating how much we know about every single aspect of extinct Germanic languages, and most definitely is wrong that we know the "sound" of the extinct languages (we no doubt know something about the sounds, but to baldly state "and even the sound of these extinct and long dead languages can be specified at every point along all the various lineages leading back in time to the proto-Germanic source," can hardly be true).

And Germanic languages are hardly the only ones we know evolved from a common source, and certainly less is known about the original Indo-European language (many roots are fairly certain, it is believed), so clearly Denton cherry-picked his "example."

But those errors pale against the fact that virtually all linguists were -- and had to be in order to work out the specifics -- certain that the Germanic languages, and indeed all of the Indo-European languages, were related well before the specifics were worked out.  They weren't convinced that the languages had evolved from common ancestors because all of the details were known, the details were able to be worked out because linguists were certain that the languages had evolved, and they operated very successfully within that framework to ferret out the details.


OK, I don't know if this is really the source of this major inability of IDiots to understand science, but it has to be a good candidate for it.  The ignorant and the stupid, like Rich (and Behe, or is he less naive and also less dumbly honest?), believe that language evolution is known only because all of the steps of such transitions are known (according to Denton's hyperbole), and so clearly biological evolution needs to have the same (fictional) details behind it if anyone is to believe it.

How anybody can be dull enough to think that every last bit of language evolution was known before linguists generally believed in language evolution is not easy to explain.  Yet it seems to be dumb enough for the IDCreationists to believe (or at least cling to in order to avoid learning what they don't want to know), since they are amazingly impervious to the sorts of knowledge that really did convince linguists that linguistic evolutionary theory was correct, so that further information could and would be discovered about that evolution.

I cringe to think of how much damage such a colossally stupid (although prejudice was probably the main source of the stupid) inversion has, likely, been able to cause.

Glen Davidson

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http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p....p

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of coincidence---ID philosophy

   
Quack



Posts: 1754
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2010,05:21   

All IDiots are hereby invited to come to Norway and study the evolution of languages. Richard Fortey in "Life, an Unauthorized Biography" even used the dialects evolved over hundreds of years in the many more or less isolated communities along the Norwegian Atlantic coastline, broken with fjords of length up to 200 kilometers, as an example.

One of the dialects has even been elevated to the status of a language on its own: nynorsk (New-Norwegian). NRK, the national  broadcasting company is required to use a minimum of 25% nynorsk.

It is estimated that less than 10% of the population are regular users of nynorsk.

All laws are written in nynorsk and are not even translated into our main language, "riksmĺl". I don't know if they are translated into foreign languages.

The 'problem' probably is a result of national-romantic sentiments associated with getting our own constitution (while still in union with Sweden) in 1814. We celebrate the date, 17th of May with lots of pomp and circumstance.

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YEC creationists denigrate science without an inkling of what their lives would be without it. YEC creationism is an enrageous, abominable insult to the the human intellect.
                                                         Me.

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 3556
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2010,08:10   

Denton is an apostate. IDiots tend to ignore the fact that after "Theory in Crisis" he wrote "Nature's destiny," which pretty much accepts all of mainstream science. He falls back on the anthropic principle, but at least he doesn't wallow in magical designers intervening in the history of life.

American and British law tend to incorporate a bit of Latin.

For approximately the same reason that J.K. Rowling incorporated bits of Latin in Harry Potter.

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”let’s not make a joke of ourselves.”

Pat Robertson

  
Texas Teach



Posts: 1020
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2010,10:54   

Quote (Quack @ July 01 2010,05:21)
The 'problem' probably is a result of national-romantic sentiments associated with getting our own constitution (while still in union with Sweden) in 1814. We celebrate the date, 17th of May with lots of pomp and circumstance.

But do you blow things up?  It's very important to blow things up.  Secondary fires are a bonus.  If you want to make it classy, you can add musical accompaniment.

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"Creationists think everything Genesis says is true. I don't even think Phil Collins is a good drummer." --J. Carr

  
dvunkannon



Posts: 1377
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2010,12:37   

Quote (Glen Davidson @ July 01 2010,04:15)
There's a highly dishonest (perhaps too prejudiced and stupid to know what honesty is, but whatever) piece of slime on the Biologos forum who goes by the name of Rich, whose passive-aggressive nastiness is apparently allowed, while calling him on his constant dishonesty about others is not approved.  If he's allowed to prevent honest discussion too greatly, and for much longer, well, I'll be among those opposed to Biologos.

Like all such "polite" bullies, he ignores any evidence for evolution that isn't approved by the IDiots, that is, every genetic step of the evolution of a complex organ (or some such thing) has to be given, at least for a hypothetical evolutionary scenario.  As a worshipper of Denton (we have to read him, he won't read anything at Pharyngula, Panda's Thumb, or Talkorigins--just to show how dishonest he is), he made me curious, so I checked out Denton's "Evolution:  A Theory in Crisis," although his disciple Behe certainly gave me no reason to think Denton had anything intelligent to say.

<ip-snay/>

Passive-agressive bully that worships Denton? Does he throw in a bit of Sermonti and Wells? Ya see, IOW, it could be our favorite, Keene-ly perceptive crypto-Muslim, Joe G!

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I’m referring to evolution, not changes in allele frequencies. - Cornelius Hunter
I’m not an evolutionist, I’m a change in allele frequentist! - Nakashima

  
olegt



Posts: 1387
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2010,14:38   

Casey opens mouth, inserts foot:
 
Quote
Intelligent Design Proponents Toil More than the Critics: A Response to Wesley Elsberry and Jeffrey Shallit

Elsberry and Shallit charged that “intelligent design advocates have produced many popular books, but essentially no scientific research.” It’s doubtful that charge was accurate when they first posted their article, but no serious critic could make that charge in 2010.

That link in Casey's post goes to the new, shiny, ID-friendly journal BIO-Complexity.  Which has so far published two articles, one of which is a critical review, so that leaves just one research article in the first half of 2010.  And were there any in 2009?  Can't recall.

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If you are not:
Galapagos Finch
please Logout »

  
Quack



Posts: 1754
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2010,14:54   

Quote (Texas Teach @ July 01 2010,10:54)
Quote (Quack @ July 01 2010,05:21)
The 'problem' probably is a result of national-romantic sentiments associated with getting our own constitution (while still in union with Sweden) in 1814. We celebrate the date, 17th of May with lots of pomp and circumstance.

But do you blow things up?  It's very important to blow things up.  Secondary fires are a bonus.  If you want to make it classy, you can add musical accompaniment.

I am afraid we're a little backward in that respect; except I've read about a tradition of young people very early May 17th blasting dynamite or whatever they could lay hands on.

Otherwise I am afraid we are a peaceful people. At least we used to be; modern times are making themselves noticeable here too.

But I did my best to blow up an air raid shelter on new year's eve 1945/46 though...

--------------
YEC creationists denigrate science without an inkling of what their lives would be without it. YEC creationism is an enrageous, abominable insult to the the human intellect.
                                                         Me.

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1005
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2010,18:35   

The DI will be squawking about this in a few days, after they find someone to read it to them.

New Fossilzs in teh Pre-Pre-Pre-Cambrian.

Just like EVERY discovery, the DI will pooh-pooh it having pooed their pants.  Oh, noez, teh fozzilz!

The DI morons are more predictable than the MET!

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4482
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2010,20:09   

If anyone would like a mention in the blog post I'm writing up in response to Casey, just have a go at finding his various problems in reading comprehension in his "response".

Example: he criticizes us for "misapplying" Dembski's design
inference in our discussion of pulsars, when our point there was that the scientific community has considered design inferences -- as competing hypotheses -- and without Dembski's framework to help them.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4482
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2010,22:22   

Sheesh... there's over 7,500 words in that log of Luskin's.

He may be paid to do that by the word. He's certainly paid to push out the drivel. Nobody is paying me to write a response. I think I've pointed out this strategy of antievolutionists before, the argument from persistent logorrhea.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Doc Bill



Posts: 1005
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 09 2010,10:55   

Robert Palpatine Crowther crows over a video of creationist Stephen Meyer answering the question "Is intelligent design creationism ™  science?"

Sort of like asking Kent Hovind "Is tax evasion legal?"

Or asking Casey Luskin "Does plucking a unibrow make you look less like a Bulgarian farm wife?"  (apologies to BFW's)

It's difficult to watch the video of little Stevie; so much whine and cheese.

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4362
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 09 2010,16:56   

I miss Dembski running UD.

Well, actually I miss Dembski running UD only because we don't get the Friday Meltdowns like we used to.  :(

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1005
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 09 2010,17:52   

To add injury to insult, in Little Stevie's Video, the soundtrack is like a Vince Guaraldi piano riff.

Do you think Stevie is channeling Charlie Brown?

"Nobody likes me, Snoopy.  I'm just a big loser.  At least you're my friend, Snoopy, a loyal dog.  Right, Snoopy?"

(looks around and sees Snoopy getting hired by the Venter Institute.)

*sigh*

  
olegt



Posts: 1387
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 15 2010,15:44   

DI will be giving away an iPod to one of the people who sign on to their mailing list.  We should all participate.  With the total number of their email subscribers approaching 10, the odds are good.  

Don't be too creative with your name.  They are supposed to announce the winner.

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If you are not:
Galapagos Finch
please Logout »

  
dheddle



Posts: 530
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 15 2010,15:57   

Quote (olegt @ July 15 2010,15:44)
DI will be giving away an iPod to one of the people who sign on to their mailing list.  We should all participate.  With the total number of their email subscribers approaching 10, the odds are good.  

Don't be too creative with your name.  They are supposed to announce the winner.

So "Galapagos Finch" is probably out of the question?

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Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
olegt



Posts: 1387
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 15 2010,16:35   

Quote (dheddle @ July 15 2010,15:57)
Quote (olegt @ July 15 2010,15:44)
DI will be giving away an iPod to one of the people who sign on to their mailing list.  We should all participate.  With the total number of their email subscribers approaching 10, the odds are good.  

Don't be too creative with your name.  They are supposed to announce the winner.

So "Galapagos Finch" is probably out of the question?

Don't even think about that, Heddle.  He's mine.

--------------
If you are not:
Galapagos Finch
please Logout »

  
dheddle



Posts: 530
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 15 2010,16:43   

Quote (olegt @ July 15 2010,16:35)
Quote (dheddle @ July 15 2010,15:57)
Quote (olegt @ July 15 2010,15:44)
DI will be giving away an iPod to one of the people who sign on to their mailing list.  We should all participate.  With the total number of their email subscribers approaching 10, the odds are good.  

Don't be too creative with your name.  They are supposed to announce the winner.

So "Galapagos Finch" is probably out of the question?

Don't even think about that, Heddle.  He's mine.

I'm going to use a french sounding name: Âne Vert. Or maybe Fesses Vertes.

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Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
Richardthughes



Posts: 10110
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 15 2010,16:44   

Quote (olegt @ July 15 2010,16:35)
Quote (dheddle @ July 15 2010,15:57)
Quote (olegt @ July 15 2010,15:44)
DI will be giving away an iPod to one of the people who sign on to their mailing list.  We should all participate.  With the total number of their email subscribers approaching 10, the odds are good.  

Don't be too creative with your name.  They are supposed to announce the winner.

So "Galapagos Finch" is probably out of the question?

Don't even think about that, Heddle.  He's mine.

Meeeeoooooowww!



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"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4362
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 15 2010,20:34   

Maybe it's time for Hugh Jass to get resurrected.

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4362
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 25 2010,20:05   

I just got my new Discovery Institute Begging For Dollars Letter, and they base this quarter's pleading on the JPL Douchbag David Coppedge's casey Luskin filed lawsuit.

Lots of lies and laughs as you might expect.  It's just "Expelled - The 2010 Edition".   Highlights of the expensive four-color mailing include: Privaleged Planet, Darwanists, Coppedge illegally harassed, yada, yada, yada.

My recomendation is that more ATBC posters should sign up to be money wasters for the DI ASAP.  

Do yourself and science a favor and swell the list of the DI's mailing list!

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
JAM



Posts: 503
Joined: July 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 27 2010,02:01   

Quote (Glen Davidson @ July 01 2010,02:15)
There's a highly dishonest (perhaps too prejudiced and stupid to know what honesty is, but whatever) piece of slime on the Biologos forum who goes by the name of Rich, ...

Is that Rich Deem?

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4482
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 12 2010,07:08   

David Klinghoffer Gets an Education

Lauri Lebo provides the tutelage.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
J-Dog



Posts: 4362
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 12 2010,08:09   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Aug. 12 2010,07:08)
David Klinghoffer Gets an Education

Lauri Lebo provides the tutelage total spanking pwnage .


Excellent write up by Lauri, Wes.  Thanks for posting, and for you "onlookers" out there, the link Wes points to is an outstanding summary of the how and why ID is creationism and the how and why of the Discovery Institute's illegal shenanagins and attempts to get their brand of religion taught in science class.

Wes - BTW - Fixed That For You!

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
JLT



Posts: 740
Joined: Jan. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2010,09:01   

The Disco'tute made a little video promoting their totally scientific book "God and evolution". And they're allowing comments at YouTube! There even is a complete moron active in the comments section with this killer argument:
Quote
I? did NOT ask for articles about evolution. I want to know WHO, WHERE and WHEN was the hypothesis of evolution tested. I want to know the probability.

Delicious!

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"Random mutations, if they are truly random, will affect, and potentially damage, any aspect of the organism, [...]
Thus, a realistic [computer] simulation [of evolution] would allow the program, OS, and hardware to be affected in a random fashion." GilDodgen, Frilly shirt owner

  
JAM



Posts: 503
Joined: July 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 20 2010,19:13   

Quote (Glen Davidson @ July 01 2010,02:15)
There's a highly dishonest (perhaps too prejudiced and stupid to know what honesty is, but whatever) piece of slime on the Biologos forum who goes by the name of Rich, whose passive-aggressive nastiness is apparently allowed, while calling him on his constant dishonesty about others is not approved.

Rich is having another meltdown…

http://tinyurl.com/33lmgl3

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 10110
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 21 2010,14:50   

Where's the islam?

http://www.evolutionnews.org/2010....71.html

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"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
JLT



Posts: 740
Joined: Jan. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 07 2010,08:00   

Meet Pakicetus, the Terrestrial Mammal BioLogos Calls a "Whale"
   
Quote
But these aren't the only marine mistakes on the page. BioLogos says regarding the evolution of whales:
       
Quote
Recently, a 52-million-year-old whale fossil, Pakicetus, was found in Pakistan. It was clearly a small, wolf-sized whale, but it did not have the characteristic fat-pad, a structure that allows the whale's jaw vibrations to be used for hearing. Also, its teeth were much like those of the terrestrial animals already thought to be related to whales.

Aside from the fact that Pakicetus was discovered in 1983, there's quite a bit more that should be said about this fossil. The claim that Pakicetus is a whale is a bit misleading, and depends on how you define "whale."Most of us think of whales as aquatic mammals. While Pakicetus is often claimed to be an ancestor of whales based on its ear-bones and other skull-bones, it was a terrestrial land mammal.
[snip]
Evolutionary thinking may force-fit this terrestrial mammal into being labeled a "cetacean," but by any standard definition of the term, it was certainly no "whale."  

Lasey Cuskin never fails to deliver.
BioLogos lists a few fossils that show the transition from land-living mammals to aquatic whales, with Pakicetus being the earliest, least whale-like one.
Lasey complains that they're calling it a whale because, presumably, modern whales (and other Cetaceans) are aquatic. To support this complaint, he cites Thewissen, who originally described Pakicetus:
 
Quote
Taken together, the features of the skull indicate that pakicetids were terrestrial, and the locomotor skeleton displays running adaptations. Some features of the sense organs of pakicetids are also found in aquatic mammals, but they do not necessarily imply life in water. Pakicetids were terrestrial mammals, no more amphibious than a tapir.

(J. G. M. Thewissen, E. M. Williams, L. J. Roe, & S. T. Hussain, "Skeletons of terrestrial cetaceans and the relationship of whales to artiodactyls," Nature, Vol. 413:277-281 (September 20, 2001).)

Terrestrial cetaceans = land-living WHALES, you idiot. The standard definition of whales is not "What looks like a whale to Casey Luskin".
I can't even begin to understand what amount of twisted "thinking" (for lack of a better word) must go on in the "brain" of someone like Luskin. As if it even mattered how we formally classify Pakicetus, when the important point is that it isn't a clear cut! Pakicetus had both features characteristic for land-living mammals AND for whales. That's the f*ing point.

/rant

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"Random mutations, if they are truly random, will affect, and potentially damage, any aspect of the organism, [...]
Thus, a realistic [computer] simulation [of evolution] would allow the program, OS, and hardware to be affected in a random fashion." GilDodgen, Frilly shirt owner

  
Kattarina98



Posts: 1255
Joined: Sep. 2009