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  Topic: Uncommonly Dense Thread 4, Fostering a Greater Understanding of IDC< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3282
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2012,13:19   

Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Oct. 13 2012,05:03)
gpuccio:
 
Quote
If even Zachriel canít see that there is no circularity in the dFSCI procedure, after I have given him explicit examples of how it is empirically capable of distinguishing designed strings from non designed strings with 100% specificity, then there is really no hope. There must really be something wrong in how these people reason.


This 100% procedure as far as I can tell goes something like this.

Here are three strings.

A) The rock fell on the IDiots head but it was ok because there was no damage.
B) 2348905urwe8o0asfjw80435u8023u45890wr4jfe9-0ui5904wuir09efu093wu845890reu804
C) The cat sat on the mat.

His "procedure" seems to be to ask somebody to determine which, if any, of those strings are non-random.

I shit you not.
 
Quote
Again: we test dFSCI with a set of long enough strings. Some of them are designed and meaningful, some of them are generated randomly. We know the origin of each string (if it was designed or randomly originated) because we have direct knowledge of how they were produced. Then we take some independent observer, who knows nothing about the origin of the strings, and ask him to infer desing, or not, using the evaluation of dFSCI for those strings. He will recognize the designed strings, with 100% specificity. Thius is the very simple meaning of my #5: an empirical test where dFSCI can easily recognize designed strings from non designed strings. Empirical test, nothing more.

http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelli....-436413

He then says:
 
Quote
If even Zachriel canít see that there is no circularity in the dFSCI procedure, after I have given him explicit examples of how it is empirically capable of distinguishing designed strings from non designed strings with 100% specificity, then there is really no hope. There must really be something wrong in how these people reason.

I knew that cognitive bias is strong and powerful in humans, but I really believed that it can be partially controlled in intelligent and goodwilled people. Evidently, that is not always the case.


Just wow.

Hey, Gpuccio, I think my next project will be a "is this string designed or not" website.

Given that you have a 100% perfect method of determining design or not you'll clean up.

But I suspect not. As gpuccio himself says:
Quote

There must really be something wrong in how these people reason.

If their reasoning is so poor then how come you are on the pissant blog bitching about people who actually get published on a regular basis and not just in books?

Someone needs to tell Joe about this.

All this time and Joe was saying that me asking him to do this was NOT what ID was about and ID didn't have to to this.  Now we see that it is important to ID.

I bet no one says anything.

Hey Joe, how does it feel to be shown to be wrong by both sides of the argument?

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
Patrick



Posts: 549
Joined: July 2011

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2012,13:20   

Quote (REC @ Oct. 13 2012,23:21)
Wow....UD has turned into the Mung show hasn't it?

Any of you worked with old-time coders? "Mung" in some circles means modify/mash until no good, that is, make so many little changes to the code so that it is irreversibly damaged.

If Mung turns out to be the deepest of all socks, a million internets to you, sir. You Munged UD.

In college "mung" was the name for the substance that collected under and behind our industrial-sized stove, grill, and deep fat fryer after being used to feed 60 guys for a semester.

It was . . . unwholesome.

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2012,17:19   

Joe defines ID away:
Quote
According to the reigning paradigm, specifics are not a requirement. However what is communicated would be 1- what everyone has and 2- what is required to ensure the survival of at least one in the population. And variation is what is required.

If replication is imperfect Joe then variation is a given.

So if that's all ID is doing, causing there to be "variation" then ID is not needed at all. There is variation regardless.

And Joe, don't you think that we'd have noticed such "communication" already? You've already yourself posted some links alluding to the fact this is a well studied area yet nothing that supports this claim.

I wonder why. And what's stopping you performing experiments yourself?

Oh, right....

Duh.

EDIT: And before you get all excited Joe with a quote mine I know they communicate, but they don't broadcast the contents of their genome which is what you are saying with your "what they have" idiocy.

Edited by oldmanintheskydidntdoit on Oct. 14 2012,17:20

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gaugerís work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2012,17:25   

Joe:
Quote
No duh. However your position cannot explain replication.

And no, the LEDERBERGs didnít know about bacterial communication. Please at least try to stay focused.


Zach:
Quote
That doesnít change that the mutations were random with respect to the environment. But feel free to explain how intercellular communication explains the Lederbergs experiment. Please be specific.


Oh, wait now. Zach asked that before Joe said that!

So Joe, no answer? Just going to ignore it and pretend it was not asked at all?

ROFL. Coward. Ignorance is nothing to be ashamed of. The lengths you go to protect it is.

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gaugerís work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2012,17:40   

Once again Joe says:
Quote
It is supported by the fact that your position cannot explain replication and the fact that the Lederbergs didnít know about bacterial communication which wasnít elucidated untill many years AFTER that experiment.


And so? What Zach said. As you, and all the onlookers well know.

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gaugerís work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2012,17:43   

Quote
No fallback. Just the facts. And I know facts bother you because the fact is your position has nothing.


Joe, the only person bothered that "my position" cannot explain replication is you.

It's not a problem for me. It's being worked on. And the more we find out the less it looks like an intelligent designer's services were called upon.

I can't explain replication.

But you can! So great for you! The fact that "it was designed" is a satisfying explanation to you is something you, not me, have to deal with.

Quote
So donít blame me because you spew bald assertions.

Did this method of diversion ever actually work? Perhaps at school? Probably not at work eh?

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gaugerís work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2012,17:49   

Joe,
Quote
Please do tell how YOU know what bacteria communicate. Chemical signals, or the lack of specific chemical signals could definitely communicate what each has at the ready. What do you think genomes are made of? Chemicals! What do you think does the chemical communicating? The chemically formed genomes!

Ah, but Joe. There's more to the genome then just chemicals! If you recreated a genome with just the chemicals it in it would not work!

Just look at the ribosome! Man made ones don't work! They are missing that vital something, information.

So if you are looking just at the level of chemicals then you are missing a trick I'm afraid.

What they are communicating is defined by the internal algorithm that they are running.

Quote

But anyways do tell how you know what is and isnít communicated- show your work. And then tell us how it was determined that all mutations are undirected, chance events.


In fact, the question is a somewhat different one. Here, let me remind you.
Quote
That doesnít change that the mutations were random with respect to the environment. But feel free to explain how intercellular communication explains the Lederbergs experiment. Please be specific.


You made a claim. Now support it. Stop pretending that the question is not on the table.

Or is that all you have to support ID? Running away from questions that ask you to support the claims you make?

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gaugerís work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2012,17:54   

Joe,
Quote
But Zach didnít say anything.

Coward.

Joe said:
Quote
Also the mutations allow for fitness- ie successful reproduction, so it would appear to be an example of built-in responses to environmental cues.


Zachriel said:

Quote
Thatís exactly what the Lederbergs showed wasnít the case. The mutations were not due to environmental clues. You could also look at the LuriaĖDelbrŁck experiment.


Joe said:
Quote
But Zach didnít say anything.


Yeah, Joe is the best ID has...

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gaugerís work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2012,17:57   

Joe
 
Quote
Nice cowardly non-response. And Venter created a genome with just chemicals and it worked, moron.


Really? I guess it's not surprising you don't realise when one claim you make undermines another you've made.

And as to the question:
 
Quote
I already explained it above. Stop blaming me for your problems.
No, you did not! You have not answered this question:
 
Quote

That doesnít change that the mutations were random with respect to the environment. But feel free to explain how intercellular communication explains the Lederbergs experiment. Please be specific.


What is your answer? Please be specific!

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gaugerís work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2012,17:58   

Joe
Quote
Please do tell how YOU know what bacteria communicate. Chemical signals, or the lack of specific chemical signals could definitely communicate what each has at the ready. What do you think genomes are made of? Chemicals! What do you think does the chemical communicating? The chemically formed genomes!


I'll tell you if you use your design detection skills on my little puzzle.

And Joe, if chemical signals are indeed doing what you say they are and you can use that to support ID then why don't you do the experiment yourself?

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gaugerís work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2012,18:01   

Joe,
Quote
Once AGAIN- the chemicals bacteria release alter the enivironemnt

LOL? That was your actual answer?
Ok, well, feel free to explain if the chemicals bacteria release alter the environment how that explains the Lederbergs experiment. Please be specific.

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gaugerís work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2012,18:06   

Joe,
Quote
Nice cowardly non-response. And Venter created a genome with just chemicals and it worked, moron.

The problem is Joe I asked this other Joe about it. And he said:
Quote
Why is it that artificial ribosomes do NOT function? If their functionality was the result of their physical and chemical components then artificial ribosomes should function just as the ribosomes found inside living organisms.

Artificial ribosomes are lacking the programming required by compilers to function.


Yep, more to the genome then just chemicals. That Joe is a clever guy...

That's why you can't examine my data and come to a conclusion using ID. You need to know the answer in advance,...

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gaugerís work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
stevestory



Posts: 8862
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2012,19:43   

Getting away from AtBC was good for me. It was a needed break. I've been away for what, 4 years or so?

I'm going way out on a limb here and guessing that the numbsculls at UD and the DI etc failed to do any groundbreaking research in biology in that time?

Have I missed anything interesting?

   
khan



Posts: 1479
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2012,19:49   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 14 2012,20:43)
Getting away from AtBC was good for me. It was a needed break. I've been away for what, 4 years or so?

I'm going way out on a limb here and guessing that the numbsculls at UD and the DI etc failed to do any groundbreaking research in biology in that time?

Have I missed anything interesting?

No scientific breakthroughs yet, but any day now...

--------------
"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 3553
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2012,20:16   

Some breathtaking inanity.

--------------
Ēletís not make a joke of ourselves.Ē

Pat Robertson

  
keiths



Posts: 2041
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2012,21:26   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 14 2012,17:43)
Getting away from AtBC was good for me. It was a needed break. I've been away for what, 4 years or so?

I'm going way out on a limb here and guessing that the numbsculls at UD and the DI etc failed to do any groundbreaking research in biology in that time?

Have I missed anything interesting?

Dude!  Welcome back!

We were just reminiscing about the AFDave TARD graph...

--------------
And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number.  -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3282
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2012,21:50   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 14 2012,19:43)
Getting away from AtBC was good for me. It was a needed break. I've been away for what, 4 years or so?

I'm going way out on a limb here and guessing that the numbsculls at UD and the DI etc failed to do any groundbreaking research in biology in that time?

Have I missed anything interesting?

ABout 300 JoeG and KF meltdowns.

You missed the big UD purge.  That was pretty funny.

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2012,23:41   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 14 2012,20:43)
Getting away from AtBC was good for me. It was a needed break. I've been away for what, 4 years or so?

I'm going way out on a limb here and guessing that the numbsculls at UD and the DI etc failed to do any groundbreaking research in biology in that time?

Have I missed anything interesting?

Missed you buddy.  But you aint missed nothing, I'm sure you could have predicted it.

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell.†Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Schroedinger's Dog



Posts: 1691
Joined: Jan. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 15 2012,03:07   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 15 2012,02:43)
Getting away from AtBC was good for me. It was a needed break. I've been away for what, 4 years or so?

I'm going way out on a limb here and guessing that the numbsculls at UD and the DI etc failed to do any groundbreaking research in biology in that time?

Have I missed anything interesting?

YEAH!!!!

Welcome back Steve!

--------------
"Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G

"I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis

"The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

   
Amadan



Posts: 1244
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 15 2012,03:13   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 15 2012,01:43)
Getting away from AtBC was good for me. It was a needed break. I've been away for what, 4 years or so?

I'm going way out on a limb here and guessing that the numbsculls at UD and the DI etc failed to do any groundbreaking research in biology in that time?

Have I missed anything interesting?

Lazarus!

--------------
"People are always looking for natural selection to generate random mutations" - Densye  4-4-2011
JoeG BTW dumbass- some variations help ensure reproductive fitness so they cannot be random wrt it.

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5377
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 15 2012,04:31   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 14 2012,20:43)
Getting away from AtBC was good for me. It was a needed break. I've been away for what, 4 years or so?

I'm going way out on a limb here and guessing that the numbsculls at UD and the DI etc failed to do any groundbreaking research in biology in that time?

Have I missed anything interesting?

As has been noted, not really, just variations on a theme.

You however, have been missed.

--------------
Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

Work-friendly photography
NSFW photography

   
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 15 2012,05:58   

Steve,
Dembski said the fludde was real to keep his job.

That's probably the highlight for me....

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gaugerís work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
Amadan



Posts: 1244
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 15 2012,06:17   

Oh, and we tried going Cold Turkey for Lent.

KF started to pester us by PM to come back. It would have been cruel to refuse.

--------------
"People are always looking for natural selection to generate random mutations" - Densye  4-4-2011
JoeG BTW dumbass- some variations help ensure reproductive fitness so they cannot be random wrt it.

   
k.e..



Posts: 2866
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 15 2012,08:51   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 15 2012,03:43)
Getting away from AtBC was good for me. It was a needed break. I've been away for what, 4 years or so?

I'm going way out on a limb here and guessing that the numbsculls at UD and the DI etc failed to do any groundbreaking research in biology in that time?

Have I missed anything interesting?

What have YOU missed?

4 years of shaved bassakwardness from teh morphodyke to start with! HOMO! Which seems to have disappeared †frontwards up its own rear lately.

You missed Clive who morphed into Barry both of whom haven't been seen in the same room, unless you don't count the freak section in sideshow alley aka UD as a hall of mirrors.

You missed Lissie and countless suicide socks who tore UD new rectums. And KF, Joe, Mung and a couple of hangnails there are the new UD rectums.

--------------
"I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his clown DaveTard suit" dogdidit
"Abbie Smith (ERV) who's got to be the most obnoxious arrogant snot I've ever seen except for when I look in a mirror" DAVE TARD
"ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus

  
stevestory



Posts: 8862
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 15 2012,14:57   

Quote (keiths @ Oct. 14 2012,22:26)
Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 14 2012,17:43)
Getting away from AtBC was good for me. It was a needed break. I've been away for what, 4 years or so?

I'm going way out on a limb here and guessing that the numbsculls at UD and the DI etc failed to do any groundbreaking research in biology in that time?

Have I missed anything interesting?

Dude! †Welcome back!

We were just reminiscing about the AFDave TARD graph...

Maybe my best moment here. Ahh, memories.

   
stevestory



Posts: 8862
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 15 2012,14:59   

Big UD purge? I went there for the first time in 4 years yesterday, and it looked different. No energy, or something.

   
JohnW



Posts: 2225
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 15 2012,15:23   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 15 2012,12:59)
Big UD purge? I went there for the first time in 4 years yesterday, and it looked different. No energy, or something.

There's been at least two major rounds of loyalty oaths, show-trials and purges in the last couple of years. †They've all but dropped the science figleaf, and the site is pretty much wall-to-wall Jesus. †Theyve kicked out all the serious opposition, all the socks, and anyone else who looked funny to Barry or Gordon.

The current TSZ thread is entertaining, though. †In summary: no-one at The Skeptical Zone can comment at UD because they've all been banned, and no-one at UD will leave the compound and play an away game, because they can't ban the opposition and declare victory. †So they're flinging turds from behind the bars.

--------------
Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it.
- Robert Byers

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3282
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 15 2012,15:23   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 15 2012,14:59)
Big UD purge? I went there for the first time in 4 years yesterday, and it looked different. No energy, or something.

Yeah, when was that, February or so?  Barry went on a massive banning spree.

It all started when one of us answered a question and someone over there deleted the answer, then complained that the 'coward' wouldn't come back to answer it.

A bunch of us (including me) went in and said, here's the answer, you deleted it.  Everyone was banned.  For a while, I think the entire UD community was KF, Barry, batshit, and gpuccio.

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5377
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 15 2012,16:55   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 15 2012,15:57)
Quote (keiths @ Oct. 14 2012,22:26)
Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 14 2012,17:43)
Getting away from AtBC was good for me. It was a needed break. I've been away for what, 4 years or so?

I'm going way out on a limb here and guessing that the numbsculls at UD and the DI etc failed to do any groundbreaking research in biology in that time?

Have I missed anything interesting?

Dude! †Welcome back!

We were just reminiscing about the AFDave TARD graph...

Maybe my best moment here. Ahh, memories.

Maybe *the* best moment here, for anyone, ever.

--------------
Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

Work-friendly photography
NSFW photography

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5377
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 15 2012,16:58   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 15 2012,15:59)
Big UD purge? I went there for the first time in 4 years yesterday, and it looked different. No energy, or something.

Oh wait. Was KairosFocus even around back then? Do you even know about Gordon E. Mullings of Manjack Heights, Montserrat, AKA KairosFocus, AKA GEM of TKI, AKA Gem of Talky, AKA Child-porn Collector?

--------------
Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

Work-friendly photography
NSFW photography

   
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