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cogzoid



Posts: 234
Joined: Sep. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 03 2005,15:17   

[Graffiti moved to Bathroom Wall. - Wesley R. Elsberry]

Quote
Hey, I'm not the one who mistook a newsblurb for a scientific survey, and then switched to a different set of figures when pressed for more detail.
 I never mistook any newsblurb for a scientific survey.  I merely did some Google searches for data on the subject at hand.  I didn't find your data, I found other data.  And multiple sources of data so you couldn't claim that I was cooking the numbers.  I'm still not convinced that the vicitmization methodology is superior to raw numbers.  I see flaws in both systems of data gathering.  I really don't care enough to get into a debate on which one is better.  However, I'm glad that you were able to explain the discrepency between the data per my asking.


Quote
But the time from Roe v. Wade to the Reagan presidency was only 8 years, just as I wrote, apparently to no avail. And that's when crime started falling.
   Naturally you point to a few years of less crime in the '80s and ignore the 20% drop in crime in the '90s.  Your link shows such a drop.  I'm not talking about the year to year fluctuations here.  I'm talking about the plummeting trend that happens to be 20 years after Roe vs. Wade.

You seem to not understand the difference between people trying to take credit for change, and people being responible for that change.  I couldn't care less that you find papers where people claim to have made the world better.  Correlation and Causation aren't the same.  If I cared more and had the time, I'd bother to find published arguments that claim that Guiliani is not responsible for the majority of the crime drop in NY.  I'll give credit where credit is due though, and say that a good portion of the drop IN NY was to his policies.

I'd like to point out that yes, the murder rate fell mostly in the major US cities.  But that is hardly suprising.  That is where the poor and violent live.  And when the inner-city poor have access to abortions there will be less unwanted children to commit crime in the future.  Simple logic.

Quote
But New York’s experience has not been unique; over the same period, the number of homicides has dropped in San Diego by 68 percent, in Boston by 65 percent, in Los Angeles by 60 percent, in San Antonio by 60 percent, in Houston by 43 percent, in New Orleans by 42 percent, in Detroit by 26 percent, in Philadelphia by 23 percent, in Dallas by 21 percent, and in Chicago by 18 percent.
Wow, Guiliani was good!  His policies helped the entire nation, that or the Republican factions in Los Angeles, San Diego and Boston finally took charge.  Thank goodness.  What you are left to show is that the synchronous crime drops in each of these cities was due to independant policy changes.  (Certainly it wasn't due to a pan-American policy change such as *gasp* abortion!)

I grow tired of your tireless unwaranted self-aggrandizing.

-Dan

  
The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 03 2005,15:58   

[Graffiti moved to Bathroom Wall. - Wesley R. Elsberry]

Quote
I grow tired of your tireless unwaranted self-aggrandizing.

 Yes, I can be an ass sometimes. All part of the show, I guess, even for sincere folk like me. But I do appreciate your arguments, and you gave me a few things to think about. Obviously, I still maintain my position has more evidence behind it, but there's no doubt that America doesn't abide by its ideals very often, and that's a shame. Thanks for being so reasonable.

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2005,04:50   

[Graffiti moved to Bathroom Wall. - Wesley R. Elsberry]

Quote
I agree that blacks are disproportionally responsible for crime in America.  However, they are also disproportionally poor.  I'm not convinced that being black makes you a criminal.  I am convinced that being poor increases your chances of a life of crime.  And that being black increases your chances of being poor.  The question is, if whites were more likely to be poor, would whites be disproportionally responsible for crime.  I would say yes.  But our society hasn't run that experiment, yet.

 One more thing. I think your assumption that racial crime disparities are merely a function of social inequalities can be questioned. The Color of Crime, a study done white nationalists Ian Jobling and Jared Taylor, but based exclusively on federal crime data and surveys, suggests that this may not be the case. Apparently, this study was reviewed by several criminologists  who endorsed the paper's math, if not conclusions. Some of its provocative findings:
Quote
“… between 2001 and 2003, blacks were 39 times more likely to commit violent crimes against whites than the reverse, and 136 times more likely to commit robbery.”

Between 2001 and 2003, blacks committed, on average, 15,400 black-on-white rapes per year, while whites averaged only 900 white-on-black rapes per year.

“Of the nearly 770,000 violent interracial crimes committed every year involving blacks and whites, blacks commit 85 percent and whites commit 15 percent.”
Nationally, youth gangs are 90 percent non-white. “Hispanics are 19 times more likely than whites to be members of youth gangs. Blacks are 15 times more likely, and Asians are nine times more likely.”

The only crime category in which Asians are more heavily represented than whites is illegal gambling.

“Blacks commit more violent crime against whites than against blacks. Forty-five percent of their victims are white, 43 percent are black, and 10 percent are Hispanic. When whites commit violent crime, only three percent of their victims are black.”
Far from being guilty of “racially profiling” innocent blacks, police have been exercising racial bias on behalf of blacks, arresting fewer blacks than their proportion of criminals: “… blacks who committed crimes that were reported to the police were 26 percent less likely to be arrested than people of other races who committed the same crimes.”

“… police are determined to arrest non-black rather than black criminals.” (I have seen this practice in operation on the streets and subways of New York.)

“[Blacks] are eight times more likely than people of other races to rob someone, for example, and 5.5 times more likely to steal a car.”
Charges of racial profiling, which maintain that police target innocent black motorists for traffic stops notwithstanding, a 2002 study by Maryland’s Public Service Research Institute found that police were stopping too few black speeders (23%), compared to their proportion of actual speeders (25%). In fact, “blacks were twice as likely to speed as whites” in general, and there was an even higher frequency of black speeders in the 90-mph and higher range.

“… the only evidence for police bias is disproportionate arrest rates for those groups police critics say are the targets of bias. High black arrest rates appear to reflect high crime rates, not police misconduct.”

Blacks not only commit violent crimes at far higher rates than non-blacks, but their crimes are more violent than those of whites. Blacks are three times as likely as non-blacks to commit assault with guns, and twice as likely as non-blacks to commit assault with knives.

Blacks not only commit violent crimes at far higher rates than whites, but blacks commit “white collar” offenses -- fraud, bribery, racketeering and embezzlement, respectively -- at two to five times the white rate.

The single greatest indicator of an area’s crime rate is not poverty or education, but race and ethnicity. Even when one controls for income, the black crime rate is much higher than the white rate.

 Pretty wild, I know. Does anybody here have an informed opinion? This could very well be a crackpot study, but it seems worthy of commentary. And it is based on government data.

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
MidnightVoice



Posts: 380
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2005,09:13   

[Graffiti moved to Bathroom Wall. - Wesley R. Elsberry]

The other issue is that the vast majority of "Black" people are not incarcerated for violent crimes. They are in prison mostly because of drug crime. The numbers at the government site for Health and Human services (http://www.oas.samhsa.gov/nhsda.htm) show that while 13 percent of drug users are "Black", they make up 38% of those arrested for drug use and 59% of those convicted of drug use.


http://www.oas.samhsa.gov/nhsda.htm[/i]

There has been a lot of data generated recently that suggests that for a variety of reasons an African American is more likely than a white person to be charged with a crime, and even more likely to be convicted.  There are some serious studies that suggest this bias is a major contributing factor to the apparently higher rate of black crime than white crime.  Reasons  include the poverty level - lack of access to good lawyers both before and during a trial.

http://www.peace.ca/truthaboutblackcrime.htm

Statistics on black crime are, on the surface, very bleak. There are, however, some very important factors that help to influence the numbers. Consider those and a strong case for a much different view unfolds. Since 62% of persons admitted to Federal prison and 31.1% of those admitted to State prison for the first time were sentenced because of drug offenses, let us first take a look at the racial disparity in the war on drugs:

The National Institute of Drug Abuse estimated that while 12 percent of drug  users are black, they make up nearly 50 percent of all drug possession  arrests in the U.S. (The Black and White of Justice, Freedom Magazine, Volume 128)
According to the National Drug Strategy Network, although African Americans  make up less than one-third of the population in Georgia, the black arrest  rate for drugs is five times greater than the white arrest rate. In addition,  since 1990, African Americans have accounted for more than 75% of persons  incarcerated for drug offenses in Georgia and make up 97.7% of the people in
that state who are given life sentences for drug offenses.


In six California counties independently surveyed in 1995, 100% of those  individuals sent to trial on drug charges were minorities, while the  drug-using population in those same counties was more than 60% white. (The  Black and White of Justice, Freedom Magazine, Volume 128)  A CNN article in 1996 sited U.S. government figures that show more than 90
percent of all federal prosecutions for crack cocaine in 1995 were of African  American defendants. In addition, unlike convictions for powered cocaine and
other drugs (which wealthy, Caucasian defendants are more likely to use), a conviction for selling crack cocaine can carry a lengthy prison term without benefit of parole.


--------------
If I fly the coop some time
And take nothing but a grip
With the few good books that really count
It's a necessary trip

I'll be gone with the girl in the gold silk jacket
The girl with the pearl-driller's hands

  
The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2005,09:22   

[Graffiti moved to Bathroom Wall. - Wesley R. Elsberry]

It must also be noted that while Color o' Crime focuses on blacks, it doesn't let whites off the hook. If I'm not mistaken, they go to great pains to emphasize the relatively high crime rate of whites relative to North East Asians.

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
cogzoid



Posts: 234
Joined: Sep. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2005,09:41   

[Graffiti moved to Bathroom Wall. - Wesley R. Elsberry]

Thoughts about the victimization methodology.

At first, I thought the victimization methodology would be a valid way to determine crime statistics.  But then I realized what's going on in those studies.  You're asking these liberal people in foreign countries if they feel victimized.  Surely, you can see the tendency for error that will result.  But, I thought, what's a better way to do it?  Small crimes have a tendency to not be reported or over sensationalized.  But, murders don't.  Our police force is pretty good about counting bodies and no one can claim that they "felt murdered" in a survey.

If we're going to look at one statistic to determine crime, it might as well be murder.

-Dan

  
The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2005,10:29   

[Graffiti moved to Bathroom Wall. - Wesley R. Elsberry]

Thanks for the links, Mr. MidnightVoice. The first link is broken, however.
Quote
The National Institute of Drug Abuse estimated that while 12 percent of drug  users are black, they make up nearly 50 percent of all drug possession  arrests in the U.S. (The Black and White of Justice, Freedom Magazine, Volume 128)
According to the National Drug Strategy Network, although African Americans  make up less than one-third of the population in Georgia, the black arrest  rate for drugs is five times greater than the white arrest rate. In addition,  since 1990, African Americans have accounted for more than 75% of persons  incarcerated for drug offenses in Georgia and make up 97.7% of the people in
that state who are given life sentences for drug offenses.


In six California counties independently surveyed in 1995, 100% of those  individuals sent to trial on drug charges were minorities, while the  drug-using population in those same counties was more than 60% white. (The  Black and White of Justice, Freedom Magazine, Volume 128)  A CNN article in 1996 sited U.S. government figures that show more than 90
percent of all federal prosecutions for crack cocaine in 1995 were of African  American defendants. In addition, unlike convictions for powered cocaine and
other drugs (which wealthy, Caucasian defendants are more likely to use), a conviction for selling crack cocaine can carry a lengthy prison term without benefit of parole.

 I once heard an African-American (Congresswoman? Spokeswoman? I forget...) propose the same argument on Bill Maher's Politically Incorrect, but some white guy (yeah, yeah, I know; Paley should have taken his Ginkoba that evening) seemed to refute it by pointing out that while Crack and Coke may be chemically similar, Crack is far more addictive, thus having the greater potential for stimulating criminal behavior. As he put it, "You never hear of coke neighborhoods, only crack neighborhoods. Why? Because crack more readily leads to the type of violent, impulsive behavior that fuels the crime rate. The police crackdown was a direct response to the pleas of the inner-city communities to do something about the epidemic. In fact, these policies were and are very popular among community leaders." Also, I remember reading in The End of Racism that when prior criminal history and the specific circumstances of the crime were taken into account, then the Black-White sentencing discrepancy disappears. Although narrow in focus, this study supports that contention. But I'll see what else I can find.
Quote
Thoughts about the victimization methodology.

At first, I thought the victimization methodology would be a valid way to determine crime statistics.  But then I realized what's going on in those studies.  You're asking these liberal people in foreign countries if they feel victimized.  Surely, you can see the tendency for error that will result.  But, I thought, what's a better way to do it?  Small crimes have a tendency to not be reported or over sensationalized.  But, murders don't.  Our police force is pretty good about counting bodies and no one can claim that they "felt murdered" in a survey.

If we're going to look at one statistic to determine crime, it might as well be murder.

 No, they ask the people if they have been victimized. Either someone burgles your home or not, either someone beats you up or not. Sure, close calls happen, just like faked crime statistics. In any case, the fair question is: do white Americans commit murders more frequently than white European Americans? I suspect not; in fact, when lily-white American border cities are compared with Canadian cities of similar population density, America often comes out ahead.

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
cogzoid



Posts: 234
Joined: Sep. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2005,12:53   

[Graffiti moved to Bathroom Wall. - Wesley R. Elsberry]

Quote
In any case, the fair question is: do white Americans commit murders more frequently than white European Americans? I suspect not; in fact, when lily-white American border cities are compared with Canadian cities of similar population density, America often comes out ahead.


Are whites the only members of society?

  
The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2005,03:55   

[Graffiti moved to Bathroom Wall. - Wesley R. Elsberry]

Quote
In any case, the fair question is: do white Americans commit murders more frequently than white European Americans

Obviously, this should read: "do white Americans commit murders more frequently than white Europeans?"
Quote
Are whites the only members of society?

  1) No, but let's face it: when evos talk about the "dangers" of fundamentalist Christianity, they're not referring to Joseph Lowery. They mean Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson. White Christians, in other words.
  2) When trying to measure the effects of a single variable (religion), it is important to match groups that are as identical as possible in all other ways. This avoids confounding factors.
  3) You may be forgetting, Cogzoid, that many of our European friends could be fined or imprisoned for frankly discussing racial matters. By keeping the discussion focused on whites, people like Midnightvoice can participate without fearing a Midnightknock on their door. Even the beautiful people can't fight The Man; take Brigitte Bardot, for example. Of course, given the current situation in Gay Paree, she might have to assume a new identity. May I suggest Cassandra? Mr. Newman, a remake of "Burn On" is badly needed......
 Well, we can argue the causes of differential crime rates until even Homer nods. But this part of the study is also worth debating:
Quote
The single greatest indicator of an area’s crime rate is not poverty or education, but race and ethnicity. Even when one controls for income, the black crime rate is much higher than the white rate.

 Gentlemen, the floor is open......

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 11 2005,10:19   

[Graffiti moved to Bathroom Wall. - Wesley R. Elsberry]

Well my, my, my, let's get a wheelbarrow for Hillary's top hitters - I don't think their hind legs are of much use right now. Ya sure don't have much of an appetite without the courts to enshine your hunches in Law - but I guess that goes without saying. After all, why else would you be quiverin' behind Big Brother's britches?

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 17 2005,15:56   

[Graffiti moved to Bathroom Wall. - Wesley R. Elsberry]

I'm bumping this thread for those who want to see how the debate really transpired. I'll let the reader decide for himself which of us is closer to the truth.

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 21 2005,07:24   

[Graffiti moved to Bathroom Wall. - Wesley R. Elsberry]

Last bump, I promise. But I think the lurkers should be able to evaluate the Cogzoid-Paley debate for themselves, if they wish.

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 28 2005,14:43   

[Graffiti moved to Bathroom Wall. - Wesley R. Elsberry]

Cogzoid wrote:
Quote
Fair enough.

Here's data on murder rates by country:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_mur_cap

Notice how the US is in the top 25 in between great countries like Bulgaria and Armenia.  While most of civilized (and secular!;) Europe have half or less of the murder rate.

I found this bit of data on abortions:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/hea_abo_cap

And finally rapes:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_rap_cap

 By the by, if yer just interested in objective counting, what's rape statistics doing in there?

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4503
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 17 2006,19:35   

I don't think a "sticky" will be needed. Threads in Ikonboard float to the top on recency of additions in the thread.

I will be encouraging PT contributors to make use of the ability to move comments from PT to this thread.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Tim Hague



Posts: 32
Joined: Nov. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 17 2006,21:31   

Hello Larry.  Welcome to After the Bar Closes.  

If I don't believe a theory is useful, why would I use it?  I would say that using a theory implies some kind of acceptance that the theory may be useful.  

You must also be careful not to fall into the 'evolution is just a theory' trap, because evolution is a theory in the same way that gravity is a theory.

   
Moses

Unregistered



(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 18 2006,02:54   

<quote>Comment #73125

Posted by Larry Fafarman on January 18, 2006 04:45 AM (e)

That was after a Supreme Court ruling. So far, there has been no Supreme Court ruling on ID, and no evidence that any of the states are being intimidated by threats of anti-ID lawsuits. In fact, one of the Ohio board of education members said, “let them sue us.” A million dollars is just mad money for a state.</quote>

Silly Larry and his silly theories of "a new name = a new trial" theory of "stupid courts."  Everyone with a brain knows that ID is creationism.  It was just renamed in a contest right after Edwards v. Aguillard or McLean v. Arkansas (can't remember which right now and really don't care).  Therefore, it has been ruled on by the Supreme Court.  Then, the new name was exposed for all to see in Kitzmiller v. Dover.

And that, of course, is the beauty of the legal system.  When you try to dress the emperor in new clothes, the legal system just doesn't care and looks a the fat, old-man underneath.  We don't need to have 5,000 trials over 5,000 slightly variant names.  We just need to see it and act.

Corkscrew

Unregistered



(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 18 2006,02:55   

Can someone please move Larry's comment to the Bathroom Wall or something? Now he's whining in earnest, the thread is guaranteed to go to at least 200 posts, which will make it hard to locate genuine points amidst the incipient morass of stupidity.

Raging Bee

Unregistered



(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 18 2006,02:55   

Notice how Larry only complains about off-topic posts AFTER he loses every off-topic argument he chose to start?

ben

Unregistered



(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 18 2006,02:55   

I think everyone but Larry has noticed that.

Mr Christopher

Unregistered



(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 18 2006,03:43   

<blockquote>Can someone please move Larry’s comment to the Bathroom Wall or something? Now he’s whining in earnest, the thread is guaranteed to go to at least 200 posts, which will make it hard to locate genuine points amidst the incipient morass of stupidity.</blockquote>

I agree with the cork screw

Stephen Elliott



Posts: 1754
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 18 2006,03:51   

Hoorah!
Glad to see this.
Maybe less threads will be getting trashed.

  
improvius



Posts: 807
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 18 2006,06:00   

Quote
If the arguments in favor of evolution are so overwhelming,  then why do evolutionists need the help of the courts in suppressing criticism of evolution ?  Now we are being told that ID cannot be taught even in philosophy class.


The litigation is not about protecting evolution.  The litigation is about preventing the state from advocating a particular religion.  You can't teach a class that advocates religious doctrine in a public school.  It doesn't matter what label you slap on it.

--------------
Quote (afdave @ Oct. 02 2006,18:37)
Many Jews were in comfortable oblivion about Hitler ... until it was too late.
Many scientists will persist in comfortable oblivion about their Creator ... until it is too late.

  
Ved



Posts: 398
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 18 2006,06:09   

Hooray, Larry is finally here, well sort of...

Quote
Larry wrote:

Also, if the public does not know that ID is “deceptive,” then why not teach the public about ID in school so that they would be better able to make up their own minds about it ? By not teaching about ID in school, we are promoting ignorance, not reducing it.


Sounds like a good idea, doesn't it? That's the kind of class that "dumb" Mirecki was going to teach!

  
Steverino

Unregistered



(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 18 2006,07:04   

"If the arguments in favor of evolution are so overwhelming, then why do evolutionists need the help of the courts in suppressing criticism of evolution ? Now we are being told that ID cannot be taught even in philosophy class."

Becuase idiots like yourself want to force your views upon my child.

It's no different than cheating or threatening my child. I will stand up and stop your from imposing your personal beliefs on my child.

You want a child who believe in they myth of Creation...then fvck with your own childs mind.

Larry Fafarman

Unregistered



(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 18 2006,07:21   

<blockquote>Comment #73124 posted by Wesley R. Elsberry on January 18, 2006 03:22 AM

Since the Bathroom Wall is once more available, stuff that looks like it’s not doing anything useful here is being moved there. If you are looking for your deathless prose, try there if it isn’t showing up here.</blockquote>

I cannot believe that my response to your Comment #73162 was removed to the Bathroom  Wall.     My response was definitely on-topic.    You removed my response not because it was off-topic,  but because you disagreed with it.

Also,   two of my responses to off-topic posts have been removed,  but the original off-topic posts,  Comment #73088 and Comment #73128,  both of which are personally directed at me,  are still here.  

I will not post again on any of your threads until I have received an assurance from you that you have cleaned up your act.

It is about time that the commenters on Panda's Thumb were treated with some respect.     Without the commenters,   Panda's Thumb would be nothing,  and you would not have gotten that big award from Scientific American magazine.

I expect this post to be removed too,   but I hope that some of the commenters here get a chance to read it.

Mr_Christopher



Posts: 1238
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 18 2006,07:38   

Hey *I* read your comments Larry, and they're still mindless.

Yep we should teach the controversy about intelligent design creationism, that non-scientific theory in crisis.  Let kids decide is my motto.  

As far as the course content goes, let's start with the Wedge Document.  Children should know that the Discovery Institute's two governing goals include:

1) To defeat scientific materialism and its destructive moral, cultural and political legacies.

2) To replace materialistic explanations with the theistic understanding that nature and human beings are created by God.

Let's help kids learn the dangers of replacing our scientific understanding with "theistic understandings" (Pat Robertson's comments on a variety of subjects will be used as an example of "theistic understandings").

Then let's add the "Teach The Controversy" campaign championed by the Discovery Institute.  We'll follow up those lessons with an in-depth study of the Kitzmiller v. Dover ruling.

Then let's teach what "peer reviewed" means.  Let's also teach kids what the "scientific method" is as well as devote some time to identifying what is a testable theory and what is not.  What is science and what is pseudo-science (intelligent design, healing crystals, cancer curing magnets, palm reading, etc).  We should cover what is natural and what is supernatural too.

Yep, we should be teaching about intelligent design creationism in public schools.  You will not get an arguement from me on that one.

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Uncommon Descent is a moral cesspool, a festering intellectual ghetto that intoxicates and degrades its inhabitants - Stephen Matheson

  
rdog29

Unregistered



(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 18 2006,07:51   

Hey Larry -

Lay off the opinion poll crap already! As pointed out many times before, science is not conducted by opinion polls. What is Constitutional to teach is also not decided by opinion polls.  

I suppose if enough people wanted Holocaust denial taught in history class, that would be OK too, huh?

Instead of relying on opinion polls, why don't you and the other IDiots come up with a theory and some data to support it?

Stephen Elliott



Posts: 1754
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 18 2006,07:54   

Quote (Guest @ Jan. 18 2006,13:21)
...
I cannot believe that my response to your Comment #73162 was removed to the Bathroom  Wall.     My response was definitely on-topic.    You removed my response not because it was off-topic,  but because you disagreed with it.

Also,   two of my responses to off-topic posts have been removed,  but the original off-topic posts,  Comment #73088 and Comment #73128,  both of which are personally directed at me,  are still here.  

I will not post again on any of your threads until I have received an assurance from you that you have cleaned up your act.

It is about time that the commenters on Panda's Thumb were treated with some respect.     Without the commenters,   Panda's Thumb would be nothing,  and you would not have gotten that big award from Scientific American magazine.

I expect this post to be removed too,   but I hope that some of the commenters here get a chance to read it.

LOL.

Let me point out to you what annoys people.

You post on a thread. Your point sounds on topic. Your backup arguments however are normally incorect.

To refute you there are really only 2 choices:

1. Ignore your incorrect statement. Leaving lurkers to conclude you are right.

or

2. Point out your errors .Where the thread starts going off-topic.

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4503
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 18 2006,08:02   

Quote

Without the commenters,   Panda's Thumb would be nothing,  and you would not have gotten that big award from Scientific American magazine.


And the evidence that would support this statement is, what, precisely?

PT in its first week passed 1,000 visits per day. We're coming up on our 2e6th visit. I suspect if every post simply referred commenters to the AE AtBC forum, that the visit figures would not change by much. Besides which, J.A. Davison has already laid claim to this argument, saying that banning him would cause PT to wither and die. Guess what? Traffic has been up since then.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Sir_Toejam

Unregistered



(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 18 2006,08:10   

<quote>Whatever damage was being done was not irreversible. The alleged damage to the impressionable minds of the students could have been undone by brainwashing those minds in the great truths of evolution theory.

</quote>

Larry provides a living case example that disproves his own statement.

If post-hoc exposure to actual data and evidence could "brainwash" anybody, you would be our willing slave by now.  We've spent weeks directing him to the completely verifiable mountains of evidence detailing aspects and support of evolutionary theory, but he consistently puts his hands over his eyes and willfully ignores it.

psychological defense mechanisms know no bounds; once exposed to a general set of theories that fit a pre-supposed worldview, it's quite hard to shake.

I personally have witnessed what happens when kids of high school age are exposed to slick but mis-representative ideas like ID.  they initially cause mass confusion at best, and completely confirm ideologies for some.

that's why we teach science in science class, because it's based on evidence and experiment, not supposition and ideology.

  19142 replies since Jan. 17 2006,08:38 < Next Oldest | Next Newest >  

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