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  Topic: The evolution of coloration in fungi, are brightly colored fungi aposematic?< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 26 2007,15:36   

As is common on ATBC, creobots often inspire interest in issues, even with their insipidity.

A recent case is that of whether brightly colored mushrooms are so because of selective pressures leading to aposematic coloration.

the issue CAN be answered with fairly simple experiments, but can also be inconclusive, depending on the results.

so, it got me curious as to what HAS been studied wrt to this issue, which isn't surprising given that my thesis was in part about investigating aposematic coloration in fishes.

so, quick google scholar search turns up potentially relevant articles in 30 seconds, but I don't have access to more than the abstracts.

If anyone else is interested in the topic, and has access, might i suggest we look at the following as a start:

Why Are Some Mushrooms Poisonous, and Do They Signal Their Unprofitability?

Not surprisingly, when you think about common fungivores, there IS evidence to conclude they do indeed signal... but not with visual stimuli.  which, even based on the abstract, leads one to be curious about the genetics of color in fungi, and wonder if color is at all linked to other methods of signalling.

btw, olfactory aposematism is not a new concept:

http://www.springerlink.com/content/t57126l4p7132203/

might also be worth looking more specifically at the biology of some of the more recognizable "brightly colored" mushrooms like Amanita spp.

http://www.journals.cambridge.org/action....=150609

moreover, it might be worthwhile to examine the role of non-commonly thought about fungivores... including other fungi:

http://www.journals.cambridge.org/action....d=35519

I am unable to locate a decent treatise on the genetics of the relevant fungi with a quick search, but there is certainly enough here to start with anyway.

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
jeannot



Posts: 1200
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 26 2007,16:02   

Pasting my comment from the other thread:

It seems that the paper quoted by Martin is almost the only one dealing the the evolution of toxicity in mushrooms. Unfortunately, Am. Nat. is one of the few journals (of ecology) I can't access.
However, I have the list of their cited references, and none of them deals with the genetics of coloration in mushroom, nor their selective role. They also clearly state in the abstract that the topic has received little attention. So I suppose most of the work remains to be done.

However, this reminds me of fascinating stories about coloration and mimicry in orchids. Stuff that has been deeply studied and explained by adaptive models.
Maybe the topic of this thread could shift a little bit. For the lurkers, the origin of batesian and mullerian mimmics (for instance), and the evolution of coloration could be interesting.

Not that I want absolutely to go off topic, but what do you think, Thomas, about this project of genetically engineered mosquito in order to fight malaria? I could start a thread about that as it clearly shows that the evolutionary theories could be extremely useful. It also deals with the concept of selfish gene and the units of selection (allele vs. individual), that we've been discussing from time to time.
But maybe PT already covered it in great details, I haven't been there for a while.

  
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 26 2007,16:09   

the quick search suggests to me that research regarding the genetics of fungi is apparently a pretty wide open field.

considering the implications of fungal chemistry discussed in many biochemistry oriented articles, sounds like a great avenue to take for a student interested in genetics (meaning there is likely some funding available, the subject material is typically easily studied in the lab and in the field, and there is likely budding interest within the larger scientific community).

just a quick tangent.

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 26 2007,16:11   

Quote (jeannot @ June 26 2007,16:02)
Pasting my comment from the other thread:

It seems that the paper quoted by Martin is almost the only one dealing the the evolution of toxicity in mushrooms. Unfortunately, Am. Nat. is one of the few journals (of ecology) I can't access.
However, I have the list of their cited references, and none of them deals with the genetics of coloration in mushroom, nor their selective role. They also clearly state in the abstract that the topic has received little attention. So I suppose most of the work remains to be done.

However, this reminds me of fascinating stories about coloration and mimicry in orchids. Stuff that has been deeply studied and explained by adaptive models.
Maybe the topic of this thread could shift a little bit. For the lurkers, the origin of batesian and mullerian mimmics (for instance), and the evolution of coloration could be interesting.

what about this one:

http://www.journals.cambridge.org/action....d=35519

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
jeannot



Posts: 1200
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 26 2007,16:18   

Well, it seems that we still don't know the role of coloration in fungi.  Closely related species often have some very different colors (in Boletus) for instance. This is puzzling.


VMartin may be right after all.  :p

  
IanBrown_101



Posts: 927
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: June 26 2007,16:19   

Quote (jeannot @ June 26 2007,16:18)
Well, it seems that we still don't know the role of coloration in fungi.  Closely related species often have some very different colors (in Boletus) for instance. This is puzzling.


VMartin may be right after all.  :p

I spot a potential quote mine...

--------------
I'm not the fastest or the baddest or the fatest.

You NEVER seem to address the fact that the grand majority of people supporting Darwinism in these on line forums and blogs are atheists. That doesn't seem to bother you guys in the least. - FtK

Roddenberry is my God.

   
jeannot



Posts: 1200
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 26 2007,16:30   

Regarding color and toxicity...
If many edible mushrooms have various flashy colors (which can be the case), having such a color would not be a clear advantage for a poisonous species.
And we still don't know whether most fungivores are able to distinguish between colors (I bet slugs are not good at it).

We know that pigments are relatively costly to synthesize for an organism. There must be some selective advantage, evolutionary hitch-hiking would not be sufficient to explain their maintenance.

  
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 26 2007,16:46   

Quote
VMartin may be right after all.  :p


no, not at all.  martin was assuming that coloration was associated with signalling, and if no role for signalling is found in fungi, then the entire darwinian narrative breaks down. It doesn't, since the signalling has been supported in the very paper he chose to cite, just not with visual cues.

but then, I don't give a shit what Martin "thinks", and would prefer the issue being addressed in this thread be the science, and not Vmartin.

it's quite possible that coloration in fungi is fitness neutral, or linked to other fitness related traits.  hence the interest in the genetics.

 
Quote
If many edible mushrooms have various flashy colors (which can be the case), having such a color would not be a clear advantage for a poisonous species.


Indeed, the other issue not taken into account here, is how potential fungivores view the colorations themselves.

Just because they look aposematically colored to US, doesn't mean they appear so to a potential fungivore.

John Endler has done some great work of late teasing out the perception bias in this issue. (not with fungi, but with fish)

it's a great example of how new technologies allow us to answer questions, as it's only been fairly recently that the ability to directly measure how fish and other animals process visual stimuli has been available.

so now, we actually CAN look at how a potential predator views various colors and patterns, and thus make far more relevant conclusions about the role of specific visual cues in signalling.

http://www.lifesci.ucsb.edu/eemb....ns.html

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 26 2007,16:54   

Quote
We know that pigments are relatively costly to synthesize for an organism.


depends on the organism and the pigment.

again, why I was thinking it might be useful to take a gander at the biology of one of the commonly noted "colorful" fungi.

Quote
Closely related species often have some very different colors (in Boletus) for instance. This is puzzling.


Indeed.  Why I thought it worthy of a thread on it's own.
The work I did as a grad student trying to tease out the role of ontogenetic color change in damselfishes was filled with a lot of parallels to this one.  The larger issue of signalling has always fascinated me.

I posted a paper I published on some early work in that area on this board a while back.  20 years later, i still find myself puzzled by it, and still see no conclusive studies on the issue have appeared in the literature.

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2779
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: June 26 2007,17:05   

Quote (jeannot @ June 26 2007,16:02)
It seems that the paper quoted by Martin is almost the only one dealing the the evolution of toxicity in mushrooms. Unfortunately, Am. Nat. is one of the few journals (of ecology) I can't access.
However, I have the list of their cited references, and none of them deals with the genetics of coloration in mushroom, nor their selective role. They also clearly state in the abstract that the topic has received little attention. So I suppose most of the work remains to be done.

I was able to download a PDF version of the paper that JAD's sockpuppet mentioned in the other thread. Send me a PM if you want a copy.

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 26 2007,17:15   

done.

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
Steviepinhead



Posts: 532
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 26 2007,18:08   

Just as a side-note, our very own Ichthyic just scooped up the monthly "Molly" award on PZ's Pharyngula blog.
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyng....t_t.php

Reasons given for former winners include: being a good dancer (our very own shimmy-lady), having access to more than one brain at a time (Torbjorn, also a PT regular), being just hella smart, having good hair, and things of that ilk.

Well, obviously having PT/AtBC affiliations doesn't hurt, but since Ichthyic clearly didn't win for his dance moves, his good hair, his excess of brains (just kidding, ichthy!), we're left with, what else ... his PT/AtBC affiliations?

Anyway, congrats, shark-guy!

C'mon up to Seattle during the short interval before the following promise escapes my pinhead-sized memory, and you'll enjoy one evening of free libations on me (well, maybe I can get the other Sea-AtBC-ers, fine finny fellows all, to help out).

  
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 26 2007,18:15   

thanks for the invite; I always liked the time I spent in Seattle, and occasionally regret not accepting the invite to the Marine Policy dept. at UW (at the time, I was more interested in behavior and research than policy and application).

long way for me to go now, though.  Might have to wait for one of those "super saver" airfare things.

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
Steviepinhead



Posts: 532
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 26 2007,19:25   

Well, just so you know that you'll land with a splash in the drinkie...

  
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 26 2007,19:51   

pool sized drinks, you say?

don't mind if I do!

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
snoeman



Posts: 109
Joined: April 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 26 2007,23:48   

Quote (Ichthyic @ June 26 2007,19:51)
pool sized drinks, you say?

don't mind if I do!

Show up, and we'll take you here for the big drinks.

Two hands, people, if you please...  :D

  
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 27 2007,00:10   

should I bring my wetsuit?

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
VMartin



Posts: 525
Joined: Nov. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 27 2007,13:20   

Jeannot

 
Quote

Closely related species often have some very different colors (in Boletus) for instance. This is puzzling.


That's right. I would like to draw your attention also to genera Amanita. We can observe among them very different caps coloration. It might be of interest that one of the most delicious mushroom Amanita muscaria as well as one of the most poisonous Amanita phalloides
belongs to the Genera.

http://www.foto-net.sk/?idi=151&page=1

Red Amanita muscaria has toxic effects and are sought after not only by shamans also by deers. I have read that shamans used extract from it to lure deers.

Amanida phalloides has green cap. So do not follow darwinian rule of thumb that bright aposematic coloration means threat and vica versa with cryptic coloration. The rule will kill you. There is no rule how to recognize edible and poisonous mushrooms.

------------

I don't like to disturb cheerfull self-congratulation of darwinists here to Ichthyic great success - he won a prize from doctor of darwinism Meyeres who produces his "random biological ejaculation" at Pharongogola like an automata every two hours unless he sleeps. The last but one winner was dancerin and neodarwinist, surrealist and poet Kristine.

--------------
I could not answer, but should maintain my ground.-
Charles Darwin

  
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 27 2007,13:23   

ok, now this idiot is trolling an actual thread about something NOT him.  What's more, the response to his idiocy is even in his own thread.  AND in this one.

look UP idiot:
Quote
no, not at all.  martin was assuming that coloration was associated with signalling, and if no role for signalling is found in fungi, then the entire darwinian narrative breaks down. It doesn't, since the signalling has been supported in the very paper he chose to cite, just not with visual cues.



can we please boot his ass now?

he's more than irritating.

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
VMartin



Posts: 525
Joined: Nov. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 27 2007,13:34   

Quote

ok, now this idiot is trolling an actual thread about something NOT him.  What's more, the response to his idiocy is even in his own thread.


What are you babbling about cretin? What thread? Is it forbidden here to make fun of Meyers and Christine but it is reccomended to denigrate "Javison" in every post however you like? Calm down and go observe your colorful fish-ancestors in aquarium.

Aha, the cretin edited his latest post and make it even more oscure:

Quote

no, not at all.  martin was assuming that coloration was associated with signalling, and if no role for signalling is found in fungi, then the entire darwinian narrative breaks down. It doesn't, since the signalling has been supported in the very paper he chose to cite, just not with visual cues.


I reccomended not to it green Amanita. Do not follow any darwinian rules and any visual cues picking up mushrooms! Is it clear cretine?

--------------
I could not answer, but should maintain my ground.-
Charles Darwin

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 27 2007,13:41   

Quote (VMartin @ June 27 2007,13:34)
Quote

ok, now this idiot is trolling an actual thread about something NOT him.  What's more, the response to his idiocy is even in his own thread.


What are you babbling about cretin? What thread? Is it forbidden here to make fun of Meyers and Christine but it is reccomended to denigrate "Javison" in every post however you like? Calm down and go observe your colorful fish-ancestors in aquarium.

Poor widdle VMartin. So afraid to answer questions.

Quote
The last but one winner was dancerin and neodarwinist, surrealist and poet Kristine.


Speaking of which, V, what was the meaning of that bizarre threat you left at Kristine's blog? Something like "something bad may happen to you"? What was that about?

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 27 2007,13:41   

this thread is for discussing the science involved in signaling.

something you haven't the slightest clue about, since you obviously missed the whole damn point of the paper you cited in your attempt to "tear down" evolutionary theory.

It's quite humorous that you are such an idiot that you in fact missed that signaling HAD, in fact, been supported in the paper, just not with visual cues.  which is exactly why I told you to go read up on how potentially neutral traits are maintained in a given population.

now run along back to your own thread where everyone can continue to laugh at you without the distraction of having to actually think about the real issues involved.

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
stevestory



Posts: 8959
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 27 2007,13:42   

Quote (VMartin @ June 27 2007,14:34)
Quote

ok, now this idiot is trolling an actual thread about something NOT him.  What's more, the response to his idiocy is even in his own thread.


What are you babbling about cretin? What thread? Is it forbidden here to make fun of Meyers and Christine but it is reccomended to denigrate "Javison" in every post however you like? Calm down and go observe your colorful fish-ancestors in aquarium.

It is forbidden to insult Kristine because commenters here have to give each other some minimal respect. Not forbidden to insult "Javison" because he is not here. And PZ's name is Myers, not Meyers.

"Idiot" and "cretin" are insults, by the way, and that should stop.

Edited by stevestory on June 27 2007,14:43

   
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 27 2007,13:45   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ June 27 2007,13:41)
Quote (VMartin @ June 27 2007,13:34)
Quote

ok, now this idiot is trolling an actual thread about something NOT him.  What's more, the response to his idiocy is even in his own thread.


What are you babbling about cretin? What thread? Is it forbidden here to make fun of Meyers and Christine but it is reccomended to denigrate "Javison" in every post however you like? Calm down and go observe your colorful fish-ancestors in aquarium.

Poor widdle VMartin. So afraid to answer questions.

I don't WANT him to answer questions here.

total waste of fucking time.

I don't give a shit what he "thinks" (an oxymoron in his case), he obviously has nothing interesting to contribute, hasn't the slightest clue what he is talking about, and can serve as nothing but a distraction from actually discussing the real issues involved in studying signaling.

seriously, no offense, but if you want him to answer questions, take it back to the other thread.

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 27 2007,13:46   

Quote
"Idiot" and "cretin" are insults, by the way, and that should stop.


you know how to fix it, permanently in this case.

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
stevestory



Posts: 8959
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 27 2007,13:48   

ban both of you? I don't want to do that.

   
VMartin



Posts: 525
Joined: Nov. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 27 2007,13:51   

I don't know why +++++ +++++++  sends his nonsense here like an automata. But I underestand him on the other side. Darwinists like him do not like the issue - that is also reason why there are so few researches on the colorarton of fruiting bodies of mushrooms. Because the results obviously do not support natural selection as the source of their coloration. And it is what darwinists hate -see +++++ Ichthyic who want to ban me because mentioning it. He would like to obscure problem with "signaling" babble even though I am discussing here COLORATION OF FRUITING BODIES OF MUSHROOMS only. Capito?

--------------
I could not answer, but should maintain my ground.-
Charles Darwin

  
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 27 2007,13:51   

Quote
ban both of you? I don't want to do that.


OH PLEASE DO.

that would be just so perfect.

read your PM.

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
stevestory



Posts: 8959
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 27 2007,13:55   

Quote (Ichthyic @ June 27 2007,14:51)
Quote
ban both of you? I don't want to do that.


OH PLEASE DO.

that would be just so perfect.

read your PM.

1 I don't see any reason to ban either of you.

2 VMartin, cut out the insults, and I'll have Icky do the same.

3 Further discussion of moderation should be by Personal Message.

   
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 27 2007,13:56   

already done.

waiting....

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
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