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  Topic: The "I Believe In God" Thread, You may know him from "Panda's Thumb"...< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
didymos



Posts: 1807
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 31 2010,16:04   

At the request of OgreMkV, I do hereby create this thread for IBIG. So....yeah.

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I wouldn't be bothered reading about the selfish gene because it has never been identified. -- Denyse O'Leary, professional moron
Again "how much". I don't think that's a good way to be quantitative.-- gpuccio

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3268
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 31 2010,16:39   

Well, let's see where we are now.

My current discussion with IBIG is in regards to the quote-mine featured on PT here: Dembski vs. Evo-Devo

IBIG maintains that this is a correct representation of the discovery article author's conclusion.

I maintain that it is (and remains since 2005) a quote-mine because it does not accurately represent the author of the original article.  If effect, it lies about what Elizabeth Pennisi said in her Science article.

Furthermore, I quote Psalms where it says, "There is no God." as an example of a quote-mine that is exactly the same as the discovery article.

Both quotes are taken out of context and result in a misrepresentation of the intent of the original author.

IBIG maintains that the discovery quote is legitimate, but my quote is a lie and that I'm a liar.  

So, IBIG, please explain why my quote-mine of the Bible is wrong, while the discovery article quote-mine is OK.

Over to you.

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didymos



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(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 31 2010,16:51   

A little IBIG background:

OK, I knew this guy was....prolific, but...WOW.  He got permanently exiled to PT's Bathroom Wall on February 8, 2010, at which time it had filled 24 pages. The exile announcement started off page 25.  It's now on page 425!  Four-Hundred and Twenty Five!  All 400 pages largely to his "credit" as Prime Instigator, and that still doesn't include the posts that got BWed before the perma-exile, which go back to page  23. I have no clue how many comments he actually managed to slip onto normal threads.  Damn.  I said "Damn."

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I wouldn't be bothered reading about the selfish gene because it has never been identified. -- Denyse O'Leary, professional moron
Again "how much". I don't think that's a good way to be quantitative.-- gpuccio

  
Wolfhound



Posts: 468
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 31 2010,16:56   

Yes, he has...stamina...

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I've found my personality to be an effective form of birth control.

  
Henry J



Posts: 4013
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 31 2010,18:45   

The word "absolute" is an adjective, not a noun. As such, to have meaning the type of object being modified by it has to be specified, and consistent.

Henry

  
didymos



Posts: 1807
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 31 2010,18:54   

Quote (Henry J @ Oct. 31 2010,16:45)
The word "absolute" is an adjective, not a noun. As such, to have meaning the type of object being modified by it has to be specified, and consistent.

Henry

Well, actually, it is a noun.  It can also be an adverb (fairly rare, that).  It's simply used most commonly as an adjective.

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I wouldn't be bothered reading about the selfish gene because it has never been identified. -- Denyse O'Leary, professional moron
Again "how much". I don't think that's a good way to be quantitative.-- gpuccio

  
mplavcan



Posts: 6
Joined: Oct. 2010

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 31 2010,20:15   

He has stamina, and yet he STILL hasn't answered a single question. But I know enough people who think like he does to make the whole thread an illustration of why creationism persists.

  
Flint



Posts: 478
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 31 2010,20:34   

Quote
It is extremely contradictory to make any claims that I, or anyone else is wrong about anything, because most if not all of you don’t accept that absolutes exist. You would also have to accept that there is no right or wrong answer or position about anything. I’m sorry but your worldview is irrational.

I think it was Isaac Asimov who wrote that primitive people thought the earth was flat. They were wrong. Later, people thought the earth was spherical. They were also wrong, but MUCH closer. There are degrees of wrong. A worldview that holds that every claim must be absolutely right or absolutely wrong is inherently unable to distinguish the difference between a flat earth (wrong) and a spherical earth (wrong).

The scientific enterprise, considered altogether, is a method of approximating an understanding of reality, more and more accurately all the time. BUT one of the presumptions of science is that "perfectly, completely right" simply cannot exist. ALL scientific theories can be improved in some way, in principle.

So while there may be "no right or wrong answer or position about anything", there IS a vast gulf between unbelieveably stupidly wrong despite all available evidence, and "as close as we can get considering all currently available evidence." Claiming these are the same is one of those positions that is stupidly wrong, not even close.

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3268
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 31 2010,20:36   

Quote (mplavcan @ Oct. 31 2010,20:15)
He has stamina, and yet he STILL hasn't answered a single question. But I know enough people who think like he does to make the whole thread an illustration of why creationism persists.

I agree.  It's a fascinating subject.

They twist things so much and learn just enough to make uninformed statements.

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Badger3k



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(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 31 2010,20:59   

You guys weren't kidding.  Wow.  At least, from what I've read or skimmed so far, he hasn't started posting YouTube videos.

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"Just think if every species had a different genetic code We would have to eat other humans to survive.." : Joe G

  
OgreMkV



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Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 31 2010,21:20   

Quote (Badger3k @ Oct. 31 2010,20:59)
You guys weren't kidding.  Wow.  At least, from what I've read or skimmed so far, he hasn't started posting YouTube videos.

You mean recently?

That was his favorite tactic.  He'd disappear for two or three days when we really had him nailed to a tree (as it were), then reappear, post a totally unrelated youtube link and ask "So what about this?"

At which point, half of the group would fisk the hell out of the video, while the other half kept asking him about the previous discussion topic.

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mplavcan



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(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 31 2010,21:46   

Quote (OgreMkV @ Oct. 31 2010,21:20)
Quote (Badger3k @ Oct. 31 2010,20:59)
You guys weren't kidding.  Wow.  At least, from what I've read or skimmed so far, he hasn't started posting YouTube videos.

You mean recently?

That was his favorite tactic.  He'd disappear for two or three days when we really had him nailed to a tree (as it were), then reappear, post a totally unrelated youtube link and ask "So what about this?"

At which point, half of the group would fisk the hell out of the video, while the other half kept asking him about the previous discussion topic.

I doubt he will join this discussion. Assuming that he isn't a troll, and is sincere, then this forum is not public enough for him. He acts like a street preacher, and if he is real, probably thinks that he is witnessing and will turn souls to Christ. He is not interested in debate or truth -- only casting doubt and spreading the Gospel. Notice how every 20 pages or so he would revert to quoting scriptures?

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3268
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 31 2010,21:55   

Quote (mplavcan @ Oct. 31 2010,21:46)
Quote (OgreMkV @ Oct. 31 2010,21:20)
Quote (Badger3k @ Oct. 31 2010,20:59)
You guys weren't kidding.  Wow.  At least, from what I've read or skimmed so far, he hasn't started posting YouTube videos.

You mean recently?

That was his favorite tactic.  He'd disappear for two or three days when we really had him nailed to a tree (as it were), then reappear, post a totally unrelated youtube link and ask "So what about this?"

At which point, half of the group would fisk the hell out of the video, while the other half kept asking him about the previous discussion topic.

I doubt he will join this discussion. Assuming that he isn't a troll, and is sincere, then this forum is not public enough for him. He acts like a street preacher, and if he is real, probably thinks that he is witnessing and will turn souls to Christ. He is not interested in debate or truth -- only casting doubt and spreading the Gospel. Notice how every 20 pages or so he would revert to quoting scriptures?

If so, then he is the WORST witness for any religion I've ever heard of in my life.

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prong_hunter



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(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 31 2010,22:30   

IBIG said on Panda's Thumb, Sept. 4 2010:
"Many here state that logic is a convention or a construct of man, so now let me ask these two questions:"
"Is big bang a convention or construct of man?"
"Is evolution a convention or construct of man? "

"I knew when I asked the questions about logic, that those here would state that logic was a convention or construct of man, which is what I really wanted to hear. I gave you all many opportunities to state otherwise, but to no avail. Now that you have stated that logic is a convention and construct of man, you must admit that big bang and evolution are a convention of man."

"Logic is absolute and not a construct of man, because before man gave a name to the law of non-contradiction it still existed. "

"It did not need a system to define it for it to have existed, the law of non-contradiction is absolute."

"'I am a man, and I am not a man' is this logical? would there be a lie somewhere in that statement, yet if we used fuzzy logic it would be valid, because it would not be completely wrong, at least 50% of the statement is correct."

"God’s logic will always lead to the truth!"

And on Sept. 7:
"I’ve not finished with logic yet, just wait and see!!! Be prepared!!!"

Are you ready for some fun?

IBIG will teach you his "God's logic".

  
Badger3k



Posts: 861
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 31 2010,23:48   

Quote (OgreMkV @ Oct. 31 2010,21:20)
Quote (Badger3k @ Oct. 31 2010,20:59)
You guys weren't kidding.  Wow.  At least, from what I've read or skimmed so far, he hasn't started posting YouTube videos.

You mean recently?

That was his favorite tactic.  He'd disappear for two or three days when we really had him nailed to a tree (as it were), then reappear, post a totally unrelated youtube link and ask "So what about this?"

At which point, half of the group would fisk the hell out of the video, while the other half kept asking him about the previous discussion topic.

Ok - I didn't want to try to read 240-odd pages.  I was thinking of bornagain7...something (damn memory, stuck on Fallout:New Vegas now and can't remember his number 777?) - you know who I mean, I am sure.  Coincidence, or just commonalities surfacing, do you think?

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"Just think if every species had a different genetic code We would have to eat other humans to survive.." : Joe G

  
Badger3k



Posts: 861
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 31 2010,23:56   

Quote (prong_hunter @ Oct. 31 2010,22:30)
IBIG said on Panda's Thumb, Sept. 4 2010:
"Many here state that logic is a convention or a construct of man, so now let me ask these two questions:"
"Is big bang a convention or construct of man?"
"Is evolution a convention or construct of man? "

"I knew when I asked the questions about logic, that those here would state that logic was a convention or construct of man, which is what I really wanted to hear. I gave you all many opportunities to state otherwise, but to no avail. Now that you have stated that logic is a convention and construct of man, you must admit that big bang and evolution are a convention of man."

"Logic is absolute and not a construct of man, because before man gave a name to the law of non-contradiction it still existed. "

"It did not need a system to define it for it to have existed, the law of non-contradiction is absolute."

"'I am a man, and I am not a man' is this logical? would there be a lie somewhere in that statement, yet if we used fuzzy logic it would be valid, because it would not be completely wrong, at least 50% of the statement is correct."

"God’s logic will always lead to the truth!"

And on Sept. 7:
"I’ve not finished with logic yet, just wait and see!!! Be prepared!!!"

Are you ready for some fun?

IBIG will teach you his "God's logic".

Not the "logic" argument!  There has to be an apologetics bingo somewhere (nothing on the first two pages of a google search, maybe further in?).  I can never understand how people can mix the descriptions we make about something (such as codifying the "laws of logic", so to speak, with the reality of such a thing.  There are logical absolutes that are a property of reality (as we have come to understand it).  These seem to be part of what is - there isn't any need to explain them, as far as I can tell.  But some people want explanations.

I can't figure out why some people, who want absolutes, believe that the things they want as unchanging are at the whim of their god.  "Logic comes from God" - who, by the way, can change it any time he feels like, which is ok, since he has all the power and gets to say what is what, what is just, and what the heck we have to do to stay on his good side or be tortured forever...

Whackadoodles

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"Just think if every species had a different genetic code We would have to eat other humans to survive.." : Joe G

  
prong_hunter



Posts: 45
Joined: May 2010

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 01 2010,06:06   

Well, he really showed them on Panda's Thumb. Here's what IBIG said Oct. 31st 2010:
"No you are wrong, All along I have not just questioned whether there are moral absolutes, but I have also questions whether there are absolutes of any kind. It was said that there were no absolutes, which I clearly demonstrated was absurd, because if that were true then you could not state that there are no absolutes. If one is to state that there are no absolutes, then one would be making an absolute statement that there are no absolutes. So, evidently here you all only think there is one form of absolute, and that is that there is no absolutes:)"

"Go back and read my previous posts, because I clearly demonstrated that there are mathematic absolutes, and there clearly are moral absolutes also, I answered that. You again like to twist the truth to agree with you naturalistic view that there are no absolutes, but that is irrational. You are irrational!"

How can any one argue against 'logic' like that?

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3268
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 01 2010,07:01   

Quote (prong_hunter @ Nov. 01 2010,06:06)
Well, he really showed them on Panda's Thumb. Here's what IBIG said Oct. 31st 2010:
"No you are wrong, All along I have not just questioned whether there are moral absolutes, but I have also questions whether there are absolutes of any kind. It was said that there were no absolutes, which I clearly demonstrated was absurd, because if that were true then you could not state that there are no absolutes. If one is to state that there are no absolutes, then one would be making an absolute statement that there are no absolutes. So, evidently here you all only think there is one form of absolute, and that is that there is no absolutes:)"

"Go back and read my previous posts, because I clearly demonstrated that there are mathematic absolutes, and there clearly are moral absolutes also, I answered that. You again like to twist the truth to agree with you naturalistic view that there are no absolutes, but that is irrational. You are irrational!"

How can any one argue against 'logic' like that?

I once tried to argue with logic like that... then I gave up and married her.  She keeps the logic to a minimum though.

Arguing with IBIG is like arguing with a two-day old tuna sandwich.  You can scream all you want, it's still gonna stink.

I'll post my list of unanswered (mostly) questions in a bit.



Edited by Lou FCD on Nov. 01 2010,18:59

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fusilier



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 01 2010,07:59   

Quote (OgreMkV @ Nov. 01 2010,08:01)
[quote=prong_hunter,Nov. 01 2010,06:06]{snip}

Arguing with IBIG is like arguing with a two-day old tuna sandwich.  You can scream all you want, it's still gonna stink.

I'll post my list of unanswered (mostly) questions in a bit.

May I nominate that for a Quip of the Week, if not POTW?

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fusilier
James 2:24

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3268
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 01 2010,08:34   

OK, my questions for IBIG... which I'm sure he'll get to as soon as he registers.

Do organisms produce more offspring than can possibly survive?
What is life? (define, not examples)
Are those books previously mentioned true historical fact?
Why did you not discuss the echidna?
Why do you refuse an honest offer to learn about all the things you don’t understand?
Why did you steal works from other authors and not give them credit?
How long is the shortest RNA strand that acts as a functional catalyst for biochemical
reactions?
What is an opsin and why does it demolish your claim of no common descent?
Do you own and have you read the MIT book you linked to?
Do you own and have you read the Reese, Campbell Biology 5th Edition?
Why won’t you answer these questions?
Even if you disprove evolution, how does that help whatever your hypothesis?
Why do pro-science sites allow you to babble on, while pro-creationist sites do not allow
any scientists to comment?
Do you really think your comments here are original in anyway?
can you explain why I might think sympatric speciation is an example of evolution without mutation
Who wrote the Gospel According to John?
Why won’t you show that Jesus fulfilled all the prophecies of the messiah?
What evidence would convince you that common ancestry is correct.
Which group, AiG or the DI, is lying and why aren’t you taking them to task for “lying for Jesus”?”
What mechanism activates front-loaded genetics?
What, exactly, is the problem with mutation rates (include sources for your information)?
Do you believe in the flood of the Bible?
Do you take all the anti-biotics like the doctor tells you to?
(From DS)Why do dolphins have five digits early in development if they do not have five digits as adults?
(From DS) Why do dolphin embryos start out with the nostril on the front of the head if it is positioned on the top of the head in the adult?
(From DS) Why do dolphin embryos have pharyngeal gill pouches if they lack gills as adults?
(From DS) Why do dolphin embryos start to develop hind limbs if they do not have hind limbs as adults?
(From DS) Why do horse embryos have five digits if they have only one as adults?
(From DS) Why are there fossils intermediate between apes and humans?
(From DS) How old is the earth? How do you know?
(From DS) Why is there a nested hierarchy of genetic similarity with Cetacea deeply nested within Artiodactyla? (Hint: common design is not the answer).
(From DS) Why is there a nested hierarch of SINE insertions with Cetacea deeply nested within Artiodactyla, the exact same relationship revealed by the developmental and other genetic data? (Hint: common design is not the answer).
(From DS) Why are human and chimp chromosomes nearly identical gene for gene and band for band, including the extra centromeric and telomeric sequences found in human chromosome two? (Hint: common design is not the answer).
(From DS) Why is there a nested hierarchy of genetic similarity for primates with humans most closely related to chimps? Why is this pattern consistent in both nuclear and mitochondrial genes and also consistent with the fossil evidence and the chromosome banding data?

IBIG’s Answers*
I freely admit that IBIG has (kinda) answered some of these, but I think it's best we start over (it was only 2 questions) and then we can move forward.  




Selected Quotes from IBIG that he should be held to

 
Quote

The evidence is not the prophecy of the old testament, but the precise fulfillment of that prophecy, these were not little vague prophecies. This is evidence that God did what He said that he would do. Evidence  that He does exist!
my emphasis


 
Quote

I’ll answer one now, but you are trying to change the subject.
It isn’t okay to lie for Jesus! It is never okay to lie!


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Henry J



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 01 2010,09:47   

[quote=fusilier,Nov. 01 2010,06:59]
Quote (OgreMkV @ Nov. 01 2010,08:01)
Quote (prong_hunter @ Nov. 01 2010,06:06)
{snip}

Arguing with IBIG is like arguing with a two-day old tuna sandwich.  You can scream all you want, it's still gonna stink.

I'll post my list of unanswered (mostly) questions in a bit.

May I nominate that for a Quip of the Week, if not POTW?

Absolutely!  :p

  
OgreMkV



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Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 01 2010,17:55   

Prediction verified.  He declared victory (more or less) and obviously feels that he has hit nerve with us.  One wonders what that nerve actually is, since he's the one that kept changing topics.

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prong_hunter



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Joined: May 2010

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 01 2010,17:58   

The record on Panda's Thumb is very interesting.

IBIG claims he is well-versed in God's logic.

He said this, "Let me ask everyone here, do you believe in the law of cause and effect?", June 25th in the PT thread ICR Hits A Snag.

When confronted with the fact that there is no "Law of Cause and Effect" in science, he simply ignores it and goes on in his unwavering, unshakable certainty.

When shown the error in his use of the response "there are no Absolutes" to prove there are absolutes, and thus God exits (they have to come from somewhere, right?), he simply ignores all appeals to formal logic - he knows better, don't confuse him with the facts.

The fact is that he cannot comprehend genuine scientific or logical arguments.  He's like a Taliban.

I can't imagine arguing with a Taliban, except that it must be like arguing with IBIG.

I will close with a few more choice quotes from Sept. 6th:
"The point of my little exercise on logic, is to demonstrate that logic will not work unless all facts are absolutely true," 9-6-10 BW282

"Logic is correct thinking, and the purpose of using logic is to find the truth, ..." 9-6-10 BW282

”… it is illogical to attempt to apply logic to see if God exists …” 9-6-10 BW282     (Holy Cow! Is this good, or what?)

  
paragwinn



Posts: 376
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 01 2010,19:00   

Quote (prong_hunter @ Oct. 31 2010,22:30)
IBIG said on Panda's Thumb, Sept. 4 2010:
<snip>

And on Sept. 7:
"I’ve not finished with logic yet, just wait and see!!! Be prepared!!!"

<snip>



--------------
All women build up a resistance [to male condescension]. Apparently, ID did not predict that. -Kristine 4-19-11
F/Ns to F/Ns to F/Ns etc. The whole thing is F/N ridiculous -Seversky on KF footnote fetish 8-20-11
The geological maps that realist use to make money are all surface maps. -forastero

  
mplavcan



Posts: 6
Joined: Oct. 2010

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 01 2010,19:06   

Looks like IBIG has declared victory. Now, if we all stay veeeeerrrrryyyy still, maybe it will go away.

  
mplavcan



Posts: 6
Joined: Oct. 2010

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 01 2010,19:25   

Quote (OgreMkV @ Nov. 01 2010,17:55)
Prediction verified.  He declared victory (more or less) and obviously feels that he has hit nerve with us.  One wonders what that nerve actually is, since he's the one that kept changing topics.

Whatever. He stands as a testimonial that there are people out there who are so calcified in their thinking that no evidence, no argument, no data, no documentation, not even written proof of their own illogic and hypocrisy, will convince them that they are wrong.

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3268
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 01 2010,21:24   

Quote (mplavcan @ Nov. 01 2010,19:25)
Quote (OgreMkV @ Nov. 01 2010,17:55)
Prediction verified.  He declared victory (more or less) and obviously feels that he has hit nerve with us.  One wonders what that nerve actually is, since he's the one that kept changing topics.

Whatever. He stands as a testimonial that there are people out there who are so calcified in their thinking that no evidence, no argument, no data, no documentation, not even written proof of their own illogic and hypocrisy, will convince them that they are wrong.

You aren't kidding.

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OgreMkV



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 02 2010,11:40   

hmm... IBIG is declaring victory and ignoring any requests to come here.

Who was it that said, he's looking for an audience?  

Of course, he doesn't want an audience of his fellow Christians since they will see what a lying hypocrite that he is.

To sum up: IBIG doesn't believe in the bible, nor he doesn't believe in science... yet he uses the trappings and tools of both to feed his own needy ego.

It's kind of sad really.  Ah well, I tried.

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prong_hunter



Posts: 45
Joined: May 2010

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 02 2010,11:43   

Quote (mplavcan @ Nov. 01 2010,19:25)
Whatever. He stands as a testimonial that there are people out there who are so calcified in their thinking that no evidence, no argument, no data, no documentation, not even written proof of their own illogic and hypocrisy, will convince them that they are wrong.

He stands for everything that was overcome by the Enlightenment.  

He stands for everything that is wrong with religion.  

He stands for everything that our Founding Fathers stopped cold when they mandated our Government favor no Religion.  (Isn't it funny, our Democracy isn't founded on Christian Principles of religion as the far-right revisionists insist, but upon the clear mandate of separation of Church and State.  The Fathers knew exactly what happens when theocrats take over government.)

He has never accepted one argument on Panda's Thumb. He has never been 'wrong'. He says he has never lied, even when shown documentation of such.

In short, IBIG stands for intolerance, intransigence, inflexibility and his brand of theocracy ("to Hell with all the rest").

That's why it's important to stand up to him.

Thanks for your efforts.

  
prong_hunter



Posts: 45
Joined: May 2010

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 03 2010,06:12   

I think IBIG may have resurfaced, with an alternate personality, named 'faith4flippers' on PT under the thread with the photo of the pelican.

He's goading Stanton, and making references to DS's dolphin arguments.  Anyone know how to contact them?

IBIG's not one to declare victory as he has, and fade quietly into the night.

  
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