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paragwinn



Posts: 376
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 23 2011,04:31   

Quote (forastero @ Oct. 23 2011,01:51)
Yep, fist sentence of your wiki eunuch says Eunuchs of old were typically castrated

which of coarse made them immune to testicular hernias

Evidently,  you didnt read much further. Eunuchs also included those who were impotent or celibate while still having testicles. And now with chemical castration, 'eunuchs' can still experience testicular hernias.

Your 'explanation' of sickle-cell anemia and enzyme-eating bacteria is weak just like your analogy.

--------------
All women build up a resistance [to male condescension]. Apparently, ID did not predict that. -Kristine 4-19-11
F/Ns to F/Ns to F/Ns etc. The whole thing is F/N ridiculous -Seversky on KF footnote fetish 8-20-11
The geological maps that realist use to make money are all surface maps. -forastero

  
jeannot



Posts: 1200
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 23 2011,04:35   

Quote (forastero @ Oct. 23 2011,03:40)
It wasnt just Cambrian explosions, but Ordovician explosions, Silurian explosion, Devonian explosions, carboniferous explosions, Triassic explosion, Jurassic explosion, Cretaceous explosion, Paleocene explosion, Eocene explosion, Oligocene  explosion, Miocene explosion,  Pleistocene explosions.

I'm not a paleontologist, but google doesn't find much about many of the "explosions" you list.
There are results about a "pleistocene explosion", which refer to a population expansion in humans.
So I am not sure how you interpret the term "explosion".

  
forastero



Posts: 458
Joined: Oct. 2011

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 23 2011,04:51   

Quote (jeannot @ Oct. 23 2011,04:18)
Quote (forastero @ Oct. 23 2011,02:55)
Jeannot, your first link concludes with: "While it is clear that a derived increase in Agouti expression leads to wider hair bands and lighter camouflaging color, whether and by which mechanism an amino acid deletion (a?Ser) leads to a change in gene expression and ultimately phenotypic evolution is still unknown. "

The other links all have abstracts about what seems to be phenotypic variation that no one here has an argument with

Moreover, the mice remain interbreeding mice, the butterflies remain interbreeding butterflies,the chiclids remain interbreeding cichlids, and the sticklebacks remain interbreeding sticklebacks  

What we are really really interested in are all these so called mutations that supposedly turn bacteria into something other than bacteria or fruit flies into something other than fruit flies

Thanks

Were you not arguing that mutations where merely "mistakes" which could not cause adaptation? The 4 papers I linked to show the contrary, even though some details may remain unknown.

On the other hand, would you quote an evolutionary biologist saying that a mutation should turn a bacterium into a non-bacterium (an eukaryote?), or a fruit fly into non-fruit fly? I'll wait.

You are intellectually dishonest.

Hmm well your abstracts actually dont tell us anything about  mutations do they; but how do you explain evolutionism's primordial soup to sea scorpions? Aliens maybe, Shiva and Vishnu?

  
paragwinn



Posts: 376
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 23 2011,04:52   

Quote (jeannot @ Oct. 23 2011,02:35)
Quote (forastero @ Oct. 23 2011,03:40)
It wasnt just Cambrian explosions, but Ordovician explosions, Silurian explosion, Devonian explosions, carboniferous explosions, Triassic explosion, Jurassic explosion, Cretaceous explosion, Paleocene explosion, Eocene explosion, Oligocene  explosion, Miocene explosion,  Pleistocene explosions.

I'm not a paleontologist, but google doesn't find much about many of the "explosions" you list.
There are results about a "pleistocene explosion", which refer to a population expansion in humans.
So I am not sure how you interpret the term "explosion".

forastero must be a big fan of director/producer Michael Bay (Transformers, Armegeddon, Bad Boys, Meat Loaf: Bat Out of Hell 2)

--------------
All women build up a resistance [to male condescension]. Apparently, ID did not predict that. -Kristine 4-19-11
F/Ns to F/Ns to F/Ns etc. The whole thing is F/N ridiculous -Seversky on KF footnote fetish 8-20-11
The geological maps that realist use to make money are all surface maps. -forastero

  
forastero



Posts: 458
Joined: Oct. 2011

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 23 2011,04:53   

Quote (paragwinn @ Oct. 23 2011,04:31)
Quote (forastero @ Oct. 23 2011,01:51)
Yep, fist sentence of your wiki eunuch says Eunuchs of old were typically castrated

which of coarse made them immune to testicular hernias

Evidently,  you didnt read much further. Eunuchs also included those who were impotent or celibate while still having testicles. And now with chemical castration, 'eunuchs' can still experience testicular hernias.

Your 'explanation' of sickle-cell anemia and enzyme-eating bacteria is weak just like your analogy.

You are welcome to add your own examples

Again, lots of Eunuchs are immune to scrotal hernias

  
jeannot



Posts: 1200
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 23 2011,04:55   

Mutations cannot be easily described in an abstract, no. An abstract is not suited for nucleotide sequence alignments.

And there is a difference between a single mutation and billions of mutations (and between evolution and abiogenesis as well).

Quote
how do you explain evolutionism's primordial soup to sea scorpions? Aliens maybe, Shiva and Vishnu?

Sounds like ID to me.  :)

  
forastero



Posts: 458
Joined: Oct. 2011

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 23 2011,04:56   

Quote (jeannot @ Oct. 23 2011,04:35)
Quote (forastero @ Oct. 23 2011,03:40)
It wasnt just Cambrian explosions, but Ordovician explosions, Silurian explosion, Devonian explosions, carboniferous explosions, Triassic explosion, Jurassic explosion, Cretaceous explosion, Paleocene explosion, Eocene explosion, Oligocene  explosion, Miocene explosion,  Pleistocene explosions.

I'm not a paleontologist, but google doesn't find much about many of the "explosions" you list.
There are results about a "pleistocene explosion", which refer to a population expansion in humans.
So I am not sure how you interpret the term "explosion".

Oh yeah they're all described but your high priest dont really like to think about them all that much

  
jeannot



Posts: 1200
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 23 2011,04:57   

Link to each one, please.
And evidence that they are ignored by evolutionary biologists.
I bet that whenever such "explosion" was described, it wasn't described first by a creationist.

  
forastero



Posts: 458
Joined: Oct. 2011

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 23 2011,05:03   

Quote (jeannot @ Oct. 23 2011,04:55)
Mutations cannot be easily described in an abstract, no. An abstract is not suited for nucleotide sequence alignments.

And there is a difference between a single mutation and billions of mutations (and between evolution and abiogenesis as well).

Quote
how do you explain evolutionism's primordial soup to sea scorpions? Aliens maybe, Shiva and Vishnu?

Sounds like ID to me.  :)

I am  really interested in your brand of evolution, for it seems different than the other members

  
forastero



Posts: 458
Joined: Oct. 2011

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 23 2011,05:04   

Quote (jeannot @ Oct. 23 2011,04:57)
Link to each one, please.
And evidence that they are ignored by evolutionary biologists.

Try google with these things " "

  
forastero



Posts: 458
Joined: Oct. 2011

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 23 2011,05:07   

Quote (jeannot @ Oct. 23 2011,04:57)
Link to each one, please.
And evidence that they are ignored by evolutionary biologists.
I bet that whenever such "explosion" was described, it wasn't described first by a creationist.

The evidence is that you havnt heard of them cant seem to find them

  
jeannot



Posts: 1200
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 23 2011,05:07   

So you have nothing? I thought so.

I think the ball is in your camp. What's your theory of evolution/creation? You were quite specific about the endocrine system. Tell us more about it.

  
jeannot



Posts: 1200
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 23 2011,05:11   

Quote
I am  really interested in your brand of evolution, for it seems different than the other members

Go read a textbook on evolutionary theory. The one by Mark Ridley is quite good.
You need to be familiar with general biology and genetics though.

  
forastero



Posts: 458
Joined: Oct. 2011

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 23 2011,05:12   

Hey how are you able to edit your posts? I have been trying to figure that out since I joined

  
jeannot



Posts: 1200
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 23 2011,05:15   

I don't think you are granted editing rights as a new member, but you can still ask the forum admin/moderator.

  
forastero



Posts: 458
Joined: Oct. 2011

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 23 2011,05:15   

Quote (jeannot @ Oct. 23 2011,05:11)
Quote
I am  really interested in your brand of evolution, for it seems different than the other members

Go read a textbook on evolutionary theory. The one by Mark Ridley is quite good.
You need to be familiar with general biology and genetics though.

but on the bottom of page 2, you alluded to the fact that mutations dont make bacteria evolve into anything beyond bacteria

  
forastero



Posts: 458
Joined: Oct. 2011

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 23 2011,05:20   

Quote (jeannot @ Oct. 23 2011,05:15)
I don't think you are granted editing rights as a new member, but you can still ask the forum admin/moderator.

Oh darn

but thanks

  
forastero



Posts: 458
Joined: Oct. 2011

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 23 2011,05:22   

Quote (jeannot @ Oct. 23 2011,05:11)
Quote
I am  really interested in your brand of evolution, for it seems different than the other members

Go read a textbook on evolutionary theory. The one by Mark Ridley is quite good.
You need to be familiar with general biology and genetics though.

Oh and I will check that book out

  
forastero



Posts: 458
Joined: Oct. 2011

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 23 2011,05:29   

Quote (paragwinn @ Oct. 23 2011,04:52)
Quote (jeannot @ Oct. 23 2011,02:35)
 
Quote (forastero @ Oct. 23 2011,03:40)
It wasnt just Cambrian explosions, but Ordovician explosions, Silurian explosion, Devonian explosions, carboniferous explosions, Triassic explosion, Jurassic explosion, Cretaceous explosion, Paleocene explosion, Eocene explosion, Oligocene  explosion, Miocene explosion,  Pleistocene explosions.

I'm not a paleontologist, but google doesn't find much about many of the "explosions" you list.
There are results about a "pleistocene explosion", which refer to a population expansion in humans.
So I am not sure how you interpret the term "explosion".

forastero must be a big fan of director/producer Michael Bay (Transformers, Armegeddon, Bad Boys, Meat Loaf: Bat Out of Hell 2)

Actually not really

  
jeannot



Posts: 1200
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 23 2011,06:28   

Quote (forastero @ Oct. 23 2011,05:15)
on the bottom of page 2, you alluded to the fact that mutations dont make bacteria evolve into anything beyond bacteria

I said    
Quote
would you quote an evolutionary biologist saying that a mutation should turn a bacterium into a non-bacterium (an eukaryote?), or a fruit fly into non-fruit fly?

in response to:
 
Quote
What we are really really interested in are all these so called mutations that supposedly turn bacteria into something other than bacteria or fruit flies into something other than fruit flies

So it wasn't clear whether you expected a single mutation to turn an organism into a completely different one.
Regarding the mutationS that turned non-fruit flies into fruit flies, they are the many mutationS that differentiate the genome of the common ancestor of fruit flies (Drosophila) from the genome of the common ancestor of [Drosophila and another non-fruit fly genus], assuming such ancestor would not be called "fruit fly". Needless to say, these mutation have accumulated in millions of years in the natural environment and are not expected to be reproduced in the lab during a scientist's lifetime. But researchers have found mutations governing specific phenotypes, wing patterns in particular.

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3259
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 23 2011,07:36   

Quote (forastero @ Oct. 23 2011,02:55)
Quote (jeannot @ Oct. 23 2011,02:12)
Other relevant reads for our guest:
adaptive allele in deer mice
alleles controlling mimmicry in butterflies
gene controlling armor plates and ecological adaptation in sticklebacks
opsin genes drive speciation in cichlid fishes

Jeannot, your first link concludes with: "While it is clear that a derived increase in Agouti expression leads to wider hair bands and lighter camouflaging color, whether and by which mechanism an amino acid deletion (a?Ser) leads to a change in gene expression and ultimately phenotypic evolution is still unknown. "

The other links all have abstracts about what seems to be phenotypic variation that no one here has an argument with

Moreover, the mice remain interbreeding mice, the butterflies remain interbreeding butterflies,the chiclids remain interbreeding cichlids, and the sticklebacks remain interbreeding sticklebacks  

What we are really really interested in are all these so called mutations that supposedly turn bacteria into something other than bacteria or fruit flies into something other than fruit flies

Thanks

Mutations, of course, which don't exist, nor are they expected to exist.

It's really quite offensive to have to say something several times.

No one expects fruit flies to turn into dogs, except creationists.

You may now stop using this strawman fallacy.

However, as I said, you have but to ask and anyone of us can provide dozens of papers, probably hundreds, of speciation events and I know of at least one genus change in a single generation.

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
OgreMkV



Posts: 3259
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 23 2011,07:52   

Quote (forastero @ Oct. 23 2011,03:40)
Again more so called pseudoempericism and to say that no kinds of radiometric contamination are alterations occurred in billions or even thousands of years is as ridiculous as saying dinosaur soft tissue can last millions of years.

And your first and only link is a bit broad wouldn’t you say? Thus, I just went to the first book and whata ya know. http://books.google.com/books?i....f=false

It wasnt just Cambrian explosions, but Ordovician explosions, Silurian explosion, Devonian explosions, carboniferous explosions, Triassic explosion, Jurassic explosion, Cretaceous explosion, Paleocene explosion, Eocene explosion, Oligocene  explosion, Miocene explosion,  Pleistocene explosions.

..and no good evidence for intermediates so your priests came up with super sun god powered punctuated equilibrium

You are making claims, then you need to support them.  Please provide evidence for you assertion that any of the fundamental forces in our universe have changed over time.  The mere fact that you are using a computer shows that this is wrong.

Further, astronomers can see backwards in time and observe that the fundamental forces of our universe are the same 13 billion years ago as the are now.  

You can just ignore the evidence, but it just makes you look like a dummy.   Sorry, but that's the way it is.

Now, as to the book... here's what it says in regards to an explosion:
Quote

The term 'Big Bang' implies some sort of explosion, which is a not wholly inappropriate analogy, except that the Big Bang was not an explosion in space, but an explosion of space.


So, what exploded?  It couldn't have been a thermonuclear explosion as you think since matter didn't exist at the time of the Big Bang.  It couldn't have been matter/anti-matter, etc.

Do you see that word 'analogy'?  A not wholly appropriate analogy.

You are making an argument about AN ANALOGY.  This is just another strawman argument and has absolutely nothing to do with reality.

Tell you what, I know that you won't, but why don't you tell me what the Cambrian explosion is.  In your own words, describe what exploded and when and how. Go ahead, describe in detail.

Then you bring up an entirely new argument (typical of creationists) without satisfactorily completing any of the prior arguments.  Intermediates?

There are thousands of peer-reviewed articles showing intermediates.  Heck, you are an intermediate between your parents and your children.  Duh.

Now, let's see what do we need from you:

define homozygous
define heterozygous
describe the Cambrian explosion
define symmetry breaking (as relates to the begining of the universe)
hyper-inflation
describe the endocrine notion of phenotype selection
define phenotype (include the other common -type and define that as well)
explain why you insist that evolution requires something that no scientist requires (fruit flies to dogs)
define species
show that mutation always results in the loss of genetic information (show the math and define information while you are at it)
evidence that the four fundamental forces of our universe change over time

And now you want to talk about intermediates?

Gish Gallop on!

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
OgreMkV



Posts: 3259
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 23 2011,07:54   

Quote (paragwinn @ Oct. 23 2011,04:31)
Quote (forastero @ Oct. 23 2011,01:51)
Yep, fist sentence of your wiki eunuch says Eunuchs of old were typically castrated

which of coarse made them immune to testicular hernias

Evidently,  you didnt read much further. Eunuchs also included those who were impotent or celibate while still having testicles. And now with chemical castration, 'eunuchs' can still experience testicular hernias.

Your 'explanation' of sickle-cell anemia and enzyme-eating bacteria is weak just like your analogy.

So removing the testicles means you are immune to testicular hernias... that makes sense (forastero still doesn't though).

What about any of the other types of hernias?  Would removal of the testicles prevent those as well?

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
OgreMkV



Posts: 3259
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 23 2011,07:57   

Quote (forastero @ Oct. 23 2011,04:51)
Quote (jeannot @ Oct. 23 2011,04:18)
Quote (forastero @ Oct. 23 2011,02:55)
Jeannot, your first link concludes with: "While it is clear that a derived increase in Agouti expression leads to wider hair bands and lighter camouflaging color, whether and by which mechanism an amino acid deletion (a?Ser) leads to a change in gene expression and ultimately phenotypic evolution is still unknown. "

The other links all have abstracts about what seems to be phenotypic variation that no one here has an argument with

Moreover, the mice remain interbreeding mice, the butterflies remain interbreeding butterflies,the chiclids remain interbreeding cichlids, and the sticklebacks remain interbreeding sticklebacks  

What we are really really interested in are all these so called mutations that supposedly turn bacteria into something other than bacteria or fruit flies into something other than fruit flies

Thanks

Were you not arguing that mutations where merely "mistakes" which could not cause adaptation? The 4 papers I linked to show the contrary, even though some details may remain unknown.

On the other hand, would you quote an evolutionary biologist saying that a mutation should turn a bacterium into a non-bacterium (an eukaryote?), or a fruit fly into non-fruit fly? I'll wait.

You are intellectually dishonest.

Hmm well your abstracts actually dont tell us anything about  mutations do they; but how do you explain evolutionism's primordial soup to sea scorpions? Aliens maybe, Shiva and Vishnu?

And yet, another new topic of discussion.

You really do not want to argue origins of life chemistry with me, child.

Why don't we stick to the list of things we have and finish those up, hmmm?

Tell you what though, I'll add OOL to our list for discussion later.

BUT

We have forgotten a major component of our discussion.  Let's play a little game, shall we.

OK, evolution is no more.  What replaces it?  What evidence do you have for what replaces it?  What tools, processes, and knowledge come from what replaces it?

I know the answer, do you?

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
Quack



Posts: 1746
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 23 2011,08:34   

Quote (forastero @ Oct. 21 2011,11:37)
Mutations are genetic mistakes or accidents that didnt get fixed by by genetic repair mechanisms

It is great that you accept mutations as a fact. It doesn't matter whether you like mutations; they are essential for life as we know it.

Do you have any idea about what life on this planet might have been without mutations? We wouldn't be here, that's for sure!

--------------
YEC creationists denigrate science without an inkling of what their lives would be without it. YEC creationism is an enrageous, abominable insult to the the human intellect.
                                                         Me.

  
Quack



Posts: 1746
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 23 2011,08:45   

Quote (forastero @ Oct. 23 2011,05:12)
Hey how are you able to edit your posts? I have been trying to figure that out since I joined

You wouldn’t be regretting you wrote:
 
Quote
It wasnt just Cambrian explosions, but Ordovician explosions, Silurian explosion, Devonian explosions, carboniferous explosions, Triassic explosion, Jurassic explosion, Cretaceous explosion, Paleocene explosion, Eocene explosion, Oligocene  explosion, Miocene explosion,  Pleistocene explosions
?

--------------
YEC creationists denigrate science without an inkling of what their lives would be without it. YEC creationism is an enrageous, abominable insult to the the human intellect.
                                                         Me.

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3259
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 23 2011,09:21   

Quote (Quack @ Oct. 23 2011,08:45)
Quote (forastero @ Oct. 23 2011,05:12)
Hey how are you able to edit your posts? I have been trying to figure that out since I joined

You wouldn’t be regretting you wrote:
   
Quote
It wasnt just Cambrian explosions, but Ordovician explosions, Silurian explosion, Devonian explosions, carboniferous explosions, Triassic explosion, Jurassic explosion, Cretaceous explosion, Paleocene explosion, Eocene explosion, Oligocene  explosion, Miocene explosion,  Pleistocene explosions
?

Probably more regretting the "endocrine system determines phenotype" think.

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
Tracy P. Hamilton



Posts: 1234
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 23 2011,10:22   

Quote (forastero @ Oct. 22 2011,12:52)
 
Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Oct. 22 2011,03:26)
The request of "evidence please" was made in a context that "forastero" ignores:

   
Quote

ID--superior designer made order from disorder


The quotes from Einstein are opinion, not evidence. In fact, the repeated theme of "deeply emotional conviction" is a big clue that even Einstein was aware that he wasn't offering evidence. Of course, people used to proof-texting get quite confused when running into a scientific discussion where quoting an authority's opinion doesn't further an argument.

Wesley, I misread that question but partly because I already provided evidence with the  big bang  (from chaos) quotes and the image of earth (order) that I posted above.



Actually you engaged in EPIC FAIL.  The entropy (disorder) of the universe has been increasing since the big bang (chaos) to a universe now containing the earth (order). Your argument is self-contradictory, though you are so ignorant you don't know the trivial misunderstanding that when addressed gives the solution.

You do not understand thermodynamics (or anything else) above 10 year old level, and evidently your superior designer is no more superior than the force of gravity, which explains the formation of the earth (order) from a dust cloud (chaos).

--------------
"Following what I just wrote about fitness, you’re taking refuge in what we see in the world."  PaV

"The simple equation F = MA leads to the concept of four-dimensional space." GilDodgen

"We have no brain, I don't, for thinking." Robert Byers

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 23 2011,10:39   

Quote (forastero @ Oct. 23 2011,06:12)
Hey how are you able to edit your posts? I have been trying to figure that out since I joined

at the rate you are going you might as well forget about it

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 23 2011,10:41   

I AM TWO STOPID TOO UNDERSTAND TIHNGS YOU EXPLAIN TWO ME ABOUT THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN HAIRLESS DOGS AND GOO TO YOU SO JESUS WIN FUCK OFF ATHIEST

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
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