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  Topic: The Skeptical Zone, with Lizzie< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
Febble



Posts: 310
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 25 2012,17:33   

I take your point.

I still think the notion that if something is shown to be not-quite-right that doesn't necessarily mean it is All Wrong is not intuitive.

At the very least, Asimov's essay, The Relativity of Wrong, should be compulsory reading in all schools.[I]

  
Febble



Posts: 310
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 25 2012,17:34   

BTW, the comment editor is broken, and everyone is waiting for an update.

There is a workaround, though, that works in Firefox at least - if you right-click on the edit link, and open in a new tab or window, you get an edit window that seems to work OK.

But I hope they will fix the pop-up window soon.  I can't find another comment editor that works.

  
BWE



Posts: 1896
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 26 2012,01:47   

What is the link to the forum? I am havind several internet problems lately. But i got a friend request

--------------
Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered
When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it
Look what it's done so far

The Daily Wingnut

   
sledgehammer



Posts: 531
Joined: Sep. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 26 2012,02:34   

http://theskepticalzone.com/wp....w....p....wp

ETA   clip off the ellipses after the first /wp

Edited by sledgehammer on Feb. 26 2012,00:37

--------------
The majority of the stupid is invincible and guaranteed for all time. The terror of their tyranny is alleviated by their lack of consistency. -A. Einstein (H/T, JAD)
If evolution is true, you could not know that it's true because your brain is nothing but chemicals. ?Think about that. -K. Hovind

  
Stephen Elliott



Posts: 1754
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 26 2012,03:25   

Quote (Febble @ Feb. 25 2012,05:39)
 
Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Feb. 25 2012,03:16)
Quote (Febble @ Feb. 24 2012,04:45)
That doesn't make it not interesting :)

But he actually has a good point. Most ID proponents don't understand the science, and, to be fair, most ID skeptics don't understand evolutionary theory all that well either.

Most of us simply do not have the expertise to critique the relevant science, but we are happy to refer to scientific authority because we are not anti-science.


There is a real assymmetry, but I don't think that's where it lies.

And boy is there tribalism. That, IMO, is how people like Santorum or Bachmann can get away with endorsing ID. Most people don't have the expertise to see what's wrong with it, nor the expertise to understand the scientific counter-view.

Maybe, but you don't have to understand scientific publications to know which side has the evidence. It is fairly simple (if you actually look) to see that science is based on trying to explain data, ID is just saying that science is hard/not certain etc. Therefore God!

Do you think that ID has anything of substance? I don't.

No, I don't, but that's because I have enough expertise to recognise that.

I have no expertise, all my education has been authoritative. Yet it is fairly easy to see that ID is nonsense. Anyone arguing pro-ID after several years is clearly not looking at any evidence they do not like.

BTW, I started out as pro-ID. It did not take long to see who had rhetoric and who had evidence. It does not require lots of education/intelligence/training to judge, just a genuine desire to learn.

I do not believe that any long-time ID supporters actually want to learn.

  
k.e..



Posts: 2924
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 26 2012,07:17   

Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Feb. 26 2012,11:25)
Quote (Febble @ Feb. 25 2012,05:39)
Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Feb. 25 2012,03:16)
 
Quote (Febble @ Feb. 24 2012,04:45)
That doesn't make it not interesting :)

But he actually has a good point. Most ID proponents don't understand the science, and, to be fair, most ID skeptics don't understand evolutionary theory all that well either.

Most of us simply do not have the expertise to critique the relevant science, but we are happy to refer to scientific authority because we are not anti-science.


There is a real assymmetry, but I don't think that's where it lies.

And boy is there tribalism. That, IMO, is how people like Santorum or Bachmann can get away with endorsing ID. Most people don't have the expertise to see what's wrong with it, nor the expertise to understand the scientific counter-view.

Maybe, but you don't have to understand scientific publications to know which side has the evidence. It is fairly simple (if you actually look) to see that science is based on trying to explain data, ID is just saying that science is hard/not certain etc. Therefore God!

Do you think that ID has anything of substance? I don't.

No, I don't, but that's because I have enough expertise to recognise that.

I have no expertise, all my education has been authoritative. Yet it is fairly easy to see that ID is nonsense. Anyone arguing pro-ID after several years is clearly not looking at any evidence they do not like.

BTW, I started out as pro-ID. It did not take long to see who had rhetoric and who had evidence. It does not require lots of education/intelligence/training to judge, just a genuine desire to learn.

I do not believe that any long-time ID supporters actually want to learn.

PHHHT .................BELIEF IS THAT ADAM & EVE WERE THE FIRST 2 PEOPLE ON EARTH.

ID SUPPORTERS ARE JUST STUPID .....WHICH STRANGELY ENOUGH MEANS/IS THAT THEY CAN'T LEARN, EVEN IF THEY WANTED TO.

ID ...IT'S LIKE OBSERVING A FREAK SHOW.

YOU KNOW IT'S WRONG BUT WHAT THE HELL, IF PEOPLE ARE PAYING MONEY TOO SEE IT, THEN THERE'S NO HARM. RIGHT?

GIVEN THAT THEY HAVE OSSIFIED INTO A GRAVEYARD OF TEH SMALL IDEAS OUTSIDE OF SOME CREEPY SMALL TOWN IN TEH CONFEDERACY SHOULDN'T WE GIVE THEM A FINAL SEND OFF......WITH COLLECTABLES?


IF THEY COME BACK YOU'LL GET YOUR GOD BACK, ALL YOUR TITHES, YOUR VIRGINITY AND YOUR PET CAT...JUST THE SAME AS IF YOU PLAYED A COUNTRY AND WESTERN RECORD BACKWARDS

AMEN

--------------
"I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his clown DaveTard suit" dogdidit
"Abbie Smith (ERV) who's got to be the most obnoxious arrogant snot I've ever seen except for when I look in a mirror" DAVE TARD
"ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus

  
Quack



Posts: 1772
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 26 2012,07:30   

Quote
I do not believe that any long-time ID supporters actually want to learn.
Because it would be like a pact with the devil.

--------------
The first principle is that you must not fool yourself — and you are the easiest person to fool.
                                                                                               Richard Feynman

  
Woodbine



Posts: 788
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 26 2012,08:20   

Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Feb. 26 2012,09:25)
I do not believe that any long-time ID supporters actually want to learn.

I think the main problem is that they already believe that God 'did it', and therefore the idea that ID could be advancing unsound arguments just does not compute.

Take Denyse O'Leary; she's your typical ID shill. Denyse already believes life was intelligently designed but she demonstrably has not the crudest understanding of the arguments of Behe or Dembski etc.

And because she does not understand the arguments for ID she does not understand the criticism being levelled against ID. And because she doesn't understand the only interpretation she can put on it is that the criticism levelled against ID arguments must therefore be politically or ideologically motivated.

  
NormOlsen



Posts: 104
Joined: Nov. 2011

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 26 2012,11:39   

Quote (Woodbine @ Feb. 26 2012,08:20)
And because she doesn't understand the only interpretation she can put on it is that the criticism levelled against ID arguments must therefore be politically or ideologically motivated.


It's worse than that. She is so ideologically entrenched that she can't even entertain the notion that others might not be similarly motivated. For her it's ideology all the way down.

  
MichaelJ



Posts: 455
Joined: June 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 26 2012,15:19   

I also don't think that you need a scientific education to see that ID is vacuous. Prior to Dover the commonest complaint on PT was that the MSM was too much he said-she said when they reported on ID. Once the case started this quickly changed to ridicule and now except for some Fox pundits they don't even bother reporting on it.

I come here for 2 reasons:
1. The unintended humour of the UDists and the intended humour of the ATBCers.
2. To try to understand their psychology. What goes on in their brains. Why would Gil come onto Liz's site and say that he could prove that evolution was impossible using basic probability not provide the calculation and flounce out using the insults as an excuse.

Now what are the options:
1. He is completely unhinged and planned it all ahead of time.
2. He thought he had the devastating proof when he made the claim. As this was the first time anybody asked him to provide it, he realised that it was puerile and looked for any excuse to run away from the site.
3. His subconcious protecting him from reality led him to think that he actually did provide the proof and he was insulted that everybody on the site weren't instantly converted and flounced out.

I'd be interested in Liz's opinion on she thinks happened.  For Gil I tend towards number 3. People like Joe I think tend towards number 2. That is he KNOWS that ID is correct but also know where the evidence lies. Joe thinks that for now he can confuse matters by throwing dung around and maybe one day somebody will find some evidence for ID.

  
socle



Posts: 272
Joined: July 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 26 2012,16:22   

Quote (MichaelJ @ Feb. 26 2012,15:19)
Now what are the options:
1. He is completely unhinged and planned it all ahead of time.
2. He thought he had the devastating proof when he made the claim. As this was the first time anybody asked him to provide it, he realised that it was puerile and looked for any excuse to run away from the site.
3. His subconcious protecting him from reality led him to think that he actually did provide the proof and he was insulted that everybody on the site weren't instantly converted and flounced out.

Can we vote too?

I don't know what to say about Gil. I get the impression he thinks of himself as always being the smartest guy in the room, and that he just doesn't need to defend his claims, because, well, he's Gil Dodgen.

Regarding the phenomenon of Joe G, I think these two factors key:

1) He doesn't care about the truth. All that matters is winning the argument.

2) He is completely unaware of how badly he loses every argument he enters.

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 26 2012,16:31   

Quote (socle @ Feb. 26 2012,17:22)
2) He is completely unaware of how badly he loses every argument he enters.

and deliciously so



that makes my innernets

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell.Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
MichaelJ



Posts: 455
Joined: June 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 26 2012,17:11   

Quote (socle @ Feb. 27 2012,07:22)


I don't know what to say about Gil. I get the impression he thinks of himself as always being the smartest guy in the room, and that he just doesn't need to defend his claims, because, well, he's Gil Dodgen.


Which basically says '2' as he must not be conscious of not being able to back up his claims.

Edited by MichaelJ on Feb. 27 2012,08:22

  
Occam's Aftershave



Posts: 1492
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 26 2012,17:46   

Quote (socle @ Feb. 26 2012,16:22)


Regarding the phenomenon of Joe G, I think these two factors key:

1) He doesn't care about the truth. All that matters is winning the argument.

2) He is completely unaware of how badly he loses every argument he enters.

Right now Lizzie's Guano page has 120 posts.

41 of those are from Joe G.

Next closest is olegt with 11.

'nuff said.

--------------
JoeG: And by eating the cake you are consuming the information- some stays with you and the rest is waste.

  
Febble



Posts: 310
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 26 2012,18:35   

Well, I seem to have inadvertently deleted the entire site.

Hope to have a backup up shortly.

Yikes.

  
sledgehammer



Posts: 531
Joined: Sep. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 26 2012,18:43   

Whew! I was just posting a reply when it went down. I thought I broke it.

ETA: Fortunately,I've learned from experience to compose my posts in a text document, and then cut-n-paste into the post edit window.

Edited by sledgehammer on Feb. 26 2012,16:48

--------------
The majority of the stupid is invincible and guaranteed for all time. The terror of their tyranny is alleviated by their lack of consistency. -A. Einstein (H/T, JAD)
If evolution is true, you could not know that it's true because your brain is nothing but chemicals. ?Think about that. -K. Hovind

  
Febble



Posts: 310
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 26 2012,19:04   

I can't believe I managed to be so stupid.  Or how unfoolproof the thing is!

OK, I need a sysadmin....

  
olegt



Posts: 1387
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 26 2012,19:09   

That's a pity. The forum became quite popular. But, Liz, even if much of it is gone, we will repopulate the site again.

--------------
If you are not:
Galapagos Finch
please Logout

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 10232
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 26 2012,19:17   

Quote (olegt @ Feb. 26 2012,19:09)
That's a pity. The forum became quite popular. But, Liz, even if much of it is gone, we will repopulate the site again.

JUST LIEK TEH FLUD

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3324
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 26 2012,19:25   

Quote (Febble @ Feb. 26 2012,19:04)
I can't believe I managed to be so stupid. Or how unfoolproof the thing is!

OK, I need a sysadmin....

Sure. I believe you. NOT!

You are just trying to hide the simple probability calculations that Gil used to show how evolution can't create sophisticated information processing machines!  

Damn materialist!  *shakes fist*

--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it. We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
dhogaza



Posts: 525
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 26 2012,19:31   

Quote (Febble @ Feb. 26 2012,19:04)
I can't believe I managed to be so stupid. Or how unfoolproof the thing is!

OK, I need a sysadmin....

Quote
OK, I need a sysadmin....


Gil's a self-appointed software engineering genius.

Surely he can help!

(sarc off)

  
Febble



Posts: 310
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 26 2012,19:43   

There was a backup up till Saturday, and it should be back online (minus posts since then) in a few hours.

I'll be sorry to have lost all those interesting comments to my Conching posts, but I've got the original backed up, and Gregory probably has his.

Life will go on....

  
NormOlsen



Posts: 104
Joined: Nov. 2011

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 26 2012,20:21   

Quote (Febble @ Feb. 26 2012,19:43)
There was a backup up till Saturday, and it should be back online (minus posts since then) in a few hours.

I'll be sorry to have lost all those interesting comments to my Conching posts, but I've got the original backed up, and Gregory probably has his.

Life will go on....


No worries, we'll be back! :)

  
Seversky



Posts: 415
Joined: June 2010

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 26 2012,20:23   

Quote (Febble @ Feb. 26 2012,18:35)
Well, I seem to have inadvertently deleted the entire site.

Hope to have a backup up shortly.

Yikes.

You mean all those pearls from Gil, Joe and Greg are gone?

Well, that's...unfortunate.
:)

  
Ptaylor



Posts: 889
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 26 2012,20:50   

Quote (Febble @ Feb. 27 2012,12:43)
There was a backup up till Saturday, and it should be back online (minus posts since then) in a few hours.

I'll be sorry to have lost all those interesting comments to my Conching posts, but I've got the original backed up, and Gregory probably has his.

Life will go on....

If it helps I have tabs still open with the front page and the Good arguments and straw men thread. They were opened not long before the crash. Nothing else, though. I've copied them to Word - let me know if you want them.

--------------
To surrender to ignorance and call it God has always been premature, and it remains premature today. - Isaac Asimov

"Grow up, assface" - Joe G., grown up ID spokesperson, Sandwalk, April 2014

  
sledgehammer



Posts: 531
Joined: Sep. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 27 2012,01:15   

It appears to be back up again.   Only obvious post missing is Conch

--------------
The majority of the stupid is invincible and guaranteed for all time. The terror of their tyranny is alleviated by their lack of consistency. -A. Einstein (H/T, JAD)
If evolution is true, you could not know that it's true because your brain is nothing but chemicals. ?Think about that. -K. Hovind

  
dvunkannon



Posts: 1377
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 27 2012,12:17   

Quote
Joe G:
Hi David vun Kannon,

Look if you really want to rape a chimp I will not hold it against you...

Sorry, Joe, you're not my type.


Quote
David vun Kannon: Sorry, Joe, you're not my type.

Can't rape the willing anyway


Gaydar fail by Joe G!

--------------
Im referring to evolution, not changes in allele frequencies. - Cornelius Hunter
Im not an evolutionist, Im a change in allele frequentist! - Nakashima

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 10232
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 27 2012,12:45   

Quote (dvunkannon @ Feb. 27 2012,12:17)
Quote
Joe G:
Hi David vun Kannon,

Look if you really want to rape a chimp I will not hold it against you...

Sorry, Joe, you're not my type.


 
Quote
David vun Kannon: Sorry, Joe, you're not my type.

Can't rape the willing anyway


Gaydar fail by Joe G!

I hope he's not gay. Them poor homosexualists have a hard enough time without having Joe on their books..

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Robin



Posts: 1430
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 27 2012,13:57   

Man...was I born under a bad sign or something? I posted at TSZ about 5 minutes ago and now the site is gone. What gives?

--------------
we IDists rule in design for the flagellum and cilium largely because they do look designed. Bilbo

The only reason you reject Thor is because, like a cushion, you bear the imprint of the biggest arse that sat on you. Louis

  
Febble



Posts: 310
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 27 2012,14:45   

I don't know,  I don't think it was my fault this time. I've put in a support request.

  
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